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Biographer tells of Steve Jobs's regrets from delaying cancer treatment - Page 2

post #41 of 72
10/20/11 at 3:32pm
Bull is right. I doubt you are somebody who has experience with cancer. In reality there generally is no one clearly right path somebody provides you. You have experts who have different opinions. Sometimes there is no one established answer. Instead you are given a variety of treatment options along with an outline of established risks and quality of life prognostications. You ultimately are left deciding what risks you are willing to accept. If Jobs was told his chance of full recovery was extremely low and the cost of treatment in terms of its effect on him was extremely high, his choice might have been the correct one.

It is impossible to make judgements about Jobs without understanding what the experts had to say (which nobody will ever know because his medical records will be sealed forever) and how they said it. Even if Jobs regrets his choices, he was doing so in hindsight. It doesn't mean the choices he made were incorrect.



Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

Bull. Not when you have kids, loved ones, a corporation and millions of fans out there. It probably was his arrogant self serving self assurance - which was an instrumental part of his driving force and which made him great - that also prevented him from taking sensible advice and instead only listen to himself. Stupidly. Sadly. Not to pass judgement but to call his survival 'the desire of others' is ridiculous.
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post #42 of 72
10/20/11 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedalmatian View Post

At least he wasnt in the UK and so didnt have to put up with our lousy NHS (No Help Service) with thier arrogant rude and intimidating doctors, (just what you need whe youre ill & scared) dirty hospitals and second hand surgical instruments from cheap manufacturers in India with blood on them.

Yeah, good thing Prof. Stephen Hawkings wasn't British. The NHS would have killed him by now.
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post #43 of 72
10/20/11 at 3:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Regardless, he's no longer here so it is pointless to second guess. What is done is done.

But there are others out there that might find themselves in the same situation, either now or in the future, that could learn from what Steve Jobs did and how it turned out.

-kpluck
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post #44 of 72
10/20/11 at 3:36pm
See you at the mother ship Steve.
An Apple man since 1977
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An Apple man since 1977
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post #45 of 72
10/20/11 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Unlike most americans, at least he had health insurance.

As of 2010, only about 16% of Americans lacked health insurance. You might want to try harder at not being misinformed.

-kpluck
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post #46 of 72
10/20/11 at 3:42pm
SJ was one of the greatest minds of his generation. But, like everyone else, he was prone to make poor choices on other aspects of life not centric to what made him great. Taking the best choices sometimes requires you to trust someone else. It is sad he was not able to trust the people around him. Getting past that must have been tough for him but it goes to show his strength of character.

He found peace long before death caught up with him.
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post #47 of 72
10/20/11 at 3:54pm
I guess I'm not surprised. Steve always thought different, and not necessarily right when it came to his own health. According to one early biography of him released back in the 1980s, he once thought carrots were the perfect food, so he ate nothing but carrots for a while, enough to turn his skin orange from all the beta-carotene.
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post #48 of 72
10/20/11 at 3:55pm
I'm not a fan of alternative medicines...they fall under irrational superstition to me. But being a rational adult Mr. Jobs had every right to whatever medicine he deemed necessary.

I wish he had heeded the warnings and went the surgical route but what's done is done.

The surgery may not have helped anyways as my grandfather died from the same affliction even after surgery.
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post #49 of 72
10/20/11 at 4:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

This is a ridiculous statement. Cancer is no joke. Further, deciding on a care treatment plan is also no joke. You will get different opinions from different highly qualified experts. You also have to weigh the options in relation to the risk involved and quality of life after treatment. Generally the treatments will only add a couple of extra years of life. Is that worth it if the risk of death is high from the treatment and the quality of life afterwards low? Maybe not.

Moreover, Jobs was a very holistic person who embraced alternative forms of medicine that for something less serious may have been a plausible form of treatment. On top of all that you typically have to make decisions relatively quickly all while processing life shattering news.

It is quite easy to judge something from an outside perspective after the fact. Making these decisions, however, is an entirely different matter. From all I read Jobs was lucky to get the years he did, and even if he could have received more years, the odds of it being very many more was low.

I'm not judging, I'm talking from experience and I've been there. If you think my statement is ridiculous then you didn't read it correctly. My point is when one is diagnosed with a terminal disease, one should seek the BEST form of what is CURRENTLY ACCEPTED AS PROVEN treatment for the given disease as soon as possible. Even if it buys you an extra decade, year, month, day or hour of life, seeking help and proper treatment immediately gives one the best chance of being on this great Earth for precious moments longer.

Why does Apple bashing and trolling make people feel so good?

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Why does Apple bashing and trolling make people feel so good?

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post #50 of 72
10/20/11 at 4:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kpluck View Post

But there are others out there that might find themselves in the same situation, either now or in the future, that could learn from what Steve Jobs did and how it turned out. ...

I hate how everyone is assuming here that because he didn't go for crippling chemotherapy and invasive surgery that he somehow made a "bad choice." He made a choice is all.

We all die, and every single person that has cancer is going to die no matter what therapies they choose. "Chemotherapy" is just a word for "We will fill your veins with anti-freeze and almost kill you." It's a crude, "guesswork" kind of therapy that rarely works for very long and sometimes kills you.

If I had a tumour I wouldn't go for chemo. I might go for surgery, but that would be my choice, just like it was Steve's. There are no "right" and "wrong" choices here. There's just what you think, and what the doctor suggests. Doctors are not gods (even though most act like they are), and not one of them understands enough about cancer to do anything but make general suggestions based on statistics.
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post #51 of 72
10/20/11 at 4:42pm
I have done end of life care for over 30 years. After all I have seen, this is my conclusion:

If one learns one has a cancer tumor, get it cut out immediately, plus surrounding tissue.
GET RID OF IT FAST.

Also pray, meditate, visualize, and use whatever 'alternative' methods you feel akin to.

Listen to Drs, get several opinions, do own research, pick the best treatments possible from both "traditional" and "alternative" medicine and be sure there are no contraindications between anything you do.
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post #52 of 72
10/20/11 at 4:52pm
By the way, for those of you who were bitching/whining about the www.apple.com SJ memorial- you can relax, it's now gone. Happy?
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post #53 of 72
10/20/11 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

By the way, for those of you who were bitching/whining about the www.apple.com SJ memorial- you can relax, it's now gone. Happy?

http://www.apple.com/stevejobs/

PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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post #54 of 72
10/20/11 at 4:58pm
Not having surgery MAY have shorten his life here on earth

He didn't want it until he woke up? Thought of his life, wife and kids?

We can go on and on about this, but as we all know, it DOESN'T matter. All that matters is today and the decisions he made yesterday.

If he could be brought back to life and informed of his decisions and the outcome should he choose to not do what OTHERS felt was the best course of action for him, would he do it different you can bet the farm on it folks.

We all have beliefs, but those change when we are forced to see the out come from our decisions.

There is no doubt in MY mind, that given the change to do it all over again, and be around to see his kids grow up, his baby (Apple) become the BIGGEST company, with the most impact on the lives of everyone around him (Hell it's been doing this for awhile now).

PLEASE do not take this the wrong way, but to be Bigger then God himself, would he do it differently, I say he would, but he isn't coming back to get those changes, so he and the rest of us, have to live with the choices he and we all make.

He got us here, now it's up to us, to get us to the next level!

My life as an adult, is what it is solely because of Apple.

- My business
- My mind set
- Me, so thank you Mr. Jobs and all the folks at Apple.

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post #55 of 72
10/20/11 at 5:40pm
The surgery for this cancer (Whipple Procedure) is EXTREMELY invasive. It removes the gallbladder, duodenum, head of the pancreas, reroutes the bile ducts and connects the stomach directly to the small intestines.

Recovery is horrid, your digestion is forever problematic, you'll have to take enzymes and hormones for the rest of your (likely short) life, your body is severely weakened and there is an enormous risk of infection due to what is actually cut up and rerouted (the most septic environment in your body - where food is being digested).

My dad was a candidate for this surgery and died a HORRIBLE death due to complications. If I get diagnosed with this cancer, I'll pass on this surgery too and give in to my fate.

Also, this surgery doesn't address the root cause for this cancer and recurrence is likely - so after being totally butchered up, chances are you'll die of multiple organ failure due to metastatic cancers everywhere.
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post #56 of 72
10/20/11 at 6:59pm
I read after his death that his wife is the head of a "natural products" company and that he declined surgery in favor of a special diet. This sounds like naturopathy quackery to me
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post #57 of 72
10/20/11 at 7:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdcat View Post

I read after his death that his wife is the head of a "natural products" company and that he declined surgery in favor of a special diet. This sounds like naturopathy quackery to me

it is...not as bad as parents refusing to allow their children treatment in favor of prayer, but close.
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post #58 of 72
10/20/11 at 7:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

So far, no medical treatment has proven to cure Cancer.

WRONG WRONG WRONG yes shouting.

Many cancers are cureable with medical treatment. Metastatic testicular cancer has cure rates of over 80%, that's cancer in the lungs and all over the body.

If anyone is reading this don't believe the untruth. Hope your record for apple related posts have a tad more veracity.

Sorry about the caps a PSA (public service announcement was called for, not prostate specific antigen).
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post #59 of 72
10/20/11 at 7:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwissMac2 View Post

Pancreatic cancer is one of the most lethal forms there is, with a five year survival rate of less than 10%. Its likely therefore that no matter what Jobs did he would not live for decades. Going seven years is pretty good going if you ask me - that's 2 years longer than 90% of people who suffer from Cancer of the Pancreas.

Of course he regretted not doing all he could as early as possible, but that's only natural and probably wouldn't have made much difference to the outcome.

5 year survival, exocrine = 0%
5 year survival, endocrine = 30%
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post #60 of 72
10/21/11 at 12:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

It's not about second guessing by other people. The article states that Jobs himself regretted putting off the surgery.

The Tribute page should be there for a year. This isn't, oh never mind. You know what I mean.
He changed the world. Apple, the Beatles and Apple. Changing the world more than ever.
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post #61 of 72
10/21/11 at 5:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedalmatian View Post

As someone with OCD about contamination from other people and thus is repulsed by blood transfusions and organ transplants I totally sympathise with Jobs.

At least he wasnt in the UK and so didnt have to put up with our lousy NHS (No Help Service) with thier arrogant rude and intimidating doctors, (just what you need whe youre ill & scared) dirty hospitals and second hand surgical instruments from cheap manufacturers in India with blood on them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13894880


What a bizarre and nonsensical post. The NHS isn't perfect, but it's far superior to the US model. Watch Michael Moore's Sicko for some pretty shocking stories of the fate of those who lack medical insurance in America.
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post #62 of 72
10/21/11 at 7:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjitMD View Post

He is an adult, mentally competent, and was entitled to make the decision, however foolish it may have been.

Indeed, he was entitled to make a decision which he regretted and very probably led to him living a shorter life. It was his destiny.

DaHarder just got banned. Let's crack open the champagne.

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DaHarder just got banned. Let's crack open the champagne.

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post #63 of 72
10/21/11 at 7:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Cancer survival rates are greatly improving.

He said that because his Lord Steve died from Cancer so it must be true. Once again, mdriftmeyer. Once again.

DaHarder just got banned. Let's crack open the champagne.

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DaHarder just got banned. Let's crack open the champagne.

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post #64 of 72
10/21/11 at 7:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kpluck View Post

As of 2010, only about 16% of Americans lacked health insurance. You might want to try harder at not being misinformed.

-kpluck

Oh, only ten times the country I live in (16% of USA is 50 million, in Norway we are about 4.9 million). That's hardly anyone.
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post #65 of 72
10/21/11 at 10:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

In 2004, Steve was busy negotiating Pixar's film distribution deal with Michael Eisner. He sold the company to Disney shortly thereafter for $7,400,000,000.00.

Those two extra zeros make it seem like a whole lot more money than it actually was. And it already was a enormous amount. You can almost buy Greece with that much money.
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post #66 of 72
10/21/11 at 10:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsa View Post

Those two extra zeros make it seem like a whole lot more money than it actually was.

Yes, those zero cents makes it look like a lot more money
PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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post #67 of 72
10/21/11 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter View Post

Such a smart man with so much going for him and still he thought in a stupid (and selfish) manner. One might argue that it is not selfish thinking but it is. One needs to think about how their life touches everyone else in their life when making a decision about how to go about treating a terminal illness.

Having said that, I know and understand his reasoning, and have felt the same way at one time, but never again. I was lucky.

And yet the odds of survival aren't that much better had he sought the treatment any earlier.

Cancer sucks and it's a tricky beast. At best you've got a 50/50 chance of survival. Alternative medicine isn't a witchdoctor evil either and in some cases have found their way into traditional medicine so don't knock his decisions rightly or wrongly.

The book also goes on to say that Jobs invested heavily in cancer research when he decided to go for the surgery so this is a man who likes to consider all options not just go with the ones that people tell he needs to go with. He hasn't done it with Apple why should he do it with his own health? In fact by looking at all options he shows that he is looking out for his family. Chemotherapy would have sapped him with no real better odds of success.

My only question now is will this book be available in the New Zealand iBooks store because I would really like to read it without having to go to Kindle or by the physical book.
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post #68 of 72
10/21/11 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

True, which makes me dang curious what happened to THIS.

Must not have been the cure-all they were hoping for...

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #69 of 72
10/22/11 at 1:05am
I have known other geniuses who also had superstitious notions about health.

I think/suspect that part of what makes them productive is a benevolent universe presmise: the idea that if you do your best and work hard, you will succeed. So they can not accept/conceptualize that the human body would be such that things can just go wrong with it, through no fault of their own, that then need human intervention to fix. It just does not jive with their version of reality. "It must be so, in this universe, that if I just leave it, it will go away."
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post #70 of 72
10/22/11 at 1:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

I have known other geniuses who also had superstitious notions about health.

I think/suspect that part of what makes them productive is a benevolent universe presmise: the idea that if you do your best and work hard, you will succeed. So they can not accept/conceptualize that the human body would be such that things can just go wrong with it, through no fault of their own, that then need human intervention to fix. It just does not jive with their version of reality. "It must be so, in this universe, that if I just leave it, it will go away."

It is also extremely frustrating to want something and have the capabilities of doing it, and then be hampered by the state of your body. Sometimes you have to decide to first do what you want and deal with the consequesces later. Maybe that is what Steve did. I even suspect him to have postponed dying until after the iPhone 4S/Siri keynote.
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post #71 of 72
10/22/11 at 2:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsa View Post

I even suspect him to have postponed dying until after the iPhone 4S/Siri keynote.

Willpower is incredibly powerful but not that powerful. He would have been in agonising pain for some time at that point, and not in control of exactly when it happened.
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post #72 of 72
10/22/11 at 4:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Willpower is incredibly powerful but not that powerful. He would have been in agonising pain for some time at that point, and not in control of exactly when it happened.

You are probably right because he died one day after the keynote. I have seen people do it, however. One grandfather told me on the day his last grandchild was baptized that he was ready to die now that he had seen his grandchildren baptized. He died a week or so after that. And he is certainly not the only example.
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