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Microsoft to jettison Adobe Flash with 'plug-in free' browsing in Windows 8 Metro IE10

post #1 of 120
Thread Starter 
The tablet-optimized Metro version of Internet Explorer 10 in Microsoft's upcoming Windows 8 will be a "plug-in free experience," as the company follows Apple's lead in abandoning Adobe Flash in favor of HTML5 on tablets.

Microsoft revealed Wednesday on its Building Windows 8 blog that the Metro version of IE10 will drop plug-ins because the experience that they provide is "not a good match with Metro style browsing and the modern HTML5 web." The company will, however, continue to support Adobe Flash and other plug-ins on the desktop version of Internet Explorer 10.

Metro is Microsoft's name for the custom interface and touch layer for tablet devices built into Windows 8 . The Redmond, Wash., software company offered up details on Windows 8 at its Build conference in Southern California this week, providing developers with a "pre-beta" version loaded on a Intel Core i5-powered Samsung tablet.

IE team lead Dean Hachamovitch wrote in the post that going plug-in free in for the Metro version of IE10 "improves battery life as well as security, reliability and privacy for consumers."

"Plug-ins were important early on in the webs history. But the web has come a long way since then with HTML5. Providing compatibility with legacy plug-in technologies would detract from, rather than improve, the consumer experience of browsing in the Metro style UI," he noted.



Microsoft invested significant time researching the decision. The IE team examined the top 97,000 sites around the world, determining that, of the 62 percent of those sites that use Flash, many of them already have an HTML5 option as well. Beyond Flash, other plug-ins were rare, with the next most common one used on just 2 percent of sites examined.

"Most sites work fine in IE without plug-ins; others work fine in IE when IE identifies itself as another browser or runs the site in a different mode," Hachamovitch noted, adding that users can tap a "Use Desktop View" button from the Metro style app to view sites that require Microsoft's own legacy ActiveX controls.

For its part, Apple has made known its commitment to open web standards over proprietary technologies. "Every new Apple mobile device and every new Mac along with the latest version of Apples Safari web browser supports web standards including HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. These web standards are open, reliable, highly secure, and efficient," the company's page on HTML5 reads.

Former Apple CEO Steve Jobs criticized Flash last year after receiving numerous complaints about the technology's incompatibility with iOS. He presented six points condemning Flash -- openness; the "full Web;" reliability, security and performance; battery life; touch; and the substandard quality of third-party development tools.

Adobe appears to be gradually conceding ground to HTML5. Last week, the company announced support for HTML5 video in an upcoming version of its Flash Media Server product. Though Adobe billed the added feature as being able to "deliver Flash technology to Apple iPhone and iPad devices," the tool simply adds the ability to serve standards-based HTML5 video.

But, Apple has also relinquished some control over the iOS platform with respect to Flash. Last fall, the iPad maker removed its ban on third-party development tools, paving the way for Adobe to release tools that create iOS-friendly versions of Flash applications.
post #2 of 120
Yet another nail in Flash's coffin!

But, but, but... I'm ENTITLED to decide to put Flash on any device I own! Flash is a web standard! How dare Apple and now Microsoft deny me freedom of choice!
Its a conspiracy to control the web!! It's a ... Oooh!! Unicorn!!!!

</sarcasm>
post #3 of 120
post #4 of 120
Apple is to the tech industry as Nicolaus Copernicus is to heliocentric cosmology.
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post #5 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


post #6 of 120
And they said Apple's Steve Jobs was wrong...when he jettisoned Flash..?
Just like they said he was wrong about tablet form factor.
post #7 of 120
I'm really proud that MS is finally getting it. Good on them.
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post #8 of 120
Wow .. seriously. Does M$ really, really need to copy almost everything that Apple does?
post #9 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Guy View Post

Wow .. seriously. Does M$ really, really need to copy almost everything that Apple does?

In this case, yes. It's almost the end of 2011 and Adobe still hasn't gotten Flash to be a decent plug-in for consumers. For developers, that's another story, but for consumers it's still a resource hogging, crash-prone disaster.
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post #10 of 120
Finally, something Apple and Microsoft fanboys can agree on!
post #11 of 120
I agree this is a great place to follow Apple's actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Guy View Post

Wow .. seriously. Does M$ really, really need to copy almost everything that Apple does?
post #12 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


That is a nail in a coffin if ever I heard of one.
post #13 of 120
BUILD conference attendees that were yesterday handed tablets and a developer version of Windows 8 confirmed that Flash still does not run in the Internet Explorer 10 browser (see image) that came with the new OS and Samsung tablet.

Some took delight in watching frustrated peers attempt to install Flash onto their tablets.

“Just walked through press room and saw two people trying furiously to install Flash on their Win8 tablets. LOL,” wrote the editor of a series of Windows books, Jon Hassell.

Even a former Australian Microsoftie, Scott Barnes, was disappointed after attempting to revive his daughter’s EEPC with Windows 8.

“I put win8 on my eepc.. was hoping to use that as my 4yr daughters laptop for Penguinclub but..flash dont work...bah! ,” he Tweeted.


Flash sort of makes it on Windows 8
post #14 of 120
I have to admit that Microsoft lately acts like Google as we used to know it, and Google with its commitment to Flash, copying, stealing, refusing to innovates is getting more like Microsoft

Time to switch Google search to Bing and Gmail to me.com?
I think it is.
post #15 of 120
So can we expect Shantanu Narayen to issue a point by point refutation of Microsoft's statements?

It sure seems like they repeated some things from Steve Jobs' open letter, which Narayen said were "patently false".
post #16 of 120
When the hell has the industry NOT followed Apple's lead, on anything? Apple is always mocked/ridiculous/insulted at first, but ultimately, wthether its months or years later, everyone follows suit. You just need to step back and see the big picture, which is what Apple always does when they make these decisions. Its just that noone has the guts to put the stake in the ground as Apple does- so they avoid the risk, as well as the potential rewards.
post #17 of 120
This is great news for consumers.
post #18 of 120
I do like it when we get statements like this, "we decided not to implement this functionality to benefit our users". Coincidently it also meant we had to do less work.

In this case though I do agree. Flash IMO should only ever be used for video. Microsofts approach of having a metro ie and normal ie also means that when you do get to a video you still have the option to view it, rather than current smartphones and tablets where your just left having to switch to a pc. I wonder if a future option could be to enable plugins per instance of them on a page. E.g. When a page has a flash video you first click to enable flash on that zone and then when you navigate away flash is turned off again. That could help save battery life without limiting the device.

What I don't get though is Adobes had this issue for a while. To me the solution would be to release a browser with flash built in. Might be a bit borderline for getting past the iOS restrictions.
post #19 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post

I do like it when we get statements like this, "we decided not to implement this functionality to benefit our users". Coincidently it also meant we had to do less work.

In this case though I do agree. Flash IMO should only ever be used for video. Microsofts approach of having a metro ie and normal ie also means that when you do get to a video you still have the option to view it, rather than current smartphones and tablets where your just left having to switch to a pc. I wonder if a future option could be to enable plugins per instance of them on a page. E.g. When a page has a flash video you first click to enable flash on that zone and then when you navigate away flash is turned off again. That could help save battery life without limiting the device.

What I don't get though is Adobes had this issue for a while. To me the solution would be to release a browser with flash built in. Might be a bit borderline for getting past the iOS restrictions.

Or you could save a lot more battery by running video natively in HTML or native APIs. Crazy idea that's been working for years.
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post #20 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Or you could save a lot more battery by running video natively in HTML or native APIs. Crazy idea that's been working for years.

But the point is that the content is in flash not html5. If everything used a standard video format then it would be fine. But we're now 4 years on from the origional iPhone and I still constantly read articles where the video is in flash. Each time the is no option but to switch to something that supports flash. So when you say "crazy idea that's been working for years", that's basically like saying we've fixed the problem for draining batterys while watching videos, we just took out the video functionality. Next step, eliminate the high battery usage problem when making phone calls by removing the phone functionality.
post #21 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post

But the point is that the content is in flash not html5. If everything used a standard video format then it would be fine. But we're now 4 years on from the origional iPhone and I still constantly read articles where the video is in flash. Each time the is no option but to switch to something that supports flash. So when you say "crazy idea that's been working for years", that's basically like saying we've fixed the problem for draining batterys while watching videos, we just took out the video functionality. Next step, eliminate the high battery usage problem when making phone calls by removing the phone functionality.

What major and relevant sites are these that don't support modern codecs in HTML5 or native APIs?
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post #22 of 120
MS dropping Flash is no surprise, considering they showed off their IDE and IE running HTML5 over a year ago.

What I find curious, is why does everyone (here at least) assume that Apple (or MS for that matter) makes their decisions based a whim, fancy, personal dislike of a company... or just plain "from the seat of their pants".

Apple/MS have reverse engineered Adobe's Flash, had access to it and the open source parts of it for years. The engineers responsible reported back to the Steve's, "this isn't ever going to work as it is. Adobe will have to rewrite it from the ground up, or create a converter".

Both Steve's reply, "OK. We'll wait for one or the other, but that crash-prone dung-heap of inefficient and insecure legacy code will never be put on any of our mobile devices... write the press release".

That's it. No guessing. No personal vendettas to avenge. Just plain simple reaction to facts in front of their eyes.

That Adobe doesn't want to acknowledge, address, or accept those facts without spouting BS and vitriol, is biz as usual. However... I guess they "finally" got it... considering the server tool converter and that other lab project they're working on, Edge.

One has to wonder why it had to come down to a mud-match first.
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post #23 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkalu View Post

And they said Apple's Steve Jobs was wrong...when he jettisoned Flash..?
Just like they said he was wrong about tablet form factor.

Just because it doesn't come preinstalled doesn't mean it's unsupported. It'll be a plugin just like it is for Firefox, Opera, Safari, etc. HTML5 doesn't hold a candle to the capabilities of Flash.
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post #24 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreytgilbert View Post

Just because it doesn't come preinstalled doesn't mean it's unsupported. It'll be a plugin just like it is for Firefox, Opera, Safari, etc. HTML5 doesn't hold a candle to the capabilities of Flash.

Well, you need to read the news article properly. IE Metro will not support plugins (which means it does not support flash). It is not about being pre-installed or not. It is not possible to install the flash plugin an IE Metro. Regarding the capabilities of Flash, well website developers need to stop using those "capabilities" then, since we the consumers are not going to use Flash!! Simple!!
post #25 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

What major and relevant sites are these that don't support modern codecs in HTML5 or native APIs?

The only one that I find to be a nuisance is BBC.co.uk - the football (soccer) highlights are not shown via their iphone/ipad app and are flash only on the normal web page.
post #26 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Guy View Post

Wow .. seriously. Does M$ really, really need to copy almost everything that Apple does?

Better learn a different technology other than Flash.
post #27 of 120
That's hilarious. So MS is dumping flash now? Sometimes I see morons defending Flash and bashing Apple for not having Flash on their iOS devices and I wonder what kind of morons actually need flash in 2011?

(1) Morons who just love advertising so much that they will miss a million different blinking banners when they visit certain sites.

(2) People with such low standards and bad taste that they must rely on crappy quality flash run video sites on the web to watch tv series and porn.

(3) People who like to play silly Flash games on the web.

I'm glad to say that none of the above applies to me. I don't like pushy advertising, I only like to watch very high quality videos and if I'm first going to play a game, it's not going to be a dumb Flash game on the web made for 5 year olds.
post #28 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdyB View Post

The only one that I find to be a nuisance is BBC.co.uk - the football (soccer) highlights are not shown via their iphone/ipad app and are flash only on the normal web page.

If you have ios device then you must have ESPN Goals, they show them on Saturday eves and real time on Sundays. Excellent little app (UK based).
post #29 of 120
and you have to pay for this new "patch"

which is the microsoft way.

im looking forward to windows 7, cause no matter what you say, vista sucks overall i havent seen a computer yet that hasnt had any problems with it.
post #30 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Guy View Post

Wow .. seriously. Does M$ really, really need to copy almost everything that Apple does?

LOL.. the trolls are out early today.. oh wait. I forgot. It's AI... the home of the troll.
post #31 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

That's hilarious. So MS is dumping flash now? Sometimes I see morons defending Flash and bashing Apple for not having Flash on their iOS devices and I wonder what kind of morons actually need flash in 2011?

(1) Morons who just love advertising so much that they will miss a million different blinking banners when they visit certain sites.

(2) People with such low standards and bad taste that they must rely on crappy quality flash run video sites on the web to watch tv series and porn.

(3) People who like to play silly Flash games on the web.

I'm glad to say that none of the above applies to me. I don't like pushy advertising, I only like to watch very high quality videos and if I'm first going to play a game, it's not going to be a dumb Flash game on the web made for 5 year olds.

To be fair, I don't think "making blinking ads in HTML5" is rocket science... But at least they'll have to learn a new technology if they want to continue annoying us


Quote:
Originally Posted by BrealpaceVers View Post

[...]im looking forward to windows 7, cause no matter what you say, vista sucks overall i havent seen a computer yet that hasnt had any problems with it.

That must be rhetoric, since I don't think anybody will defend Vista at this point.
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post #32 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

That's hilarious. So MS is dumping flash now? Sometimes I see morons defending Flash and bashing Apple for not having Flash on their iOS devices and I wonder what kind of morons actually need flash in 2011?

(1) Morons who just love advertising so much that they will miss a million different blinking banners when they visit certain sites.

(2) People with such low standards and bad taste that they must rely on crappy quality flash run video sites on the web to watch tv series and porn.

(3) People who like to play silly Flash games on the web.

I'm glad to say that none of the above applies to me. I don't like pushy advertising, I only like to watch very high quality videos and if I'm first going to play a game, it's not going to be a dumb Flash game on the web made for 5 year olds.

Those Flash games will be replaced with WebGL/WebCL sooner rather than later. ImgTec is bringing OpenRL to Khronos which will make games even more interesting from the Embedded space to the Desktop.

OpenRL is:

http://imgtec.com/News/Release/index.asp?NewsID=639

Quote:
Vancouver, Canada, 9 August 2011: Imagination Technologies, a leading multimedia and communications technologies company, is showing with partners the first examples of a growing portfolio of solutions based on the new Brazil 3.0 beta interactive ray tracing renderer, built using Imaginations ground-breaking Caustic ray tracing technologies including the OpenRL API, at SIGGRAPH 2011 in Vancouver Canada (Booth 129, August 9-11).

Imagination is demonstrating the beta version of its powerful new rendering engine, called Brazil 3.0, to address the next generation of high quality fully interactive ray traced rendering across a broad range of markets from CAD and industrial design through to gaming and cinematic quality content creation. Brazil 3.0 embraces the features and capabilities of a world class renderer, but introduces fully dynamic geometry support enabling full rendering and manipulation of ray traced rendered objects on the fly.

Brazil 3.0 is a completely new renderer implementation, designed from the ground up for real-time, interactive high quality visualization. Thanks to the speed of Brazil 3.0, users can now edit everything in a scene on the fly including geometry, lights, materials and shaders - enabling truly interactive real-time high quality ray tracing-based visualization.

Brazil 3.0 is built using OpenRL, Imaginations ray tracing API that it intends to promote as an open industry standard. OpenRL is designed to work on any graphics hardware, including Imaginations forthcoming Caustic Professional ray-tracing board level solutions.
post #33 of 120
So if you really need Flash on a tablet, you can use any of Windows standard browsers by going back to Explorer? Fair enough, I guess.
post #34 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

What major and relevant sites are these that don't support modern codecs in HTML5 or native APIs?

The two that annoy me the most would be Engadget and BBC Radio 1. Plus whenever your following a link to a video on a blog or other smaller site, 30 - 40% of the time there in flash.
post #35 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Those Flash games will be replaced with WebGL/WebCL sooner rather than later. ImgTec is bringing OpenRL to Khronos which will make games even more interesting from the Embedded space to the Desktop.

OpenRL is:

http://imgtec.com/News/Release/index.asp?NewsID=639

So that day has come... incredible. Still remember using POV-Ray 3.x in 1998!!
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post #36 of 120
That is what I am doing. I use Bing. Occasionally, I will switch to Google search, but Bing has greatly improved. Moreover, it gives you points you can trade in for things like X-Box points.


When iCloud is released, GMail will be relegated to junk mail. I suspect Gmail will take a big hit as it benefited greatly from Apple makings its once free email paid.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jason98 View Post

Time to switch Google search to Bing and Gmail to me.com?
I think it is.
post #37 of 120
The big porn sites have iOS specific sites that load, which by default replaces the flash video with higher quality HTML video.

Try it out. youporn is my favorite site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Apple

(2) People with such low standards and bad taste that they must rely on crappy quality flash run video sites on the web to watch tv series and porn.
post #38 of 120
Most website I have encountered use Flash as the default, but have HTML as a back up for Mobile devices.

Moreover, Microsoft is essentially facilitating the adoption of HTML by making this announcement. Hold out website developers will start saying, hey if we want Mobile users to see these sites, we better start using HTML 5.

Apple has already made huge inroads here, but with Microsoft saying the same thing, the message becomes even more clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post

But the point is that the content is in flash not html5.
post #39 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

That is what I am doing. I use Bing. Occasionally, I will switch to Google search, but Bing has greatly improved. Moreover, it gives you points you can trade in for things like X-Box points.


When iCloud is released, GMail will be relegated to junk mail. I suspect Gmail will take a big hit as it benefited greatly from Apple makings its once free email paid.

GMail's security features (specifically their two step mobile authentication) are second to none. Unless Apple can match this, I won't even bother trying MobileMe or iCloud.

Apple needs to learn that it is no longer sufficient to protect something as important as an email account with only a password.
post #40 of 120
Uh-Oh!

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