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Apple closes at new all-time high as world’s largest company - Page 2

post #41 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Big deal. It's his money, and he can do with it as he pleases.

Would you rather he burnt it to heat his home with it?

Ok, so Steve Jobs created $340 billion of value for Apple, its investors, consumers, and fans (note I left out communities). So when he dies would you rather he take it to his grave since it's 'his' money?
post #42 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOROM View Post

Apple's is the most respected company in the world http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...011/full_list/. Apple's reputation is so valuable it cannot be priced, but it may be worth more that all that cash that they have in the bank. If many people begin to believe (with a basis in truth) that Apple is not a "good" corporate citizen, Apple will be badly hurt.

A couple people in our office barfed reading your post. One may have miscarried.
Congratulations.
post #43 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOROM View Post

Well I think that successful corporations have a responsibility beyond just profits. Apple obviously believes that too (see their environmental policies). So you obviously disagree with Apple.

Does that make you feel silly or superior?

And the crazy thing about all you who say that profits are the only thing a corporation should care about is, Apple has (at least under Jobs) been focused on quality first, not profits.

I believe that in the Apple culture profits are seen as the outcome of creating great products, not the goal.

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post #44 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOROM View Post

Well I think that successful corporations have a responsibility beyond just profits. Apple obviously believes that too (see their environmental policies). So you obviously disagree with Apple.

Does that make you feel silly or superior?

Superior.

Apple believes in the environment, and more generally, sustainability - as every sensible company should - because you can't be a good business in the long run by trashing the planet. Good for them!

There is substantial evidence to prove, btw, that while "doing well" and "doing good" are highly correlated, the evidence is that businesses that do well do good, but the reverse is not necessarily true.

The world is generally better off, in other words, with more companies like Apple.
post #45 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mode View Post

A couple people in our office barfed reading your post. One may have miscarried.
Congratulations.

I suspect you don't work in public relations, right?

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post #46 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

You don't know much about why companies pay dividends, do you?
Hint... It's because they're not increasing in share value.
I'll take my 300% gains over little dividend payoffs any day.

Yeah, I bought AAPL when it was $13/share. And it's split since then.

I really, REALLY couldn't care less about dividends. I'd rather they hold onto that cash to work on and bring forth the "Next Big Thing" or buy someone who has what they need or whatever else they want to do with it.

Like someone up-thread said: You want a dividend, sell a share.
post #47 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Revenue is relative to Costs of Maintenance including Labor Costs, plus the outstanding Debt of the Company.

Apple has zero debt, extremely High Revenue to Costs and the largest market cap.

Trust me, I am very familiar with Apple's financials.

The fact that I don't consider Apple to be the world's largest company does not detract me from looking at their overall financial performance figures. Again, I will emphasize that I did not say that the largest company was the best company.

The commonly accepted measurement by CEOs, CFOs, etc. of company financial size is revenue. I never said this was the only valid measurement of a company.

You guys really need to stop putting words into other people's mouths.
post #48 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Who said anything about 'philanthropy'? You really need to grapple with the fact that corporations - and that includes MSFT and BRK - are not in the philanthropy business. They are in the shareholder value creation business. Your wishing for something else will not make that happen, and more importantly, it should not.

Gates and Buffett, otoh, can surely be in the philanthropy business (as a consequence of all the wealth that their respective corporations have created for them), just as Jobs could be/should be/perhaps is, in spades, and we don't know/perhaps will be after his death/etc/etc. That is their choosing.

It's honestly sad you're not seeing the big picture. And I really think Tim Cook would be disappointed in your take on this. When one starts establishing oneself, they pay themselves first, once one's well established, one helps others establish themselves. Once Apple takes that on, I'm sure you will too.
post #49 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by anfboymn View Post

Ok, so Steve Jobs created $340 billion of value for Apple, its investors, consumers, and fans (note I left out communities). So when he dies would you rather he take it to his grave since it's 'his' money?

Stop being vacuous. Your arguments are now rapidly getting to the 'stupid' end of the scale. Come back and talk about this topic if/when Jobs does that.

It is painfully evident that you did not get the obvious sarcasm of my prior post where I was asking the original poster whether he thought Bill Gates should burn it instead of spending it on charter schools that were, according to him, 'awful.'

Btw, Apple's market cap is $382B, not $340B.
post #50 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by anfboymn View Post

It's honestly sad you're not seeing the big picture. And I really think Tim Cook would be disappointed in your take on this. When one starts establishing oneself, they pay themselves first, once one's well established, one helps others establish themselves. Once Apple takes that on, I'm sure you will too.

Aargh..... now you presume to speak for Tim Cook.:roll eyes:

The arrogance......
post #51 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by anfboymn View Post

Ok, so saying Apple giving back to the community by means of them selling their products to schools is philanthropy? Give me a break. They BUY them because they are good products. That's it. Also, look it up, Bill Gates and Warren Buffett donate billions while they are still alive to organizations they feel need them...and are donating a HUGE percentage of their wealth once they're dead. Apple is purely sub-mediocre, and that's being liberal. Corporations or invdividuals are not required to donate anything, obviously, but there's a point where you need to sit back and realize a hundred billion dollars in the bank is no different than that lady on that hoarders show who can't let anything go and has a panic attack when someone just talks about getting rid of some.

They give back to the community by earning billions of dollars and paying taxes. That money is used for those schools and other programs that you mention. They also create thousands of jobs and last but not least make the lives of people far easier with their products.

Hmmm... Seems to me they do an awful lot for "the community" after all!


I love the way people like you are always so quick to give away other people's hard earned money.
post #52 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Who said anything about 'philanthropy'? You really need to grapple with the fact that corporations - and that includes MSFT and BRK - are not in the philanthropy business. They are in the shareholder value creation business. Your wishing for something else will not make that happen, and more importantly, it should not.

Gates and Buffett, otoh, can surely be in the philanthropy business (as a consequence of all the wealth that their respective corporations have created for them), just as Jobs could be/should be/perhaps is, in spades, and we don't know/perhaps will be after his death/etc/etc. That is their choosing.

Job's philanthropy business was creating Apple. It just happened to make a lot of money. ;-) There are different ways to do good. There is a need for voluntary philanthropy. It should never be a requirement and really should be for individuals involvement. You should do good if it makes you feel good not out of some sort of expectations. There are cases where you can do good for business reasons or that are easy and thoughtful. Apple remodeled a subway station near me because of the proximity to one of their stores for example. They also opened their stores for people to reach loved ones during the Japanese disaster. They help create ethical work conditions through the "entire" supply chain. Apple has supported gay/lesbian rights financially. Steve Jobs has helped to improve the organ donor process. Lots of other examples.
post #53 of 107
I think the stock jumped so much today because of a note from Morgan Stanley. It's bound to dip hard tomorrow, based on nonsensical ideas from analysts.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #54 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I think the stock jumped so much today because of a note from Morgan Stanley. It's bound to dip hard tomorrow, based on nonsensical ideas from analysts.

This is a load of garbage.

First of all, where is this Morgan Stanley note? The last thing I saw from them about Apple was six days ago.

Second, if MS had such influence over AAPL's stock price, we'd see this every time they took a position and clearly MS is a non-factor in AAPL's stock price. Oh, and if you're talking about Katy Huberty, she has one of the worst AAPL prediction records.
post #55 of 107
i agree with both of you but with one very important exception. The market is more interested when there is a change going on in these figures. Exxon is booring - they don't grow 50-100 % yearly in EPS/revenue/cash, their market cap do not outperform index that much and so forth.

Standing still is nothing compared to achieving something.

Right now AAPL outperforms - financial trajectory is better than any company of comparable size (any measure). Means that a few AAPL shares in your portfolio helps you beat index any day.

That counts!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831 View Post

Oh, I never said that they don't.

But the first two numbers that the Street will report will be revenue and EPS.

Again, I'm not saying those are the exclusive two measurements of a company's fiscal value. I'm just saying that the Street starts with those two measurements.

Go ahead and look at any recap of a corporate earnings announcement. Revenue and EPS are always the first two stats mentioned.

Let's face it, it's a bit like baseball statistics. Batting average and hits are two most reported hitting statistics, even though there are many more measurements that might be more important (SLG, OBP, OPS, etc.).
post #56 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by anfboymn View Post

But yet they refuse to pay out a dividend...with almost a hundred billion dollars in the bank. Apple has realized they no longer need those who invest in them because of their cash stockpile. Very sad. Never forget those who helped fund you when things were just ok. If you're gonna hoard your money, at least give more back to the community. Do I dare mention Target gves more money back to the community and they are no where near Apple's worth? You're already number 1 in so many areas, try to be number 1 in areas that really matter.



Ever heard of the term ex-dividend? When a company pays a dividend the share price usually drops to reflect the fact that the company is worth less than it was before it paid the dividend. If they don't pay a dividend then in AAPL's case the value of the company increases and this is reflected in the market cap. Yes the PE ratio is dropping and on that basis yes a dividend may increase value to shareholders. But which other company would you have invested in over the last 10 years???

As for giving back to the community, how do you measure the value or worth of that. Does Target do it for purely altruistic intents? Or is it part of their overall marketing strategy? That's somewhat cynical I suppose. Bill Gates on the other hand gives back, I suspect, for purely altruistic intents - no one needs to personally stockpile that much money and he knows that.

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post #57 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by anfboymn View Post

But yet they refuse to pay out a dividend...with almost a hundred billion dollars in the bank. Apple has realized they no longer need those who invest in them because of their cash stockpile. Very sad. Never forget those who helped fund you when things were just ok. If you're gonna hoard your money, at least give more back to the community. Do I dare mention Target gves more money back to the community and they are no where near Apple's worth? You're already number 1 in so many areas, try to be number 1 in areas that really matter.

I've come to the conclusion that Apple only concerns itself about shareholders in an indirect way. Apple's main focus is to design, build and sell great products for consumers to enjoy using and that it does very well. If Apple sells enough products and builds enough revenue then I guess it's only natural that the share price will go up. I'm in my 60's and maybe I will see a dividend in a year or two. I'm not expecting it or anything since I'm Apple long since 2004 and have made out very well. I've certainly made back far more than I've ever spent on Apple products since 1984. With Apple stockpiling so much cash it is possible that in the future Apple will do something grand with it and everyone that's griping now will have long forgotten about these stockpiling days.

For those that want a dividend now, why not just sell your Apple stock and buy a stock that offers a dividend such as Microsoft or ExxonMobil or plenty of others. No one is being forced to hold Apple stock if they're unhappy with it. I happen to know that Apple is the best performing investment I've ever owned and if anything, Apple has done an excellent job to become such a powerful industry leader. If Wall Street doesn't value it properly, Apple can't be blamed for that, at least from my viewpoint.
post #58 of 107
Better off putting your money in Apple than T-Bills or Bank Accounts. Its probably safer.
post #59 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mode View Post

I'm sure that Apple will use these absurd profits and limitless equity to create jobs in America.


Just look for job posting for both Apple Retail and Apple Corporate. I think there's a reason that new campus is being built in Cupertino - probably to house more employees in Cupertino, CA USA.
post #60 of 107
Apple Is Almost Worth As Much As Google And Microsoft Combined


http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-market-cap-2011-9


The antitrust case against Google


http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/09/...e/?iid=SF_F_LN


Congratulations Android for replacing Nokia as the worlds most
popular,
irelevant,
useless,
and crappiest

mobile platform.

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post #61 of 107
People here are focusing on the wrong arguments. Apple's main focus is not profit nor design, it's maintaining market power. That's why they keep all the cash. Cash is king because you can use it to sue, use it to buy most of the materials used in competitor's products, and use it to buy companies that might threaten Apple's market leading position.
post #62 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by FriedLobster View Post

Apple Is Almost Worth As Much As Google And Microsoft Combined


http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-market-cap-2011-9


The antitrust case against Google


http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/09/...e/?iid=SF_F_LN


Congratulations Android for replacing Nokia as the worlds most
popular,
irelevant,
useless,
and crappiest

mobile platform.

Well that was random and unprovoked. I'd call you a loser or lame or a childish fool but that may get me another warning point like it did when I said something similar to hill.
post #63 of 107
Why the stock surge today of all days? There are no announcements, nothing as far as I know has changed. Is this simply because of some highly suspect market analysis on iPhones that are neither announced nor shipped?
post #64 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

I've come to the conclusion that Apple only concerns itself about shareholders in an indirect way. Apple's main focus is to design, build and sell great products for consumers to enjoy using and that it does very well. If Apple sells enough products and builds enough revenue then I guess it's only natural that the share price will go up. I'm in my 60's and maybe I will see a dividend in a year or two. I'm not expecting it or anything since I'm Apple long since 2004 and have made out very well. I've certainly made back far more than I've ever spent on Apple products since 1984. With Apple stockpiling so much cash it is possible that in the future Apple will do something grand with it and everyone that's griping now will have long forgotten about these stockpiling days.

For those that want a dividend now, why not just sell your Apple stock and buy a stock that offers a dividend such as Microsoft or ExxonMobil or plenty of others. No one is being forced to hold Apple stock if they're unhappy with it. I happen to know that Apple is the best performing investment I've ever owned and if anything, Apple has done an excellent job to become such a powerful industry leader. If Wall Street doesn't value it properly, Apple can't be blamed for that, at least from my viewpoint.

Couldn't agree more.

Many other companies should follow suit. Think more about the customers than about the financial markets. If yo do that right, financial markets will follow you. Otherwise it's the other way around.
post #65 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by REC View Post

Why the stock surge today of all days? There are no announcements, nothing as far as I know has changed. Is this simply because of some highly suspect market analysis on iPhones that are neither announced nor shipped?

There has been a bunch of news lately about iPhones for China. Maybe the enormity of the opportunity is starting to sink in. Against a backdrop of general bad news, Apple looks better and better. Could be no more than that.
post #66 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

Mmmmm, AAPL, what a lovely alpha you have.

Mmm... 'Dat Alpha
post #67 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by BUSHMAN4 View Post

Better off putting your money in Apple than T-Bills or Bank Accounts. Its probably safer.

The veracity of this statement is indeed disturbing.
post #68 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mode View Post

I'm sure that Apple will use these absurd profits and limitless equity to create jobs in America.


They'll definitely use them to create jobs in a place that's profitable to do so. I think it's safe to say that place is not America.
post #69 of 107
deleted
post #70 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by anfboymn View Post

But yet they refuse to pay out a dividend...with almost a hundred billion dollars in the bank. Apple has realized they no longer need those who invest in them because of their cash stockpile. Very sad. Never forget those who helped fund you when things were just ok.


Apple maximizes shareholder value. Always. If they had only the means of paying dividends, they would do that. Or they would initiate a stock repurchase program. But those are methods for mature companies, and Apple may still be a growth company.

At any rate, the lack of a dividend is NOT an indication that Apple thinks it no longer needs shareholders.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anfboymn View Post

If you're gonna hoard your money, at least give more back to the community. Do I dare mention Target gves more money back to the community and they are no where near Apple's worth? You're already number 1 in so many areas, try to be number 1 in areas that really matter.

Target believes that the PR value will yield profits in excess of the amounts it "gives back". Target is not a charitable organization. Target aims to maximize profits.
post #71 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by anfboymn View Post

Apple is acting like money is everything by not being a community leader; you can still be hugely successful while still being a major player in the philanthropy arena. And I promise you, Steve Jobs is now realizing money isn't everything.

Steve was on multiple transplant lists because he had his own Learjet to transport him literally anywhere in the world at a moment's notice. I think he knows the value of money just fine.

Anyone else in his situation that didn't have access to unlimited funds would be dead today. Period.
post #72 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by XamaX View Post


Just brace yourselves - if there's no cataclysm, AAPL is going through the roof and I don't even have the guts to guess away where AAPL will be a year from now.

Challenge: any guesses? $600 anyone?


Look at SNE - a similar CE company. Once worth $150, it is now worth around $20.

Once it was the hottest thing in tech. Things change.
post #73 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by anfboymn View Post

Apple is acting like money is everything by not being a community leader; you can still be hugely successful while still being a major player in the philanthropy arena. And I promise you, Steve Jobs is now realizing money isn't everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

Look at SNE - a similar CE company. Once worth $150, it is now worth around $20.

Once it was the hottest thing in tech. Things change.

And that's precisely why they keep all those funds in reserve.

Apple was on top of the world with the Apple II, then the whole thing fell apart once IBM started licensing the hardware to other manufacturers. the same thing could easily happen with Android. Hardware wise it's already happening. The saving grace for Apple is that wireless providers charge the same exorbitant rates for Android plans that they do for iPhones.
post #74 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by anfboymn View Post

Apple is acting like money is everything by not being a community leader; you can still be hugely successful while still being a major player in the philanthropy arena. And I promise you, Steve Jobs is now realizing money isn't everything.

Apple is a huge multinational corporation. To a huge multinational corporation money IS everything. That is the nature of such an institution. They are duty-bound to act in that manner.

Steve Jobs is a human being. He has no such duty. He can do what he wants.

If you would like to support a philanthropic organization, you have may choices. So does Steve.

But Apple just makes money for its owners. Nothing more, nothing less. They will do anything and everything they can to make profits or otherwise maximize shareholder value.

If they thought that giving money to charity would increase shareholder value, they would do it in a heartbeat. So far, they think that what they currently do is the best path. So far, they seem to be doing it very well.

Apple does NOT do what it does for ANY reason except to make profits. They do not do it merely to be "hugely successful", but instead, to be "as successful as possible" with no limits. And BTW, Target is exactly the same.
post #75 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831 View Post

Sorry, when you measure company size (as in "largeness"), the accepted measurement is revenue, not market capitalization. The three largest companies in America today are Wal-mart, Exxon Mobil, and Chevron.

Someday, AI may actually properly report financial topics accurately.

But not today.

Perhaps, but you can't compare a retail operation's revenue to a resource extraction company or a manufacturing company. A better measure is value added. How much of a company's revenue is value it actually created rather than just costs that go straight out the door and into a supplier's bank account.
post #76 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOROM View Post

Apple's reputation is so valuable it cannot be priced, but it may be worth more that all that cash that they have in the bank. If many people begin to believe (with a basis in truth) that Apple is not a "good" corporate citizen, Apple will be badly hurt.


If and when it becomes more profitable to give money to charity, Apple will do so. So far, however, there is no real need to do so.

Apple exists to make money. If they can make lots more by giving away a little bit, they will do so. But they will never give money away for any reason other than getting MORE money back.
post #77 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOROM View Post

Well I think that successful corporations have a responsibility beyond just profits. Apple obviously believes that too (see their environmental policies). So you obviously disagree with Apple.

Does that make you feel silly or superior?

You are picking the wrong sort of institutions. Corporations have no such responsibility.

Apple believes that their environmental policies will yield higher total profits, via the PR value of having such policies. The policies are just a means to an end. They make people such as you "like" Apple, and they establish the brand in your mind as "good". That, in turn, yields sales and profits. If Apple thought that a slash and burn policy would yield higher total profits, they would rape and pillage. That's what Apple is.
post #78 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOROM View Post

And the crazy thing about all you who say that profits are the only thing a corporation should care about is, Apple has (at least under Jobs) been focused on quality first, not profits.

I believe that in the Apple culture profits are seen as the outcome of creating great products, not the goal.

Nope. Not correct.

The goal is profits. Making great products is the means to the goal. If they could increase total profits by making crap, they would do it.

It may be that they convince run-of-the-mill employees that "quality first" is the goal. When I worked in retail, the training school drilled into us that "customer satisfaction" was the goal. But in both cases, it was a means, and not an end.
post #79 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by BUSHMAN4 View Post

Better off putting your money in Apple than T-Bills or Bank Accounts. Its probably safer.

Generally, comments like this precede large crashes. Or so say Joe Kennedy and Bernard Baruch.
post #80 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

Generally, comments like this precede large crashes. Or so say Joe Kennedy and Bernard Baruch.

Even Krugman is on board now with a 50/50 chance of the world entering another recession.

From today:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_955507.html

The risk of global recession is "quite high, maybe 50 percent," Krugman told Bloomberg. He added: "The risk of something that feels like a recession is much higher than that. My central belief is that we're likely to have higher unemployment a year from now than we do today."
melior diabolus quem scies
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