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Rumor: Amazon eyeing purchase of HP's Palm division for webOS Kindles - Page 2

post #41 of 63
9/30/11 at 9:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post


Amazon might sell between 100 and 1000 Kindle Fires. LOL.


Read it and weep:

Kindle Fire: 95,000 Orders On Day One

http://www.informationweek.com/news/...lets/231602481
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post #42 of 63
9/30/11 at 9:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by shen View Post

I have to admit, reading your other posts, the fact that you agree with me is the strongest indication i can imagine that i am dead wrong...

Hahaha! Perhaps the best post of the thread. Certainly the funniest.

ConradJoe appears to be another reincarnation of TechStud. With 424 posts so far after just signing up earlier this month(!), and most of them being techstud-ish, it makes you wonder...
No Matte == No Sale :-(
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post #43 of 63
9/30/11 at 9:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

You miss the point:

1) Amazon is interested in selling content and access to their store.

2) The Fire is a loss-leader to accomplish the above.

3) If purchasing WebOS could deliver 1) above -- there is no need for 2).

4) If they desire, Amazon could upgrade the Fire to use WebOS

Most likely, Amazon will encourage phone and tablet manufactures to offer a WebOS based Fire equivalent.


most of the apps won't work if the OS changes
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post #44 of 63
9/30/11 at 9:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

I've thought all along that that was the right move.
It really doesn't matter what the OS is because Amazon is simply slapping an easy-to-use vending machine on top of it.
If they intend to do apps (which I kind of doubt) then being stuck with Android 2.x is going to leave them in the ghetto. WebOS give them an opportunity to support really good web apps along with their vending machine.

This (and some other posts here) are exactly right. Or better said, this general path makes sense even if it isn't exactly what they're planning.

If the plan is to have a host of devices that are merely conduits to Amazon media content (with a few basic apps for fun), then they don't need to worry (much) about compatibility issues, app performance issues, Android updates, and a host of other stuff. WebOS would allow them to do all this without the IP overhead worries (potentially huge), and would give them a way to distinguish from all the other Android devices. They can just make a variety of screen sizes and form factors, with and without touch or keyboards, and they'll sell a bunch of units.

That's not to say it will compete in the same market as the iPad.
No Matte == No Sale :-(
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No Matte == No Sale :-(
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post #45 of 63
9/30/11 at 10:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

You miss the point:

1) Amazon is interested in selling content and access to their store.

2) The Fire is a loss-leader to accomplish the above.

3) If purchasing WebOS could deliver 1) above -- there is no need for 2).

4) If they desire, Amazon could upgrade the Fire to use WebOS

Most likely, Amazon will encourage phone and tablet manufactures to offer a WebOS based Fire equivalent.

1) Amazon can and does sell content and access to their store, now, on several platforms. That is complete.
2) Kindle Fire is selling for a loss. Amazon will need to get into software and hardware design for a new platform, and still write software for other platforms. Even more loss. Amazon will need to maintain parity with Apple, Samsung, and other tablet vendors otherwise they will have less market.
3) Amazon will cannot limit users access to content only thru Amazon itself. They will need to build for other now known and future unknown sources of information that people will demand access to. For example, Airlines, Universities, public schools, public libraries, all the above internationally.
4) Amazon will not remain the only source of online purchasing. They can't expect to hold a monopoly in this area.
5) Customers will not accept a Kindle device that restricts purchases only to Amazon.
6) Customers will not accept massive tracing of their purchases.

That is, Amazon is going to have to get into the tablet business whole-hog and for profit.
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post #46 of 63
9/30/11 at 10:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

[A bunch of stuff... etc. etc. etc.]

That is, Amazon is going to have to get into the tablet business whole-hog and for profit.

Then Amazon will need WebOS.
We know where you are. We know where youve been. We can more or less know what youre thinking about. - Eric Schmidt
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We know where you are. We know where youve been. We can more or less know what youre thinking about. - Eric Schmidt
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post #47 of 63
9/30/11 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

Amazon is already making waves in the tablet market (OOPS! There is no tablet market, there is only an iPad market, so Amazon is making waves in the iPad market).

But what confuses me is that I thought all 7 inch Ipads (remember, there is no tablet market; there is only an iPad market) would be Dead on Arrival, unless the manufacturer also included sandpaper to turn the users fingertips into a bloody pulp.

We'll see who is correct. Time will tell.

And not covered by AI, Lenovo is going to release a 7 inch Tweener for $200. It will have more features than the DOA Amazon 7 inch iPad. It too will be DOA if Lenovo fails to include sandpaper.

Why do all these companies think that they can sell a Tweener without including sandpaper? Crazy.

</sarcasm>



Agreed. It seems like a good match.

The tablet market seems to finally be catching fire (pun fully intended). This is good for all consumers. Apple proved that there is a viable category here, and other companies seem to be taking the ball and running with it.

What will be interesting is whether Apple can retain the dominant position like it did in the media player market, or whether it will be relegated to a large niche status, like in the smartphone market.


As long as those taking the ball and running with it continue to produce 7" tablets and NOT provide sandpaper in the box, Apple will retain their dominant position. The others may fill a niche with the 7" tablets but I believe Apple's size will retain mass appeal and will, therefore, dominate.

</no sarcasm>

Why does Apple bashing and trolling make people feel so good?

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Why does Apple bashing and trolling make people feel so good?

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post #48 of 63
9/30/11 at 10:40am
I can see Amazon having a good show with the fire. I can't predict if Amazon would buy WebOs but I think that would be a bad idea.
1-WebOs for tablets still needs a lot work. Do they abandon the Fire or continue to support it while trying to revive and finish a dead or frozen os?
2-It looks like Amazon has beaten the Google out of Android and has a nice looking product. Why kill it with fire and run away? Well...you know what I mean.
3-Buying WebOs would not be a cheap endeavor. Amazon could license it to other handset makers but they would have to finish it first. I think Amazon lacks the experience necessary and does not have a deep enough talent bench to pull that off.
4-Where the hell is the assumption that WebOs is immune to patent infringement coming from? They are probably safe from touch screen and gesture patents but they were not exactly the driving force in cell phone development.
Crying? No, I am not crying. I am sweating through my eyes.
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Crying? No, I am not crying. I am sweating through my eyes.
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post #49 of 63
9/30/11 at 11:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

most of the apps won't work if the OS changes

What apps?

I have read that most Android users don't use many apps.

The Fire hardware is too limited to run many Android apps.

I have read that WebOS has a superior (to all the other mobile OSes) development environment.

If you have the device numbers, the ecosystem and an App store -- you'll get the developers.

Amazon could develop a few key apps and Pay Developers (free advertising, no 30% cut, etc.) to develop key apps for WebOS.

I would think that there would be a transition period -- where the Fire (and follow-ons) could run Android until the WebOS ecosystem is up to speed.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #50 of 63
9/30/11 at 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

1) Amazon can and does sell content and access to their store, now, on several platforms. That is complete.
2) Kindle Fire is selling for a loss. Amazon will need to get into software and hardware design for a new platform, and still write software for other platforms. Even more loss. Amazon will need to maintain parity with Apple, Samsung, and other tablet vendors otherwise they will have less market.
3) Amazon will cannot limit users access to content only thru Amazon itself. They will need to build for other now known and future unknown sources of information that people will demand access to. For example, Airlines, Universities, public schools, public libraries, all the above internationally.
4) Amazon will not remain the only source of online purchasing. They can't expect to hold a monopoly in this area.
5) Customers will not accept a Kindle device that restricts purchases only to Amazon.
6) Customers will not accept massive tracing of their purchases.

That is, Amazon is going to have to get into the tablet business whole-hog and for profit.

Not necessarily!

Amazon could make the phone/tablet manufacturers an offer they couldn't [afford to] refuse.

1) A free OS

2) Some cut of the business from the Android ecosystem/store content sales

3) A popular high-traffic store to sell their devices

4) An unencumbered OS

5) A robust "tablet" OS

6) An OS with a level playing field


Android gives them 1) maybe 5)

MS gives them 6) maybe 5) -- for a price


Even if they could get iOS, Apple would not give the manufacturers 3) or 6) -- and probably not 1) or 2)


Think of it this way:

Amazon doesn't have to manufacture Tablets, Phones, Cables, Books... To do a good business selling Tablets, Phones, Cables, Books...

Selling is what they're good at!
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #51 of 63
9/30/11 at 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


Think of it this way:

Amazon doesn't have to manufacture Tablets, Phones, Cables, Books... To do a good business selling Tablets, Phones, Cables, Books...

Selling is what they're good at!

On top of a free OS, Amazon would sell their stuff for them as well.
We know where you are. We know where youve been. We can more or less know what youre thinking about. - Eric Schmidt
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We know where you are. We know where youve been. We can more or less know what youre thinking about. - Eric Schmidt
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post #52 of 63
9/30/11 at 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Not necessarily!

Amazon could make the phone/tablet manufacturers an offer they couldn't [afford to] refuse.

1) A free OS

2) Some cut of the business from the Android ecosystem/store content sales

3) A popular high-traffic store to sell their devices

4) An unencumbered OS

5) A robust "tablet" OS

6) An OS with a level playing field


Android gives them 1) maybe 5)

MS gives them 6) maybe 5) -- for a price


Even if they could get iOS, Apple would not give the manufacturers 3) or 6) -- and probably not 1) or 2)


Think of it this way:

Amazon doesn't have to manufacture Tablets, Phones, Cables, Books... To do a good business selling Tablets, Phones, Cables, Books...

Selling is what they're good at!


Very astute. They make good money selling other people's CE hardware. It is entirely possible that they could take Google up on its offer, and use Android for free.

The problem with using free versions of Android used to be that you couldn't get access to Google's services and products. If an OEM wanted to offer the real Android experience, it had to pay Google for it. Otherwise, it would have an inferior tablet.

But Amazon is not the typical tablet manufacturer, because they have mondo e-commerce capabilities, and everything that comes with it, like astounding software engineers, server farms, credit card processing, etc. They are in a unique position to take Android and make it their own, replacing the Google apps and services with home grown substitutes. Heck, they have already written a browser using cloud services and have gotten rave reviews.
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post #53 of 63
9/30/11 at 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdaddyp View Post

I can see Amazon having a good show with the fire. I can't predict if Amazon would buy WebOs but I think that would be a bad idea.
1-WebOs for tablets still needs a lot work. Do they abandon the Fire or continue to support it while trying to revive and finish a dead or frozen os?
2-It looks like Amazon has beaten the Google out of Android and has a nice looking product. Why kill it with fire and run away? Well...you know what I mean.
3-Buying WebOs would not be a cheap endeavor. Amazon could license it to other handset makers but they would have to finish it first. I think Amazon lacks the experience necessary and does not have a deep enough talent bench to pull that off.
4-Where the hell is the assumption that WebOs is immune to patent infringement coming from? They are probably safe from touch screen and gesture patents but they were not exactly the driving force in cell phone development.

You raise some good points!

I read that the HP hardware and OS teams did not work closely together -- kinda' passed each other in the middle of the night.

If Amazon could buy WebOS and the WebOS team for, say, $300 Million they could, likely, deliver a viable phone and tablet OS by 1Q 2012.

They could license WebOS at terms similar to what the manufactures are paying MS to use Android or will pay MS to use Windows 8 ARM (people have estimated $5-$10 per device).

From what I've seen/read WebOS is much further along and a better solution.

I believe Amazon could/would justify the purchase and on-going expenditure by increased sales of services and content through their online store.

Finally, by partnering with virtually all of the manufactures (except Apple and Nokia) it would be easy to isolate WebOS from any patents held by those manufacturers.

There are lots of opportunities for creative negations and deals.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #54 of 63
9/30/11 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

Very astute. They make good money selling other people's CE hardware. It is entirely possible that they could take Google up on its offer, and use Android for free.

The problem with using free versions of Android used to be that you couldn't get access to Google's services and products. If an OEM wanted to offer the real Android experience, it had to pay Google for it. Otherwise, it would have an inferior tablet.

But Amazon is not the typical tablet manufacturer, because they have mondo e-commerce capabilities, and everything that comes with it, like astounding software engineers, server farms, credit card processing, etc. They are in a unique position to take Android and make it their own, replacing the Google apps and services with home grown substitutes. Heck, they have already written a browser using cloud services and have gotten rave reviews.

You seem to be confused. The OS on the Fire is not Android.
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post #55 of 63
9/30/11 at 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

Very astute. They make good money selling other people's CE hardware. It is entirely possible that they could take Google up on its offer, and use Android for free.

The problem with using free versions of Android used to be that you couldn't get access to Google's services and products. If an OEM wanted to offer the real Android experience, it had to pay Google for it. Otherwise, it would have an inferior tablet.

But Amazon is not the typical tablet manufacturer, because they have mondo e-commerce capabilities, and everything that comes with it, like astounding software engineers, server farms, credit card processing, etc. They are in a unique position to take Android and make it their own, replacing the Google apps and services with home grown substitutes. Heck, they have already written a browser using cloud services and have gotten rave reviews.

There are several problems with Amazon (or anyone) basing their hardware on using Android.

1) Likely, Android will suffer some legal damage or injunctions

2) Likely, Android will give MMI favored treatment

3) Amazon may not get timely access to new Android versions -- and this will limit how they can compete in the general-purpose tablet market.

4) Likely, Google will have to charge for Android to recover the costs of the MMI purchase (otherwise it could take a decade, or more)

There's a whole lot of downside risk with Android -- that's why many manufacturers are looking for ways to cover their bets.


If Windows 8 ARM were available today, and robust enough for a tablet -- Amazon would probably be better off licensing it for $5-10 per device than going with "free" Android.


Just because Amazon releases a [special, limited-function] Android tablet... doesn't mean that it can't release other tablets with other OSes.


So, Bezos has some options -- and certainly some things to think about.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #56 of 63
9/30/11 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

You seem to be confused. The OS on the Fire is not Android.

Amazons Android Tablet May Be the Best and Kill the Rest

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/...oid-competion/
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post #57 of 63
9/30/11 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

There are several problems with Amazon (or anyone) basing their hardware on using Android.



3) Amazon may not get timely access to new Android versions -- and this will limit how they can compete in the general-purpose tablet market.

Likely, the simple older version of Android that they chose for the fire, combined with their software chops, will allow them to "update" it whenever they want, however they want.

This is a hybrid tablet/vending machine. People who buy it are not going to get a full featured product, and they know it. (No GPS or camera, no 3G, and certainly no gyroscope

The updates will be home brewed, just like the skin is now home brewed.
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post #58 of 63
9/30/11 at 1:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

Likely, the simple older version of Android that they chose for the fire, combined with their software chops, will allow them to "update" it whenever they want, however they want.

This is a hybrid tablet/vending machine. People who buy it are not going to get a full featured product, and they know it. (No GPS or camera, no 3G, and certainly no gyroscope

The updates will be home brewed, just like the skin is now home brewed.

True... but what about their next tablets -- the 10" and then the 8"?

I don't think there will be a market for these if they are just bigger Fire clones: What? Inferno? Bonfire?

If they get into the real tablet business they will need a newer, tablet, version of Android or a different OS.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #59 of 63
9/30/11 at 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Yeah, Amazon would not want to compete with its customers (of WebOS).

I can see several easy ways of handling that.

1) Freeze the Fire (that has a nice ring) hardware as is.

2) Offer all WebOS manufacturers the opportunity to compete with matching minimal hardware at the $199-$249 price point.

3) No takers -- Amazon continues to offer the low-end loss leader -- protecting the manufactures from having to compete at that level.

The irony here, is that Amazon could make money (or break even) selling a Fire-like tablet made by someone else -- instead of losing money selling the Fire made by (for) Amazon.

The other thing worth mentioning is that Apple, Google, MS could not buy WebOS (AntiTrust) -- and no one else has the online ecosystem to make WebOS attractive to smart phone and tablet manufacturers.




Actually I think any of the three companies mentioned could buy webOS if they chose to do so. Since webOS is basically dead, the chances that any company purchasing webOS would raise antitrust issues is rather slim. Any of the 3 companies could buy webOS just to bury it, not that they would, just to be certain that it stays dead.
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post #60 of 63
9/30/11 at 5:06pm
Amazon now owns the low end of the Android iPad clone market with Kindle Fire, so it's not clear that they would need webOS.
On the other hand, maybe Meg can do the right thing and keep webOS and TouchPad in HP's portfolio...

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post #61 of 63
10/1/11 at 3:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

There are several problems with Amazon (or anyone) basing their hardware on using Android.

So, Bezos has some options -- and certainly some things to think about.

I gotta admit DA, you have raised some very interesting points in this thread.
I'm kind of glad you don't work for Amazon! If they had your nouse they might actually go through with it and seriously challenge the iPad, which as a rabid Apple fan doesn't really impress me that much.
I don't buy into that 'Apple needs competition' crap.
Apple's best competition is its previous model of product.

Cheers.
..... the greatest fame comes from adding to human knowledge, not winning battles.
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..... the greatest fame comes from adding to human knowledge, not winning battles.
Paraphrased from Napolean Bonaparte, 1798
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post #62 of 63
10/1/11 at 6:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Less bullshit, for one reason. Who knows where and when these patent battles will end. Bezos might just want to stay clear of that mess if he can get WebOS for the right price. He's already got the man on board needed to consult him.

There's no reason to believe that WebOS is any less encumbered. It's less of a target because no one making any money off of it or selling many units. The only thing I really like about WebOS over Android UI wise is the cards metaphor.

The amusing thing is that Amazon can go to Oracle and work out an agreement prior to the trial then have a joint forked Android moving forward leaving Oracle with more leverage over Google.

Eh, unless WebOS is dirt cheap, I don't see why Amazon would bother.
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post #63 of 63
10/3/11 at 5:18pm
How is Amazon's new Kindle Fire the front line in a battle for the future?

They may be losing $50/ Fire sold. But this is not an e-reader, this is a general purpose tablet computer, so not everyone will buy a lot of books.

The stakes are high in this desperate strategy!
-- http://jmmxtech.wordpress.com/kindle-fire/ --

Select the "Analysis" link.
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