Ultrabook makers 'testing the water' with initial shipments under 50k - report - Page 2

Originally Posted by Firefly7475

I challenge you to actually think about it for yourselves.

Intel are throwing absolutely everything they have behind Ultrabooks.

They are creating reference designs for OEMs, trying to reduce the build costs, putting $300m into research grants and offering CPU discounts.

All this and the OEM's are hesitant to follow Intel's lead.

Even with the big bunch of carrots Intel is dangling in front of the OEM's all they are willing to do is "test the water".

So we know the OEM's aren't really a part of this push. We also know Microsoft aren't anywhere to be seen.

That leaves Intel, making a move that threatens to piss off Apple by ripping off their designs and helping their competitors, all so Intel can make less money (because of the above mentioned discounts and incentives) than they would if they just let Apple go ahead and sell more MacBook Air's.

At this point I'm going to assume you've realized we're dealing in shades of grey on this one so I'll say again, I challenge you to actually think about it for yourselves.

Originally Posted by freckledbruh

From my understanding, the OEMs asked for even further discounts to which Intel said, "Hell no!" I think that Intel wants the OEMs to move away from the race to the bottom for their own good (HP anyone?) and also to stave off any thoughts of moving to ARM since Microsoft is now porting Windows 8 to ARM.

Originally Posted by cvaldes1831

This is a grim omen.

First of all, this reflects the basic fact that the Windows PC market isn't really receptive to this category. Dell's Adamo was a commercial failure and PC manufacturers are well aware of that.

....

Secondly, these PC manufacturers are probably wary of another TouchPad debacle.
Have Windows PC manufacturers painted themselves into a shitty, low-margin unsatisfying corner where their main competitor innovates, generates high customer satisfaction and walks away with the lion's share of the industry's profits?

Originally Posted by cvaldes1831

This is a grim omen.
. . .
Have Windows PC manufacturers painted themselves into a shitty, low-margin unsatisfying corner where their main competitor innovates, generates high customer satisfaction and walks away with the lion's share of the industry's profits?

Originally Posted by jragosta

ARM is really not the major threat that Intel faces. AMD is a far bigger concern at this point.

Originally Posted by Firefly7475

I challenge you to actually think about it for yourselves.

Originally Posted by Firefly7475

I challenge you to actually think about it for yourselves

Originally Posted by Firefly7475

Ultrabooks are not a response to Apple.

Originally Posted by whatisgoingon

[making a device that costs $1000, while not losing money on it] "This is the major reason why we do not believe that the ultrabook segment is really going to take off until next year."

What exactly will happen next year that will change the situation? Apple still will be able to beat everybody on costs due to their volume, not having to pay the Windows tax, and having more flexibility in being able to design the computer. And Intel will get a swift kick by Apple and/or the FTC if they try to sell chips to Apple's competitors for less than they will sell those chips to Apple...

Originally Posted by fuwafuwa

After netbook, they try ultra-netbook. Nice try.

Originally Posted by Blastdoor

Some of these MBA knockoffs actually look pretty good. But even if they can compete on price with apple they will flop for one simple reason -- PC users are tasteless cheapskates who look only at hz, bytes, and $. They will never pay more than $500 for a computer.

Originally Posted by ChiA

I've noticed one or two people buying Airs simply to run Windows without OS X - a waste, they should at least keep Bootcamp.

These Ultrabook competitors will need to either price cheaper than an equivalent Air and Windows licence together, or produce machines superior in spec to a Macbook Air.

I suspect those who try will omit Thunderbolt and thus fail.

Originally Posted by FuturePastNow

They hope component prices will come down... specifically SSDs and next-gen Intel processors, and probably displays to a lesser extent.

I don't think ultrabooks will sell in large volume. The average selling price of a PC is under $700, and without a low-end model that cheap, they're doomed to a niche market. The only non-Apple computers that can command high prices are extremely powerful machines like high-end workstations and gaming rigs.

Originally Posted by Smallwheels

I haven't read any of the specifications of the new Ultrabooks. I hope they do well and are priced lower than the Mac Books. I'm looking for features as well as chip speed. The Toshiba has an ethernet port. I like that. It will make it easier to connect to my modem. It also has HDMI. If I ever buy another computer with Windows it will definitely become a dual boot with a distribution of Linux which will be my main OS on it.

Originally Posted by Firefly7475

Ultrabooks are not a response to Apple.

Originally Posted by Firefly7475

I challenge you to actually think about it for yourselves.

Intel are throwing absolutely everything they have behind Ultrabooks.

.....

That leaves Intel, making a move that threatens to piss off Apple by ripping off their designs and helping their competitors, all so Intel can make less money (because of the above mentioned discounts and incentives) than they would if they just let Apple go ahead and sell more MacBook Air's.

At this point I'm going to assume you've realized we're dealing in shades of grey on this one so I'll say again, I challenge you to actually think about it for yourselves.

Originally Posted by ChiA

I suspect those who try will omit Thunderbolt and thus fail.

Originally Posted by herbapou

lol I have yet to see anything using thunderbolt at a retail store... I think its worst than firewire was.

Originally Posted by herbapou

lol I have yet to see anything using thunderbolt at a retail store... I think its worst than firewire was.

Originally Posted by Firefly7475

The threat from ARM to Intel's existence will ensure it (even if Intel have to start manufacturing the damn things themselves )

Originally Posted by solipsism

You do realize it's only been 6 months since Thunderbolt was first announced to the world, right? Apple is just now getting ready to roll out their Thunderbolt-equipped displays and still haven't added it to every Mac being sold. If at CES 2012 there are no vendors supporting Thunderbolt you can worry. If at CES 2013 there are no vendors supporting Thunderbolt then you call it dead.


PS: This mentality that it's competing with USB therefore it will end up being like FireWire is the most ridiculous, ignorant, and irrational argument I've read on these forums in a long time and that's saying something considering MacRulez and Galbi are frequent posters.

Originally Posted by MaroonMushroom

So apple things that they will carry the entire interface on their back again like they tried to do with firewire? There's a reason mobos these days don't have it. Nobody wants to develop devices for it.

USB 3.0 is perfectly backwards compatible with all USB 2.0 devices. Thats good news, because there are vast quantities of USB 2.0 devices still on the shelves, including newer and older models. Plus, its unlikely that users will want to get rid of their existing USB 2.0 devices before their lifespan has expired. USB 3.0 makes it a smooth transition.

Thunderbolt is striclty an Intel technolgoy, meaning you wont be able to find a Thunderbolt port on a computer thats based on AMD chipsets or other off-brand CPUs. That may be a factor, now that the market has somewhat cooled in its preference for Intel over AMD.

So if Apple keeps bitching about Intel and switches to AMD? Then what happens? No Apple support. Now I know that Apple wouldn't dare switch to AMD for CPUs, but it's definitely a factor for non Apple Products, and these non Apple products are what shapes the market in terms of other devices.

But seriously, the USB 2.0 backwards compatibility will kill it alone.

Originally Posted by cvaldes1831

This is a grim omen... Have Windows PC manufacturers painted themselves into a shitty, low-margin unsatisfying corner where their main competitor innovates, generates high customer satisfaction and walks away with the lion's share of the industry's profits?

Originally Posted by FuturePastNow

They hope component prices will come down... specifically SSDs and next-gen Intel processors, and probably displays to a lesser extent.

I don't think ultrabooks will sell in large volume. The average selling price of a PC is under $700, and without a low-end model that cheap, they're doomed to a niche market. The only non-Apple computers that can command high prices are extremely powerful machines like high-end workstations and gaming rigs.

Originally Posted by cvaldes1831

You mentioned nothing about competitors and their tablet pricing. Apple released a premium-priced tablet.

Originally Posted by herbapou

lol I have yet to see anything using thunderbolt at a retail store... I think its worst than firewire was.

Originally Posted by whatisgoingon

Sure, but component pricing will come down for everybody, including Apple.

So next year, they'll be able to make a $1000 MacBookAir clone [as they don't seem to be able to do so now and still make any kind of profit, let alone the kind of profit Apple makes]. Next years MacBookAir for $1000 will still be better. Maybe several years from now they can make a something like a MacBookAir that's cheaper than Apple [same form factor, cheaper components], but it'll still be fat profits for Intel and Microsoft, not much for anybody else [other than Apple].

Originally Posted by solipsism

There are several vendors that are releasing Ultrabooks starting at the $1000 price point. These are even the 13" models, not the 11" model Apple sells for $999, so they are getting a leg up with Intel's help. That doesn't guarantee they will be successful or profitable per unit at this point, but they are getting competitive.

Originally Posted by xsu

They would increase their competitiveness if they make their machine hardware compatible with Mac Air. At least just use the same major hardwares. That should attract the hackintosh crowd.

Originally Posted by xsu

They would increase their competitiveness if they make their machine hardware compatible with Mac Air. At least just use the same major hardwares. That should attract the hackintosh crowd.

Originally Posted by solipsism

They are using the same basic ULV/LV CPU architecture, a milled aluminium chassis, chicklet keyboard and large glass trackpad. Remember when all these things were deemed pointless features, over-engineering and/or or bad features? I do.

Originally Posted by cvaldes1831

This is a grim omen.

First of all, this reflects the basic fact that the Windows PC market isn't really receptive to this category. Dell's Adamo was a commercial failure and PC manufacturers are well aware of that.

Secondly, these PC manufacturers are probably wary of another TouchPad debacle. HP cancelled their media tablet shortly after launch, sold off channel inventory at liquidation prices, then apparently had their manufacturing partners build more units to soak up parts already committed in various supply contracts.

Lastly, there are no volume discounts for such small production runs. They aren't releasing millions of MacBook Airs. Apple has benefited from leveraging their iDevice supply chain mastery to Mac production. Most Windows PC manufacturers have no significant smartphone/media tablet business and can't reap the benefits of massive contracts for things like NAND flash memory and LCD panels.

Frankly, I'm not sure if PC buyers will make this a viable category. It may end up being like the iPad/non-iPad conundrum where buyers will pay a thousand bucks for a MacBook Air, but won't pay more than five hundred or six for a similar Windows PC. The HP TouchPad showed that the marketplace accepts the iPad at one price point and everything else is devalued.

This looks like another PC Bataan Death March, a gruesome drive to the bottom. Someone should be able to compete with Apple's MacBook Air, but it will be with razor thin margins. We already know that Windows PC users rate lower than Mac users in terms of customer satisfaction. Apparently paying the "Apple tax" isn't such a hindrance to user satisfaction.

At this point one must ask the question, "If saving money is such a big deal why aren't Windows PC users happier?" Acer's management apparently took a deep look, fired their CEO, and basically admitted that their whole low-margin/we'll-make-it-up-on-volume business model was crap and a poor return on investment for their shareholders.

Have Windows PC manufacturers painted themselves into a shitty, low-margin unsatisfying corner where their main competitor innovates, generates high customer satisfaction and walks away with the lion's share of the industry's profits?

Originally Posted by benanderson89

This is the problem. They are all following one ultrabook specification, so all these manufacturers will be putting out the same product with the same insides at different price points with slightly varying case designs. At the end of the day, buyers are all going to turn around and go "if they are all the same price and the same specs, why not get an Apple and enjoy the premium market brand?"

Not even released yet and the PC makers are commoditising the market already.

Originally Posted by solipsism

True, and that will lead to the same fight for the bottom that is seen with Windows and Android vendors, but I don't see another option for them if they are going to compete with Apple's economy of scale. Intel needs them to use their ULV/LV Core chips and they needed someone with deeper pockets to create the R&D and lower costs so they can compete with Apple.

With any luck the prices will come down another couple hundred in 2 years getting it close to the average selling price of a Windows 'PC". Then these could be a huge success.

So the question is: Are they in a better or worse position before Intel gave them a hand?

Originally Posted by benanderson89

They make very little profit on the Ultrabooks (or "will make very little" since they have not been released yet). In two years if they are still trying to race to the bottom of the bargain bucket whilst incorporating new technologies into their products, we could see many brands dropping ultrabooks, making cost cutting measure in quality/feature set or raising the prices - either way, Apple laughs all the way to the bank with their supply chain. I want competition to keep Apple on their toes but the competition seems to have dug a rather deep grave.

Originally Posted by Ireland

Ok, Einstein.

Originally Posted by freckledbruh

From my understanding, the OEMs asked for even further discounts to which Intel said, "Hell no!" I think that Intel wants the OEMs to move away from the race to the bottom for their own good (HP anyone?) and also to stave off any thoughts of moving to ARM since Microsoft is now porting Windows 8 to ARM.

Originally Posted by Conwaycf

The label will now say "Intel inside AND out!"

Originally Posted by solipsism

I see this as Intel dangling a poisoned Apple in front of these other vendors telling they'll be able to compete better, but the whole point is to increase Intel's ULV/LV Core processor sales so they can invest more R&D into getting the performance up and the power usage down to appease Apple's demands.

Originally Posted by nvidia2008

Intel should make their own OS. Not as outrageous as it sounds.