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The Left: Economic Schizophrenia

post #1 of 68
Thread Starter 
"Economic Schizophrenia" is the term that recently occurred to me as I watched what's been happening on Wall Street, Obama and Congressional Dems. Even some here seem to have symptoms of this disease.

The disease manifests itself as an inability to focus on and address issues. A question regarding job growth is answered by proclaiming that we have to address our debt problem and invest in infrastructure. A question on the deficit results in an answer that focuses on how we need to jump start the economy.

Even debates here tend to have the same script:

Liberal: We need to raise taxes on the rich!

Conservative: Why?

Liberal: We need the people that can afford it to help get us out of this mess!

Conservative: How will raising taxes help the economy?

Liberal: We need to address the deficit and invest in infrastructure, you idiot! Why do you hate the poor! We need to create jobs, not give tax breaks to the wealthy. Let the Bush tax cuts expire! Close loopholes!

Conservative: Closing loopholes and letting the Bush cuts expire provides only a fraction of the money needed to lower the deficit. And that's assuming it doesn't harm the economy.

Liberal: "--ism"
----------------------------------------------

The Wall Street protestors apparently have the same disease with slightly different symptoms. The "solutions" they are calling for are exactly what they are against...and pushed by one Barack Obama (bought and paid for by Wall Street), whom they apparently support. They have called for "freedom" and "opportunity," but also for the suspension of the Democratic process in many cases. They want jobs, but hate the companies that offer them. And this is to say nothing of the self-obsessed entitlement mentality they seem to possess. One interviewee stated that she "knew several people who recently graduated from prestigious schools that STILL didn't have full-time jobs." The horror!

Watch a brainwashed 9 year old talk about "reverse Robin Hood."

Watch the morons.


As for the administration and Congress, I think the real root of the disease is two-fold:

1) They don't understand the economy and what it needs to recover.

2) They are trying to do too many different things at once. Instead of focusing on job creation through economic growth, they are trying to "fix" everything in accordance with their liberal worldview, while at the same time running for re-election. This produces contradictory goals. They know enough to realize businesses need incentives and stability to create jobs, but also know their liberal voting base wants more "progressive" tax policy. They know consumer spending is key, but insist on taking more of what people earn.

Through it all, we have a President who honestly believes in a "not undemocratic" European Socialism. As his policies fail and the economy falters, he becomes more angry and divisive in his rhetoric. Both he and the Left in general have seen their policies not only fail, but be overwhelmingly rejected by the mainstream American public. Watching everything they believe in be proved utterly, spectacularly wrong has caused a psychotic break of sorts results, producing Economic Schizophrenia.

Discuss....
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post #2 of 68
I think this forum needs more threads started about how liberals are psychotic, mentally ill, angry, foolish, schizophrenic, a cancer on American society, wankers, dolts, knobheads, pricks and bellends.

We need more of this kind of talk, because, clearly, the more we shout at each other and ratchet up the rhetoric, and the angrier we get, the more likely we are to find solutions.

It's clearly working very well, so the angrier we get and the more we learn to hate people who disagree with us, obviously the better it's going to work.
post #3 of 68
Assholes will by assholes despite their political agenda. We just happen to have a preponderance of them screaming about the second coming of Mao over three-fucking-percent. 3. Yes, three. Not 13. Not 30. 3.

Last I checked the president never called the tea baggers "un-american" like several of the assholes running for the GOP ticket called Occupy Wallstreet crowd (whom many are tea baggers). So basically what we have here is a party of assholes who want to say whatever the fuck they want and never repent for it only to become OUTRAGED with when Biden uses Mitch McConnell's own rhetoric against him.

HILARIOUS!

Here's the golden rule as taught to us by Karl Rove: "The game in politics is to take your greatest weakness/crime and project it fiercely onto your opponent." Therefore if a Republican is screaming "class warfare" then you can guarantee they've been waging some war on your ass!
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post #4 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I think this forum needs more threads started about how liberals are psychotic, mentally ill, angry, foolish, schizophrenic, a cancer on American society, wankers, dolts, knobheads, pricks and bellends.

We need more of this kind of talk, because, clearly, the more we shout at each other and ratchet up the rhetoric, and the angrier we get, the more likely we are to find solutions.

It's clearly working very well, so the angrier we get and the more we learn to hate people who disagree with us, obviously the better it's going to work.

If you don't like the thread, don't participate. In the meantime, you've done nothing to refute the term. And understand, I'm not literally calling liberals psychotic. Schizophrenia is obviously a rhetorical term here, but I think it holds weight.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Assholes will by assholes despite their political agenda. We just happen to have a preponderance of them screaming about the second coming of Mao over three-fucking-percent. 3. Yes, three. Not 13. Not 30. 3.

Yeah, because that's the only problem...a few percent on the "richest" Americans. It's not the trillions in wasted spending or EPA regulations or healthcare debacle.
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post #5 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

If you don't like the thread, don't participate. In the meantime, you've done nothing to refute the term. And understand, I'm not literally calling liberals psychotic. Schizophrenia is obviously a rhetorical term here, but I think it holds weight.

No, I'm not participating because it doesn't go far enough.

Clearly we need many, many threads on this forum that explain how liberals are stupid, incompetent, insane, 'psychotic' (but not really) and 'schizophrenic' (but not really), because that's really working out very well- but we're not shouting at each other enough.

May I suggest you start a thread titled 'Liberals are pencil-dicked mass-murdering aperapers who must be hung from tar-coated meathooks before they eat our babies'?

Then I will participate.

Edit:

Quote:
Schizophrenia is obviously a rhetorical term here, but I think it holds weight.

Ah, I see.

I think conservatives are all flint-hearted, compassionless sociopaths.

I'm speaking rhetorically, of course, with the use of 'sociopath', although I think it holds weight.
post #6 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by mumbo jumbo View Post


ah, i see.

I think conservatives are all flint-hearted, compassionless sociopaths.

I'm speaking rhetorically, of course, with the use of 'sociopath', although i think it holds weight.

ahahahahahaha!!!!
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post #7 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I think this forum needs more threads started about how liberals are psychotic, mentally ill, angry, foolish, schizophrenic, a cancer on American society, wankers, dolts, knobheads, pricks and bellends.

We need more of this kind of talk, because, clearly, the more we shout at each other and ratchet up the rhetoric, and the angrier we get, the more likely we are to find solutions.

It's clearly working very well, so the angrier we get and the more we learn to hate people who disagree with us, obviously the better it's going to work.

Just so we are all clear, if there's ever a name calling contest I'm pretty sure MJ will win it.

So what solutions did we get with a Democratic President and Congress MJ? How is wonderful Europe with all its wonderful programs doing with their currency, banking institutions and governments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Assholes will by assholes despite their political agenda. We just happen to have a preponderance of them screaming about the second coming of Mao over three-fucking-percent. 3. Yes, three. Not 13. Not 30. 3.

You know that you are right about the Bush Tax Cuts only being three percent. That's really great and fantastic of you to note that. Will you kindly explain then the Democratic Congress and President Barack Obama renewed the tax cuts when they were in a lame duck session of Congress? The default was do nothing.........NOTHING... and get the claimed result. They would have simply expired and gone back to the old rate. How do you explain away their deliberate ACTIONS to continue them.

I mean if one is an asshole for wanting a continuation of a three percent tax cut. Then what is the person who swears it is helping add to the debt, declares it is harming the future, starving grandma, bankrupting the nation, and helping cause a default who then turns around and votes for and signs that tax cut? What name do you have for them and their actions.

Quote:
Last I checked the president never called the tea baggers "un-american" like several of the assholes running for the GOP ticket called Occupy Wallstreet crowd (whom many are tea baggers). So basically what we have here is a party of assholes who want to say whatever the fuck they want and never repent for it only to become OUTRAGED with when Biden uses Mitch McConnell's own rhetoric against him. HILARIOUS!

Have you seriously read my sig? You're aware that the VP declared the Tea Party no different than terrorists. Are you claiming not labeling them un-American but instead as enemies of the state is a whole lot better or even different?

Quote:
Here's the golden rule as taught to us by Karl Rove: "The game in politics is to take your greatest weakness/crime and project it fiercely onto your opponent." Therefore if a Republican is screaming "class warfare" then you can guarantee they've been waging some war on your ass!

So by that reasoning the Democrats are a bunch of racist, sexist, terrorist, evil greedy psychopaths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

"Economic Schizophrenia" is the term that recently occurred to me as I watched what's been happening on Wall Street, Obama and Congressional Dems. Even some here seem to have symptoms of this disease.

The disease manifests itself as an inability to focus on and address issues. A question regarding job growth is answered by proclaiming that we have to address our debt problem and invest in infrastructure. A question on the deficit results in an answer that focuses on how we need to jump start the economy.

Even debates here tend to have the same script:

Liberal: We need to raise taxes on the rich!

Conservative: Why?

Liberal: We need the people that can afford it to help get us out of this mess!

Conservative: How will raising taxes help the economy?

Liberal: We need to address the deficit and invest in infrastructure, you idiot! Why do you hate the poor! We need to create jobs, not give tax breaks to the wealthy. Let the Bush tax cuts expire! Close loopholes!

Conservative: Closing loopholes and letting the Bush cuts expire provides only a fraction of the money needed to lower the deficit. And that's assuming it doesn't harm the economy.

Liberal: "--ism"

Through it all, we have a President who honestly believes in a "not undemocratic" European Socialism. As his policies fail and the economy falters, he becomes more angry and divisive in his rhetoric. Both he and the Left in general have seen their policies not only fail, but be overwhelmingly rejected by the mainstream American public. Watching everything they believe in be proved utterly, spectacularly wrong has caused a psychotic break of sorts results, producing Economic Schizophrenia.

Discuss....

Cut it a bit to try to keep it managable but the crazy thing here is that if you applied the reasoning anywhere else, it would be laughed off the face of the planet. Who would ever dare suggest that the way to help fat people get skinny is to force the skinny people to do more for the fat? Who would ever dare suggest that the way to get addicts to get healthy is to force their enablers to enable them even more. The reasoning is ridiculous.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #8 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

How is wonderful Europe with all its wonderful programs doing with their currency, banking institutions and governments?

Do you mean Sweden, Germany, Norway and Denmark?

Infinitely better than you.

Denmark is still the best place in the world to start a new business, Sweden is still the country growing fastest in Europe, Germany is still Europe's manufacturing giant and bailing out the failing European economies. All of these have world class infrastructure and AAA credit ratings.

All of these have a far higher base income tax rate and a far higher standard of living and far more stable economies than the United States of America. They have less poverty, less crime, happier populations and less inequality. America has a tax burden close to Chile. It has inequality closer to the bracket of Brazil and South Africa.

Snort less of your dogmatic Randian fairy dust.
post #9 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

dogmatic Randian fairy dust.

Brilliant.

 

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-Sagan
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post #10 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Do you mean Sweden, Germany, Norway and Denmark?

Infinitely better than you.

Denmark is still the best place in the world to start a new business, Sweden is still the country growing fastest in Europe, Germany is still Europe's manufacturing giant and bailing out the failing European economies. All of these have world class infrastructure and AAA credit ratings.

All of these have a far higher base income tax rate and a far higher standard of living and far more stable economies than the United States of America. They have less poverty, less crime, happier populations and less inequality. America has a tax burden close to Chile. It has inequality closer to the bracket of Brazil and South Africa.

Snort less of your dogmatic Randian fairy dust.

Australia also seems to be holding together at this stage, thank goodness. Of course the media here is portraying the sky is falling around the world but relative to other developed nations it is holding up. Currency was above the US dollar for most of the past year, and is creeping back up again. It has one of the world's highest yielding savings interest rates for commonly traded currencies, but not too high interest rates to make car loans and mortgages outlandish ~ ie. reserve bank rate is 4.75%. All deposits in banks are guaranteed until $1million AUD although this goes down to $250,000 AUD in Feb next year.

Basic healthcare is subsidised or free by the government and transport infrastructure seems to be holding together well enough. Unemployment benefits are provided but you have to prove and keep records that you are actively looking for work.

Keeping my fingers crossed here. Saw a doctor at a private clinic today, cost was $65 but I should get back $30+ from the government under basic healthcare coverage (called Medicare here)... Assuming there are no hiccups.
post #11 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Do you mean Sweden, Germany, Norway and Denmark?

Infinitely better than you.

Denmark is still the best place in the world to start a new business, Sweden is still the country growing fastest in Europe, Germany is still Europe's manufacturing giant and bailing out the failing European economies. All of these have world class infrastructure and AAA credit ratings.

All of these have a far higher base income tax rate and a far higher standard of living and far more stable economies than the United States of America. They have less poverty, less crime, happier populations and less inequality. America has a tax burden close to Chile. It has inequality closer to the bracket of Brazil and South Africa.

Snort less of your dogmatic Randian fairy dust.

That's a bit deceptive MJ. I didn't name individual countries. I said Europe. If you want to be more specific then even call it the EU. Your point fails badly. Should I declare the national debt of the United States doesn't matter because Wyoming has a fantastic oil industry (much like Denmark) and has 3% unemployment right now? You also seem to be citing almost every country that didn't adopt the Euro or that isn't in the EU. The only country you mentioned in the EU is Germany. If the model works so well, then take your blinders off and explain the PIIGS of Europe.

Finally we have bits like this...

Sweden's economy booms with cautious turn to the right

I'd go on again about the Saudi Arabia's of Europe pumping wealth out of the ground and spending it on their people but you always ignore such points. It's like a pair of blinders for you. A bunch of government programs funding by those filthy carbon fuels is just something you won't acknowledge.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #12 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

That's a bit deceptive MJ. I didn't name individual countries. I said Europe. If you want to be more specific then even call it the EU. Your point fails badly. Should I declare the national debt of the United States doesn't matter because Wyoming has a fantastic oil industry (much like Denmark) and has 3% unemployment right now? You also seem to be citing almost every country that didn't adopt the Euro or that isn't in the EU. The only country you mentioned in the EU is Germany. If the model works so well, then take your blinders off and explain the PIIGS of Europe.

Finally we have bits like this...

Sweden's economy booms with cautious turn to the right

I'd go on again about the Saudi Arabia's of Europe pumping wealth out of the ground and spending it on their people but you always ignore such points. It's like a pair of blinders for you. A bunch of government programs funding by those filthy carbon fuels is just something you won't acknowledge.

The problem is, and this is where your point really fails, that those countries that are having the most serious problems economically -- Greece, Spain, Italy -- are the LEAST Socialist of all the countries in Europe.
post #13 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

That's a bit deceptive MJ. I didn't name individual countries. I said Europe. If you want to be more specific then even call it the EU. Your point fails badly. Should I declare the national debt of the United States doesn't matter because Wyoming has a fantastic oil industry (much like Denmark) and has 3% unemployment right now? You also seem to be citing almost every country that didn't adopt the Euro or that isn't in the EU. The only country you mentioned in the EU is Germany. If the model works so well, then take your blinders off and explain the PIIGS of Europe.

You said Europe.

Denmark, Sweden, Germany and Norway are in Europe.

You want to move the goalposts? You may fuck off.
post #14 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

You said Europe.

Denmark, Sweden, Germany and Norway are in Europe.

You want to move the goalposts? You may fuck off.

They are indeed in Europe. So why do you get to ignore the rest the problem because of them. They didn't join the Euro. They aren't full members of the EU. How does their success largely due to pumping crude out of the ground and selling it explain away the PIIGS of Europe?

You can put your blinders back on now.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #15 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

They are indeed in Europe. So why do you get to ignore the rest the problem because of them. They didn't join the Euro. They aren't full members of the EU. How does their success largely due to pumping crude out of the ground and selling it explain away the PIIGS of Europe?

You can put your blinders back on now.

Pumping crude?

You do not have a fucking clue what you are talking about. Germany? Denmark? Sweden? Pumping crude?

You do not have a clue.

The PIGS? Including Greece, the nation with the lowest tax collection rates in Europe?

You do not have a fucking clue.
post #16 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

No, I'm not participating because it doesn't go far enough.

Clearly we need many, many threads on this forum that explain how liberals are stupid, incompetent, insane, 'psychotic' (but not really) and 'schizophrenic' (but not really), because that's really working out very well- but we're not shouting at each other enough.

May I suggest you start a thread titled 'Liberals are pencil-dicked mass-murdering aperapers who must be hung from tar-coated meathooks before they eat our babies'?

Then I will participate.

Edit:



Ah, I see.

I think conservatives are all flint-hearted, compassionless sociopaths.

I'm speaking rhetorically, of course, with the use of 'sociopath', although I think it holds weight.


I realize you think you're quite clever. The operative word is "think." I did not call members of the Left compassionless, or sociopaths, nor much of anything else. They simply have different views...views that have been proven to fail when put into practice. You know full well I didn't mean "schizophrenic" literally. In fact, you knew it before I clarified. Yet, you still still choose to act out like some kind of spoiled child.

Placing your outbursts aside for a moment, I will continue to elaborate on what I mean by "economic schizophrenia." The Wall Street protestors really exemplify this term, because they have no clear agenda. Some are anti-capitalist. Some are recent college grads with a sense of entitlement (see the opening post). Some speak in vague terms about "awakening the masses" and "bringing attention to abuses of Wall Street and the Big Banks." They have no concise message, nor do they really represent any particular group. You've got union thugs, rank-and-file Democrats, extreme Leftists, anti-Federal Reserve people, some public servants, etc. It's simply bizarre.

The President is doing his part to participate in and encourage this nonsense. Yesterday's press conference was another joke in the tale of the shrinking presidency. He claimed that the protests were part of a wider expression of frustration with our financial system. Pardon me, but that's a load of crap.
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post #17 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Pumping crude?

You do not have a fucking clue what you are talking about. Germany? Denmark? Sweden? Pumping crude?

You do not have a clue.

The PIGS? Including Greece, the nation with the lowest tax collection rates in Europe?

You do not have a fucking clue.

Another outburst. How about you explain how well the Euro is doing at present? It makes the dollar look like, well...Gold.
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post #18 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Pumping crude?

You do not have a fucking clue what you are talking about. Germany? Denmark? Sweden? Pumping crude?

You do not have a clue.

The PIGS? Including Greece, the nation with the lowest tax collection rates in Europe?

You do not have a fucking clue.

The reality as noted, was that three out of the four countries you mentioned do not use the Euro and are not full members of the EU.

Until you care to address that and also address how the PIIGS exist when your model says they should not, then you are not credible.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #19 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

The reality as noted, was that three out of the four countries you mentioned do not use the Euro and are not full members of the EU.

Until you care to address that and also address how the PIIGS exist when your model says they should not, then you are not credible.

He's too beside himself with anger to respond rationally. Any time someone makes a comment about the Left, he takes it to hear. He takes it personally. Makes one wonder...
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post #20 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Makes one wonder...

Go on...

 

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-Sagan
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post #21 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

So by that reasoning the Democrats are a bunch of racist, sexist, terrorist, evil greedy psychopaths.

Sorry. Didn't realize Karl Rove consulted for Democrats.
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post #22 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Sorry. Didn't realize Karl Rove consulted for Democrats.

You didn't say it was a Republican rule. You said it was the Golden Rule aka good politics.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #23 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

The reality as noted, was that three out of the four countries you mentioned do not use the Euro and are not full members of the EU.

Until you care to address that and also address how the PIIGS exist when your model says they should not, then you are not credible.

You have completely ignored my point that when you claimed that four of those economies were strong because they "pumped crude" you were lying, talking out of you arse, in order to "win", and you were wrong.

The fact that they don't use the Euro is irrelevant. They are in Europe. Don't move the goalposts, it is undignified, and desperate.

The PIGS?

They are the most neo-liberal economies in Europe. I'm sorry you can't understand this. Greece has the lowest tax collection rates.

The economies that are doing best are the most regulated and taxed. They are growing (well, Denmark just slipped into recession, but it's still doing better than the US.)

To simplify, the most regulated and most taxed nations are the nations in Europe that are doing best in this recession. They have the best standard of living in the world. In the case of Germany, they manufacture more than any other nation in Europe.

Stop snorting that dogmatic Randian fairy dust.
post #24 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

"Economic Schizophrenia" is the term that recently occurred to me as I watched what's been happening on Wall Street, Obama and Congressional Dems. Even some here seem to have symptoms of this disease.

The disease manifests itself as an inability to focus on and address issues. A question regarding job growth is answered by proclaiming that we have to address our debt problem and invest in infrastructure. A question on the deficit results in an answer that focuses on how we need to jump start the economy.

Even debates here tend to have the same script:

Liberal: We need to raise taxes on the rich!

Conservative: Why?

Liberal: We need the people that can afford it to help get us out of this mess!

Conservative: How will raising taxes help the economy?

Liberal: We need to address the deficit and invest in infrastructure, you idiot! Why do you hate the poor! We need to create jobs, not give tax breaks to the wealthy. Let the Bush tax cuts expire! Close loopholes!

Conservative: Closing loopholes and letting the Bush cuts expire provides only a fraction of the money needed to lower the deficit. And that's assuming it doesn't harm the economy.

Liberal: "--ism"
----------------------------------------------

The Wall Street protestors apparently have the same disease with slightly different symptoms. The "solutions" they are calling for are exactly what they are against...and pushed by one Barack Obama (bought and paid for by Wall Street), whom they apparently support. They have called for "freedom" and "opportunity," but also for the suspension of the Democratic process in many cases. They want jobs, but hate the companies that offer them. And this is to say nothing of the self-obsessed entitlement mentality they seem to possess. One interviewee stated that she "knew several people who recently graduated from prestigious schools that STILL didn't have full-time jobs." The horror!

Watch a brainwashed 9 year old talk about "reverse Robin Hood."

Watch the morons.


As for the administration and Congress, I think the real root of the disease is two-fold:

1) They don't understand the economy and what it needs to recover.

2) They are trying to do too many different things at once. Instead of focusing on job creation through economic growth, they are trying to "fix" everything in accordance with their liberal worldview, while at the same time running for re-election. This produces contradictory goals. They know enough to realize businesses need incentives and stability to create jobs, but also know their liberal voting base wants more "progressive" tax policy. They know consumer spending is key, but insist on taking more of what people earn.

Through it all, we have a President who honestly believes in a "not undemocratic" European Socialism. As his policies fail and the economy falters, he becomes more angry and divisive in his rhetoric. Both he and the Left in general have seen their policies not only fail, but be overwhelmingly rejected by the mainstream American public. Watching everything they believe in be proved utterly, spectacularly wrong has caused a psychotic break of sorts results, producing Economic Schizophrenia.

Discuss....

Are you saying that the people who are protesting on Wall Street are all hypocrites of what they demand.These big corporations are happy they are getting less tax increases and do not care about the working class stiff at all.
post #25 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

You have completely ignored my point that when you claimed that four of those economies were strong because they "pumped crude" you were lying, talking out of you arse, in order to "win", and you were wrong.

Where did I claim all four of them pump crude oil? Also since when did only four countries become Europe and why do you think talking about the few doing the best means you can ignore all the others that are bankrupt following the same model? When a few aren't you have to look at what is different and things like being off the Euro, pumping oil or being one of the most conservative countries within that model need to be noted. That has been noted but you put on your blinders and ignore it.

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The fact that they don't use the Euro is irrelevant. They are in Europe. Don't move the goalposts, it is undignified, and desperate.

It is relevant because of what you advocate and what the Euro represents. The Euro represents centralized planning to solve problems. It's the European UNION for goodness sakes. These successes for the most part said plainly, we'd rather not give up our autonomy. In the United States they would be the "states rights" crowd and the reality is you fail to see this point badly.
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The PIGS?

They are the most neo-liberal economies in Europe. I'm sorry you can't understand this. Greece has the lowest tax collection rates.

Wow do you love to step around the issue. Tax collection rates and tax rates are obviously not the same thing. The fact that they have been raised so high or made so complicated that no one will pay them or the economic activity has been driven underground is PRECISELY the point. Also since they follow the social welfare model, that tax collection or lack of desire to be precise and care about money is exactly the point again.

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The economies that are doing best are the most regulated and taxed. They are growing (well, Denmark just slipped into recession, but it's still doing better than the US.)

Please cite proof of this point. Germany runs a continual and hefty surplus as an example. That is why they are doing well. Others as I have noted sell all their oil to Europe. That is why they are doing well. Both of those have nothing to do with being regulated and taxed. Also on the flip side of this you are declaring there is a correlation between economic success, and regulation and taxation. How do you again, ignore the entire EU?
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To simplify, the most regulated and most taxed nations are the nations in Europe that are doing best in this recession. They have the best standard of living in the world. In the case of Germany, they manufacture more than any other nation in Europe.

Stop snorting that dogmatic Randian fairy dust.

Simple describes your rants perfectly. You pick outliers, declare them the rule and refuse to discuss why they are outliers. Your points about regulation and taxes are completely unsupported and made up where as trade surpluses and entire sectors of the economy built around pumping crude can indeed be looked up and are well supported points that you ignore repeatedly. Go look at maps of oil reserves and you'll notice something. In most of Europe there aren't any and the only place there are some are in the Nordic countries. Those countries have chosen to stay off the Euro and press their energy and currency advantage against their fellow Europeans. That's the true no matter how many times you care to ignore it.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #26 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Where did I claim all four of them pump crude oil? .

We are going to laugh at trumptmans evasiveness and hypocrisy here.

Of Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Germany, Nick wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Where did I claim all four of them pump crude oil?

Here.

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How does their success largely due to pumping crude out of the ground and selling it explain away the PIIGS of Europe?

Arguing with you is an absolute, total waste of time.

Youll write anything. You demand the right to tell others what they meant but you don't have the courage or the basic courtesy to stand by words youve written, even if its simply a question of using scrollbars to see them.

What an unpleasant experience it is exchanging words with someone as bleakly hollow as you.
post #27 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

We are going to laugh at trumptmans evasiveness and hypocrisy here.

Of Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Germany, Nick wrote:



Here.



Arguing with you is an absolute, total waste of time.

Youll write anything. You demand the right to tell others what they meant but you don't have the courage or the basic courtesy to stand by words youve written, even if its simply a question of using scrollbars to see them.

What an unpleasant experience it is exchanging words with someone as bleakly hollow as you.

Perhaps it was a typo but it is pretty clear I wasn't trying to speak about Germany because I'm also noting they aren't full EU members and don't use the Euro. Sorry if the language was a bit broad there.

If the experience is so unpleasant, then don't respond or better yet, don't get banned multiple times and then create entirely new accounts to continue to respond.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #28 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Here is a private message that SDW2001 sent to me some months ago.




Getting personal? Getting angry? Bullying people?

Perfectly fine when it's you.

You can do anything if you have right wing politics. Normal rules simply don't apply. Get personal, write violent things, try and bully people?

That's fine. You just need right wing politics.

Well, that's a rather damning personal message.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #29 of 68
PO is filled with so much hate and bile and hypocrisy lately. I see it on the left and the right. I have enough crap going on in my life right now that I don't need to invite this crap in as well. I realize I am not the moderator here, but the ones supposed to do the job appear to be afraid to or unwilling to. Personal attacks go unpunished, flaming threads go un checked and rhetoric and hatred run amok. It is like being in the wrong neighborhood after dark, the cops will be by in the morning to take a statement, survive till then.

If I were younger and more argumentative, as when I originally signed up for these boards, I might not care so much but I cannot read this forum without telling my children they have to go do something else for fear of what they may read over my shoulder.

The left leaners and right leaners are both doing it and since I Have no real authority here and since I have the problem with the material I guess I need to change myself. Too bad, I get a wide variety of news and views here. It showed me many different ways of looking at current events. But it also showed me that people left unchecked are generally gigantic jerks.

Rant over, back to your hate fest. \
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #30 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

PO is filled with so much hate and bile and hypocrisy lately. I see it on the left and the right. I have enough crap going on in my life right now that I don't need to invite this crap in as well. I realize I am not the moderator here, but the ones supposed to do the job appear to be afraid to or unwilling to. Personal attacks go unpunished, flaming threads go un checked and rhetoric and hatred run amok. It is like being in the wrong neighborhood after dark, the cops will be by in the morning to take a statement, survive till then.

If I were younger and more argumentative, as when I originally signed up for these boards, I might not care so much but I cannot read this forum without telling my children they have to go do something else for fear of what they may read over my shoulder.

The left leaners and right leaners are both doing it and since I Have no real authority here and since I have the problem with the material I guess I need to change myself. Too bad, I get a wide variety of news and views here. It showed me many different ways of looking at current events. But it also showed me that people left unchecked are generally gigantic jerks.

Rant over, back to your hate fest. \

I say better out than in. We are coming to a turning point, and things could get ugly.

I like Political Outsider in the sense that I can see the extreme views of both sides.

I try not to read too much Political Outsider and if it starts to get too much, I just don't read it for a while.

I agree it could be controlled better but at some point the best control would be to just shut down this section of the forums.
post #31 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

PO is filled with so much hate and bile and hypocrisy lately. I see it on the left and the right. I have enough crap going on in my life right now that I don't need to invite this crap in as well. I realize I am not the moderator here, but the ones supposed to do the job appear to be afraid to or unwilling to. Personal attacks go unpunished, flaming threads go un checked and rhetoric and hatred run amok. It is like being in the wrong neighborhood after dark, the cops will be by in the morning to take a statement, survive till then.

If I were younger and more argumentative, as when I originally signed up for these boards, I might not care so much but I cannot read this forum without telling my children they have to go do something else for fear of what they may read over my shoulder.

The left leaners and right leaners are both doing it and since I Have no real authority here and since I have the problem with the material I guess I need to change myself. Too bad, I get a wide variety of news and views here. It showed me many different ways of looking at current events. But it also showed me that people left unchecked are generally gigantic jerks.

Rant over, back to your hate fest. \

I'd expect it to get worse, much worse. You're watching an unaffordable and unsustainable worldview come to an end and the parties who wrought it and support it are going to do everything possible to avoid reality for as long as possible. They'll point a finger at every possible party and label them every name possible before admitting defeat. The social welfare model simply doesn't work and everyone is bankrupting themselves trying to make it work.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #32 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I'd expect it to get worse, much worse. You're watching an unaffordable and unsustainable worldview come to an end and the parties who wrought it and support it are going to do everything possible to avoid reality for as long as possible. They'll point a finger at every possible party and label them every name possible before admitting defeat. The social welfare model simply doesn't work and everyone is bankrupting themselves trying to make it work.

Except that the PIIGS in Europe are in general the least socialist countries with the lowest taxes in the region. Don't kid yourself, and don't lie to us. What we're seeing is actually that the low tax model is a failure, and the high tax model is what's working. If you just look at the facts, you would see that clear as day.
post #33 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Except that the PIIGS in Europe are in general the least socialist countries with the lowest taxes in the region. Don't kid yourself, and don't lie to us. What we're seeing is actually that the low tax model is a failure, and the high tax model is what's working. If you just look at the facts, you would see that clear as day.

You're claiming countries like Spain are the most conservative in Europe.

Please support this statement.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #34 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

You're claiming countries like Spain are the most conservative in Europe.

Please support this statement.

Spain hasn't had the worst of it yet. Greece has had the biggest problems, and it has among the lowest taxes in Europe. Care to explain that?
post #35 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Spain hasn't had the worst of it yet. Greece has had the biggest problems, and it has among the lowest taxes in Europe. Care to explain that?

It doesn't have the lowest taxes. It has one of the lowest tax COLLECTION rates. Tax EVASION is rampant.

The highest income tax in Greece is 40%.

The Social Security tax in Greece is 28% for employer and 16% for employee.

The corporate tax in Greece is 25% and has started being reduced towards 20%.

The VAT Tax for goods with no special designation is 23%.

Those are hardly trifling numbers.

Now care to explain how Spain is a conservative mecca again?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #36 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

It doesn't have the lowest taxes. It has one of the lowest tax COLLECTION rates. Tax EVASION is rampant.

The highest income tax in Greece is 40%.

The Social Security tax in Greece is 28% for employer and 16% for employee.

The corporate tax in Greece is 25% and has started being reduced towards 20%.

The VAT Tax for goods with no special designation is 23%.

Those are hardly trifling numbers.

Now care to explain how Spain is a conservative mecca again?

Highest income tax means nothing, when few are paying it. What is the effective tax rate again? And care to compare it against other European countries? Of course you don't. You're comparing it against the US, which is fucked economically.

Care to compare Greece to Holland? Germany?
post #37 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Highest income tax means nothing, when few are paying it. What is the effective tax rate again? And care to compare it against other European countries? Of course you don't. You're comparing it against the US, which is fucked economically.

Care to compare Greece to Holland? Germany?

Please feel free to compare it. Please feel free to post something beyond dismissals. I declared it to be evasion and noted the rates. It isn't hard to find articles corroborating the size of the shadow economy and when you look at the rates you can understand why. If you have a link that shows what you claim the merely post it and support your point.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #38 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Please feel free to compare it. Please feel free to post something beyond dismissals. I declared it to be evasion and noted the rates. It isn't hard to find articles corroborating the size of the shadow economy and when you look at the rates you can understand why. If you have a link that shows what you claim the merely post it and support your point.

I promise to get to the numbers when I get back home and can do the research on my MacBook Pro (yes, the iPad has its shortcomings).

Meanwhile, you're saying the problem with Greece is tax collection. How is that related to Socialism? Clearly the Government should step up enforcement.
post #39 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I promise to get to the numbers when I get back home and can do the research on my MacBook Pro (yes, the iPad has its shortcomings).

Meanwhile, you're saying the problem with Greece is tax collection. How is that related to Socialism? Clearly the Government should step up enforcement.

Complex and high tax systems drive people into the underground or shadow economy because of the cost differences. It isn't everyone of course but if someone wanted to sell you something and the price difference between if they had to give you a receipt versus not giving you one is 30-40% of the price then that is very substantial right?

It is related to socialism because of the percentage of GDP that Greece is spending which is at or right around 50% of their entire economy. The people screaming about tax evasion are upset because the government is only collecting 40 or so% which helps drive up the debt. Why doesn't it just collect more from the rich? Simply put, there aren't enough of them nor enough revenue at higher rates.

The problem is very similar here in the U.S. where last I read, the Federal government was spending 40% of GDP per year but only collecting 25%. To get an extra 15% of revenue from only 1% or so of people is impossible because they don't have enough income. They might have assets or wealth but not income.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #40 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Complex and high tax systems drive people into the underground or shadow economy because of the cost differences.

Ah, so the key is simplifying the tax system and closing loopholes. Which is the very thing Obama is trying to do with the Buffett rule.

And your response to the question about how it's related to Socialism is ridiculous. Overspending is overspending. Overspending can be corrected in many other ways than simply cutting social programs.

You can't just simplify economics into a single factor. That's just plain dumb. There are high tax systems that are working far better than the US system, which provide better social programs. I have yet to see a low tax system that works without significant additional state controlled revenue (e.g. land sales or state owned oil).

The Right: Economic tunnel vision.
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