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Microsoft again clarifies that Windows 8 tablets won't actually run Windows apps - Page 4

post #121 of 136
9/16/11 at 9:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrstep View Post

I half agree - there are generally fewer choices, but they're typically much nicer. Having moved from Windows myself, there is ONE app that I still run in vmware for photo stitching, and every time I get into that awful Windows UI paradigm it makes me want to barf. But the stitched pictures turn out nicely.

Which photo stitching app? Last time I looked there were some good ones on the Mac (some freebies) and even a few on the iPhone/iPad.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #122 of 136
9/16/11 at 10:50am
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned -- the ability to run apps designed for mobile (ARM) tablet or phone on a unified x86 desktop (on a floortop, desktop computer, laptop or server).

This may be the real story (and underlying brilliance) of the Windows 8 offering.

This, also, appears to be what HP was planning -- put a WebOS layer on top of Windows on HP x86 boxes.

This is what Apple may be (or appears to be) positioning themselves to do with iOS and OS X Lion.

Google does not appear to have a player in this game -- neither Android nor ChromeOS are poised to deliver mobile apps on a unified desktop.


For this strategy to work, you must have:

1) a robust host desktop OS -- Win, OS X (and to a lesser extent Unix or Linux).

2) access to the host OSes internals from the layered OS and vice versa -- Windows/Metro, Windows/WebOS, Mac OS X/iOS.

3) a large base of mobile apps to run on the layered OS.


Currently, Apple appears to be in the lead -- they have a host OS, Lion, that already does much of what Windows 8 will eventually do on the x86 desktop... although Apple has done it a bit differently! Rather than run an iOS layer atop Mac OS x, Apple has implemented much of what is needed within Lion, itself.

I fully expect a dot upgrade to Lion* in, say, 1Q-2Q 2012, that will support iOS 5 style notifications and other constructs, and support running iOS "universal" apps within the Lion OS (full-screen or windowed -- user's choice).

In addition, Apple already has up and running App Stores for both OS X and iOS apps -- so the infrastructure is there.

Also, Apple has ported some of their consumer apps to run on both platforms (Pages, Numbers, Keynote, iMovie).

Third parties, such as Adobe and Autodesk, have already released what could [almost] be considered "lite" versions of their "pro" apps for the iPad.

Finally, Apple has a significant lead in the number and quality of mobile (ARM) apps and developers.

* When Apple throws the switch it will enable found money -- new app/revenue potential for existing OS X and iOS developers.


While MS may be on the right track with Windows 8, it may be too late when it actually becomes available in late 2012. Sadly, MS should have released "lite" versions of Office apps for the iPad... they would be in a better position to release a full version for Windows 8 -- while gaining knowledge, experience and profits in the process.

That's what I think!


In the meantime, I can hardly wait to run Find My iMac from my iPad
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
Reply
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
Reply
post #123 of 136
9/16/11 at 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"So all this time Microsoft has just been making a touch tablet!" another user complained. "We all thought that they were going to make a tablet that would run legacy desktop apps. The wait is over. Go out and get an iPad."

A variety of enterprise users are already using legacy Windows apps on the iPad, via Citrix, along with other native iOS apps. Whether Microsoft can convince them to switch to Windows 8 remains to be seen. The company was unable to get PC users to switch from the iPod to the Zune, and equally unsuccessful at getting PC iPhone users to switch back to Windows Phone 7.

Summed up in 2 paragraphs.
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post #124 of 136
9/16/11 at 11:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned -- the ability to run apps designed for mobile (ARM) tablet or phone on a unified x86 desktop (on a floortop, desktop computer, laptop or server).

This may be the real story (and underlying brilliance) of the Windows 8 offering.

This, also, appears to be what HP was planning -- put a WebOS layer on top of Windows on HP x86 boxes.

This is what Apple may be (or appears to be) positioning themselves to do with iOS and OS X Lion.

Google does not appear to have a player in this game -- neither Android nor ChromeOS are poised to deliver mobile apps on a unified desktop.

For this strategy to work, you must have:

1) a robust host desktop OS -- Win, OS X (and to a lesser extent Unix or Linux).

2) access to the host OSes internals from the layered OS and vice versa -- Windows/Metro, Windows/WebOS, Mac OS X/iOS.

3) a large base of mobile apps to run on the layered OS.

Currently, Apple appears to be in the lead -- they have a host OS, Lion, that already does much of what Windows 8 will eventually do on the x86 desktop... although Apple has done it a bit differently! Rather than run an iOS layer atop Mac OS x, Apple has implemented much of what is needed within Lion, itself.

I fully expect a dot upgrade to Lion* in, say, 1Q-2Q 2012, that will support iOS 5 style notifications and other constructs, and support running iOS "universal" apps within the Lion OS (full-screen or windowed -- user's choice).

In addition, Apple already has up and running App Stores for both OS X and iOS apps -- so the infrastructure is there.

Also, Apple has ported some of their consumer apps to run on both platforms (Pages, Numbers, Keynote, iMovie).

Third parties, such as Adobe and Autodesk, have already released what could [almost] be considered "lite" versions of their "pro" apps for the iPad.

Finally, Apple has a significant lead in the number and quality of mobile (ARM) apps and developers.

* When Apple throws the switch it will enable found money -- new app/revenue potential for existing OS X and iOS developers.

While MS may be on the right track with Windows 8, it may be too late when it actually becomes available in late 2012. Sadly, MS should have released "lite" versions of Office apps for the iPad... they would be in a better position to release a full version for Windows 8 -- while gaining knowledge, experience and profits in the process.

That's what I think!

In the meantime, I can hardly wait to run Find My iMac from my iPad

well yes, this is clearly the general direction, although different companies are following different paths toward it. For Google it's ALL via The Cloud (altho Chrome OS and Android are very different). MS is trying to create a single top level UI layer across everything (no matter what is running underneath), plus a lot of Cloud. Apple is conflating its desktop and mobile UI's more slowly (even tho the foundation OS is much more unified than either of the other two), and with only selective elements, plus a lot of Cloud too (we'll see exactly what next month).

but it won't be until 2013 that Win8 is really deployed at scale. by then we will be using iOS 6 and probably a major update to both Lion and iCloud too. so it is way way too soon for detailed comparisons.

btw, i'd like to see iOS apps replace widgets in OS Lion Dashboard. some - not all - would be really neat in that role. it would be a great "feature" but something tells me Apple just won't do it. Apple can be minimalist to a fault.
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post #125 of 136
9/16/11 at 2:28pm
Qualcomm based tablet running Windows 8 showing a Flash enabled webpage inside IE 10 Desktop version:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/16/a...#disqus_thread
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post #126 of 136
9/16/11 at 3:14pm
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post #127 of 136
9/16/11 at 3:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garysturn View Post


Oh, hi, broken image link.
PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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post #128 of 136
9/17/11 at 8:52am
I don't get this. Windows applications WILL run on tablets, just not ARM tablets. You wanna run legacy apps, get an x86 tablet.
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post #129 of 136
9/17/11 at 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BUSTER BOT View Post

I don't get this. Windows applications WILL run on tablets, just not ARM tablets. You wanna run legacy apps, get an x86 tablet.

Which is pretty much what MS has been doing to date with tablets, and they suck and they sell poorly. So, yeah, I guess you could do that.
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post #130 of 136
9/17/11 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrstep View Post

I half agree - there are generally fewer choices, but they're typically much nicer.

That always used to be the standard answer. Yeah - Apple has less software, but it is better!

But now there's the App Store, with Billions and Billions served. Now the Apple meme is that you have lots and lots and lots of software! So therefore the iPhone is a better platform! Nobody can match it!

WinPhone7 has fewer titles. Android tablets have fewer titles. That is a big reason why they are less attractive as platforms. Or something like that.

But wait until Android apps outnumber iOS apps. Then we'll come full circle with claims that more != better.
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post #131 of 136
9/17/11 at 10:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Which is pretty much what MS has been doing to date with tablets, and they suck and they sell poorly. So, yeah, I guess you could do that.

Not true. You are COMPLETELY out of touch if you think Windows 7 tablets sold poorly because they ran on x86. You think consumers go "Ugh! that thing has an x86 chip! I hate those!" Obviously, they don't. Windows 7 tablets didn't sell because windows 7 wasn't optimized for touch, and it wasn't pushed at tablet buyers by vendors. Windows 8 IS optimized for touch, and it DOESNT suck on tablets. Haven't you heard developers who got their hands on the Samsung prototype tablet RAVING about windows 8? that was an x86 tablet, if you didn't notice. Windows 8 will run legacy apps well on x86 tablets. The title of this article WAS misinformation.
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post #132 of 136
9/17/11 at 10:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BUSTER BOT View Post

Not true. You are COMPLETELY out of touch if you think Windows 7 tablets sold poorly because they ran on x86. You think consumers go "Ugh! that thing has an x86 chip! I hate those!" Obviously, they don't. Windows 7 tablets didn't sell because windows 7 wasn't optimized for touch, and it wasn't pushed at tablet buyers by vendors. Windows 8 IS optimized for touch, and it DOESNT suck on tablets. Haven't you heard developers who got their hands on the Samsung prototype tablet RAVING about windows 8? that was an x86 tablet, if you didn't notice. Windows 8 will run legacy apps well on x86 tablets. The title of this article WAS misinformation.

No, Metro is optimized for tablets, so unless you've got Metro Office you're still stuck with Windows 8 and it's pretty much the same deal as Windows 7 on a tablet-- and those legacy apps are definitely the same deal. And an x86 tablet is going to have horrible battery life.

So what's different is you have your same shitty Windows tablet except there's that Metro overlay that has some nice widgety apps on it. And when you need to do "real work" you're back in Windows 7 sucks on a tablet land and your battery's dead before you figure out you've been had. Well, not you personally, I suspect you'll never figure it out.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #133 of 136
9/18/11 at 5:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

No, Metro is optimized for tablets, so unless you've got Metro Office you're still stuck with Windows 8...

Ballmer all but confirmed they are doing a Metro Office.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens. Unlike other touch platforms the mouse/keyboard are still first class citizens in Metro, so the Metro version of Office may very well be the main Office used by consumers on not just tablets but convertibles, laptops and desktops as well.
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post #134 of 136
9/18/11 at 8:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

Ballmer all but confirmed they are doing a Metro Office.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens. Unlike other touch platforms the mouse/keyboard are still first class citizens in Metro, so the Metro version of Office may very well be the main Office used by consumers on not just tablets but convertibles, laptops and desktops as well.

I find it unlikely that any tablet version of Word will be used more than word on a real computer. The virtual keyboards are inferior.

Other Office products, like Outlook, maybe. But for heavy lifting, I can't imagine that any tablet interface will be preferred.
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post #135 of 136
9/18/11 at 9:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

I find it unlikely that any tablet version of Word will be used more than word on a real computer. The virtual keyboards are inferior.

Other Office products, like Outlook, maybe. But for heavy lifting, I can't imagine that any tablet interface will be preferred.

I didn't say a tablet version, I said a metro version.

Yes it would work well on a tablet with a touch interface and virtual keyboard, but it would work equally as well on a desktop or notebook with a physical keyboard and mouse.

I think it's entirely possible that a lot of "mainstream" users are going to spend most of their time inside the metro UI and there will be people that buy a Windows 8 PC that literally never see the "classic" desktop.
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post #136 of 136
9/18/11 at 9:52am
Ballmer has implied they're working on a Metro Office. But that's a huge, huge undertaking. Unlike some of the blithe "just run it through our magic Metro machine" talk, MS knows that making a real touch application requires a huge amount of thought and design iteration-- and it can't just be that particular application, it has to be part of a system wide approach to touch that creates familiarity and app to app consistency.

Now, can anyone show me where the Metro stuff we've seen so far indicates that MS has made any strides in the kind of work required to make Office a genuinely usable touch application? Big sliding panels are of no use here, there has to be a deep touch vocabulary that accounts for all kinds of functionality-- functionality that MS is famous for either obscuring in menus or, lately, piling onto "ribbons." In fact, the general MS tendency towards feature bloat becomes an enormous hurdle to doing a good touch version, which rewards simplicity and clarity. And, to be of any actual benefit to their customers, a Metro Office has to work seamlessly with regular Office, including legacy Office installs. Which means if they drop formatting stuff to make the touch version easier, they have something no more useful to current Office users than Pages, which already works fine with Office as long as you don't try to open something with stuff Pages can't do.

So while I imagine it's true that MS is working on something, clearly all the work to date has gone into making a nice big widget panel sort of deal, with live tiles being the killer feature. Live Tiles helpful for word processing environment? How about Excel? I give it a few years before the can make a functional Office-- Ballmer's "we're working real hard" is practically MS speak for "we have no idea how long this will take."

Wonder what the tablet landscape will look like in a few years?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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