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United States of Europe. Good Or Bad?

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 
As a pragmatist left wing voter, I can see benefits, but I'm strongly against more European integration when it leads to a USE.

Your thoughts.



...and I genuinely care what you think (within limits though Apple][)

EDIT-

Just to add that imho Europe is now set in stone. There will be a USE and it'll be a massive power stretching into the ME and including Russia.

Quite absurd...I know.

Good Times ( thanks floorjack!)
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post #2 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

As a pragmatist left wing voter, I can see benefits, but I'm strongly against more European integration when it leads to a USE.

Your thoughts.



...and I genuinely care what you think (within limits though Apple][)

Oppose. More centralization=usually bad. If the Euro doesn't prove that, I don't know what does.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #3 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Oppose. More centralization=usually bad. If the Euro doesn't prove that, I don't know what does.

Good point, though one could well argue the complete opposite.

Sdw- we have a common cause
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post #4 of 14
Thread Starter 
Come on po, post your thoughts.

Just post what goes through you on a gut level when you think about all those countries handing over power to a centralized authority. Please post your thoughts.

Thanks sdw, I really appreciate your post. Honest and true, lack of honesty isn't something I'd ever hold against you.
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post #5 of 14
If it would be a union similar to how the USA is now, I am opposed to it. Too much power has been consolidated and concentrated at the federal level and it's destroying us from within like a malignant cancer.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #6 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

If it would be a union similar to how the USA is now, I am opposed to it. Too much power has been consolidated and concentrated at the federal level and it's destroying us from within like a malignant cancer.

Again, that could be argued both ways, but there are nonetheless obvious similarities.

Are you against the USA?

Europe is much bigger than the US, both economically, culturally and physically. Europe also is doing this just to gain power, not against a tyrannt, ie royal corp, but instead purely to impose itself on the world.

There's much more to this, but I appreciate you giving your thoughts jazz.

Just as a tidbit, Europe will form groups, Scandic + Scottish etc that will tear apart common sense in favour of power. It's grim really. And almost utterly futile, except for those who wish to see only big business and big power reign over individual rights, including capitalist property rights and including political rights.
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post #7 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

As a pragmatist left wing voter, I can see benefits, but I'm strongly against more European integration when it leads to a USE.

Your thoughts.



...and I genuinely care what you think (within limits though Apple][)

EDIT-

Just to add that imho Europe is now set in stone. There will be a USE and it'll be a massive power stretching into the ME and including Russia.

Quite absurd...I know.

Good Times ( thanks floorjack!)

The concept of the EU is good. But academics note flaws that undermine it such as the ECB banking system, and that places like Ireland were exploited and then dumped... among other issues.

I don't think the EU is set in stone as such. The PIIGS are threatening the very concept.
post #8 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

If it would be a union similar to how the USA is now, I am opposed to it. Too much power has been consolidated and concentrated at the federal level and it's destroying us from within like a malignant cancer.

Nope. It's the selfish Randian attitude that is the malignant cancer in these United States. And religion.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #9 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Nope. It's the selfish Randian attitude that is the malignant cancer in these United States. And religion.




The US has unquestionably become more socialist-progressive in the past 50 years. There is unquestionably more dependance on government than at any time in our history. We are also much less religious than we were 50 years ago. Shouldn't things be better if you're correct?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #10 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post




The US has unquestionably become more socialist-progressive in the past 50 years. There is unquestionably more dependance on government than at any time in our history. We are also much less religious than we were 50 years ago. Shouldn't things be better if you're correct?

Things are waaaayyy fucking better than they were 50 years ago. That's undeniable.

But they are no where near as good as they could be without the selfish asshole factor.
post #11 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Are you against the USA?

I'm not against the idea of the USA as set forth in our founding documents. I'm opposed to what it has become and is becoming, which is very different from - and in many cases in direct opposition to - the principles set forth in those documents.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #12 of 14
Thread Starter 
Think that Morocco could never join the EU because it's in Africa?

Think again-

"In 2006 EU commissioner for external relations, Benita Ferrero-Waldner declared that "we [EU] already have a very, very close relationship with Morocco, and we're studying giving them even more advanced status."

Advanced status-

Morocco is the first country in the region to be granted advanced status, which makes it a pioneer in the European Neighbourhood Policy. The agreement constitutes a "roadmap" which widens the sphere of EU-Morocco bilateral relations by setting out new objectives in three main areas: closer political relations, with the holding of an EU-Morocco summit and the establishment of consultation mechanisms at ministerial level; integration of the single market on the basis of gradual adoption of the Community acquis and sectoral cooperation; and a focus on the human dimension."
~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco...nion_relations
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post #13 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I'm not against the idea of the USA as set forth in our founding documents. I'm opposed to what it has become and is becoming, which is very different from - and in many cases in direct opposition to - the principles set forth in those documents.

It has, and Europe's doing the same kinds of things-

"While the large private banks were betting on the casinos of the financial markets, lending to businesses and the "real" economy was left to the public Sparkassen, which were more efficient in serving average citizens and local business because they were not stock companies that had to satisfy shareholders' hunger for ever-larger dividends. Today, the market share of private banks in Germany is only 28.4 percent, and Deutsche Bank AG dominates the segment. But with its 7 percent market share, it is still well behind the public banks owned by municipalities and communities.

The Landesbanks function as "universal banks" operating in all sectors of the financial services market. All are controlled by state governments and operate as central administrators for the municipally owned savings banks, or Sparkassen, in their area.

The Sparkassen were instituted in Germany in the late 18th century as nonprofit organizations to aid the poor. The intent was to help people with low incomes save small sums of money, and to support business start-ups. The first savings bank was set up by academics and philanthropically minded merchants in Hamburg in 1778, and the first savings bank with a local government guarantor was founded in Goettingen in 1801. The municipal savings banks were so effective and popular that they spread rapidly, increasing from 630 in 1850 to 2,834 in 1903. Today the savings banks operate a network of over 15,600 branches and offices and employ over 250,000 people, and they have a strong record of investing wisely in local businesses.

The EU doesn't like the landesbanken. They denounce the explicit and implicit public subsidies that state ownership entails, saying they violate the rules of competition policy. For over a decade they have fought to have the system privatized. In the end, the dispute is simply ideological: if you think that public ownership should only be an exception, narrowly crafted to address specific market failures, you want to see the landesbanken put on the auction block. If you think an economy should be organized to meet socially defined needs, you would want a large part of capital allocation to be responsive to public input, and you'd fight to keep the landesbanken the way they are. (There is a movement afoot in the US to promote public banking.)

The International Monetary Fund, too, had long demanded that any competing public monopolies in the German banking market be broken up, citing their "inefficiencies." When the German public Sparkassen and Landesbanken were reluctant to turn to investment banking with its skyrocketing profits, they were branded as bureaucratic and "unsexy." When they were pressured to increase their returns for their government owners, the German Landesbanken did get sucked to some extent into derivatives and collateralized debt obligations (fraudulently rated triple A). But while they "lost billions in the Goldman Sachs, Deutsche Bank and Lehman Brothers Ponzi scheme," Niemeyer says the extent to which they became involved in highly speculative transactions was "laughable in comparison with the damage done by private banks, for whom taxpayers are now providing guarantees."

Private German banks accumulated an estimated €600 billion in toxic assets through their investment banking branches, for which German taxpayers wound up providing guarantees. Deutsche Bank AG was feeding its record profits almost exclusively through its investment banking division, which made a fortune trading credit default swaps on Greek state obligations. When this investment turned sour, the German government had to bail out the financial institution into which Deutsche Bank AG dumped these toxic assets.

In 1947, German industrial output was only one-third its 1938 level, and a large percentage of its working-age men were dead. Less than ten years after the war, people were already talking about the German economic miracle; and 20 years later, its economy was the envy of most of the world. By 2003, a country half the size of Texas had become the world's leading exporter, producing high quality automobiles, machinery, electrical equipment and chemicals. Only in 2009 was Germany surpassed in exports by China, which has a population of over 1.3 billion to Germany's 82 million. In 2010, while much of the world was still reeling from the 2008 financial collapse, Germany reported 3.6 percent economic growth."
~ http://www.truth-out.org/public-opti...del/1318444344
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #14 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post




The US has unquestionably become more socialist-progressive in the past 50 years. There is unquestionably more dependance on government than at any time in our history. We are also much less religious than we were 50 years ago. Shouldn't things be better if you're correct?

Things are getting worse and the economy is sinking rapidly.To much government control now. religion is a mind game look at the idiots running in the Republican Party now.
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