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Everybody's pray-ay-ing...don't pray on meeeee! - Page 2

post #41 of 63
My point was, that there are also such a large number of variables that apply to things that "believers" ascribe to "answered prayer" that the results could have easily happened without ANY divine intervention... ergo... perhaps it WASN'T an answered prayer, it was just the way things work.
Miracles... it's less complicated to see natural processes at work than it is to invent some all-powerful deity that steps in and alters reality. Experience has led humanity to understand that the simpler approach is generally the correct one. ...and there's nothing simple about a reality-altering deity.

If you question your belief, then your faith isn't 100% ... I'm not sure the god of the bible will accept that as good enough... you might as well leave him in your childhood with all the other fairy tales.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #42 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

My point was, that there are also such a large number of variables that apply to things that "believers" ascribe to "answered prayer" that the results could have easily happened without ANY divine intervention... ergo... perhaps it WASN'T an answered prayer, it was just the way things work.
Miracles... it's less complicated to see natural processes at work than it is to invent some all-powerful deity that steps in and alters reality. Experience has led humanity to understand that the simpler approach is generally the correct one. ...and there's nothing simple about a reality-altering deity.

If you question your belief, then your faith isn't 100% ... I'm not sure the god of the bible will accept that as good enough... you might as well leave him in your childhood with all the other fairy tales.

You have absolutely no idea WTF you're talking about. Really.
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post #43 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You have absolutely no idea WTF you're talking about. Really.

... By someone who appears to "believe" in a deity based on... No evidence whatsoever.
(or IS there some supporting evidence you'd be willing to share?)
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #44 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You have absolutely no idea WTF you're talking about. Really.

A typical SDW response. My signature applies completely.
post #45 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

A typical SDW response. My signature applies completely.

No, he really doesn't. Example:

Quote:
If you question your belief, then your faith isn't 100% ...

Any person who makes this statement is utterly ignorant of faith...particularly mine.

Quote:

I'm not sure the god of the bible will accept that as good enough...

This one shows even more ignorance. It shows a complete lack of understanding of Christian faith. One does not need to subscribe to a religion to have some understanding.

Quote:

you might as well leave him in your childhood with all the other fairy tales.

That one is just offensive.
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post #46 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


That one is just offensive.

Why? ... Just because YOU believe it, doesn't make it any more true than any other fairy tale.

No?... where's your proof?
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #47 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

public acts of stupidity.

Maybe I missed the relevant passage in the article, but what exactly are you referring to?
post #48 of 63
Please forgive me the belated reply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008
I would say that during the pre-1900s to 1970s ethnic Malays simply considered Islam part of the Malay culture. There was enough widespread flexibility in their practice of Islam that I think they didn't question the "forcing" of religion upon them. There are many instances of more liberal dress codes, drinking of alcohol, witchcraft and other such "deviations" in the past.

When Islam first reached that part of South East Asia it was more tolerant and enlightened than in later centuries, Islams expansion there was also peaceful and gradual, unlike say, in Egypt or Iran. It could be why it is more flexible.

Quote:
Post-WW2 things became more complicated because with the exposure to the modern world they caught the whiff of "standardised" Islam. In the past 20 years there have certainly been Malays that do not want to play ball with "standardised" Islam, the most prevalent strategy being paying lip service to their parents and the mosques while just doing whatever the heck they wanted (sex, drugs and rock n' roll [well, electronic music]).

With the development of modern technologies, several influences began having serious impact, notably Islamic hard-lining as in more women wearing religious (often Middle-Eastern inspired) garb and the extension of religious legislation (with which youre familiar), along with social secularisation, as in the adoption of those more permissive mores you mentioned.
I think that in the long term, secularisation will prevail as it did in countries where modernisation occured earlier.

Quote:
The catch is Christianity has a half-a-millenia head start in the separation from Roman Catholicism. The Church of England was the result of some rather heretical deviations from Christianity as it was known then. Protestants have a higher level of flexibility in worship compared to Islam... Since Islam didn't have a King Henry with a big army. The closest would have been the Ottoman empire(?). But I could be stretching things here.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a Bedouin some years ago, he was saying were having our own little Middle-Ages now adding if Europe got over it, so will we.

From the Renaissance to our times, Western Europe and its overseas grafts went from overwhelmingly religious to mostly secular, I think it was mostly due to extra-religious processes such as discoveries, inventions, and the new ideas these enabled. I also think that the religious wars of the XVIth and XVIIth centuries had as gradual long-term effect a growing disappointment with religion; perhaps the US, never having had a state-religion or religious war, is thus slightly more religious than most other developed countries.

Quote:
We have all the power of modern society at our disposal. But do we know when or how we are going to die? Do we know how to prevent it? What will the air be like tomorrow? Will I get a job? Will I get cancer? There is still much uncertainty and religion of whatever kind seems to be the solution for a lot of people.

One of the past strengths of religion is that it held promise of solace and redemption in a world where humans were mostly poor, ignorant, superstitious, and had shorter, more painful, and less safe lives.
An old rabbi once told me what modern science brought us is the deliverance from fear, I couldnt help noting that it also brought down religious authority, Im fine with that too he replied.
For a while, dazzled by scientific and technological advances, many thought that knowledge and reason will bring us a fully balanced, self-regulating, affluent, completely safe human existence and well have the definitive, unanimous answers to all these questions weve been dealing with for so long.
The XXth century showed otherwise.

While science and reason are the most proven tools we have to know about our World and to improve our condition in it, they wont answer all our questions nor shield us from uncertainties.

Religions can still prey on the unknown and those fears but less and less effectively so, and it would serve them better to be active in domains outside of scientific knowledge.

In the farther future, well be more reasonable and have more knowledge, and our lives will be more pleasant, more peaceful, and longer.
But well still have to deal with conflicts (including violent ones), misery, and crime, probably less than today. I suppose religions could find a place there.
But Im not all that optimistic for the near future and the younger among us should look at it with apprehension.

My time is up now, so that will have to do.
« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


חברים יש רק באגד
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« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


חברים יש רק באגד
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post #49 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Why? ... Just because YOU believe it, doesn't make it any more true than any other fairy tale.

No?... where's your proof?

It's offensive because you're calling my beliefs a fairy tale. I'm not asking you to believe what I do, but surely you can understand that people take offense at their belief systems being mocked, religious or not. See, the issue is that you're telling me what to believe. You'e indicting anyone with different beliefs than you. Ironically, this is exactly what you accuse evangelical Christians of doing (strike that...ALL christians).

As for proof, I have mine. I need not prove anything to you.
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post #50 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

... I need not prove anything to you.

But until you do, I'll mock such absurd beliefs. No, really!... how are they NOT absurd??

If you want me to NOT mock christians (or any religion, for that matter), then show me why I shouldn't. (...and just "be nice" isn't a good reason... when people do absurd things, they need to expect to be mocked for it. Just like when people do stupid/dangerous things, they should expect to be told not to.)
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #51 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

But until you do, I'll mock such absurd beliefs. No, really!... how are they NOT absurd??

If you want me to NOT mock christians (or any religion, for that matter), then show me why I shouldn't. (...and just "be nice" isn't a good reason... when people do absurd things, they need to expect to be mocked for it. Just like when people do stupid/dangerous things, they should expect to be told not to.)

I don't want you to do or "not do" anything. I'm simply saying that mocking a person's beliefs is offensive, at least to most people. Now, it is your right not to care if you offend people. It is your right to think that anyone who believes in God--in any form--is a moron. But when you choose to run around screaming that opinion, people are inclined to dislike you.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #52 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I don't want you to do or "not do" anything. I'm simply saying that mocking a person's beliefs is offensive, at least to most people. Now, it is your right not to care if you offend people. It is your right to think that anyone who believes in God--in any form--is a moron. But when you choose to run around screaming that opinion, people are inclined to dislike you.

SDW, I don't want you to do or "not do" anything. I'm simply saying that mocking a person's beliefs is offensive, at least to most people. Now, it is your right not to care if you offend people. It is your right to think that anyone who believes in social policy combined with responsible taxation--in any form--is a moron. But when you choose to run around screaming that opinion, people are inclined to dislike you.
post #53 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

SDW, I don't want you to do or "not do" anything. I'm simply saying that mocking a person's beliefs is offensive, at least to most people. Now, it is your right not to care if you offend people. It is your right to think that anyone who believes in social policy combined with responsible taxation--in any form--is a moron. But when you choose to run around screaming that opinion, people are inclined to dislike you.

I guess they are both religious beliefs. Of a sort.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #54 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

SDW, I don't want you to do or "not do" anything. I'm simply saying that mocking a person's beliefs is offensive, at least to most people. Now, it is your right not to care if you offend people. It is your right to think that anyone who believes in social policy combined with responsible taxation--in any form--is a moron. But when you choose to run around screaming that opinion, people are inclined to dislike you.

I realize you think that's clever, but it doesn't make sense. I don't think that anyone who believes in responsible taxation--in any form--is a moron. I don't even think people that want very high taxes are "morons." I just think they are wrong.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #55 of 63
I guess this belongs in this thread.

post #56 of 63
Thread Starter 
Hah, I've seen that. Funny and true.

I suppose I'll plop this down here, too. Couldn't find Fellows' superhuge evolution thread from days of yore to bump so here will do. It fits nicely with religious folks denying reality.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #57 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Hah, I've seen that. Funny and true.

I suppose I'll plop this down here, too. Couldn't find Fellows' superhuge evolution thread from days of yore to bump so here will do. It fits nicely with religious folks denying reality.

Why are you posting a satire about global warming in this thread?

Oh wait, I forgot, when it's JEBUS it's funny, but when it's carbon dioxide instead of the sun, then the picture won't be as funny for you.

Carbon dioxide, it's a duck!

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #58 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Why are you posting a satire about global warming in this thread?

Oh wait, I forgot, when it's JEBUS it's funny, but when it's carbon dioxide instead of the sun, then the picture won't be as funny for you.

Carbon dioxide, it's a duck!

Um... I think you got this analogy backward. But you're making progress.

And yes, it's exactly like global warming.
post #59 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Um... I think you got this analogy backward. But you're making progress.

And yes, it's exactly like global warming.

Don't worry, you didn't even qualify as the teacher's aide so I'll trust my grade is just fine.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #60 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Um... I think you got this analogy backward. But you're making progress.

And yes, it's exactly like global warming.

Nope, this time you missed it, read it again.

Carbon dioxide is the duck on the box, the sun is Winnie the Pooh.

Now do you see what he was saying?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #61 of 63
Thread Starter 
Clearly you will see whatever you want to see regardless of the facts. Your record indicates as such. Kind of the point of the whole fucking comic.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #62 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Clearly you will see whatever you want to see regardless of the facts. Your record indicates as such. Kind of the point of the whole fucking comic.


BR wins because his point is more ironic. He holds as fact, differences in opinion while treating as opinion, a giant star that gives us all life.

My irony meter just exploded.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #63 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Clearly you will see whatever you want to see regardless of the facts. Your record indicates as such. Kind of the point of the whole fucking comic.

Clearly you have a prejudged opinion of whatever is said and no information given will change that. Kind of the point of the response to the comic.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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