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Microsoft unveils Windows 8 tablet effort with Samsung prototype - Page 5

post #161 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

See, that's just it: you've been able to buy and run Windows tablets since the days of Windows 3.11. You can buy a Windows tablet TODAY and open your Word docs and sync it with SkyDrive, etc. All the stuff in your example. So, what are you trying to say? IF ONLY Apple would do the same, then...what? The iPad would finally outsell Windows tablets? Am I missing something here with all these pro-Windows tablet comments??? What are you guys trying to say?

I'm saying the first person to make it extremely user friendly and portable wins the war. Right now it's advantage Microsoft on the PC side and advantage Apple on the tablet side. The Metro UI has the possibility of giving Apple a run for its money. Add to it the ability to provide a seamless experience between a workstation and tablet then businesses may latch on to it as well since the tablet is running the same OS as the desktop and can be attached to the domain.

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post #162 of 206
If you've used Windows phone 7 device, the first thing you notice besides the buttery fluidity of the kinetic movement, scrolling etc., is the game changing significance of the live tiles.

Metro UI on a phone creates a compelling user experience that feels MUCH more live, organic and engaging than Ios.

Windows 8 w/ Metro stands expand on that theme.

.
post #163 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogerman2000 View Post

If you've used Windows phone 7 device, the first thing you notice besides the buttery fluidity of the kinetic movement, scrolling etc., is the game changing significance of the live tiles.


.

I've heard lots of good things about WinPhone7. Unfortunately, the software comes from only a single vendor. Because of that, I wouldn't even consider buying one.
post #164 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjb View Post

I see that you know tablet computers been around since 1997. Honestly, I did not know its existence and I did not need one as I was busy outgoings and working. I have now come to a stage where I read newspapers and online articles alot at my free time. I wanted Samsung GT 10.1 but my wife fell in love with Ipad2's aluminum case and slick design.

Window tablets mean that I can do much with it, that is appealing to me. Sure it is not user friendely to kids and elderlies. But between them, I am sure most of them would want it if they have Window computers.

Yes, I also used those tablets. Going back to Windows 3.11. Different size screens, from 6" to 12", black and white LCD to color. Used mostly with a stylus. Microsoft literature will sometimes call it "pen computer" but it was always a tablet. Battery life was pathetic on most hardware. And they were heavy as notebooks and usually more expensive than a notebook.

There were two major problems with Microsoft's vision for tablets back then:
(1) No reason to buy a tablet. Windows tablets were not defined by capabilities not found in Windows laptops, nor was it defined by a different user experience. It was defined by the ability to run conventional Windows on a tablet. That aspect had no obvious appeal (other than, gee, that's kind of neat). At the time, the thinking was that tablets needed a "killer app" that would finally give consumers a reason to buy tablets over conventional laptops.

(2) Windows tablets were basically modified laptops. Not just conceptually, but literally speaking. Some tablets had swivel screens that allowed you to fold the keyboard behind the screen. They had fans, hard drives, they weighed over 5lbs. and short battery lifes. And the Windows with Pen Extensions was just regular Windows with a virtual keyboard and support for pen input drivers. Most devices had modifier buttons so you could "right-click". It was always more awkward to use over a conventional laptop. Newtons, which were around in 1997, had a better pen input user experience over heavy, pen-enabled conventional Windows tablets.

Given the choice between a Windows tablet and a Windows laptop, for the purpose of running conventional Windows applications (as opposed to some fabled "killer tablet app"), why would anyone choose the tablet?

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post #165 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

So, again, apps are magically rewriting themselves with "a few lines of code" to become first class tablet citizens? Because the move from mouse to finger friendly is vastly more complex than just updating UI chrome ala XP to 7-- a fact that has hindered Microsoft's tablet efforts in the past.

And if existing apps will use the Metro interface (sounds so straightforward) why didn't MS show any of them? I mean, Word just launches in Metro if I want, right?

No. I think we are getting our terminology mixed up.

The "classic" desktop UI elements have been given a metro "look and feel" overhaul (just like Lion updated UI elements in OSX) and applications written for the "classic" Windows desktop will automatically have this style applied. However classic desktop apps do not run in the start screen UI.

Imagine if Apple made a "OSX App" on iOS that when you opened it displayed a full OSX desktop. When you click on the iPad home button that app was minimized just like your iPad Mail or Safari app would be.

Now imagine if Apple put this version of iOS on all iMacs and MacBooks as well as the iPad.

That is what Microsoft are doing with Windows 8.

If Apple put iOS on an iMac most "mainstream" consumers would never venture outside of that UI (i.e. they would never launch the "OSX App"). Windows 8 will be the same.
post #166 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

No. I think we are getting our terminology mixed up.

The "classic" desktop UI elements have been given a metro "look and feel" overhaul (just like Lion updated UI elements in OSX) and applications written for the "classic" Windows desktop will automatically have this style applied. However classic desktop apps do not run in the start screen UI.

Imagine if Apple made a "OSX App" on iOS that when you opened it displayed a full OSX desktop. When you click on the iPad home button that app was minimized just like your iPad Mail or Safari app would be.

Now imagine if Apple put this version of iOS on all iMacs and MacBooks as well as the iPad.

That is what Microsoft are doing with Windows 8.

If Apple put iOS on an iMac most "mainstream" consumers would never venture outside of that UI (i.e. they would never launch the "OSX App"). Windows 8 will be the same.

A stellar explanation.
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post #167 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

Then they will relegate themselves to simple little applets, instead of full-featured programs. Problem solved!

indeed. and they will buy easy to use iPad's or maybe Android tablets that do that without all the complications of Windows 8.
post #168 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

No. I think we are getting our terminology mixed up.

The "classic" desktop UI elements have been given a metro "look and feel" overhaul (just like Lion updated UI elements in OSX) and applications written for the "classic" Windows desktop will automatically have this style applied. However classic desktop apps do not run in the start screen UI.

Imagine if Apple made a "OSX App" on iOS that when you opened it displayed a full OSX desktop. When you click on the iPad home button that app was minimized just like your iPad Mail or Safari app would be.

Now imagine if Apple put this version of iOS on all iMacs and MacBooks as well as the iPad.

That is what Microsoft are doing with Windows 8.

If Apple put iOS on an iMac most "mainstream" consumers would never venture outside of that UI (i.e. they would never launch the "OSX App"). Windows 8 will be the same.

If Apple put an OS X app on an iPad it would be next to useless because OS X isn't built for touch. That's what iOS is for. Sure, you could dock your iPad and do stuff, but a sub 10" screen isn't much of a desktop experience even if you make it work with a mouse.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "Metro look and feel." There's vastly more to a touch interface than biggish chrome. You have to rethink everything about how the app works, the UI, etc.

Having "Windows" as an app on a tablet is all well and good, but when running that app it means you have a tablet no more useful than the original Windows tablets that are generally recognized as being abysmal failures.
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post #169 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Yes, I also used those tablets. Going back to Windows 3.11. Different size screens, from 6" to 12", black and white LCD to color. Used mostly with a stylus. Microsoft literature will sometimes call it "pen computer" but it was always a tablet. Battery life was pathetic on most hardware. And they were heavy as notebooks and usually more expensive than a notebook.

There were two major problems with Microsoft's vision for tablets back then:
(1) No reason to buy a tablet. Windows tablets were not defined by capabilities not found in Windows laptops, nor was it defined by a different user experience. It was defined by the ability to run conventional Windows on a tablet. That aspect had no obvious appeal (other than, gee, that's kind of neat). At the time, the thinking was that tablets needed a "killer app" that would finally give consumers a reason to buy tablets over conventional laptops.

(2) Windows tablets were basically modified laptops. Not just conceptually, but literally speaking. Some tablets had swivel screens that allowed you to fold the keyboard behind the screen. They had fans, hard drives, they weighed over 5lbs. and short battery lifes. And the Windows with Pen Extensions was just regular Windows with a virtual keyboard and support for pen input drivers. Most devices had modifier buttons so you could "right-click". It was always more awkward to use over a conventional laptop. Newtons, which were around in 1997, had a better pen input user experience over heavy, pen-enabled conventional Windows tablets.

Given the choice between a Windows tablet and a Windows laptop, for the purpose of running conventional Windows applications (as opposed to some fabled "killer tablet app"), why would anyone choose the tablet?

Thanks for the info.
post #170 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHrubik View Post

I suppose by failure you mean years of testing. It's worked out pretty well for them because they've built up more tablet experience than any software company on the planet. Even clunky they made tablets work even when the software wasn't designed to be used that way. Imagine what's going to happen now that the software is actually designed to take advatage of all tablets have to offer.

Let me get this right. MSFT has been working on tablets and touch for over 10 years. They've had a "tablet", all be it "clunky but they made them work"? But guess what? No one bought them! But hey, as you say, they are "the most experienced" in tablets? But "the software wasn't designed to be used that way"? WTF!!!!!! Oh, but now they get it! Even though a therefore seriously less experienced company (Apple) by your logic has fed them their lunch in both mobile and tablets as consumers don't want MSFT's version, even with ALL THAT EXPERIENCE!!!!!! ROFLOL ROFLOL ROFLOL
post #171 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by hittrj01 View Post

I understand an Apple site needs to spin this to give Apple a positive look, and in regards to Samsung, this is just getting shameless. But OTOH, having been running this developer preview (admittedly only for a couple hours), I absolutely love it. We'll see after a couple weeks when the new OS smell wears off, but it is faster than Win7 was on the same machine. I've installed iTunes, Flash, Office 2010, Java, Chrome, and Eclipse (Java dev tool), and everything has been running flawlessly. For a "pre-beta", I am absolutely floored. I can't believe I'm saying this, but so far so good Microsoft!

Troll. Battery life? Heat? Since the Metro UI is bolted on to Windows 7, why shouldn't the developer preview work? Did you install it on a non-Windows 7 tablet?
post #172 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I'm not sure what you mean by a "Metro look and feel." There's vastly more to a touch interface than biggish chrome. You have to rethink everything about how the app works, the UI, etc.

Here is IE in the in Windows 7 and the "classic desktop" of Windows 8. The changes are subtle, analogous to what Apple did between Snow Leopard and Lion.




Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

If Apple put an OS X app on an iPad it would be next to useless because OS X isn't built for touch.

Exactly. Most people would never load the OSX app whilst using the iPad as a tablet, just as most people will never launch the "classic desktop" app in Windows 8 whilst using it as a tablet.

However there are other use cases that become apparent when this functionality is available.

For example you could have an iPad-like device with an 11" screen that docks into a Mac Book Air chassis and can be used as an iPad/Mac Book Air hybrid.

You could also dock your iPad into a keyboard/mouse/screen docking station.

Another option that I haven't touched on previously is the ability to have your smart phone dock with a keyboard/mouse/screen to give you a full PC.

This is something that I believe will be very important in emerging markets and might have something to do with the Nokia/Microsoft deal (i.e. Nokia phones are very popular in emerging markets).
post #173 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

Here is IE in the in Windows 7 and the "classic desktop" of Windows 8. The changes are subtle, analogous to what Apple did between Snow Leopard and Lion.

Windows 8 looks like Chrome itself and what Chrome does to OS X.

That is, makes it look hideous by ignoring the OS' design and making up its own.

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post #174 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Windows 8 looks like Chrome itself and what Chrome does to OS X. That is, makes it look hideous by ignoring the OS' design and making up its own.

You came in mid-conversation so you understandably don't understand what we were talking about.

There are two UI's in Windows 8. They don't have names so I'm calling them the "classic desktop" and the "start screen".

Above I showed screen caps from the "classic desktop".

The "start screen" is like the image shown in the article.




I'll quote myself to explain how these work...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

The "classic" desktop UI elements have been given a metro "look and feel" overhaul (just like Lion updated UI elements in OSX) and applications written for the "classic" Windows desktop will automatically have this style applied. However classic desktop apps do not run in the start screen UI.

Imagine if Apple made a "OSX App" on iOS that when you opened it displayed a full OSX desktop. When you click on the iPad home button that app was minimized just like your iPad Mail or Safari app would be.

Now imagine if Apple put this version of iOS on all iMacs and MacBooks as well as the iPad.

That is what Microsoft are doing with Windows 8.
post #175 of 206
One thing that's really being missed in all of this is what apps developers are going to bring to the platform. I would think of the start screen as less to do with your normal windows apps and more to do with what you currently have on your smartphone.

Who has an app for stuff like recipes? Do you have on one your pc to? Probably not as you just go to a website instead. With this simple look and feel, and a tile on your start screen for a recipe of the day you might. I can see people really starting to get pc versions of there phone apps on this.

As an app developer the best bit of news in all of this is, in around 2/3 years there's going to be 450,000,000 machines running Windows 8 that I can easily sell to.
post #176 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post

One thing that's really being missed in all of this is what apps developers are going to bring to the platform. I would think of the start screen as less to do with your normal windows apps and more to do with what you currently have on your smartphone.

Who has an app for stuff like recipes? Do you have on one your pc to? Probably not as you just go to a website instead. With this simple look and feel, and a tile on your start screen for a recipe of the day you might. I can see people really starting to get pc versions of there phone apps on this.

As an app developer the best bit of news in all of this is, in around 2/3 years there's going to be 450,000,000 machines running Windows 8 that I can easily sell to.

Definitely. The gold rush on the Windows app store is going to be unprecedented.
post #177 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackthemac View Post

Even without the fan (pauses to keep face straight) is anyone going to buy this POS ?

There must be some smart people at Microsoft and at Samsung. So why is it all they can come up with is junk like this ? They can't even make a product that gives the iPad a run for its money, let alone bring something new and innovative to the tablet form. By the time this hits the market Apple will have moved on, and MS won't even have reached the point where the puck had been.

This must be an all time low for Microsoft and Samsung: it should never have been revealed to the public.

Can anyone explain why MS completely fail to understand design aesthetics on every level ?

Just to add to my comments: read Dan Dilger on the matter
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2011/0...-taste-of-bob/

As perceptive an analysis as to why Windows 8 will fail as you will find.
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post #178 of 206
Who knows system requirements for the new Windows?
post #179 of 206
MS could have success with a tablet if they did these things:
1. Have a form factor similar to an iPad. No fan BS.
2. Quick sleep and wake
3. Allow for file management (unlike Apple)
4. Interface with their hugely popular XBox 360 (lots of potential here. Imagine the in-game possibilities.)
5. Use a completely different OS. A standalone mobile OS...one without registries.

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post #180 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

You came in mid-conversation so you understandably don't understand what we were talking about.

I know exactly what you're all talking about. I'm just saying that Windows 8 proper looks like Chrome. They can't seem to do squat on their own.

And it is proper. People are going to panic when they see that overlay. They want their line at the bottom with the time on the right. They want their blue E in the top left. And they want their stretched, tiled, or centered picture that is too small for the screen to show up.

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post #181 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abookin View Post

Who knows system requirements for the new Windows?

Same as Windows 7 but it uses considerably less resources.
post #182 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneaburns View Post

MS could have success with a tablet if they did these things:
1. Have a form factor similar to an iPad. No fan BS.
2. Quick sleep and wake
3. Allow for file management (unlike Apple)
4. Interface with their hugely popular XBox 360 (lots of potential here. Imagine the in-game possibilities.)
5. Use a completely different OS. A standalone mobile OS...one without registries.

  1. A look at Windows 8 Tablets running on TI, Qualcomm, Nvidia, AMD and Intel silicon
  2. As little as 8 second boot time. Sleep/wake seem instant. More importantly standby power consumption has been improved.
  3. It's there if you want it. However, chances are with contracts you won't be using the file system often. The idea of contracts is a big deal and is something that is going to sell systems. Have a look at this video at 49:45.
  4. Confirmed.
  5. I don't think the registry is available from WinRT - the new Windows runtime that drives the metro "start screen" UI. I'll have to confirm that though.
post #183 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I know exactly what you're all talking about. I'm just saying that Windows 8 proper looks like Chrome. They can't seem to do squat on their own.

You've lost me. The Windows 8 "classic desktop" looks like Chrome what? Google's browser?
post #184 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

You've lost me. The Windows 8 "classic desktop" looks like Chrome what? Google's browser?

Yeah. What other Chrome is there in computing?

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post #185 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackthemac View Post

Just to add to my comments: read Dan Dilger on the matter
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2011/0...-taste-of-bob/

As perceptive an analysis as to why Windows 8 will fail as you will find.

Got about half way before I couldn't be bothered to read any more. The guy is clearly an idiot with statements like "Microsoft is struggling to remain relevant". Now Microsofts main market has always been the OS for enterprise and the Office package for enterprise and so far they haven't lost any sales in either. Xbox doesn't seem to be doing to badly either.

Also completely missed out by anyone is the fact millions and millions of people will use Windows 8 because they will have it at work. So when it comes to selling tablets, people may actually like it because they know it and they've technically already used it. Right now people looking at android tablets just go WTF, what does it do? Same reason nobody's going out buying a linux pc.

Anyway...

Been playing with Win8 on a non touch screen laptop and have to say it works well. The start screen does actually work as a start menu, I was a bit worried that it would be a bit of a downgrade from Win7's awesome start menu, but things like search are still there but only appear when you start typing. The best way to think of the Start screen is Launchpad merged with Dashboard and Spotlight.

So basically for tablets metro is a great UI for touch. For desktops and laptops, metro is a great start menu, giving you easy access to things like news, tweets and general online services without having to visit a website or open a program.

Some negatives though...

The lock screen is stupid. Having to slide a pic up on a desktop is awful, it should recognise you have a mouse and work on a click, apart from that the customisable notifications on the lock screen are a real plus.

The new ribbon in explorer is just ridiculous, luckily you can hide it, but really, WTF are all those buttons about!!!
post #186 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Also not seeing how "a few lines of code" magically does all the work of converting a desktop UI metaphor to a useable tablet version. Apple has spend a lot of time and effort to write iPad versions of things like the iWork suite, and I'm pretty sure there's more to it than a few lines of code.

I've played with the demo, looked at the dev tools and read a bit of the documentation. Basically you need to write a few lines of code.

Obviously we're talking more than 5 or 6 when we say a few, and your not going to be making something like Photoshop touch friendly. But ultimately all your doing is re-positioning some stuff, making buttons bigger. Your business logic layers going to stay as it is.

With the HTML5 support built in as well, it also looks like without to much pain you could get that running as an app to.
post #187 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Yeah. What other Chrome is there in computing?

Do you gain anything by acting like a jerk? I've gone out of my way to be helpful. I would think you could at least act like a decent human.

Chrome refers to pc widgets in general. They mention the term about 500 times in the Windows 8 keynotes. Also the classic desktop doesn't look like Googles Chrome browser, hence my request for clarification.
post #188 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post

The lock screen is stupid. Having to slide a pic up on a desktop is awful, it should recognise you have a mouse and work on a click, apart from that the customisable notifications on the lock screen are a real plus.

I'd like to see how it feels with a multi-touch trackpad or multi-touch mouse.
post #189 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Yeah. What other Chrome is there in computing?

You don't know about computing if you think "chrome" instantly means Google chrome (unless you are being sarcastic, in which case I have egg on my face) .In computing the "System Chrome" refers to the graphical user interface elements of an operating system or software application. So if I was to alter the system chrome of my application, what I would then effectively be doing is altering or replacing the widget designs.

... at night.

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... at night.

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post #190 of 206
Before people pass judgement on Win 8 they really ought to give this video presentation by Jensen Harris a look. It really is informative as to the philosophy behind Metro UI and how Win 8 tablets should look feel and function when they hit the market. MS presentations in the pasty were usually painful to watch but this one is not. This guy seems to 'get it'.

I have no idea if Win 8 tablets, or Windows 8 in general, will be successful. They are taking quite a gamble IMO. The traditional Windows desktop is taking a back seat to the Metro UI. On a positive note, they have an interesting and unique interface. They have a large developer base and frankly MS can write apps if they need to fill in gaps on the platform. But Win 7 phones running the Metro UI have not exactly lit the world on fire and so MS is betting the farm on a UI that has been for the most part rejected by consumers. I guess time will tell how well this eventually does. I think the marketing strategy may be brilliant. By having the MEtro UI the default UI of WIn 8, a lot of people who aren't familiar with the Metro UI are going to get exposed to it. They may like what they see and give Win 7 phones and Win 8 tablets consideration.
post #191 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post

You don't know about computing if you think "chrome" instantly means Google chrome (unless you are being sarcastic, in which case I have egg on my face) .In computing the "System Chrome" refers to the graphical user interface elements of an operating system or software application. So if I was to alter the system chrome of my application, what I would then effectively be doing is altering or replacing the widget designs.

I have never heard that once in any paper I have read, any website I have visited, any research I have done, nor any class I have taken.

It's just not the case.

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post #192 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I have never heard that once in any paper I have read, any website I have visited, any research I have done, nor any class I have taken.

It's just not the case.

I think its more "off the books", as it were. One or two references to it I've read in some past papers at University, caught my old HCI lecturer saying it from time to time and when developing for Adobe AIR you can choose to have a "custom chrome" (create your own window widgets) or use the system chrome (default OS skin).

... at night.

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... at night.

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post #193 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post

In computing the "System Chrome" refers to the graphical user interface elements of an operating system or software application. So if I was to alter the system chrome of my application, what I would then effectively be doing is altering or replacing the widget designs.

What??? I have honestly never heard of that term before.
post #194 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackthemac View Post

Just to add to my comments: read Dan Dilger on the matter
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2011/0...-taste-of-bob/

As perceptive an analysis as to why Windows 8 will fail as you will find.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackthemac View Post

Just to add to my comments: read Dan Dilger on the matter
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2011/0...-taste-of-bob/

As perceptive an analysis as to why Windows 8 will fail as you will find.

As perceptive as this one, where he predicts Android to crash and burn in 2010?
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2010/0...crash-in-2010/
Or this one where he stated vehemently that Apple would never have a Verizon iPhone?
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/0...zon/#more-3498

DED digs up a lot of good info, and certainly has some well-placed sources. Many of his comments are truly insightful and I honestly enjoy reading his articles, even if they're often a bit sensationalist. I would not depend on him for my sole impression on why something will fail or succeed though. His readers gravitate to him because he sees the tech-world thru Apple-green glasses. He's the ultimate "rabid-fanboy", or at least he plays one very well (I'm not convinced he really means all that he writes).

By no means is this a hit on DED. He is who he is, and has certainly seen success and attention by writing over-the-top commentary. The blogoshere is well-covered by timid writers and we need "DED's" to shake things up and stimulate discussion.

My hat's off to him. Just understand he doesn't even pretend to be objective.
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post #195 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post

I've played with the demo, looked at the dev tools and read a bit of the documentation. Basically you need to write a few lines of code.

Obviously we're talking more than 5 or 6 when we say a few, and your not going to be making something like Photoshop touch friendly. But ultimately all your doing is re-positioning some stuff, making buttons bigger. Your business logic layers going to stay as it is.

With the HTML5 support built in as well, it also looks like without to much pain you could get that running as an app to.

Well, see, I think that's a problem. As I've said, if your response to making an app "touch friendly" is to make buttons bigger and reposition some stuff then you've failed. You got a bunch of Windows apps with an awkward interface and little consistency between them, which is basically the model that MS has been failing at for years. You get Windows 7 Touch Edition with a nicer overlay.

Now, I've watched the talk on making good Metro apps, and MS is providing a template for new apps so they have consistency. But it doesn't look like that applies to ported apps, and guess which category is going to be bigger? Especially when MS is pitching how easy it is to just make some button bigger and whatnot?

Again, as I've been saying, this kind of thing, plus the fallback Windows environment, really encourages the path of least resistance. I can't see a great deal of incentive for developers to write great Metro apps, or to take care with moving big apps over, when they can default to Windows or just do a cursory touch job.

My guess is we'll see a bunch of Twitter clients, Facebook apps, weather apps, friend feeds, photo sharing apps, etc. right out of the gate. In other words, widgets made big by Metro, and positioned as first class citizens. Productivity apps are going to be thin on the ground to non-existant, and with MS probably having no plans at all to offer a Metro Office.

Meanwhile, Apple isn't playing games with a "few lines of code" transition from OS X (although I'm sure it would be technically possible) because they know that real tablet apps have to be designed from the ground up. And they're clearly intent on pushing the boundaries of what you can do on a tablet, with each iteration of iWork for the iPad gaining ground on its desktop analog. They're doing that because the iPad doesn't have OS X to fall back on, and Apple doesn't think that that's where the puck will be. They think touch is the next mainstream computing paradigm, and they're not content to leave the heavy lifting to desktops. Clearly, MS is, and if they're wrong they've possibly made their last big mistake.
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post #196 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Well, see, I think that's a problem. As I've said, if your response to making an app "touch friendly" is to make buttons bigger and reposition some stuff then you've failed. You got a bunch of Windows apps with an awkward interface and little consistency between them, which is basically the model that MS has been failing at for years. You get Windows 7 Touch Edition with a nicer overlay.

Now, I've watched the talk on making good Metro apps, and MS is providing a template for new apps so they have consistency. But it doesn't look like that applies to ported apps, and guess which category is going to be bigger? Especially when MS is pitching how easy it is to just make some button bigger and whatnot?

Again, as I've been saying, this kind of thing, plus the fallback Windows environment, really encourages the path of least resistance. I can't see a great deal of incentive for developers to write great Metro apps, or to take care with moving big apps over, when they can default to Windows or just do a cursory touch job.

My guess is we'll see a bunch of Twitter clients, Facebook apps, weather apps, friend feeds, photo sharing apps, etc. right out of the gate. In other words, widgets made big by Metro, and positioned as first class citizens. Productivity apps are going to be thin on the ground to non-existant, and with MS probably having no plans at all to offer a Metro Office.

Meanwhile, Apple isn't playing games with a "few lines of code" transition from OS X (although I'm sure it would be technically possible) because they know that real tablet apps have to be designed from the ground up. And they're clearly intent on pushing the boundaries of what you can do on a tablet, with each iteration of iWork for the iPad gaining ground on its desktop analog. They're doing that because the iPad doesn't have OS X to fall back on, and Apple doesn't think that that's where the puck will be. They think touch is the next mainstream computing paradigm, and they're not content to leave the heavy lifting to desktops. Clearly, MS is, and if they're wrong they've possibly made their last big mistake.

Your logic falls down with the comparison to iPad. Porting an OS X app to iPad would also be just changing a few lines if code if it wernt for the fact iOS doesn't have exactly the same api's. The vast majority of code in an app is in the business logic layer. The UI in comparison is a lot smaller hence the term "just a few lines of code".

Apps are still going to be desinged just as well as iPad apps. Competition in the app store forces that to happen.
post #197 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post

Your logic falls down with the comparison to iPad. Porting an OS X app to iPad would also be just changing a few lines if code if it wernt for the fact iOS doesn't have exactly the same api's. The vast majority of code in an app is in the business logic layer. The UI in comparison is a lot smaller hence the term "just a few lines of code".

Apps are still going to be desinged just as well as iPad apps. Competition in the app store forces that to happen.

I don't think you're reading what I'm saying. It's not lines of code, it's design. The UI is everything for a touch app; it's vastly more important than reusing code from a business logic layer.

iOS has different api's than iOS because that's how they want it, they want a distinction. You don't hear Apple bragging about how easy it is to bump your OS X app over to iOS because it's not easy. Sure, you can reuse code, but rethinking a desktop app for touch is hard work.

MS has basically hung out a welcome sign: your half-assed ports welcome. Else why brag about the few lines of code? They're saying it's really easy, trivial really, to get your Windows desktop app ready for Metro. And I'm saying that merely functioning is the least of it, and by doing that you're inviting trouble.

I can't see where an app store is going to magically make all the apps great. The iPad has great apps because it's hugely popular and a lot of people are developing specifically for that platform, because Apple has enforced some discipline around how apps work, interact and look, and because Apple has led by example.

You can claim that Metro will suddenly have Windows like numbers and so be hugely popular as well, but that just means you have a lot of Windows developers being encouraged to move their apps over as quickly as possible. Which means a great many not very great apps. Just like always in Windows land, I guess.

And even though I expect there will be some great looking, well functioning apps for Metro to come, I suspect they'll largely be things like Twitter clients and other feed centric stuff, since that seems to be where MS thinks the strength of the environment lies (given all the examples so far). Who's going to write Garageband for Metro? Omnigraffle? Keynote? Does Metro even work with those kind of apps? I ask, because all they've shown are phone level stuff-- weather feeds, media lists, contacts and the like. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how this design language lends itself to a productivity app-- but then again it seems like Microsoft's answer to that is that's what Windows is for.
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post #198 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

MS has basically hung out a welcome sign: your half-assed ports welcome.
.

I didn't see it that way. In fact I think they went out of their way to say that is NOT how they want apps developed.

Certainly they have no control over the quality of apps that 3 rd party developers write but I'd say they are encouraging them to do things the Metro way.

With MS developing an app store, which AFAIK will be only way to get Metro apps, it'll be interesting how hard of a stance they take on apps that are not written the way they recommend.
post #199 of 206
9to5Mac has a video side-by-side of an iPad w/iOS5 and MS slate with Windows8 . Interesting to say the least.

http://9to5mac.com/2011/09/15/ipad-2...ndows-8-slate/
melior diabolus quem scies
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melior diabolus quem scies
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post #200 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

I didn't see it that way. In fact I think they went out of their way to say that is NOT how they want apps developed.

Certainly they have no control over the quality of apps that 3 rd party developers write but I'd say they are encouraging them to do things the Metro way.

With MS developing an app store, which AFAIK will be only way to get Metro apps, it'll be interesting how hard of a stance they take on apps that are not written the way they recommend.

Absolutely, I think that MS is saying that they want quality apps that use Metro conventions and they've provided templates to move that along.

However, they are also making a point of saying how easy it is to convert your legacy Windows apps, and those are two contradictory stances-- I would say a contradiction baked right into Microsoft's strategy of bolting Metro to Windows.

I mean, naturally you want the highest quality apps possible on your platform, it's just that you can't be super serious about that while also celebrating the fact that that huge back-catalog of mostly mediocre to terrible apps are just a checkbox or two away from joining the party,
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