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Samsung vows to step up legal action against Apple for 'free riding' on its inventions

post #1 of 216
Thread Starter 
A Samsung executive has promised to become "more aggressive" in pursuing legal action against Apple, as the company believes the iPhone maker has been "free riding" on its patented technologies.

Lee Younghee, head of global marketing for mobile communications at Samsung, spoke with the Associated Press about the ongoing, bitter legal dispute between her company and Apple. She said that Samsung had previously been "passive" in its approach, but vowed that the South Korean electronics maker will now take a stronger stance against Apple.

"We'll be pursuing our rights for this in a more aggressive way from now on," she reportedly said.

Lee didn't specifically say that her company will file more lawsuits, but the comments come as a number of reports have claimed that Samsung is planning new legal action against Apple across the world. The company is rumored to be plotting lawsuits against Apple's still-unannounced fifth-generation iPhone when it goes on sale in Samsung's home country of Korea, as well as across Europe.

Lee said that Samsung has held back largely because Apple is a major customer. One estimate earlier this year projected that Apple would buy $7.8 billion in parts from Samsung, making it the component maker's largest customer.

"We've been quite respectful and also passive in a way," Lee reportedly said. "However, we shouldn't be... anymore."

Samsung's revised stance comes as Apple is believed to be inking deals with other suppliers. Samsung currently builds Apple's custom-designed A4 and A5 processors that power the iPhone 4 and iPad 2, respectively, but future chips are expected to be built by Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. Similarly, this week it was said Apple is purchasing flash memory from Japan to move away from Samsung.



Apple's reliance on Samsung for components may even have resulted in information leaks about unannounced products for the secretive Cupertino, Calif., company. Last week it was revealed that a former Samsung manager testified to leaking early information about Apple's first-generation iPad to representatives from a hedge fund.

The growing litigation between Apple and Samsung began when Apple filed suit in April, accusing Samsung of copying the look and feel of the iPhone and iPad. Since then, Samsung has fired back with its own lawsuits, in which it has alleged that Apple violates Samsung's patented wireless technologies in its portable devices.
post #2 of 216
Im quaking in my boots....

Its like that small pet dog geting angry at the big dogs Its almost cute!
post #3 of 216
Free riding as in "paying reasonable licensing fees for FRAND patents"?
post #4 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkichline View Post

Free riding as in "paying reasonable licensing fees for FRAND patents"?

Please quote the exact terms under which those F/RAND licenses are granted, and provide evidence that those license terms do not include any reciprocal or retaliatory clauses.
post #5 of 216
Apple calls Samsung out for ripping off it style for mobile devices and now Samsung suddenly "remembers" all these awesome patents and technologies they own and didn't think about it before Apple called them out.
post #6 of 216
Kettle!!! My money's on Apple ... literally.
post #7 of 216
if you want to "step up" legal action, do it! Threat like this only make you looks childish. Bye bye Samsung (from my house).
post #8 of 216
The sadly ironic part of this whole thing is that Samsung will, in the long-run, end up losing more money in lost business from Apple than they'll ever make up in tablet and smartphone sales. You really have to wonder what's going on in their collective mind.
post #9 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post

if you want to "step up" legal action, do it! Threat like this only make you looks childish. Bye bye Samsung (from my house).

Personally I'd rather see every take it down a notch or two rather than step it up.
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post #10 of 216
Chalk up patent reform as another item that needs to get done ASAP. I am getting sick and tired of companies sueing each other over "intellectual property", especially in cases where in some cases they have PURCHASED patent portfolios for the express purpose of suing someone!!! Enough!!! It's a smart phone. THEY ALL LOOK AND FUNCTION THE SAME WAY, the only differences being in software.

The people who this affects the most? You and I, the consumer, who have to suffer higher prices when a company goes to court.
post #11 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfmorrison View Post

Please quote the exact terms under which those F/RAND licenses are granted, and provide evidence that those license terms do not include any reciprocal or retaliatory clauses.

The licenses are for essential technologies. Seemingly, the alleged infringed patents are not covered under the licenses.
post #12 of 216
Samsung CEO failed the basic jobs of being a CEO.

As a CEO one of his main jobs is damage control. This is basic and the guy is burying Samsung in stupidity and this is how.

This is not a matter of who is right or wrong. This is damage control or in other words, trying to come alive with less losses as possible.

Samsung is not known exactly as a innovator, so, they have not a single strong patent to defend themselves. Apple on the other hand, is a strong innovator and has at least 300 patents just for the iphone and iPad. So, in court Samsung has very little chances of winning anything.

These are the scenarios they had:

1) Apple complained they were copying their stuff and asked for changes. This was previous to court action. At this time, they should have made changes. They missed their chance. This was the least loss case.

2) Apple started a court action in the US. They should contact Apple and try to settle. Instead they pushed their luck and Apple started other actions in other countries, they retaliate in all countries, using phony arguments as "the tablet idea was created in a 1969 movie" and are losing in every country.

3) Apple pissed, started to moving their processors, display, flash and memory orders from Samsung to Toshiba, Soc and other companies in Japan. Samsung is losing their major customer, Apple and a 7.8 billion dollar check every year.

And the worst part of that for them is that Tim Cook is a master of the supplies and logistic. I am sure Cook's strategy will inflict maximum damages to Samsung in all fronts, without causing any trouble for idevices production.

Resuming: instead of making some changes to their hardware and software and keep Apple as a customer, losing a couple of dollars to do that, they decided to spank Apple and lose their 7.8 billion check and at the same time, send a message to the industry on how they treat their customers.

Again, this is not a question of who is wrong or write, this is damage control.

Nice job Samsung.
post #13 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfmorrison View Post

Please quote the exact terms under which those F/RAND licenses are granted, and provide evidence that those license terms do not include any reciprocal or retaliatory clauses.

That's the for the courts to determine. Since they are using the term "free ride", it appears that Samsung feels that Apple is getting unfair benefit from something they had made available. They did not use infringement language in their PR.

I'm not a lawyer and don't have access to documentation to prove anything, which of course, is the reason for the lawsuits.
post #14 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by sommer182 View Post

Chalk up patent reform as another item that needs to get done ASAP. I am getting sick and tired of companies sueing each other over "intellectual property", especially in cases where in some cases they have PURCHASED patent portfolios for the express purpose of suing someone!!! Enough!!! It's a smart phone. THEY ALL LOOK AND FUNCTION THE SAME WAY, the only differences being in software.

The people who this affects the most? You and I, the consumer, who have to suffer higher prices when a company goes to court.

Before iPhone everybody acts as though they are king of mobile phones. They don't even innovate, buggie, function like shit and they act like kings of devices! Then came an underdog. Nearly everyone in the industry talks bad about this underdog. Calling by name and bark bark bark! Then one fine day all the users started buyiing this underdog like no day and nite! Sunddenky this underdog becomes top dog! And every shit hole started copying like they own a piece of the nderdog's innovation. So you go figure.
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post #15 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryb View Post

Apple calls Samsung out for ripping off it style for mobile devices and now Samsung suddenly "remembers" all these awesome patents and technologies they own and didn't think about it before Apple called them out.

Will Samsung have to sue all of the other manufacturers who are getting a free ride on their patents or will Apple be sacrificed, like Christ, and bear the patent infractions for the whole world?
post #16 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post

Samsung CEO failed the basic jobs of being a CEO.

As a CEO one of his main jobs is damage control. This is basic and the guy is burying Samsung in stupidity and this is how.

This is not a matter of who is right or wrong. This is damage control or in other words, trying to come alive with less losses as possible.

Samsung is not known exactly as a innovator, so, they have not a single strong patent to defend themselves. Apple on the other hand, is a strong innovator and has at least 300 patents just for the iphone and iPad. So, in court Samsung has very little chances of winning anything.

These are the scenarios they had:

1) Apple complained they were copying their stuff and asked for changes. This was previous to court action. At this time, they should have made changes. They missed their chance. This was the least loss case.

2) Apple started a court action in the US. They should contact Apple and try to settle. Instead they pushed their luck and Apple started other actions in other countries, they retaliate in all countries, using phony arguments as "the tablet idea was created in a 1969 movie" and are losing in every country.

3) Apple pissed, started to moving their processors, display, flash and memory orders from Samsung to Toshiba, Soc and other companies in Japan. Samsung is losing their major customer, Apple and a 7.8 billion dollar check every year.

And the worst part of that for them is that Tim Cook is a master of the supplies and logistic. I am sure Cook's strategy will inflict maximum damages to Samsung in all fronts, without causing any trouble for idevices production.

Resuming: instead of making some changes to their hardware and software and keep Apple as a customer, losing a couple of dollars to do that, they decided to spank Apple and lose their 7.8 billion check and at the same time, send a message to the industry on how they treat their customers.

Again, this is not a question of who is wrong or write, this is damage control.

Nice job Samsung.


same as when Sony and other japanese companies invaded with cheap TV's decades ago. except this time US companies can defend themselves from the asian cloners
post #17 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by habi View Post

Im quaking in my boots....

Its like that small pet dog geting angry at the big dogs Its almost cute!

I wouldn't underestimate Samsung. Excluding market cap, they are about 4 times as big as Apple. Now that said, I think Samsung is probably fighting a losing battle. Everyone who is not polarized knows that Apple has released certain products which are followed by remarkably similar products from Samsung. In the end, that's probably what matters. Samsung may win a few rounds on various patents. Their history is the problem here, however. They can try to prove prior concept, but they've never released anything before Apple. That's not going to go well for them.
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post #18 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfmorrison View Post

Please quote the exact terms under which those F/RAND licenses are granted, and provide evidence that those license terms do not include any reciprocal or retaliatory clauses.

Try this:

Quote:
An IPR holder that commits to license its patents on F/RAND terms and conditions has irrevocably committed to allow the standard to be implemented under its IPR on a F/RAND basis and thereby waived the right to exclude others from practicing the standard under its IPR. An IPR holder that commits to license its patents on F/RAND terms and conditions cannot use its hold-up power resulting from the incorporation of its technology into the standard to demand royalties that do not comply with F/RAND.

Once an IPR holder has made a F/RAND commitment, all designers have the right to implement the standard in their products and use the inventions from any declared essential IPRs, and there is no need to wait until all the particular F/RAND terms and conditions have been negotiated with the IPR holder or until a definitive license agreement is executed setting out those terms.

If you review the wording of any of the standards bodies in which Samsung participates with their IPR, you will fiind these same standards in place. I invite you to do your own homework and not demand that others perform the due diligence you seem to lack.

The problem for Samsung is that they are attempting to patent ambush Apple in order to get enough dust in the air to force a rescinding of Apple's charges of unfair design infringment against Samsung. This is one of the reasons Apple holds such a large war chest - undoubtably they looked over the telecommunications IPR/licensing situation and acknowledged that there were positions that would allow abuse by standards-based IPR holders in order to create anti-competitive situations where they would try to leverage additional licensing royalites beyond F/RAND.

In the case where a company like Apple that was highly successful in producing competing products, could be sued to leverage additional, heavier, royalties to mitigate that success. It is anti-competitive in that they chose to leverage participation in standards organizations in order to drive use of their licenses and generate royalties, but now do not want to follow the limitations set and demand higher payments or double-up payments by both the company producing the technology under the license, and the company using the licensed technology - "double-dipping" if you will.

The down side to this also contains an upside - as litigation points out some of the holes in standards policy for F/RAND, these cases will cause standards bodies to clarify the terms of standards participation and close the gaps which allow anti-competitive licensing behaviors. Keep in mind also that it is the chipset manufacturers that are responsible to pay royalties for using the standards technology in question, not the device manufacturer using the chipset. Nokia tried to leverage additional licensing fees from Apple in order to slow-down Apple development and to derive additional revenue from their licenses - Apple refused to pay the licensing, showing that the chipset manufacturer had already paid the licenses (and that cost was incorporated into the cost of the chipset as well) and that the terms of use by the standards organization did not include charging licensing to device manufacturers using that chipset. The settlement between Nokia and Apple demonstrated that Nokia knew they could not successfully litigate the additional charges and thus the one-time settlement payment from Apple instead of ongoing license payments in the final settlement.

Samsung is trying the same approach to force Apple to back down on their suits against Samsung, and is trying to spread it wide enough to have a significant financial impact to Apple. Unfortunately Apple has a very large war chest, and if their technology development plans involve further expansion into mobile technologies (and I believe they have demonstrated that conclusively) then they have a vested and determined interest in successfully litigating adherence to F/RAND policies by companies licensing technologies as a part of standards. I mentioned this previously, but it bears repeating: standards policies specify use of the IPR in the manufacturing of technology - like Qualcomm's Snapdragon chipsets for example. That is where the license fees are applied, not in the eventual use of that chipset in other devices. Since the cost of the licensed IPR is already incorporated into the price of the chipset as sold to device makers, standards IPR holders are not allowed under policy to demand further licensing from downstream device makers - which is what Samsung is (like Nokia) trying to do.
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post #19 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

same as when Sony and other japanese companies invaded with cheap TV's decades ago. except this time US companies can defend themselves from the asian cloners

You forgot to mention, often times higher quality TVs compared to what was built in the U.S. Sad, but true.

I see this entire argument over "look and feel" to be ridiculous in the first place. There are very few choices in design for a sleek tablet, but it is apparent that Samsung chose to make a device that looks very similar to the iPhone and iPad. Do I care, no? The Samsung devices still run Android, not iOS, so my business stays with Apple. The argument that the average customer cannot tell the difference or will somehow be confused by this is an insult to anyone with an average IQ and is just fodder for the lawyers.

Let people copy each other's designs. Why? Because then it truly comes down to who makes the best product. Even if they look the same, Samsung's phones are plastic versus the iPhones steel and glass. The difference in build quality is evident. So Samsung decided to put apps icons in a grid format with a little dock to ape Apple. So? That doesn't make their product better than Apples? That is like comparing a $15,000 car versus a $30,000 car...build quality.

Why do I feel this way? Because Apple is just a guilty of this. A prime example is this new notification bar that is in iOS 5 which remarkably resembles the Android notification bar. So how can Apple sue for look and feel infringements, but then do the very same thing...while publicly touting the new feature?

No lawsuits should be filed. It is a waste of time and money. Apple is now making the correct and appropriate move, something they should have done earlier, by dropping Samsung as a customer. Samsung will feel the loss of about $8 billion a year much more than the loss of potential tablet and phone sales.
post #20 of 216
Stupid. Litigation only makes lawyers rich, and normally hardly makes any impact when companies are working so closely.

Why not bury the hatchet...both of them, and save money on lawyer fees and all that crud? Samsung drops their suits, Apple drops theirs, and they co-produce new tech. Rather than fight, if they teamed up the two of them could corner the ENTIRE market, since they have the best products and Samsung has a very large reach. Apple could put their systems in Samsung TV's and other electronics to get more people into their ecosystem, and Samsung could use Apple patents to make a product for those that just refuse to use Apple because of some personal agenda.
post #21 of 216
This only shows how brittle the Samsung sense of honor really is. Apple has humiliated Samsung. They are now known as a pirate company. No-one GLOBALLY would believe anyone other than AAPL invented the iPhone and iPad. These are Apple designs. Everyone thought these designs were a bit stupid! Only after Apple success were they cloned.

Developing-country Asia rules of business are not compatible with truly civilized business, full design/IPR vestment etc. Samsung has been caught playing beneath its own honor. Rather than elevate itself as world-class company like Apple, Samsung further humiliates itself, due to I can only imagine, some humiliated old men in Seoul who, in their country, have not heard the word "No" spoken to them in decades. Oops Samsung.
post #22 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post

Samsung CEO failed the basic jobs of being a CEO.

As a CEO one of his main jobs is damage control. This is basic and the guy is burying Samsung in stupidity and this is how.

This is not a matter of who is right or wrong. This is damage control or in other words, trying to come alive with less losses as possible.

Samsung is not known exactly as a innovator, so, they have not a single strong patent to defend themselves. Apple on the other hand, is a strong innovator and has at least 300 patents just for the iphone and iPad. So, in court Samsung has very little chances of winning anything.

These are the scenarios they had:

1) Apple complained they were copying their stuff and asked for changes. This was previous to court action. At this time, they should have made changes. They missed their chance. This was the least loss case.

2) Apple started a court action in the US. They should contact Apple and try to settle. Instead they pushed their luck and Apple started other actions in other countries, they retaliate in all countries, using phony arguments as "the tablet idea was created in a 1969 movie" and are losing in every country.

3) Apple pissed, started to moving their processors, display, flash and memory orders from Samsung to Toshiba, Soc and other companies in Japan. Samsung is losing their major customer, Apple and a 7.8 billion dollar check every year.

And the worst part of that for them is that Tim Cook is a master of the supplies and logistic. I am sure Cook's strategy will inflict maximum damages to Samsung in all fronts, without causing any trouble for idevices production.

Resuming: instead of making some changes to their hardware and software and keep Apple as a customer, losing a couple of dollars to do that, they decided to spank Apple and lose their 7.8 billion check and at the same time, send a message to the industry on how they treat their customers.

Again, this is not a question of who is wrong or write, this is damage control.

Nice job Samsung.


I couldn't have said it better myself
post #23 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post

if you want to "step up" legal action, do it! Threat like this only make you looks childish. Bye bye Samsung (from my house).

They should file something, this is just PR. They drove Apple away from the negotiating table and now realize they are in the process of losing a ton of money. Their profits have been in free fall for the last 2 quarters. They think they can bully Apple back in. Good luck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I wouldn't underestimate Samsung. Excluding market cap, they are about 4 times as big as Apple. Now that said, I think Samsung is probably fighting a losing battle. Everyone who is not polarized knows that Apple has released certain products which are followed by remarkably similar products from Samsung. In the end, that's probably what matters. Samsung may win a few rounds on various patents. Their history is the problem here, however. They can try to prove prior concept, but they've never released anything before Apple. That's not going to go well for them.

You also need to exclude profits and cash. Since those will be two huge factors in a legal battle, I am not sure you should. Unless Samsung plans to stop operating the business and pour all their revenue into filing lawsuits, I am not sure how your 4x matters at all.
post #24 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antinous View Post

Will Samsung have to sue all of the other manufacturers who are getting a free ride on their patents or will Apple be sacrificed, like Christ, and bear the patent infractions for the whole world?

Apple is not Christ-like in any manner.
post #25 of 216
That is kind of Apple's point. Everybody is copying Apple making their devices look exactly the same. That is a problem for a company that tries to distinguish itself based on design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sommer182 View Post

THEY ALL LOOK AND FUNCTION THE SAME WAY
post #26 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Personally I'd rather see every take it down a notch or two rather than step it up.

Everybody wants everyone to calm down. It's Samsung who want to "step up".
post #27 of 216
unless you are Apple shareholders, IMO. Have you really not seen this comming?
post #28 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wovel View Post

They should file something, this is just PR. They drove Apple away from the negotiating table and now realize they are in the process of losing a ton of money. Their profits have been in free fall for the last 2 quarters. They think they can bully Apple back in. Good luck.

Yeah good luck with that. They should try to settle with Apple out of court instead. I think the success of Apple's international legal campaign took them by surprise.
post #29 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjb View Post

unless you are Apple shareholders,

Why?
post #30 of 216
I don't think Apple wants a patent war, they just want others to stop copying their products. If Samsung wants to start a war instead of stop copying, they will lose, since the winner of a patent war is the one who has invented the most, and that is clearly Apple.

Samsung need to throw some cold water on their face and realise they are in the weaker position and contact Apple for negotiations, because if they go to court they will waste a lot money on legal fees only to have a judge rule against them.
post #31 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by fecklesstechguy View Post

The problem for Samsung is that they are attempting to patent ambush Apple in order to get enough dust in the air to force a rescinding of Apple's charges of unfair design infringment against Samsung. This is one of the reasons Apple holds such a large war chest - undoubtably they looked over the telecommunications IPR/licensing situation and acknowledged that there were positions that would allow abuse by standards-based IPR holders in order to create anti-competitive situations where they would try to leverage additional licensing royalites beyond F/RAND..

There may be some F/RAND encumbered patents that Samsung is claiming against Apple. That's yet to be determined. But even Apple doesn't say that applies to all of them, with FOSSPatents guessing that it may be roughly half, give or take.
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post #32 of 216
AAPL, just buy Samsung and S.Korea.

With the loose change buy the North...
post #33 of 216
Apple's IP in those A4 and A5 chips is probably in jeopardy, Samsung's management seem quite insane.
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post #34 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post

Everybody wants everyone to calm down. It's Samsung who want to "step up".

But it's Apple who not just wants to get more aggressive but has stepped it up another notch with yet another round of suits filed just this month against Samsung.

If Samsung responds more strongly in the future I won't be surprised of course. Neither one is coming off as angels in this.
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post #35 of 216
post #36 of 216

So that will be an easy one for Apple to dismiss. Just pay the "reasonable" licensing fees and it goes away. Simple.
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post #37 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

But it's Apple who not just wants to get more aggressive but has stepped it up another notch with yet another round of suits filed just this month against Samsung.

If Samsung responds more strongly in the future I won't be surprised of course. Neither one is coming off as angels in this.

Apple didn't make a threat like a low level gangster. As a consumer I can't trust a company behaving this way.
post #38 of 216
Apple sues HTC over auto hyperlinking text in emails? "Good. Serves them right for competing against Apple using Android in a manner that could never be confused with iOS"

Anyone sues Apple? "Losers, cheap Asians. All Asians are cheap. Ban Asia."

It's humorous mostly.
post #39 of 216

Looks like Samsung is concerned with the Galaxy ban in the Netherlands, set to go on the 15th of October I believe. Apple only has to prove Samsung has not negotiated in a Fair or Reasonable manner.
post #40 of 216
Like a petulant child...
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