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The Alternative To Obama And Democrat Policies Thread

post #1 of 56
Thread Starter 
State them here, as per discussions in other threads. What are the alternatives? What are the Republican proposals and policies?
post #2 of 56
Are Republicans the only ones offering alternatives? ARE they offering alternatives?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #3 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Are Republicans the only ones offering alternatives? ARE they offering alternatives?



As they say, "Well, there's your problem".

I've given this forum a few days for people to actually post alternatives in this dedicated thread, particularly Obama critics.

Should we be surprised this thread is still void of Republican alternatives... Or, any alternatives?
post #4 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post



As they say, "Well, there's your problem".

I've given this forum a few days for people to actually post alternatives in this dedicated thread, particularly Obama critics.

Should we be surprised this thread is still void of Republican alternatives... Or, any alternatives?

You shouldn't complain. I've been posting intermittently lately because of simple time constraints. Also folks like yourself complain that they basically can't derail a thread or fail to notice the existing threads on the same topic. There are already threads on Rick Perry, Ron Paul and Libertarianism all on the front page here. Pissing and moaning that your catch all thread doesn't generate interest is your problem.

Flat taxes..
Health Savings Accounts..
Fair Trade vs Free Trade..
Generational Accounting..
Ending Pax Americana..

Those are some alternatives right there. I'm quite sure large segments of the Democratic Party and Republican Party would support almost all of them.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #5 of 56
Numerous alternatives have been offered over multiple threads for several years. They are almost always summarily dismissed by the pro-establishment folks on both sides of the aisle.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #6 of 56
When asked what the poor are supposed to do when charity isn't enough to give them access to food, shelter, and healthcare, those proposing these alleged alternatives either shut up or change the subject.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #7 of 56
Stealing from others to support them obviously isn't enough, either.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #8 of 56
No politician will offer a truly workable solution, because it's painful.

The only way for things to get better (longterm) involves pain (short term)... we need to PAY DOWN THE DEBT!!!
That means cutting spending... cutting EVERYWHERE... military, social welfare, subsidies... EVERYWHERE.

It will be painful ... especially so for the poorest. Too bad.

You want to raise taxes??... then raise them on EVERYone... and i'll only support THAT if it includes paying down the debt...
(Reducing deficit spending is NOT the same as paying down debt.)
Total spending has to be LESS THAN the income from taxes... period.

Many people on welfare are going to loose a large portion of their "free money" under this plan ... middle and upper-class are going to see their tax burden increase ... if only due to closing all "loopholes" (though a flat tax, period, would be better.)

This'll cause the economy to tank again ... it'll take years to catch up ... years of pain and suffering ... but if we can get the spending under control, enact a balanced budget amendment and find a way to turn representatives into actual representatives (instead of full-time campaigners) the nation, and world, would be better for it 10-20 years down the road.

Nobody will do it, because the pain it causes will cost them re-election. The proles seem to be unable to see past the end of the week, much less able to sacrifice today for a better tomorrow.

Sorry for the rambling "stream of consciousness" approach, but I don't feel like taking the time to clean it up for you idiots.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #9 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Stealing from others to support them obviously isn't enough, either.

Taxes aren't theft. You have failed to prove this assertion again and again. Even still, stealing to save a life? You wouldn't? So much for the sanctity of human life. Imaginary baby Jesus weeps at you.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #10 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Taxes aren't theft. You have failed to prove this assertion again and again. Even still, stealing to save a life? You wouldn't? So much for the sanctity of human life. Imaginary baby Jesus weeps at you.

You say "we're not stealing enough".

I say stealing is wrong.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #11 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

No politician will offer a truly workable solution, because it's painful.

The only way for things to get better (longterm) involves pain (short term)... we need to PAY DOWN THE DEBT!!!
That means cutting spending... cutting EVERYWHERE... military, social welfare, subsidies... EVERYWHERE.

It will be painful ... especially so for the poorest. Too bad.

You want to raise taxes??... then raise them on EVERYone... and i'll only support THAT if it includes paying down the debt...
(Reducing deficit spending is NOT the same as paying down debt.)
Total spending has to be LESS THAN the income from taxes... period.

Many people on welfare are going to loose a large portion of their "free money" under this plan ... middle and upper-class are going to see their tax burden increase ... if only due to closing all "loopholes" (though a flat tax, period, would be better.)

This'll cause the economy to tank again ... it'll take years to catch up ... years of pain and suffering ... but if we can get the spending under control, enact a balanced budget amendment and find a way to turn representatives into actual representatives (instead of full-time campaigners) the nation, and world, would be better for it 10-20 years down the road.

Nobody will do it, because the pain it causes will cost them re-election. The proles seem to be unable to see past the end of the week, much less able to sacrifice today for a better tomorrow.

Sorry for the rambling "stream of consciousness" approach, but I don't feel like taking the time to clean it up for you idiots.

Yep, reducing the debt will surely require a broad approach.

Bare in mind though that cutting too far for the poor, can be detrimental financially. Some cuts will mean increase costs in other areas. Take for instance, education, longer term those cuts will will leave more and more people underqualified in society. Cuts in healthcare spending can mean caring for someone because they're symptons got worse instead of having been treated.

Tax increases, if they're on the table should be higher for the wealthy. When taxes go up for a typical American, they pay aproximately the same as the increase. When they go up for a wealthy person, they prepare accordingly and pay only say 30% of the increase. That's why taxes must be raised higher on the rich than the typical American. Like I posted recently, a janitor in a fancy New York skyscrapper pays 25% of his or her income in taxes, the well to do in that same building only pay 15% of theirs.

Cutting tax loopholes is a good thing, but can only go so far and sometimes for good reason.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #12 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

You say "we're not stealing enough".

I say stealing is wrong.

I know you don't think it's stealing when it's say military spending or enforcing the rule of law. So should the wealthy pay any more than the averagely wealthy American in taxes if it was a completely constitutional ideal set of taxes that were being payed?
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #13 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I know you don't think it's stealing when it's say military spending or enforcing the rule of law. So should the wealthy pay any more than the averagely wealthy American in taxes if it was a completely constitutional ideal set of taxes that were being payed?

Taxation is theft. Period. I don't care what the money is used for, it's still theft.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #14 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Taxation is theft. Period. I don't care what the money is used for, it's still theft.

Oh come on!
So you're an anarchist?... You don't think we should have any government here in the USA?

It costs money to provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and to secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity. (Though today's government sure doesn't seem to be taking our "posterity" into account when they make decisions.)
Government doesn't come free... Defense, infrastructure, et al... It costs $.
The Constitution of the USA allows for taxation. The FORM of taxation has been questioned from time to time, but not the fact that some taxation is legal and necessary. (And therefore not theft.)
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #15 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Oh come on!
So you're an anarchist?... You don't think we should have any government here in the USA?

It costs money to provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and to secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity. (Though today's government sure doesn't seem to be taking our "posterity" into account when they make decisions.)
Government doesn't come free... Defense, infrastructure, et al... It costs $.
The Constitution of the USA allows for taxation. The FORM of taxation has been questioned from time to time, but not the fact that some taxation is legal and necessary. (And therefore not theft.)

I am going to agree with this overall.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #16 of 56
Lysander Spooner wrote:

Quote:
It is true that the theory of our Constitution is, that all taxes are paid voluntarily; that our government is a mutual insurance company, voluntarily entered into by the people with each other . . . .

But this theory of our government is wholly different from the practical fact. The fact is that the government, like a highwayman, say to a man: "Your money, or your life." And many, if not most, taxes are paid under the compulsion of that threat.

The government does not, indeed, waylay a man in a lonely place, spring upon him from the roadside, and holding a pistol to his head, proceed to rifle his pockets. But the robbery is none the less a robbery on that account; and it is far more dastardly and shameful.

The highwayman takes solely upon himself the responsibility, danger, and crime of his own act. He does not pretend that he has any rightful claim to your money, or that he intends to use it for your own benefit. He does not pretend to be anything but a robber. He has not acquired impudence enough to profess to be merely a "protector," and that he takes men's money against their will, merely to enable him to "protect" those infatuated travellers, who feel perfectly able to protect themselves, or do not appreciate his peculiar system of protection. He is too sensible a man to make such professions as these. Furthermore, having taken your money, he leaves you, as you wish him to do. He does not persist in following you on the road, against your will; assuming to be your rightful "sovereign," on account of the "protection" he affords you. He does not keep "protecting" you, by commanding you to bow down and serve him; by requiring you to do this, and forbidding you to do that; by robbing you of more money as often as he finds it for his interest or pleasure to do so; and by branding you as a rebel, a traitor, and an enemy to your country, and shooting you down without mercy, if you dispute his authority, or resist his demands. He is too much of a gentleman to be guilty of such impostures, and insults, and villainies as these. In short, he does not, in addition to robbing you, attempt to make you either his dupe or his slave.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #17 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Lysander Spooner wrote:

I understand the sentiment, and a great deal of taxation falls under what you are describing, but not all taxation. The problem is, the line has become very blurred now and there are those that literally believe that it will mean death to them if you cut off those taxes.

What taxes are acceptable? What taxes are not? Even if it is done with high minded ideals and intentions, if something is wrong it is wrong.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #18 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I understand the sentiment, and a great deal of taxation falls under what you are describing, but not all taxation. The problem is, the line has become very blurred now and there are those that literally believe that it will mean death to them if you cut off those taxes.

What taxes are acceptable? What taxes are not? Even if it is done with high minded ideals and intentions, if something is wrong it is wrong.

If it's so wrong he should stop paying taxes, otherwise he's just paying to further empower a tyrant who will feed off of others even more. But he won't stop because he's too scared to stand and fight the evil. Better to pay the mafia huh?
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #19 of 56
Thread Starter 
OK, now we're getting somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

No politician will offer a truly workable solution, because it's painful.

The only way for things to get better (longterm) involves pain (short term)... we need to PAY DOWN THE DEBT!!!
That means cutting spending... cutting EVERYWHERE... military, social welfare, subsidies... EVERYWHERE.

It will be painful ... especially so for the poorest. Too bad.

You want to raise taxes??... then raise them on EVERYone... and i'll only support THAT if it includes paying down the debt...
(Reducing deficit spending is NOT the same as paying down debt.)
Total spending has to be LESS THAN the income from taxes... period.

Many people on welfare are going to loose a large portion of their "free money" under this plan ... middle and upper-class are going to see their tax burden increase ... if only due to closing all "loopholes" (though a flat tax, period, would be better.)

This'll cause the economy to tank again ... it'll take years to catch up ... years of pain and suffering ... but if we can get the spending under control, enact a balanced budget amendment and find a way to turn representatives into actual representatives (instead of full-time campaigners) the nation, and world, would be better for it 10-20 years down the road.

Nobody will do it, because the pain it causes will cost them re-election. The proles seem to be unable to see past the end of the week, much less able to sacrifice today for a better tomorrow.

Sorry for the rambling "stream of consciousness" approach, but I don't feel like taking the time to clean it up for you idiots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

You shouldn't complain. I've been posting intermittently lately because of simple time constraints. Also folks like yourself complain that they basically can't derail a thread or fail to notice the existing threads on the same topic. There are already threads on Rick Perry, Ron Paul and Libertarianism all on the front page here. Pissing and moaning that your catch all thread doesn't generate interest is your problem.

Flat taxes..
Health Savings Accounts..
Fair Trade vs Free Trade..
Generational Accounting..
Ending Pax Americana..

Those are some alternatives right there. I'm quite sure large segments of the Democratic Party and Republican Party would support almost all of them.
post #20 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If it's so wrong he should stop paying taxes, otherwise he's just paying to further empower a tyrant who will feed off of others even more. But he won't stop because he's too scared to stand and fight the evil. Better to pay the mafia huh?

You would love for him to end up in prison wouldn't you?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #21 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Lysander Spooner wrote:

So, Jazz...

How are we (as a nation) to pay for our defense? ... how will highways get built... how will we build and maintain a closed sewer system and water-treatment systems for large cities? How will the court system be funded? (In the event that someone wrongs you, that might come in handy!)

You've plainly stated that ALL TAXATION IS THEFT ... well, theft should not be tolerated, so taxation should not exist...
HOW DO YOU PROPOSE WE PAY FOR THE CONSTITUTIONALLY MANDATED GOVERNMENT? (I'll readily concede that our government has far overstepped it's mandate, but we still need to fund SOME sort of government.)


Again, MY recommendation is a flat tax ... equally applied to EVERYONE. With no exceptions, loopholes, exemptions, etc... just pay your damn taxes!
(Income is one way to do it... but we'd need to clearly define income (I'd think capital gains should be considered income.) Sales tax is another way... but if you exempt food... should it extend to stupid (but tastey!) food like pork rinds and canned soda?... because a sales tax on rice and beans just doesn't seem right.)
Or a combination of the two (and perhaps others.)
My recommendation also comes with an immediate requirement for a balanced budget ... absolutely NO spending over income without an act of congress. (Clearly defined conditions like a declaration of war might be required to even consider it.)
It'll be painful... for several years... but would be worth the pain and suffering for the wealth that would be made available to the next generation of Americans.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #22 of 56
My suggestion with regards to taxation is a high flat tax (somewhere between 40 and 50% at first, to pay down the debt) and a very high standard deduction (somewhere around $80k). The numbers can be adjusted to support the actual budget.
post #23 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

My suggestion with regards to taxation is a high flat tax (somewhere between 40 and 50% at first, to pay down the debt) and a very high standard deduction (somewhere around $80k). The numbers can be adjusted to support the actual budget.

See... I feel that with a standard deduction like that, the low-earners won't be "invested" in the tax rate at all... They need to know what a 50% tax rate is actually like... They need to experience that just as much as the "millionaire" does!! Otherwise it leads to the same class warfare we have now, with politicians pitting one against the other. Nothing wrong with having the poor folks contribute a little to getting us out of this mess... They voted the dumbshits into office as much as anybody else!
(it could be argued that, since there are more poor than wealthy people, that they are MORE responsible for electing these assholes!)
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #24 of 56
I'm pretty sure they feel the effects of living paycheck to paycheck and being one cancer diagnosis away from bankruptcy.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #25 of 56
Pass free trade bills.

Eliminate NLRB

Expedite drilling permits and open anwr.

Repeal ObamaCare
post #26 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

So, Jazz...

How are we (as a nation) to pay for our defense? ... how will highways get built... how will we build and maintain a closed sewer system and water-treatment systems for large cities? How will the court system be funded? (In the event that someone wrongs you, that might come in handy!)

Do you assert that all those services MUST be provided ONLY by government?

Quote:
You've plainly stated that ALL TAXATION IS THEFT ... well, theft should not be tolerated, so taxation should not exist...
HOW DO YOU PROPOSE WE PAY FOR THE CONSTITUTIONALLY MANDATED GOVERNMENT? (I'll readily concede that our government has far overstepped it's mandate, but we still need to fund SOME sort of government.)

How about a fee-based system, where you pay only for those services you actually want and/or use?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #27 of 56
You forget about the benefits you receive from living in a healthy, educated society.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #28 of 56
No, I haven't forgotten about the services that are provided by a coercive government monopoly that forcibly extracts money from me to pay for them whether or not I want or use them.

I'm simply saying there is a better alternative. It's called freedom.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #29 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

See... I feel that with a standard deduction like that, the low-earners won't be "invested" in the tax rate at all... They need to know what a 50% tax rate is actually like... They need to experience that just as much as the "millionaire" does!! Otherwise it leads to the same class warfare we have now, with politicians pitting one against the other. Nothing wrong with having the poor folks contribute a little to getting us out of this mess... They voted the dumbshits into office as much as anybody else!
(it could be argued that, since there are more poor than wealthy people, that they are MORE responsible for electing these assholes!)

It could be argued that you are both nuts.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #30 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

No, I haven't forgotten about the services that are provided by a coercive government monopoly that forcibly extracts money from me to pay for them whether or not I want or use them.

I cannot empathize whatsoever with this point of view. It is as foreign to me as your ridiculous religious beliefs. You are a walking contradiction and it's absolutely painful to talk to you.

You say government has a role and does have to be funded through taxes. Yet you also say all taxes are theft.

You talk about services you don't want to use when we are talking about the benefits of living in a healthy and educated society. That's not exactly a service you can choose to use or not use. The only choice in that matter is to decide whether you want to live in that society or go elsewhere. Believe you me, if this nation decided to follow your ideals to the letter, I'd be out of here.

You don't want to take part in the social contract? Fine. You have your out.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #31 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I cannot empathize whatsoever with this point of view. It is as foreign to me as your ridiculous religious beliefs. You are a walking contradiction and it's absolutely painful to talk to you.

Starting off with ad-homs. This bodes well for the rest of the post.

Quote:
You say government has a role and does have to be funded through taxes. Yet you also say all taxes are theft.

As far as the role of government, my political philosophy tends to go back and forth between minarchy and anarcho-capitalism. That, of course, may change as I continue to learn.

But please quote me where I said the government has to be funded through taxes, because I don't recall making that assertion, and if I did, it was likely before I started getting into libertarian philosophy.

Quote:
You talk about services you don't want to use when we are talking about the benefits of living in a healthy and educated society. That's not exactly a service you can choose to use or not use. The only choice in that matter is to decide whether you want to live in that society or go elsewhere. Believe you me, if this nation decided to follow your ideals to the letter, I'd be out of here.

You don't want to take part in the social contract? Fine. You have your out.

In other words, you're falling back on the "if you don't like it then leave" argument.

Here's the thing. If I was given the choice between opting into the "social contract" or leaving in the first place you might have a valid point.

But I didn't have that choice. This "social contract" has been imposed upon me and I never had the opportunity to give my consent.

It's not even technically a "contract", is it?

Doesn't a the concept of a "contract" entail both parties agreeing upon the terms beforehand? When was I ever presented with the terms of the contract and allowed to opt in - or opt out - of my own free will and choice?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #32 of 56
Having to breathe oxygen is also imposed on you. Go rail against aerobic respiration, too.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #33 of 56
Inalienable (natural) rights don't have to be imposed. That's the point.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #34 of 56
Part of being a social creature means you get to take part in society. You want to live off the grid? Go ahead. You want to be part of a society? Yes, you are fucking born into a social contract. That's the nature of humanity. Deal with it.

You don't have the choice not to eat. You don't have the choice not to breathe. You don't have the choice not to take part in the social contract.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #35 of 56
jazzguru, you weren't given a choice of parents and you weren't given a choice of birth nation. Deal with it. As I said before, you should feel damn lucky you were born into a social contract with the United States of America, and not Somalia, Brazil, or anywhere else in the world where you may think people have more "economic freedom" at the cost of a developed and safe society.

You're like one of those kids who goes to the police with child abuse claims at 11 years old, when your parents force you to clean your room, and ends up leaving home when they're sixteen to get away from a very loving mom and dad, because, "You always do what Sally wants to do! I HATE you, Mom!"

Ayn Rand would be proud. If she cared, which she wouldn't.
post #36 of 56
"Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place." -- Frederic Bastiat

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #37 of 56
jazzguru, every time you go to a restaurant, you're paying for the cleaning and maintenance of the toilet. You could go to the restaurant a hundred times, never use the toilet once, and you're still paying for the cleaning and maintenance of the toilet.

I guess in your utopia, we'd have coin operated toilets in every restaurant, so only those people using the toilet would have to pay for it.

What a wonderful world that would be.

Now you're going to claim you can choose another restaurant. But you still can't choose one that doesn't make you pay for using the toilet, can you? Live off the grid. Cook at home.
post #38 of 56
You're leaving some important points out of your analogy, tonton. Consent, being one of them.

The restaurant is sending armed thugs to my house every day, kidnapping me, taking me to the restaurant, forcing me to eat its food whether I like it or not, and then forcing me to pay for it.

Yes, the money that is taken from me also happens to go towards cleaning the toilets, which I may or may not use.

You accuse me (and libertarians) of being utopian, when we are nothing of the sort.

You want to know what's utopian?

Quote:
The belief that we can grant a monopoly on violence to an institution, along with the authority to determine whether its own actions are permissable — in other words, to grant limitless power to an entity and then say, “Limit yourself” — that is the truly utopian and unrealistic fantasy of a naive mind.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #39 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

You're leaving some important points out of your analogy, tonton. Consent, being one of them.

The restaurant is sending armed thugs to my house every day, kidnapping me, taking me to the restaurant, forcing me to eat its food whether I like it or not, and then forcing me to pay for it.

I already said you can live off the grid and cook at home.

Quote:
Yes, the money that is taken from me also happens to go towards cleaning the toilets, which I may or may not use.

You accuse me (and libertarians) of being utopian, when we are nothing of the sort.

Oh come ON! You claim monopolies wouldn't be a problem under the free market! You claim businesses can self-regulate safety, pollution, fair wage, discrimination, etc. That's pretty fucking utopian!

Quote:
You want to know what's utopian?

Now you're using a Mormon Libertarian site to define "utopia", which simply means "an imagined perfect society", and saying I don't understand the meaning of the word? Good one.

What is it about anti-family nutters claiming same-sex marriage advocates aren't allowed to "redefine words"?
post #40 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I already said you can live off the grid and cook at home.


Oh come ON! You claim monopolies wouldn't be a problem under the free market! You claim businesses can self-regulate safety, pollution, fair wage, discrimination, etc. That's pretty fucking utopian!



Now you're using a Mormon Libertarian site to define "utopia", which simply means "an imagined perfect society", and saying I don't understand the meaning of the word? Good one.

What is it about anti-family nutters claiming same-sex marriage advocates aren't allowed to "redefine words"?

Anti-family nutters, now who is redefining what? Anti-FAMILY?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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