Chinese carrier says Apple's iPhone 5 will support high-speed HSPA+ - Page 2

Correct.

In December 2010, they redefined 4G to include first-generation LTE, WiMax and HSPA+.

1) I think I found where you got your panties bunched. The ITU has a formal definition of '4G' just like many organization before it, but that does not mean that any and all use of '4G' is defined by the ITU. In the Venn diagram there would be two circles: everything that can be defined as '4G' and formal terms of the ITU with a sliver of overlap for '4G'.

2) It's you that have fallen victim to the ITU's marketing of '4G' that it has since relaxed.

Following a detailed evaluation against stringent technical and operational criteria, ITU has determined that “LTE-Advanced” and “WirelessMAN-Advanced” should be accorded the official designation of IMT-Advanced. As the most advanced technologies currently defined for global wireless mobile broadband communications, IMT-Advanced is considered as “4G”, although it is recognized that this term, while undefined, may also be applied to the forerunners of these technologies, LTE and WiMax, and to other evolved 3G technologies providing a substantial level of improvement in performance and capabilities with respect to the initial third generation systems now deployed. The detailed specifications of the IMT-Advanced technologies will be provided in a new ITU-R Recommendation expected in early 2012. 3) Why do you think that consumers should abide by, much less know of, the ITU definitions? Why is it so important to you that the AT&T, Verizon, Apple, and every other company and person in the world eschew the use of '4G' unless referring to the ITU's fluctuating definition which you've shown you don't actually know? You're still working off of old data when a static 100Mb/s specification made your eyes wide as saucers.


PS: The '5G' iPhone will have '4G' HSPA+.

Rather than supply facts and links to refute his assertions, you insult. Thanks for your participation.

As I recall EDGE was once considered a '3G' technology.

edit: These transitions are anything but concise. Not that they should be with so many complex technologies evolving at their own rate, but I kind of wish the ITU wasn't so quick to append a generational designation so far in advance.

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http://www.itu.int/ITU-D/imt-2000/Do...0/IMT-2000.pdf

This is getting the thread back on track. It seems like Apple would want to keep these phones on the most similar data speed planes possible. But can LTE be added to a device the size of the iPhone along with all the other cellular tech and still get good battery life? I'm not so sure.

I wonder if Verizon's charge against Apple in the Samsung case is a clue that they aren't getting anything special this time around.

*snicker* LOL!

The general public is usually misinformed but they understand that more G is better than less G. If G actually meant something like horsepower it would be fair but G is not a unit of measurement.

I hope to buy the iPhone 100.

Neither was Tim Cook; earlier this year, he mentioned "design compromises" that made LTE unfeasible at the time.

Let's face it, Apple has LTE-equipped iPhone prototypes somewhere in a lab in Cupertino. They have probably sampled every single LTE chipset available and they still can't find a part that is suitable for their design specifications. What we know right now, there is no LTE chip that includes the functions of the Qualcomm Gobi (GSM/UTMS/HSPA/HSPA+ as well as CDMA/EV-DO). That means a separate chip for LTE which implies bulk and power drain.

Next generation LTE chipsets are supposed to be sampled in Q4 of this year, with volume shipments early 2012. That doesn't work in the prototyping schedule for the upcoming iPhone 5 which likely had its final hardware components selected 2-3 months ago. When cellular chip manufacturers come up with their next generation designs, I'm certain that Apple will be amongst the first companies to sample the chips and stick them into prototypes.

The fact of the matter is that someone at Apple is rather picky of the components that go into the phone and is sensitive about how those parts relate to the overall user experience. That person's name was Steve and he probably green lighted the final fifth-generation iPhone design.

It remains to be seen who will make those final design decisions in future products, but if they are true Apple folks, they will likely be thinking, "What would Steve do?"

Sorry, but you're the one not getting it.


That is the problem. What speed are they getting?

I wonder, if it has HSPA+ in the US, if AT&T will market it as 4G...

I'm so tired of all the, "that's not real 4G" BS. It's gotten way worse than the marketing hype around 4G ever could have been to begin with.

Look, here we are with 3G, and a long way to go before 100mbs. So in the meantime, allow the marketing people to put the spin on it, and in this context, 4G really makes sense, but also get published bandwidth speeds.

21mbps, is friggin' awesome...if it's widely available. Hell, currently on AT&T, I'm usually getting 3mbps, which is fast enough that I usually don't bother turning on WiFi unless I'm at home or someplace where there's WiFi, but no 3G. It's what I call "Starbucks" speed, which is only slightly faster than "hotel" speed.

Aha, a reasonable reference. If I recall correctly, it was tossed around as something that could be called 3G but it was NEVER marketed as such by the major carriers. But why be forgiving of them now for calling anything faster than 3G as 4G?

I think Apple would try to match up the longevity of the device over trying to match up data rates across disparate network types.



This is the last I've read on the Gobi chips with LTE

http://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/tags/MDM9600
PS: I'd say that China Mobile is large enough their GSM/TD-SCMA network would get its own iPhone.

They did. The HTC Inspire and Samsung Infuse were marketed as 4G phones. If you look closely at the full specs, they were called 4G phones running on the HSPA+ 4G network.

And we are all ok with that sort of confusing marketing here?

Absolutely. T-Mobile USA first called HSPA+ '4G'. AT&T initially objected but had to cave in order to keep up the perception. As mstone stated, "The general public is usually misinformed but they understand that more G is better than less G." AT&T has been calling their devices with HSPA+ '4G' since they came aboard.

Really? Did you read what I wrote and what you yourself quoted?

Sorry, I shoulda been more specific. If they add the iPhone to that list they'll be the only US carrier saying "We have the iPhone 4, 4G!" I'm on the side of preferring more specific terms that show the difference but there is no marketing standards body. It's gonna get ugly but we are seeing what happens when carriers pick tech that doesn't end up winning out globally. Verizon and Sprint rolled the dice and crapped out.

Edit: all good for me as I'm in an HSPA+ area.

Again, why are you so far up the ITU's assoc. that anything they said years prior is canon when it comes to a usage that is clearly not intended by the teclos and handset makers. Nowhere do they state they are using the ITU's definition of '4G'. Nowhere!

This is telco and handset makers definition of '4G' to consumers. It's perfectly valid. This is the only definition that matters to consumers. When you're part to the ITU group you can grouse about your dogmatist ideals and how the consumer is too stupid to know that HSPA+ and LTE aren't real '4G'.

It's the 5G iPhone that will get 4G HSPA+ which will cost me about 3Gs over 2 years, 1 way or another.

Nope. Apple is not going to allow any fake 4g claims.

This sort of talk needs banning. Now!

Yipes, this looks like a heated debate....

On a totally separate topic....If the new phone will be marketed as a 4G, makes the Oct. 4th date and the 4 icons on the invite make more sense... Seemed strange to me that there was such an emphasis on FOUR for the iPhone 5 (iOS maybe released the next day but the phone will likely take weeks). If this rumor is true and if Apple chooses to highlight this feature, four could actually be the big hint.

The new phone maybe named iPhone 4G
(let the angry debating continue!)

I'd prefer to keep the 4G specification at 1000Mbps.

The American carriers only care about marketing slogans. I don't trust that they really care about improving their service.

If the iPhone is refreshed for Verizon and includes LTE then I think Apple calling it the iPhone 4G makes the most sense.

The last time it changed (December 2010), the ITU included HSPA+, LTE, and WiMAX in their classification of '4G'.

If the fifth-generation handset has HSPA+, Apple can legitimately call it 4G.

Spot on.

Let's move along.....

4G is faster than 3G.
this is what the public sees.

you're going to confuse the hell out of 90+% of consumers if you start marketing it as HSPA+ @ 21 mbps. Anyone [you and I] that's interested in true speed will look it up in the tech specs.

You are wrong. The original poster had it correct. 4G is more a marketing term. There is no one formal set of specifications that define it.

ok ok ok.........
Is the iP5 (bigger screen, sp-to-txt, etc) going to be announced on the 4th, or not???..........your thoughts??? thx

A little clarification seems in order [Emphasis supplied]....

"In telecommunications, 4G is the fourth generation of cellular wireless standards. It is a successor to the 3G and 2G families of standards. In 2009, the ITU-R organization specified the IMT-Advanced (International Mobile Telecommunications Advanced) requirements for 4G standards, setting peak speed requirements for 4G service at 100 Mbit/s for high mobility communication (such as from trains and cars) and 1 Gbit/s for low mobility communication (such as pedestrians and stationary users).[1]

A 4G system is expected to provide a comprehensive and secure all-IP based mobile broadband solution to laptop computer wireless modems, smartphones, and other mobile devices. Facilities such as ultra-broadband Internet access, IP telephony, gaming services, and streamed multimedia may be provided to users.

4G technologies such as mobile WiMAX and first-release Long term evolution (LTE) have been on the market since 2006[2] and 2009[3][4][5] respectively. The ITU announced in December 2010 that WiMax, LTE, and HSPA+ are 4G technologies.[6]

IMT-Advanced compliant versions of the above two standards are under development and called LTE Advanced and WirelessMAN-Advanced respectively. ITU has decided that LTE Advanced and WirelessMAN-Advanced should be accorded the official designation of IMT-Advanced.

On December 6, 2010, ITU announced that current versions of LTE, WiMax and other evolved 3G technologies that do not fulfill "IMT-Advanced" requirements could be considered "4G", provided they represent forerunners to IMT-Advanced and "a substantial level of improvement in performance and capabilities with respect to the initial third generation systems now deployed."[7]"

By the same token, discriminating between standards body organizations and marketing materials, none of the current 3G phones ever exactly met the ITU 3G spec either.

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Here are my thoughts.

Yes, the fifth-generation iPhone will be introduced on October 4.

Saying which features will be included in the handset is pure speculation. 98% of Apple rumors posted to tech media sites end up being wrong. If you put all of them in one big pot, you'd have a big mess of conflicting stories.

They will probably say something like "the new iPhone provides 4G speeds on networks that support it. Please contact your carrier for specifics."

It's not like Apple is going to apologize for a specific carrier's shortcomings. Remember, Apple considers mobile operators to be dumb pipes, nothing more.

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Yup. its the easiest thing Apple or really any company can do to avoid the confusing mess. this product is able to support X, Y and Z but it dependent on your carrier/region.

I remember facetime was not supported in the middle east or something. Not sure if its supported now but it was an issue then.

It's the same thing with Visual Voicemail: not every carrier supports it.

At the bottom of the iPhone's Features page is this disclaimer:

"Some features, applications, and services are not available in all areas. See your carrier for details. Application availability and pricing are subject to change."

4G speeds via HSPA+ would fall under this blanket disclaimer.

A link to such an authoritative source ... I must rethink this now

At the risk of bringing you back from the brink of appearance of equivocation, the existence of a standard is a fact that cannot be contradicted by the lack of awareness amongst the general public.

So, I'd still like to see a link or citation for the source of the formal specification of 4G, as opposed to the ITU's IMT-Advanced recommendation for marketing 4G. Or even just who you believe defined the specification for 4G.

Apple will use words in whatever manner is optimal for raking in the profits.

It is more of a source then anybody else has provided, including yourself.


With that said, you can do a simple Internet search and find lots of sources. Being already familiar with the topic, I took the first result that summarized the issue nicely.

I suppose your entitled to ignorance, but there is not a set standard for 4G. Provide us some of your research from what you'd be considered to be a reputable authority. I notice you didn't point us in the right direction. If I am so wrong, it should be easy to educate us. I know it is hard to actually attempt to find the truth.

The reality is the standard is evolving, with more then one proposed set of standards being considered. So, it is correct to say 4G is more of a marketing term in that you can have different sets of specifications that can be labeled 4G as there is not one unified standard yet. So the original commentator who said people should be less concerned with the term 4G and more concerned with real world performance is correct.