or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Ultrabook makers 'testing the water' with initial shipments under 50k - report
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Ultrabook makers 'testing the water' with initial shipments under 50k - report - Page 2

post #41 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

I challenge you to actually think about it for yourselves.

Intel are throwing absolutely everything they have behind Ultrabooks.

They are creating reference designs for OEMs, trying to reduce the build costs, putting $300m into research grants and offering CPU discounts.

All this and the OEM's are hesitant to follow Intel's lead.

Even with the big bunch of carrots Intel is dangling in front of the OEM's all they are willing to do is "test the water".

So we know the OEM's aren't really a part of this push. We also know Microsoft aren't anywhere to be seen.

That leaves Intel, making a move that threatens to piss off Apple by ripping off their designs and helping their competitors, all so Intel can make less money (because of the above mentioned discounts and incentives) than they would if they just let Apple go ahead and sell more MacBook Air's.

At this point I'm going to assume you've realized we're dealing in shades of grey on this one so I'll say again, I challenge you to actually think about it for yourselves.

From my understanding, the OEMs asked for even further discounts to which Intel said, "Hell no!" I think that Intel wants the OEMs to move away from the race to the bottom for their own good (HP anyone?) and also to stave off any thoughts of moving to ARM since Microsoft is now porting Windows 8 to ARM.
2010 mac mini/iPad OG/iPhone 4/appletv OG/appletv 2/ BT trackpad and keyboard/time capsule/ Wii
Reply
2010 mac mini/iPad OG/iPhone 4/appletv OG/appletv 2/ BT trackpad and keyboard/time capsule/ Wii
Reply
post #42 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by freckledbruh View Post

From my understanding, the OEMs asked for even further discounts to which Intel said, "Hell no!" I think that Intel wants the OEMs to move away from the race to the bottom for their own good (HP anyone?) and also to stave off any thoughts of moving to ARM since Microsoft is now porting Windows 8 to ARM.

ARM is really not the major threat that Intel faces. AMD is a far bigger concern at this point.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
post #43 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831 View Post

This is a grim omen.

First of all, this reflects the basic fact that the Windows PC market isn't really receptive to this category. Dell's Adamo was a commercial failure and PC manufacturers are well aware of that.

....

Secondly, these PC manufacturers are probably wary of another TouchPad debacle.
Have Windows PC manufacturers painted themselves into a shitty, low-margin unsatisfying corner where their main competitor innovates, generates high customer satisfaction and walks away with the lion's share of the industry's profits?

Every poster should re-read this before commenting.
post #44 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831 View Post

This is a grim omen.
. . .
Have Windows PC manufacturers painted themselves into a shitty, low-margin unsatisfying corner where their main competitor innovates, generates high customer satisfaction and walks away with the lion's share of the industry's profits?

Wish there was a way to follow certain members. Appreciate your clarity, from This to profits.

When I find time to rewrite the laws of Physics, there'll Finally be some changes made round here!

I am not crazy! Three out of five court appointed psychiatrists said so.

Reply

When I find time to rewrite the laws of Physics, there'll Finally be some changes made round here!

I am not crazy! Three out of five court appointed psychiatrists said so.

Reply
post #45 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

ARM is really not the major threat that Intel faces. AMD is a far bigger concern at this point.

Yes and no. Many Windows users already expect a slow computer and don't use that many third party applications. If Microsoft ports over it's usual cadre of apps or makes using its Windows Live apps acceptable, then I could see people buying lower cost ARM netbooks because they simply don't know any better.
2010 mac mini/iPad OG/iPhone 4/appletv OG/appletv 2/ BT trackpad and keyboard/time capsule/ Wii
Reply
2010 mac mini/iPad OG/iPhone 4/appletv OG/appletv 2/ BT trackpad and keyboard/time capsule/ Wii
Reply
post #46 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

I challenge you to actually think about it for yourselves.

Ok, Einstein.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
Reply
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
Reply
post #47 of 79
"Testing The Waters" is one of the major differences between Apple and other manufacturers. When Apple tests the waters they call it a hobby. In the case of iPhone and iPad Apple went all in with manufacturing, marketing and distribution. These other manufacturers are testing the waters hoping to get lucky without putting too much at stake. Apple knows how to make people want their products. Like Yogi said, '90% of this game is 100% mental'. That is the Apple advantage.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply
post #48 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

I challenge you to actually think about it for yourselves

You realize absolutely nothing you followed that with supports your earlier statement that
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

Ultrabooks are not a response to Apple.

In fact, the bit about "ripping off Apple's designs" would indicate exactly the opposite.

This "segment" didn't exist until Apple created it with the MacBook Air. After an iteration or two, it got popular, and now the PC market wants in on the action. How is that not a response to Apple?
Multiplex is an online comic strip about the staff of a movie theater.
Reply
Multiplex is an online comic strip about the staff of a movie theater.
Reply
post #49 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatisgoingon View Post

[making a device that costs $1000, while not losing money on it] "This is the major reason why we do not believe that the ultrabook segment is really going to take off until next year."

What exactly will happen next year that will change the situation? Apple still will be able to beat everybody on costs due to their volume, not having to pay the Windows tax, and having more flexibility in being able to design the computer. And Intel will get a swift kick by Apple and/or the FTC if they try to sell chips to Apple's competitors for less than they will sell those chips to Apple...

They hope component prices will come down... specifically SSDs and next-gen Intel processors, and probably displays to a lesser extent.

I don't think ultrabooks will sell in large volume. The average selling price of a PC is under $700, and without a low-end model that cheap, they're doomed to a niche market. The only non-Apple computers that can command high prices are extremely powerful machines like high-end workstations and gaming rigs.
post #50 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuwafuwa View Post

After netbook, they try ultra-netbook. Nice try.

They have full sized keyboards and are running modern CPUs, not Atom processors.To give you an idea of how much more of a machine these are the processors, per batch of 1000, from Intel cost as much as entire netbook.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

Some of these MBA knockoffs actually look pretty good. But even if they can compete on price with apple they will flop for one simple reason -- PC users are tasteless cheapskates who look only at hz, bytes, and $. They will never pay more than $500 for a computer.

They look great, but I agree if given a choice between $1000+ notebooks that more and more will choose Macs. They know they can walk into an Apple Store to get support if needed and for the few not willing to give up on Windows they can still install it.

I have yet to see a Windows-based notebook with a large multitouch trackpad that worked well. I hope that this issue has been resolved for the Ultrabooks.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #51 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiA View Post

I've noticed one or two people buying Airs simply to run Windows without OS X - a waste, they should at least keep Bootcamp.

These Ultrabook competitors will need to either price cheaper than an equivalent Air and Windows licence together, or produce machines superior in spec to a Macbook Air.

I suspect those who try will omit Thunderbolt and thus fail.

I haven't read any of the specifications of the new Ultrabooks. I hope they do well and are priced lower than the Mac Books. I'm looking for features as well as chip speed. The Toshiba has an ethernet port. I like that. It will make it easier to connect to my modem. It also has HDMI. If I ever buy another computer with Windows it will definitely become a dual boot with a distribution of Linux which will be my main OS on it.
post #52 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

They hope component prices will come down... specifically SSDs and next-gen Intel processors, and probably displays to a lesser extent.

I don't think ultrabooks will sell in large volume. The average selling price of a PC is under $700, and without a low-end model that cheap, they're doomed to a niche market. The only non-Apple computers that can command high prices are extremely powerful machines like high-end workstations and gaming rigs.

I hope, for their sake, this first run of ultrabooks is much like the first MBA which sold for considerably more until costs could be brought down. I think people will love these if they were $800, but at over $1000 it's just not going to be anything but a tiny niche product for those that hate yet secretly covet Apple's products.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #53 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post

I haven't read any of the specifications of the new Ultrabooks. I hope they do well and are priced lower than the Mac Books. I'm looking for features as well as chip speed. The Toshiba has an ethernet port. I like that. It will make it easier to connect to my modem. It also has HDMI. If I ever buy another computer with Windows it will definitely become a dual boot with a distribution of Linux which will be my main OS on it.

Specs, specs, specs...

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4725/l...300s-ultrabook

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4729/m...a-protege-z830

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4369/a...t-sandy-bridge
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #54 of 79
Some of these look like they have ok specs. Really if they can provide a better windows experience than a macbook air, and market it well, they may have a chance.

They really need some support from microsoft though.
post #55 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

Ultrabooks are not a response to Apple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

I challenge you to actually think about it for yourselves.

Intel are throwing absolutely everything they have behind Ultrabooks.

.....

That leaves Intel, making a move that threatens to piss off Apple by ripping off their designs and helping their competitors, all so Intel can make less money (because of the above mentioned discounts and incentives) than they would if they just let Apple go ahead and sell more MacBook Air's.

At this point I'm going to assume you've realized we're dealing in shades of grey on this one so I'll say again, I challenge you to actually think about it for yourselves.

Here, let me give you this quote from the WJS first:
"Intel is quick to acknowledge that the Ultrabook effort was in large part inspired by Apple Inc.s iPad tablet and particularly its sleek MacBook Air. The latter was recently updated with Intels latest microprocessors and has been selling much more briskly than most laptop PCs running Microsoft Corp.s Windows operating system.

'To date if you wanted that sleek design you had to buy a Mac,' said Greg Welch, director of Intels Ultrabook group, in an interview last week. 'There are people who want a PC in that form factor.'

and

"Welch said Apple informed Intel that it better drastically slash its power consumption or would likely lose Apples business. 'It was a real wake-up call to us,' he said."
The rest of the article can be found here:
http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2011/08/...ur-ultrabooks/

So basically Apple pushed Intel to even go into this realm of high performance and low consumption CPUs. And they are feeling threatened partly by Apple investing so much into ARM.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/23803...nsumption.html

http://www.tuaw.com/2011/08/11/intel...atens-to-dump/

Another really good quote:
"Apple threatened to switch to another chipmaker if Intel didn't drastically reduce the power consumption of its chips. The threat of losing one of its main customers has prompted Intel to refocus its product roadmap on reducing power consumption from its current level of 35-40 watts all the way down to 15 watts."
post #56 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiA View Post

I suspect those who try will omit Thunderbolt and thus fail.

lol I have yet to see anything using thunderbolt at a retail store... I think its worst than firewire was.
post #57 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

lol I have yet to see anything using thunderbolt at a retail store... I think its worst than firewire was.

It is. With the huge success that USB 2.0 was, everyone will naturally go with 3.0. It's on every mobo these days and there are a ton more devices with 3.0 functionality.

Thunderbolt is DOA

Retina Macbook Pro - 2.6ghz

Galaxy Nexus - Jelly Bean!

Reply

Retina Macbook Pro - 2.6ghz

Galaxy Nexus - Jelly Bean!

Reply
post #58 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

lol I have yet to see anything using thunderbolt at a retail store... I think its worst than firewire was.

You do realize it's only been 6 months since Thunderbolt was first announced to the world, right? Apple is just now getting ready to roll out their Thunderbolt-equipped displays and still haven't added it to every Mac being sold. If at CES 2012 there are no vendors supporting Thunderbolt you can worry. If at CES 2013 there are no vendors supporting Thunderbolt then you call it dead.


PS: This mentality that it's competing with USB therefore it will end up being like FireWire is the most ridiculous, ignorant, and irrational argument I've read on these forums in a long time… and that's saying something considering MacRulez and Galbi are frequent posters.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #59 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

The threat from ARM to Intel's existence will ensure it (even if Intel have to start manufacturing the damn things themselves )

The label will now say "Intel inside AND out!"
post #60 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You do realize it's only been 6 months since Thunderbolt was first announced to the world, right? Apple is just now getting ready to roll out their Thunderbolt-equipped displays and still haven't added it to every Mac being sold. If at CES 2012 there are no vendors supporting Thunderbolt you can worry. If at CES 2013 there are no vendors supporting Thunderbolt then you call it dead.


PS: This mentality that it's competing with USB therefore it will end up being like FireWire is the most ridiculous, ignorant, and irrational argument I've read on these forums in a long time and that's saying something considering MacRulez and Galbi are frequent posters.

So apple things that they will carry the entire interface on their back again like they tried to do with firewire? There's a reason mobos these days don't have it. Nobody wants to develop devices for it.

USB 3.0 is perfectly backwards compatible with all USB 2.0 devices. Thats good news, because there are vast quantities of USB 2.0 devices still on the shelves, including newer and older models. Plus, its unlikely that users will want to get rid of their existing USB 2.0 devices before their lifespan has expired. USB 3.0 makes it a smooth transition.

Thunderbolt is striclty an Intel technolgoy, meaning you wont be able to find a Thunderbolt port on a computer thats based on AMD chipsets or other off-brand CPUs. That may be a factor, now that the market has somewhat cooled in its preference for Intel over AMD.

So if Apple keeps bitching about Intel and switches to AMD? Then what happens? No Apple support. Now I know that Apple wouldn't dare switch to AMD for CPUs, but it's definitely a factor for non Apple Products, and these non Apple products are what shapes the market in terms of other devices.

But seriously, the USB 2.0 backwards compatibility will kill it alone.

Retina Macbook Pro - 2.6ghz

Galaxy Nexus - Jelly Bean!

Reply

Retina Macbook Pro - 2.6ghz

Galaxy Nexus - Jelly Bean!

Reply
post #61 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaroonMushroom View Post

So apple things that they will carry the entire interface on their back again like they tried to do with firewire? There's a reason mobos these days don't have it. Nobody wants to develop devices for it.

USB 3.0 is perfectly backwards compatible with all USB 2.0 devices. Thats good news, because there are vast quantities of USB 2.0 devices still on the shelves, including newer and older models. Plus, its unlikely that users will want to get rid of their existing USB 2.0 devices before their lifespan has expired. USB 3.0 makes it a smooth transition.

Thunderbolt is striclty an Intel technolgoy, meaning you wont be able to find a Thunderbolt port on a computer thats based on AMD chipsets or other off-brand CPUs. That may be a factor, now that the market has somewhat cooled in its preference for Intel over AMD.

So if Apple keeps bitching about Intel and switches to AMD? Then what happens? No Apple support. Now I know that Apple wouldn't dare switch to AMD for CPUs, but it's definitely a factor for non Apple Products, and these non Apple products are what shapes the market in terms of other devices.

But seriously, the USB 2.0 backwards compatibility will kill it alone.

1) Thunderbolt is an Intel tech. Remember who started USB? That's right, Intel. Maybe you should attempt to see how well USB has done in the market.

2) The mDP port interface has already been used by many graphic card and display markers. Making it Thunderbolt compatible won't be a big jump, especially with Intel including it in the chipset for next year's releases.

3) You should realize the glaring benefits of Thunderbolt/DisplayPort and see that it has a very good chance of becoming a standard once Intel adds support to their chips. Oh yeah, the license costs NOTHING, unlike the high priced license of FireWire which was the de facto hinderance of the tech despite it's capabilities.

4) USB doesn't have to go away for Thunderbolt to succeed. Coming it's also the next generation video-out port whereas USB3.0 is not, there are plenty of reasons why you can expect Thunderbolt to be coming to 'PCs' in 2012. Just wait until the next CES before you cry foul.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #62 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831 View Post

This is a grim omen... Have Windows PC manufacturers painted themselves into a shitty, low-margin unsatisfying corner where their main competitor innovates, generates high customer satisfaction and walks away with the lion's share of the industry's profits?

What *is* grim to me is that these Windows PC manufacturers all have high mindshare and marketshare among the regular Joes. They're not losing money either, margins are thin but they are actually making money.

It's the obsession with growth. Big business is freaking out about growth, more so than usual. Youtube "Money As Debt". By nature remember 3% growth each year is not a straight-line but an exponential curve. There is a panic spreading among big business particularly in light of the US and European financial crisis and it's causing all sorts of irrational thinking and half-baked rubbish rushed to market.
post #63 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

They hope component prices will come down... specifically SSDs and next-gen Intel processors, and probably displays to a lesser extent.

I don't think ultrabooks will sell in large volume. The average selling price of a PC is under $700, and without a low-end model that cheap, they're doomed to a niche market. The only non-Apple computers that can command high prices are extremely powerful machines like high-end workstations and gaming rigs.

Sure, but component pricing will come down for everybody, including Apple.

So next year, they'll be able to make a $1000 MacBookAir clone [as they don't seem to be able to do so now and still make any kind of profit, let alone the kind of profit Apple makes]. Next years MacBookAir for $1000 will still be better. Maybe several years from now they can make a something like a MacBookAir that's cheaper than Apple [same form factor, cheaper components], but it'll still be fat profits for Intel and Microsoft, not much for anybody else [other than Apple].
post #64 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831 View Post

You mentioned nothing about competitors and their tablet pricing. Apple released a premium-priced tablet.

Apple released a premium tablet but during the same announcement said they had priced it aggressively. Obviously they succeeded because no company has been competitive with the iPad yet.
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
Reply
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
Reply
post #65 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

lol I have yet to see anything using thunderbolt at a retail store... I think its worst than firewire was.

And you won't see it until Q1 at best or more likely Q2 2012. Apple had a headstart by working with Intel to develop TB and it will take that long for the competition to release computers with TB included.
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
Reply
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
Reply
post #66 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatisgoingon View Post

Sure, but component pricing will come down for everybody, including Apple.

So next year, they'll be able to make a $1000 MacBookAir clone [as they don't seem to be able to do so now and still make any kind of profit, let alone the kind of profit Apple makes]. Next years MacBookAir for $1000 will still be better. Maybe several years from now they can make a something like a MacBookAir that's cheaper than Apple [same form factor, cheaper components], but it'll still be fat profits for Intel and Microsoft, not much for anybody else [other than Apple].

There are several vendors that are releasing Ultrabooks starting at the $1000 price point. These are even the 13" models, not the 11" model Apple sells for $999, so they are getting a leg up with Intel's help. That doesn't guarantee they will be successful or profitable per unit at this point, but they are getting competitive.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #67 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

There are several vendors that are releasing Ultrabooks starting at the $1000 price point. These are even the 13" models, not the 11" model Apple sells for $999, so they are getting a leg up with Intel's help. That doesn't guarantee they will be successful or profitable per unit at this point, but they are getting competitive.

They would increase their competitiveness if they make their machine hardware compatible with Mac Air. At least just use the same major hardwares. That should attract the hackintosh crowd.
post #68 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsu View Post

They would increase their competitiveness if they make their machine hardware compatible with Mac Air. At least just use the same major hardwares. That should attract the hackintosh crowd.

They are using the same basic ULV/LV CPU architecture, a milled aluminium chassis, chicklet keyboard and large glass trackpad. Remember when all these things were deemed pointless features, over-engineering and/or or bad features? I do.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #69 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsu View Post

They would increase their competitiveness if they make their machine hardware compatible with Mac Air. At least just use the same major hardwares. That should attract the hackintosh crowd.

That is only the screen size though. I don't think people will even be remotely hyped until these companies release some solid specs. For example, I've read reviews on the new Acer Ultrabook and I can't find any specs other than "it may use Intels ULV i3, i5 or i7 processor" which is fine and dandy but "may use" is not good enough. Plus there is apparently build quality concerns on the acer (flexing with the case, particularly the monitor).

So they are either cutting costs to make more profit or cutting costs to actually make a profit. I have high hopes for the Toshiba Ultra book though - its ugly as sin but I've always liked Toshiba's build quality and spec sheets.

Time will tell, eh?

... at night.

Reply

... at night.

Reply
post #70 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

They are using the same basic ULV/LV CPU architecture, a milled aluminium chassis, chicklet keyboard and large glass trackpad. Remember when all these things were deemed pointless features, over-engineering and/or or bad features? I do.

This is the problem. They are all following one ultrabook specification, so all these manufacturers will be putting out the same product with the same insides at different price points with slightly varying case designs. At the end of the day, buyers are all going to turn around and go "if they are all the same price and the same specs, why not get an Apple and enjoy the premium market brand?"

Not even released yet and the PC makers are commoditising the market already.

... at night.

Reply

... at night.

Reply
post #71 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831 View Post

This is a grim omen.

First of all, this reflects the basic fact that the Windows PC market isn't really receptive to this category. Dell's Adamo was a commercial failure and PC manufacturers are well aware of that.

Secondly, these PC manufacturers are probably wary of another TouchPad debacle. HP cancelled their media tablet shortly after launch, sold off channel inventory at liquidation prices, then apparently had their manufacturing partners build more units to soak up parts already committed in various supply contracts.

Lastly, there are no volume discounts for such small production runs. They aren't releasing millions of MacBook Airs. Apple has benefited from leveraging their iDevice supply chain mastery to Mac production. Most Windows PC manufacturers have no significant smartphone/media tablet business and can't reap the benefits of massive contracts for things like NAND flash memory and LCD panels.

Frankly, I'm not sure if PC buyers will make this a viable category. It may end up being like the iPad/non-iPad conundrum where buyers will pay a thousand bucks for a MacBook Air, but won't pay more than five hundred or six for a similar Windows PC. The HP TouchPad showed that the marketplace accepts the iPad at one price point and everything else is devalued.

This looks like another PC Bataan Death March, a gruesome drive to the bottom. Someone should be able to compete with Apple's MacBook Air, but it will be with razor thin margins. We already know that Windows PC users rate lower than Mac users in terms of customer satisfaction. Apparently paying the "Apple tax" isn't such a hindrance to user satisfaction.

At this point one must ask the question, "If saving money is such a big deal why aren't Windows PC users happier?" Acer's management apparently took a deep look, fired their CEO, and basically admitted that their whole low-margin/we'll-make-it-up-on-volume business model was crap and a poor return on investment for their shareholders.

Have Windows PC manufacturers painted themselves into a shitty, low-margin unsatisfying corner where their main competitor innovates, generates high customer satisfaction and walks away with the lion's share of the industry's profits?

This has be to be the best comment I have read on this forum. Nice Work.
post #72 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post

This is the problem. They are all following one ultrabook specification, so all these manufacturers will be putting out the same product with the same insides at different price points with slightly varying case designs. At the end of the day, buyers are all going to turn around and go "if they are all the same price and the same specs, why not get an Apple and enjoy the premium market brand?"

Not even released yet and the PC makers are commoditising the market already.

True, and that will lead to the same fight for the bottom that is seen with Windows and Android vendors, but I don't see another option for them if they are going to compete with Apple's economy of scale. Intel needs them to use their ULV/LV Core chips and they needed someone with deeper pockets to create the R&D and lower costs so they can compete with Apple.

With any luck the prices will come down another couple hundred in 2 years getting it close to the average selling price of a Windows 'PC". Then these could be a huge success.

So the question is: Are they in a better or worse position before Intel gave them a hand?
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #73 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

True, and that will lead to the same fight for the bottom that is seen with Windows and Android vendors, but I don't see another option for them if they are going to compete with Apple's economy of scale. Intel needs them to use their ULV/LV Core chips and they needed someone with deeper pockets to create the R&D and lower costs so they can compete with Apple.

With any luck the prices will come down another couple hundred in 2 years getting it close to the average selling price of a Windows 'PC". Then these could be a huge success.

So the question is: Are they in a better or worse position before Intel gave them a hand?

They make very little profit on the Ultrabooks (or "will make very little" since they have not been released yet). In two years if they are still trying to race to the bottom of the bargain bucket whilst incorporating new technologies into their products, we could see many brands dropping ultrabooks, making cost cutting measure in quality/feature set or raising the prices - either way, Apple laughs all the way to the bank with their supply chain. I want competition to keep Apple on their toes but the competition seems to have dug a rather deep grave.

... at night.

Reply

... at night.

Reply
post #74 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post

They make very little profit on the Ultrabooks (or "will make very little" since they have not been released yet). In two years if they are still trying to race to the bottom of the bargain bucket whilst incorporating new technologies into their products, we could see many brands dropping ultrabooks, making cost cutting measure in quality/feature set or raising the prices - either way, Apple laughs all the way to the bank with their supply chain. I want competition to keep Apple on their toes but the competition seems to have dug a rather deep grave.

I see this as Intel dangling a poisoned Apple in front of these other vendors telling they'll be able to compete better, but the whole point is to increase Intel's ULV/LV Core processor sales so they can invest more R&D into getting the performance up and the power usage down to appease Apple's demands.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #75 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Ok, Einstein.

*slow clap*

You definitely got me there. Good one!
post #76 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by freckledbruh View Post

From my understanding, the OEMs asked for even further discounts to which Intel said, "Hell no!" I think that Intel wants the OEMs to move away from the race to the bottom for their own good (HP anyone?) and also to stave off any thoughts of moving to ARM since Microsoft is now porting Windows 8 to ARM.

Exactly. This is mostly about ARM, not Apple.

Intel isn't trying to directly compete with Apple so the Ultrabook isn't a "response" to Apple.

It's kind of like if a kid taking an exam for a teacher, and the kid steals the answer sheet.

In this analogy Intel would be the kid, Apple is the teacher and the Macbook Air is the answer sheet

It's not just about Intel getting all the OEMs behind Intel reference designs in order to increase the economies of scale on their low voltage processors and chipsets as Solipsism mentioned above (although that is a huge part of it).

It's also about trying to shift the way the PC industry works. At the moment they favor configurable designs and off-the-shelf components which are used to support their plethora of model variations. This makes something like the MacBook Air with its appliance-like custom components and design impossible to make.

Also (perhaps even more importantly) it makes something like a x86 based tablet impossible to make.
post #77 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conwaycf View Post

The label will now say "Intel inside AND out!"

A pity it's still Windows through AND through!

Intel should make their own OS. Not as outrageous as it sounds.
post #78 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I see this as Intel dangling a poisoned Apple in front of these other vendors telling they'll be able to compete better, but the whole point is to increase Intel's ULV/LV Core processor sales so they can invest more R&D into getting the performance up and the power usage down to appease Apple's demands.

But it will never go down enough to be in an Apple tablet by early 2013. Not the way things are looking. By then ARM will have the same horsepower of whatever Intel "scales down" to.

And Intel graphics will still be rubbish and PowerVR will continue to eat their lunch in the phone and tablet space. Intel still doesn't have a clue about how to make a decent GPU, let alone a mobile/tablet one. If the rumours(?) are to be believed PowerVR already has DX10.1/OpenGL3-capable GPUs... Man, I keep saying it but Apple is sooo close to busting out an iPad3 that will easily match the PS3 in terms of gaming capability. And that means iPhone, iPad, AppleTV that takes on all the "hardcore" gaming consoles in 2012 or 2013 at the very, very latest.
post #79 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Intel should make their own OS. Not as outrageous as it sounds.

That's MeeGo isn't is?

It's a colossal failure AFAIK. Intel don't have the platform breadth to compete in the OS world.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Ultrabook makers 'testing the water' with initial shipments under 50k - report