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Obama's "Buffett Rule" Rules OK!

post #1 of 140
Thread Starter 
Here's the New York Times who broke the story earlier-

"President Obama on Monday will call for a new minimum tax rate for individuals making more than $1 million a year to ensure that they pay at least the same percentage of their earnings as middle-income taxpayers, according to administration officials.


Mr. Obama, in a bit of political salesmanship, will call his proposal the Buffett Rule,in a reference to Warren E. Buffett, the billionaire investor who has complained repeatedly that the richest Americans generally pay a smaller share of their income in federal taxes than do middle-income workers, because investment gains are taxed at a lower rate than wages.

The millionaires tax is among several changes Mr. Obama will propose in urging Congress to overhaul the federal income tax code next year, both to raise revenues for reducing deficits and to make the tax system simpler and fairer, said the administration officials, who agreed to speak in advance of the presidents announcement on the condition of anonymity.

The millionaires rate would affect only 0.3 percent of taxpayers, they said. That would be fewer than 450,000; 144 million returns were filed for 2010."
~ http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/18/us...ires.html?_r=1
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #2 of 140
Support, and such a rule makes sense. It's not going to suddenly stop investment or cause job loss. To paraphrase Buffett, millionaires aren't going to suddenly stop doing business because of this rule.
post #3 of 140
We'll see what comes of this proposal.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #4 of 140
If it's just a matter of ensuring everyone's paying the same percentage of income, there should be no problem.
Once the exclusive domain of the right, even Tonton has signed on to the flat taxation bandwagon.

It will be interesting to see how much money this initiative will raise. I doubt the Democrats have the discipline to hold the line on their "soak the rich" rhetoric. When the budget doesn't balance because the amount of money we're talking about here is insignificant, we'll be back to the class warfare game.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #5 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

the class warfare game.

The right has been playing this game for 30 years.

Quote:
Theres class warfare, all right, but its my class, the rich class, thats making war, and were winning. -Warren Buffett

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #6 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Here's the New York Times who broke the story earlier-

"President Obama on Monday will call for a new minimum tax rate for individuals making more than $1 million a year to ensure that they pay at least the same percentage of their earnings as middle-income taxpayers, according to administration officials.


Mr. Obama, in a bit of political salesmanship, will call his proposal the Buffett Rule,in a reference to Warren E. Buffett, the billionaire investor who has complained repeatedly that the richest Americans generally pay a smaller share of their income in federal taxes than do middle-income workers, because investment gains are taxed at a lower rate than wages.

The millionaires tax is among several changes Mr. Obama will propose in urging Congress to overhaul the federal income tax code next year, both to raise revenues for reducing deficits and to make the tax system simpler and fairer, said the administration officials, who agreed to speak in advance of the presidents announcement on the condition of anonymity.

The millionaires rate would affect only 0.3 percent of taxpayers, they said. That would be fewer than 450,000; 144 million returns were filed for 2010."
~ http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/18/us...ires.html?_r=1

Obama is a hypocrite because he says he cares about the middle class and yet he has this adviser Immelt on his economic panel who is in charge of GE and exports jobs abroad and GE did not pay any taxes at all. Which is insane! That is Obama a double talker and kissing Buffet's behind all the time.
post #7 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Obama is a hypocrite because he says he cares about the middle class and yet he has this adviser Immelt on his economic panel who is in charge of GE and exports jobs abroad and GE did not pay any taxes at all. Which is insane! That is Obama a double talker and kissing Buffet's behind all the time.

"Another complicating factor is union uneasiness about outsourcing by G.E. Officials at the United Electrical Workers Union say the company has closed 29 plants in the United States and one in Canada in the past two years, eliminating more than 3,000 jobs.

We understand the logic of asking someone like that to step up and play a leading role, said Damon Silvers, the policy director for the AFL-CIO. But theres a real tension there in making a G.E. executive a central figure thinking about U.S. jobs.

But Gary Sheffer, a General Electric spokesman, said the company has also been shifting operations back to the United States, and has added 6,000 jobs in this country, for a net increase. For example, Mr. Sheffer said, G.E. is moving all of its refrigerator manufacturing business back to the United States. He said 60 percent of G.E.s revenues come from outside the country.

At the same time, G.E.s exports have roughly doubled in the past five years, which makes the company a good showcase for a president who is trying to promote trade and exports as a way to repair the battered economy.
Exports were a major theme of the presidents India trip and the state visit by President Hu; Mr. Immelt was among the business leaders who attended a high-level meeting with Mr. Hu, as well as the state dinner at the White House on Wednesday."
~ http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/22/bu...y/22obama.html

Maybe Obama's thinking isn't all bad?
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #8 of 140
Thread Starter 
"Talking Points: The Buffett Rule

22,000 millionaires -- making more than $1 million annually -- paid less than 15 percent of their income in taxes in 2009.

And the top 400 richest Americans, all making over $110 million per year and making an average of $271 million per year, paid only 18 percent of their income in income taxes in 2008. In fact, since the mid-1990s, the share of income paid by the wealthiest 400 Americans has fallen by nearly 40 percent, from 29.9% in 1995, even as their average incomes roughly quadrupled.

Too many middle class Americans pay more than this -- especially when payroll taxes are taken into account.

The fact is, it's not fair to reduce the deficit by shifting the burden on the middle class, older Americans, or those who can least afford it.

Unfortunately, Congressional Republicans believe the burden of deficit reduction should only come from spending cuts to critical programs, including Medicare and Medicaid, and refuse to ask millionaires and billionaires to pay their fair share to get our fiscal house in order and reduce the deficit."
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_968682.html
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #9 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

"Talking Points: The Buffett Rule

22,000 millionaires -- making more than $1 million annually -- paid less than 15 percent of their income in taxes in 2009.

And the top 400 richest Americans, all making over $110 million per year and making an average of $271 million per year, paid only 18 percent of their income in income taxes in 2008. In fact, since the mid-1990s, the share of income paid by the wealthiest 400 Americans has fallen by nearly 40 percent, from 29.9% in 1995, even as their average incomes roughly quadrupled.

Too many middle class Americans pay more than this -- especially when payroll taxes are taken into account.

The fact is, it's not fair to reduce the deficit by shifting the burden on the middle class, older Americans, or those who can least afford it.

Unfortunately, Congressional Republicans believe the burden of deficit reduction should only come from spending cuts to critical programs, including Medicare and Medicaid, and refuse to ask millionaires and billionaires to pay their fair share to get our fiscal house in order and reduce the deficit."
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_968682.html

So according to your link, the ultra-rich are paying between 15 and 18 percent. I'm not seeing the figure that the middle class pays that you want to raise them up to.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #10 of 140
Haven't gotten an answer. This article says the idea is about the rich currently paying 15% on investment earnings, as opposed to the maximum 35% income tax bracket.

Putting aside the idea that you could take 75% of the income we're talking about and it wouldn't make a real difference to the U.S. deficit, surely taxing investments at 35% will discourage investment at a time when many jobs in America are hanging precariously by a thread.

How does substantially higher taxes on investment income create jobs?
Didn't Obama JUST say his focus was on creating jobs in America?
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #11 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post


Putting aside the idea that you could take 75% of the income we're talking about and it wouldn't make a real difference to the U.S. deficit...

Oh please, pretty, pretty please, explain your numbers on that one....make my day!
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #12 of 140
We have been over this endlessly. There is no mathematical way to fund the activities of U.S. government by taxing the so-called Ultra-RIch, even if you confiscated 100% of their assets.

How about you answer my question? What tax rate is acceptable to you for taxing those with incomes over a million dollars?
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #13 of 140
This proposal is utterly ridiculous. Another word for it might be "fucktarded."

1. Buffett is a hypocrite. His estate planning is vast and for one purpose: To prevent the government from getting his money when he dies.

2. This is not a tax increase on just millionaires and billionaires and hedge fund managers. That's focus group-driven nonsense. This is a tax increase on people making more than $250,000 a year. That's upper middle class and above. That includes thousands if not tens of thousands of small businesses. It creates yet more uncertainty. These businesses are already looking at January 1st, 2013 and thinking about if they can hire workers with the countdown to automatically higher taxes ticking away. Now they have even more uncertainty because Obama is out there rattling his class warfare saber.

3. How does raising taxes help job creation? It obviously doesn't. Ever.

4. Obama has repeatedly stated in 2008 and 2009 that "raising taxes during a recession is bad economics." He even stated he was willing to extend the Bush tax cuts during a recession. Now, he's doing exactly what he claimed to be against. The economy may not technically be in recession according to the GDP numbers, but it's certainly in a virtual recession to say the least

5. This new revenue and deficit plan is full of gimmicks from war savings. It raises taxes $3 for every "cut" in spending. Again, it's focus group-driven, poll-tested class warfare drivel...and nothing more.

6. I'm really starting to think that Obama is stupid, or at least has unbelievably bad judgement. Let's put this in its most basic terms: We're about a year away from an election and he's proposing a huge tax increase. What? I mean, I know he think he's got the right verbiage and political skills to get people to blame the rich for their problems, but really...proposing a huge tax increase at this point in the election cycle...after his 2010 shellacking? After losing the Weiner seat in a 3:1 Dem district? That's craziness. Bush 41 reluctantly agreed to some minor tax increases after promising "no new taxes," and it was one reason he got beaten in his reelection bid (at the time he had a high approval rating). This President is now a 30 per-center, and he's actually proposing a very large increase. Wow.

7. I don't know if it's that Obama really thinks his policies will work, or if he's got another agenda. Putting the conspiracy theories aside, even the former is mind boggling. It seems to me he actually believes that he did everything right but just got "unlucky." The results are clear, but apparently he's committed to following through on the definition of stupidity. We're going to have more stimulus! More taxes! Infrastructure!

This guy becomes more of a disaster by the day. I'm actually taken aback at how bad at governing he's turned out to be. Conservatives can't stand him. He's lost moderates in droves. Even the liberals are said to be planning a primary challenge. He's on fire and it's raining gasoline.
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post #14 of 140
SDW hates it. That means it's gotta be good.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #15 of 140
Obama lost his base over the last two years. His only chance in this election is to get it back. To not see that fact is blindness.
post #16 of 140
He won't get his base back by continuing Bush's failed policies.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #17 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

SDW hates it. That means it's gotta be good.

Either that or it is really that bad...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #18 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

He won't get his base back by continuing Bush's failed policies.

That's why he's doing this. Bush cut taxes for the rich (more than he cut taxes for the middle class, no matter what Trumpt and SDW like to claim). Obama is cutting taxes for the middle class and raising taxes for the very rich. If you think this is the same policy you're nuts. Next up, we'll see Obama slashing the military budget. Just watch.
post #19 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

We have been over this endlessly. There is no mathematical way to fund the activities of U.S. government by taxing the so-called Ultra-RIch, even if you confiscated 100% of their assets.

We're talking about a package total of three trillion dollars. Ignore the math of that all you want.
post #20 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

He won't get his base back by continuing Bush's failed policies.


It's already happening.
So much for this lame claim.
post #21 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Here's the New York Times who broke the story earlier-

"President Obama on Monday will call for a new minimum tax rate for individuals making more than $1 million a year to ensure that they pay at least the same percentage of their earnings as middle-income taxpayers, according to administration officials.


Mr. Obama, in a bit of political salesmanship, will call his proposal the Buffett Rule,in a reference to Warren E. Buffett, the billionaire investor who has complained repeatedly that the richest Americans generally pay a smaller share of their income in federal taxes than do middle-income workers, because investment gains are taxed at a lower rate than wages.

The millionaires tax is among several changes Mr. Obama will propose in urging Congress to overhaul the federal income tax code next year, both to raise revenues for reducing deficits and to make the tax system simpler and fairer, said the administration officials, who agreed to speak in advance of the presidents announcement on the condition of anonymity.

The millionaires rate would affect only 0.3 percent of taxpayers, they said. That would be fewer than 450,000; 144 million returns were filed for 2010."
~ http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/18/us...ires.html?_r=1

What is the solution to this woeful economy we are in now? This Obama rule will go no where with the GOP Party everyone knows this.
post #22 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

What is the solution to this woeful economy we are in now? This Obama rule will go no where with the GOP Party everyone knows this.

But if not for the GOP it would be a smart move. Obama's entire failure has been trying to "work with" the GOP. At least if he lets the GOP block every "change" he tries to make instead of making little or no changes at all because of over-compromise, the public (or at least his base) wouldn't be blaming him so much for not fixing this mess, they would be blaming the "party of 'no'".
post #23 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

But if not for the GOP it would be a smart move. Obama's entire failure has been trying to "work with" the GOP. At least if he lets the GOP block every "change" he tries to make instead of making little or no changes at all because of over-compromise, the public (or at least his base) wouldn't be blaming him so much for not fixing this mess, they would be blaming the "party of 'no'".

If the last few years have taught me anything, it is if they really wanted to pass something, they would not let the republicans stop them. They would find a way to make it pass. They have no will to pass most of what does not pass.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #24 of 140
Democrats do not march in lockstep like Republicans. They actually value different opinions and have a pretty large tent. What you and tonton both seem to be requesting is for Democrats to start acting like Republicans--the problem with that is that goes against the important principles of the Democratic party: government works and we have to work together to solve our problems.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #25 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

That's why he's doing this. Bush cut taxes for the rich (more than he cut taxes for the middle class, no matter what Trumpt and SDW like to claim). Obama is cutting taxes for the middle class and raising taxes for the very rich. If you think this is the same policy you're nuts. Next up, we'll see Obama slashing the military budget. Just watch.

The rich will simply pass their increased costs along to their employees and customers.

It will negatively impact the middle class and poor far more than it will the rich.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #26 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The rich will simply pass their increased costs along to their employees and customers.

Bullshit, and you know it. You know those who employ people (and not every rich person employs people directly) will always do what's in their financial best interest. Increased overhead doesn't change this one iota. Read my signature.

If they can afford to cut staff now, they would do it now. If they need to hire someone for a particular task, they will do it now.

If they can maximize profits by raising prices now, they will do it. If they have to cut prices to get more business, they will do that.

Overhead makes no difference. The only difference it can *theoretically* make is whether they choose to expand/take risky investments, or hold on to profits/make conservative investments. They've already decided, long ago, that they're not going to expand, despite the fact that they have not had their taxes raised since Reagan. So raising their taxes now will not change a thing. But it *will* raise revenue. Revenue that can be used for job creation programs. Revenue that can be used to cut the deficit (which helps everyone, rich and poor).
post #27 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Bullshit, and you know it. You know those who employ people (and not every rich person employs people directly) will always do what's in their financial best interest. Increased overhead doesn't change this one iota. Read my signature.

If they can afford to cut staff now, they would do it now. If they need to hire someone for a particular task, they will do it now.

If they can maximize profits by raising prices now, they will do it. If they have to cut prices to get more business, they will do that.

Overhead makes no difference. The only difference it can *theoretically* make is whether they choose to expand/take risky investments, or hold on to profits/make conservative investments. They've already decided, long ago, that they're not going to expand, despite the fact that they have not had their taxes raised since Reagan. So raising their taxes now will not change a thing. But it *will* raise revenue. Revenue that can be used for job creation programs. Revenue that can be used to cut the deficit (which helps everyone, rich and poor).

Actually, I disagree with you having just been through this over the past few years. When things get worse, they cut people even if they cannot afford to from a business perspective. We lost a lot of really great talent due to a cyclical marketplace that hit a much lower cycle and due to cost overheads due to fuel economy standards that had to be implemented. Our vehicles were ready, and had been for over a year, but our customers were not and we suffered due to this government regulation and the uncertainty around having to push out a new engine that customers were not sure was ready until someone else tested it.

Less money coming in, higher costs going out and the employees and customers were saddled with the costs, sometimes in higher prices for the vehicles, sometimes in longer hours for no more pay, sometimes in losing their job because it was not financially sound to keep the person on. Welcome to the real world, this is what happens. Try not to make it worse with stupid legislation.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #28 of 140
Raising the tax burden is not the same as raising revenue.

Quote:
The most important thing to understand is that the rich are different from the rest of us (or at least they’re unlike me, but feel free to send me a check if you’re in that category).

Ordinary slobs like me get the overwhelming share of our income from wages and salaries. The means we are somewhat easy victims when the politicians feel like raping and plundering. If my tax rate goes up, I don’t really have much opportunity to protect myself by altering my income.



For rich people, however, the world is vastly different. As the chart shows, people with more than $1 million of adjusted gross income get only 33 percent of their income from wages and salaries. And the same IRS data shows that the super-rich, those with income above $10 million, rely on wages and salaries for only 19 percent of their income.



This means that they — unlike me and (presumably) you — have tremendous ability to control the timing, level, and composition of their income.

Indeed, here are two completely legal and very easy things that rich people already do to minimize their taxes – but will do much more frequently if they are targeted for more punitive tax treatment.

1) They will shift their investments to stocks that are perceived to appreciate in value. This means they can reduce their exposure to the double tax on dividends and postpone indefinitely taxes on capital gains. They get wealthier and the IRS collects less revenue.

2) They will shift their investments to municipal bonds, which are exempt from federal tax. They probably won’t risk their money on debt from basket-case states such as California and Illinois (the Greece and Portugal of America), but there are many well-run states that issue bonds. The rich will get steady income and, while the return won’t be very high, they don’t have to give one penny of their interest payments to the IRS.

For every simple idea I can envision, it goes without saying that clever lawyers, lobbyists, accountants, and financial planners can probably think of 100 ways to utilize deductions, credits, preferences, exemptions, shelters, exclusions, and loopholes. This is why class-warfare tax policy is so self-defeating.

Those evil rich people paid much more to the IRS after Reagan cut their tax rate from 70 percent to 28 percent in the 1980s.

Quote:
The table below, which is based on data from the IRS’s Statistics of Income, shows what happened to tax collections from upper-income taxpayers between 1980 and 1988. Supply siders can be criticized for many things, especially their apparent disregard for the importance of limiting the size of government, but the IRS figures clearly show that lower tax rates were followed by more rich people, more taxable income, and more tax revenue. For those keeping score at home, that’s a perfect batting average for supply-side economics.


Soaking the rich hasn't worked in the past and it will not work now.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #29 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Actually, I disagree with you having just been through this over the past few years. When things get worse, they cut people even if they cannot afford to from a business perspective. We lost a lot of really great talent due to a cyclical marketplace that hit a much lower cycle and due to cost overheads due to fuel economy standards that had to be implemented. Our vehicles were ready, and had been for over a year, but our customers were not and we suffered due to this government regulation and the uncertainty around having to push out a new engine that customers were not sure was ready until someone else tested it.

Less money coming in, higher costs going out and the employees and customers were saddled with the costs, sometimes in higher prices for the vehicles, sometimes in longer hours for no more pay, sometimes in losing their job because it was not financially sound to keep the person on. Welcome to the real world, this is what happens. Try not to make it worse with stupid legislation.

It doesn't take a genius to see that it wasn't increased overhead that affected your business. It was loss of sales. Under the proposed Obama plan, your customers would receive tax breaks due to the payroll tax cuts, so your sales would increase. You could hire those "greatly talented" people back, not because of decreased expenses, but because of increased demand for your product!

Unless you only sell retail to rich people, and your product is VERY expensive, the Obama plan will not harm your business.
post #30 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It doesn't take a genius to see that it wasn't increased overhead that affected your business. It was loss of sales. Under the proposed Obama plan, your customers would receive tax breaks due to the payroll tax cuts, so your sales would increase. You could hire those "greatly talented" people back, not because of decreased expenses, but because of increased demand for your product!

Unless you only sell retail to rich people, and your product is VERY expensive, the Obama plan will not harm your business.

And therein lies your problem. The product we sell IS very expensive and is sold to "rich" corporations and people. I am prepared to be harmed.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #31 of 140

First, Obama's "Buffett Rule" appears to count all income for its calculation of base rate, not just salary, so your graphs are meaningless in this case.

Second, increasing the tax rate on the super-rich will not decrease the number of super-rich. Your table also has no meaning whatsoever when it doesn't show the redistribution of wealth over that period from the middle class to the rich.
post #32 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

That's why he's doing this. Bush cut taxes for the rich (more than he cut taxes for the middle class, no matter what Trumpt and SDW like to claim). Obama is cutting taxes for the middle class and raising taxes for the very rich. If you think this is the same policy you're nuts. Next up, we'll see Obama slashing the military budget. Just watch.

How much Bush cut taxes for the rich and the middle class depends on how one looks at it. The bottom rate went from 15% to 10%...so that's a 35% reduction. The top rate went from 39% to 33% (actually..I think that might be generous...I don't recall if it's 35, 34, or 33). That's about a 16% reduction. The rich also end up paying more of the total tax bill under the Bush rates. Add in the depreciation changes and other credits, and the tax relief for middle income people was very significant. I (a very middle income person) saved literally thousands.

The same applies to "cutting taxes for the middle class." That's dubious. The only real tax cut is the $800 Making Work Pay credit. Then we do have the very small payroll tax reduction. But the MWPC phases out over $150,000 (I think that's the number). And he's talking about raising taxes on people that make over $250,000 a year. That's not "rich." It's upper middle class. It's well off. It's quite conceivable that two upper middle class professionals could make that much. They are not millionaires nor billionaires. But hey...they're not paying "their fair share" according to Obama. It's not enough that they pay the vast majority of the taxes in the nation. Obama wants more.

Ditto on small business. This is a job killer for them. Many don't pay corporate taxes, they pay their taxes on personal returns. A tax increase like this is an extremely bad idea, especially during these economic times. The problem here, I think, is that Obama is torn between stimulating the economy and tackling the deficit problem (if he cares about either is debatable, but I'll assume for now he does). Tax increases do not lead to private sector job growth, and everyone knows it. Tell any supporter of the proposal that, and they'll turn around and talk about the deficit. Talk about the economy, and they'll go back to the deficit. It's Biploar Economics.
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post #33 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

And therein lies your problem. The product we sell IS very expensive and is sold to "rich" corporations and people. I am prepared to be harmed.

Well, maybe it's time for you to diversify. If you're selling yachts or private jets, you're pretty much screwed in the foreseeable future no matter what happens. The Tea Party won't save you from that fate. You shouldn't punish all of society for your failure to correctly gauge the growth prospect of luxury business.

Meanwhile, there are very very few companies with a product such as what you describe, and most people will see the results I've mentioned. Not everyone will see a benefit, no. But most people will. And what's good for most people is what's good for America.
post #34 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Well, maybe it's time for you to diversify. If you're selling yachts or private jets, you're pretty much screwed in the foreseeable future no matter what happens. The Tea Party won't save you from that fate. You shouldn't punish all of society for your failure to correctly gauge the growth prospect of luxury business.

Meanwhile, there are very very few companies with a product such as what you describe, and most people will see the results I've mentioned. Not everyone will see a benefit, no. But most people will. And what's good for most people is what's good for America.

Love it. "Just find a new business, you greedy bastard." That pretty much sums up this administration.
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post #35 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

First, Obama's "Buffett Rule" appears to count all income for its calculation of base rate, not just salary, so your graphs are meaningless in this case.

Did you read the text along with the graphs?

Quote:
Second, increasing the tax rate on the super-rich will not decrease the number of super-rich. Your table also has no meaning whatsoever when it doesn't show the redistribution of wealth over that period from the middle class to the rich.

Can you at least acknowledge that the Reagan tax-cuts for the rich increased tax revenue?

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

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post #36 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Can you at least acknowledge that the Reagan tax-cuts for the rich increased tax revenue?

Absolutely not.

There is absolutely no evidence that it was a cause and effect.

I can, in this case, admit that tax revenue increased, and that taxes were cut for the rich. There's no way I will agree that there's any direct correlation between the two.
post #37 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Absolutely not.

There is absolutely no evidence that it was a cause and effect.

I can, in this case, admit that tax revenue increased, and that taxes were cut for the rich. There's no way I will agree that there's any direct correlation between the two.

What do you believe caused the broadening of the tax base and increase in tax revenue in spite of tax cuts?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

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post #38 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Did you read the text along with the graphs?

Yes... it was brilliant.

Quote:
1) They will shift their investments to stocks that are perceived to appreciate in value. This means they can reduce their exposure to the double tax on dividends and postpone indefinitely taxes on capital gains. They get wealthier and the IRS collects less revenue.

Capital gains is included in the "Buffett Rule" as far as I understand. There is no tax shelter for earnings. This loophole has been closed with implementation of this rule. That's what I meant in my comment that all their income is included, so the graphs are meaningless in this case.

Quote:
2) They will shift their investments to municipal bonds, which are exempt from federal tax. They probably wont risk their money on debt from basket-case states such as California and Illinois (the Greece and Portugal of America), but there are many well-run states that issue bonds. The rich will get steady income and, while the return wont be very high, they dont have to give one penny of their interest payments to the IRS.

This is just stupid. Is this quote saying that the rich will move from a 10% ROI, on which they have to pay 40% tax, to a 3% ROI, for which they don't have to pay tax? Out of "principle"?
post #39 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

What do you believe caused the broadening of the tax base and increase in tax revenue in spite of tax cuts?

Mostly the growth of new markets in the economy, e.g. the personal computer and personal electronics. Which would have grown regardless of the tax cuts.
post #40 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Mostly the growth of new markets in the economy, e.g. the personal computer and personal electronics. Which would have grown regardless of the tax cuts.

The growth of these new markets had nothing to do with the fact that the rich had more money to invest in them? Really?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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