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Apple awarded patent for touchscreen slide-to-unlock gesture - Page 3

post #81 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronJ View Post

Because a patent is supposed to represent something physical that someone came up with on his own. It's not supposed to represent an implementation of stuff we all use on a regular basis.

So patents should only be granted for mechanical functions? Should I be able to patent my better mousetrap? Or just let everybody else copy my design? Without protection, nobody will bother trying to create anything new. Why spend your resources if all your competitors will be able to use/copy anything you create?
post #82 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) The point of posting in a forum to get your point across, which means you have to defend your point if it's weak. You've tried to defend it by skirting the issue which means you aren't sure that Neonode had any patents, prior art or anything else before Apple or other companies.

I have gotten my point across to anyone who is receptive to it. I am not going to waste my time on the diehards. I'm not in court, but it's a safe bet that those who were in the Dutch court must have presented ample evidence.

Quote:

2) You've also failed to read the patent text supplied by Shrike:

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...0&postcount=18 Just look at number one to see the technology in the iPhone is nothing like that of Neonode's primitive design.

I read the text. The biggest difference is the additional visual cue (image). I find that an obvious addition. Your qualification of the design as "primitive" is unnecessary -- the slide-to-unlock gesture is clearly there.

Quote:

3) FingerWorks, created in 1998, bought by Apple in 2005, and still filing patents as late as 2008. You think it's possible FingerWorks might predate Neonode's 2001 formation? Especially considering FingerWork's focus was on multi-touch interfaces not trying to make a phone that looks like a glucose meter.

It is quite possible that FingerWorks had a similar idea, but the patent filing was a year too late for the idea to be patentable.

Finally, you know as well as I do that apart from the legal side, or from what one poster can prove to the rest, there is the moral issue. Apple has no moral rights to use this patent to stifle competition, when clearly others implemented the idea before them. Are you willing to accept this, or do you want to look no better than the mindless trolls around here?
post #83 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post


Another note though I have questions for the board:

Do you guys feel that with the speed of technological advancement, software patents should be given for shorter periods of time?

Perhaps a second period of time in which you must produce a product that actually uses the functionality described in the patent. So you could patent your new algorithm, but if you don't build a product within a couple of years, you lose the rights to that patent. That might stop some of the patent trolls.
post #84 of 192
I cant blame Apple for attempting to patent anything and everything that they could conceivably utilize at some point, its what the situation has come to unfortunately. This isn't Apple's fault specifically, but a major problem with patent law.

Patents are important, but they shouldn't be granted for anything under the sun, thats not what the purpose of laws that encompass patents (and trademarks and copyrights) were designed for. IMO, this is highly unethical, but again I cant blame Apple for working within a broken system.

The main thing to consider is that many software patents are simply adaptations of preexisting physical implementations or specific utilizations of more generalized processes. Thats not really within the true spirit of the purpose of patents.
post #85 of 192
To be fair, you can see why Apple is patent trolling (from a buisness standpoint). They're surviving. Theyr'e trying to keep as many grapes on the vine as possible. You do NOT want to just stand there and take it from the behind AND get your girl stolen.

Apple could let people freely take the patents.....only to be run out of the very same industry they created.
post #86 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post

Perhaps a second period of time in which you must produce a product that actually uses the functionality described in the patent. So you could patent your new algorithm, but if you don't build a product within a couple of years, you lose the rights to that patent. That might stop some of the patent trolls.

There is no easy fix. For example you should be able to invent something, patent it and license it to multiple manufacturers and never produce a product at all, which is essentially what patent trolls do. The main difference is that it should be a real invention and not just a bunch of vague words on a piece of paper that is nothing more than a new way to describe something that is already in the public domain.

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post #87 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by linkgx1 View Post

You just made things more complicated.

Games and even movies have millions of lines of code. So........? If Apple games and made mario, they'd copyright jumping.

On a serious note, though, I think that might hold true. I think that's when you run into issues fo emulators and roms. Which, in irony, 'illegally' copying old games (ESPECIALLY LIMITED) is what keeps then thriving. I have more stuff....but no time. lol!

But I mean...why can't they be patented?

"A method in which a person manipulates an on screen sprite and/or polygonal structure to move either horizontally or vertically in response to a digital environment by pressing a corresponding button indicating direction on a gamepad and/or touchscreen."
post #88 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post

But I mean...why can't they be patented?

"A method in which a person manipulates an on screen sprite and/or polygonal structure to move either horizontally or vertically in response to a digital environment by pressing a corresponding button indicating direction on a gamepad and/or touchscreen."

http://kotaku.com/5412438/miyamoto-w...patent-jumping

Quote:
Iwata: Donkey Kong involved jumping, as did Mario Bros., so you felt that Nintendo were the real originators of this kind of game.

Miyamoto: I did. I went as far as thinking that jumping is an original idea and that it should be patented! Anyway, I thought: "Right, I'm not going to let those other games top us!" (laughs)
post #89 of 192


lol.

why couldn't he?
post #90 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

Apple has no moral rights to use this patent to stifle competition, when clearly others implemented the idea before them.

You have yet to prove Apple or FingerWorks or anyone else thought of, patented, and executed this idea after Neonode. It's all just wishful thinking on your part with no evidence except for a video from the day the iPhone was released, which is silly to back it up. You need proof if you are going to make such a claim. I've made no claim that Apple or Fingerworks did beat Neonode, only that the wording in the patent is distinct to how Neonode's device works and could possibly predate Neonode by years based on circumstantial evidence you haven't begun to refute in any rational or meaningful way.
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post #91 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You have yet to prove Apple or FingerWorks or anyone else thought of, patented, and executed this idea after Neonode. It's all just wishful thinking on your part with no evidence except for a video from the day the iPhone was released, which is silly to back it up...

... based on circumstantial evidence you haven't begun to refute in any rational or meaningful way.

There you go:

http://www.pencomputing.com/WinCE/ne...n1-review.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

Are you willing to accept this, or do you want to look no better than the mindless trolls around here?

You've clearly made your pick.
post #92 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post

Perhaps a second period of time in which you must produce a product that actually uses the functionality described in the patent. So you could patent your new algorithm, but if you don't build a product within a couple of years, you lose the rights to that patent. That might stop some of the patent trolls.

As every other time this idea has come up, it's a stupid idea.

All that this would do is ensure that a small inventor would never be able to profit from his invention. There are countless cases where someone invented something novel and valuable, but was not in a position to commercialize it. They were, however, able to sell their technology to a major player.

What if someone invents something new for integrated circuit manufacture? By your standard, they should be forced to spend a couple billion dollars on building an IC facility and entering the market before they could benefit. That would be absurd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by linkgx1 View Post

To be fair, you can see why Apple is patent trolling (from a buisness standpoint). They're surviving. Theyr'e trying to keep as many grapes on the vine as possible. You do NOT want to just stand there and take it from the behind AND get your girl stolen.

Apple could let people freely take the patents.....only to be run out of the very same industry they created.

Apple is not trolling. They don't even come close to the definition of a patent troll.
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post #93 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

As every other time this idea has come up, it's a stupid idea.

All that this would do is ensure that a small inventor would never be able to profit from his invention. There are countless cases where someone invented something novel and valuable, but was not in a position to commercialize it. They were, however, able to sell their technology to a major player.

What if someone invents something new for integrated circuit manufacture? By your standard, they should be forced to spend a couple billion dollars on building an IC facility and entering the market before they could benefit. That would be absurd.



Apple is not trolling. They don't even come close to the definition of a patent troll.

Then who IS a patent troll? By that definiton, if you hold a patent....you a trolling.


I also think it's stupid to have to keep making stuff to have patent. Not everyone has the R&D for that?
post #94 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post

But I mean...why can't they be patented?

"A method in which a person manipulates an on screen sprite and/or polygonal structure to move either horizontally or vertically in response to a digital environment by pressing a corresponding button indicating direction on a gamepad and/or touchscreen."

Oh.....
post #95 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbop View Post

It's BS generic patients like this that kill competition and in long run increase prices. Patients have outlived their usefulness. Maybe Samsung should patient launching email by touching a button.

Maybe I should patent a system that blocks users that post inane trolling statements, or statements that are so sup par and not well thought out that they might as well be trolling statements.
post #96 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamIIGS View Post

Maybe I should patent a system that blocks users that post inane trolling statements, or statements that are so sup par and not well thought out that they might as well be trolling statements.

You mentioned it, but I patented before you. PAY ME NOW!
post #97 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoodlesNoodlemann View Post

Geez, lighten up. It's just funny.

I got a chuckle out of it too, but then again I'm not an unemployed patent attorney riddling forums with thousands of posts.
post #98 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

There you go:

http://www.pencomputing.com/WinCE/ne...n1-review.html

Just to be clear you're saying that:
Now the touchscreen on this device isn't capacitive like the iPhone. It's not pressure like WinMo device. It's an array of [infrared] diodes up and down and left and right.

"The first two gestures to learn are right to left for Yes, at the bottom and the next gesture to learn is left to right for No.

"There are 3 menus that sweep from bottom to the top starting at each of these [hardware] icons."

Is the same as:
A method of unlocking a hand-held electronic device, the device including a touch-sensitive display, the method comprising: detecting a contact with the touch-sensitive display at a first predefined location corresponding to an unlock image; continuously moving the unlock image on the touch-sensitive display in accordance with movement of the contact while continuous contact with the touch screen is maintained, wherein the unlock image is a graphical, interactive user-interface object with which a user interacts in order to unlock the device; and unlocking the hand-held electronic device if the moving the unlock image on the touch-sensitive display results in movement of the unlock image from the first predefined location to a predefined unlock region on the touch-sensitive display. It's fraking amazing you think those are the same things. So the Neonode has no touch-senstitive display, it has no unlock image that moves along the display as the user moves his finger along the touch sensitive display.

Again, you've also failed to prove that FingerWorks didn't have a patent in place before Neonode.

PS: There is a reason Apple bought FingerWorks, not Neonode back in 2005.
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post #99 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by linkgx1 View Post

And the patent wars continues. Samsung's gonna be ready if Apple decides to enter the TV market.

On the contrary, once Apple redesign the entire TV paradigm, just as they did with the phone and patent it up to the eyeballs we will see Apple suing Samsung et al who 'suddenly have the same ideas' after all these years of the existing paradigm.
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post #100 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Just to be clear you're saying that:
Now the touchscreen on this device isn't capacitive like the iPhone. It's not pressure like WinMo device. It's an array of [infrared] diodes up and down and left and right.

"The first two gestures to learn are right to left for Yes, at the bottom and the next gesture to learn is left to right for No.

"There are 3 menus that sweep from bottom to the top starting at each of these [hardware] icons."

Is the same as:
A method of unlocking a hand-held electronic device, the device including a touch-sensitive display, the method comprising: detecting a contact with the touch-sensitive display at a first predefined location corresponding to an unlock image; continuously moving the unlock image on the touch-sensitive display in accordance with movement of the contact while continuous contact with the touch screen is maintained, wherein the unlock image is a graphical, interactive user-interface object with which a user interacts in order to unlock the device; and unlocking the hand-held electronic device if the moving the unlock image on the touch-sensitive display results in movement of the unlock image from the first predefined location to a predefined unlock region on the touch-sensitive display. It's fucking amazing you think those are the same things. So the Neonode has no touch-senstitive display, it has no unlock image that moves along the display as the user moves his finger along the touch sensitive display.

Again, you've also failed to prove that FingerWorks didn't have a patent in place before Neonode.

PS: There is a reason Apple bought FingerWorks, not Neonode back in 2005.

Whoa, dude, language. You might want to tone it down a bit. I just got an infraction for using language mahself.
post #101 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

Apple has no moral rights to use this patent to stifle competition, when clearly others implemented the idea before them. Are you willing to accept this, or do you want to look no better than the mindless trolls around here?

Apple has every moral right to ask that companies not copy its innovations but instead develop their own. Insisting on innovation does not stifle competition. People are sadly misinformed when they suggest that the patent system was intended to protect or promote COMPETITION. In actuality, its purpose is to promote INNOVATION, which is what tends to happen when copying is prohibited. If competitors can't innovate, perhaps they deserve to be stifled; strangling might be a bit too severe.

Furthermore, it's interesting to note that the so-called previous implementation is not a slide-to-unlock method but rather, a move-finger-to-indicate-your-selection system. Since contact on the screen is not required in the "previous implementation," there really is no conceptual linkage with the action of sliding a locking mechanism out of place. Technically speaking, not only is there no requirement for touching an image, but an actual physical sliding of the finger on a surface is also not required. The so-called prior example uses a system-wide method of choosing options that involves moving the finger in a horizontal or vertical direction, and it just so happens that one of the choices available is to indicate whether you want the screen locked or not. In my opinion, this is conceptually quite different from what Apple has introduced with Slide to Unlock.
post #102 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

On the contrary, once Apple redesign the entire TV paradigm, just as they did with the phone and patent it up to the eyeballs we will see Apple suing Samsung et al who 'suddenly have the same ideas' after all these years of the existing paradigm.

They need to have something big then. I don't think Siri is that (Um.....isn't the Xbox 360 voice controlled?). They just MIGHT have something huge. Might.
post #103 of 192

deleted


Edited by MacRulez - 5/4/12 at 12:31pm
post #104 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

People who post this image (and there seems to be a lot unless it's always you), simply don't understand anything at all about invention, design, patents or much of anything else.

The existence of cart wheels from the 18th century for instance, has no bearing on whether Ford should get a patent on their newest belted radial tires for example, and even less relevance to whether someone can write a computer game using wagon wheels as design elements. This is 100% irrelevant.

It's still pretty funny
post #105 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by linkgx1 View Post

Whoa, dude, language. You might want to tone it down a bit. I just got an infraction for using language mahself.

No need to worry about Solip, he is the maven of the boards. Just look at his post count, Kasper and AppleInsider are about to award him a Rolex.

He is the most fair and objective poster on the boards and supports ALL of his claims with hard evidence. If I was him and someone implied I was behaving like a troll, I'd passionately fire back like he did, also. He is dead to rights, IMO.

Why does Apple bashing and trolling make people feel so good?

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post #106 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Just to be clear you're saying that:
Now the touchscreen on this device isn't capacitive like the iPhone. It's not pressure like WinMo device. It's an array of [infrared] diodes up and down and left and right.

"The first two gestures to learn are right to left for Yes, at the bottom and the next gesture to learn is left to right for No.

"There are 3 menus that sweep from bottom to the top starting at each of these [hardware] icons."

Is the same as:
A method of unlocking a hand-held electronic device, the device including a touch-sensitive display, the method comprising: detecting a contact with the touch-sensitive display at a first predefined location corresponding to an unlock image; continuously moving the unlock image on the touch-sensitive display in accordance with movement of the contact while continuous contact with the touch screen is maintained, wherein the unlock image is a graphical, interactive user-interface object with which a user interacts in order to unlock the device; and unlocking the hand-held electronic device if the moving the unlock image on the touch-sensitive display results in movement of the unlock image from the first predefined location to a predefined unlock region on the touch-sensitive display.
It's fraking amazing you think those are the same things. So the Neonode has no touch-senstitive display, it has no unlock image that moves along the display as the user moves his finger along the touch sensitive display.

No I never said those were the same, don't put words in my mouth. I only expressed the opinion that the slide-to-unlock gesture was implemented by Neonode two years before Apple filed for their related patent and before Apple implemented the same idea in the original iPhone.

The Neonode does have a touch-sensitive display, although it's based on a different touch technology. The words that you have bolded in Apple's patent describe a touch-sensitive display, which the Neonode's display also is, they don't specify the technology (capacitive is your own addition).

Quote:
Again, you've also failed to prove that FingerWorks didn't have a patent in place before Neonode.

I cannot prove that a patent doesn't exist. If you believe that it does, prove it (by linking to the patent/application). This info is public. There is no list of non-existing patent applications.

Quote:
PS: There is a reason Apple bought FingerWorks, not Neonode back in 2005.

I am sure there is, but neither I nor you know what this reason is. Has it occurred to you that Apple may not be infallible?
post #107 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciwiz View Post


Excellent point, I'll bet that one was patented too.
post #108 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabe View Post

Apple has every moral right to ask that companies not copy its innovations but instead develop their own. Insisting on innovation does not stifle competition. People are sadly misinformed when they suggest that the patent system was intended to protect or promote COMPETITION. In actuality, its purpose is to promote INNOVATION, which is what tends to happen when copying is prohibited. If competitors can't innovate, perhaps they deserve to be stifled; strangling might be a bit too severe.

THIS patent was given to Apple but it ISN'T Apple's innovation. Unless you believe that adding an animation to a gesture you stole from others is true innovation. Which you probably do. So... good luck with "strangling" anyone with this lame patent. I'm happy with my lock pattern, and don't need a picture to guide me when swiping to unlock.
post #109 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

I cannot prove that a patent doesn't exist. If you believe that it does, prove it (by linking to the patent/application). This info is public. There is no list of non-existing patent applications.

You're claiming Apple stole this innovation so it's therefore up to you to defend that point. You've repeatedly failed to do so. You keep trying to move the argument and play this "woes me" card like you're being attacked and asked to supply info that doesn't exist, but all I've asked of it proof that what you claim is true. You could have avoided getting beat down here if you merely worded it to say that you think or you suspect that Apple might not have been the originator of the tech as stated in the patent, but you didn't do that. You made wild claims so you should be ready to defend them.
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post #110 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamIIGS View Post

Maybe I should patent a system that blocks users that post inane trolling statements, or statements that are so sup par and not well thought out that they might as well be trolling statements.

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post #111 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

image: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/constructive.png

That's great!
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post #112 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

THIS patent was given to Apple but it ISN'T Apple's innovation. Unless you believe that adding an animation to a gesture you stole from others is true innovation. Which you probably do. So... good luck with "strangling" anyone with this lame patent. I'm happy with my lock pattern, and don't need a picture to guide me when swiping to unlock.

If you look carefully at what was done before, which involved infrared to detect movement (NOT sliding, since screen contact was not required), you'll appreciate the movement was not a sliding gesture at all, much less representative of moving a component of a locking mechanism.

Surely the finger moved from left to right or from bottom to top or vice versa, but these movements were obviously not designed as metaphors. They were set up simply as ways to indicate "yes" or "no" to whatever functional choices were specified. Hence claiming after the fact that it was really "slide to unlock" doesn't cut it. It was a simple yes or no signal without any linkage to the concept of manipulating a lock.
post #113 of 192
Apple doesn't need to directly attack google regarding its patents. All apple has to do is create enough litigative hell that manufacturers get scared off. Hello windows mobile 7 phones! I hope bill appreciates the irony
post #114 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

It is not impossible that Apple, oblivious of technological developments in one of the most advanced countries in the world, came up with the idea on their own. This only goes to illustrate how flawed the patent system is. However, I strongly doubt this was the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

It is quite possible that FingerWorks had a similar idea, but the patent filing was a year too late for the idea to be patentable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You're claiming Apple stole this innovation so it's therefore up to you to defend that point. You've repeatedly failed to do so. You keep trying to move the argument and play this "woes me" card like you're being attacked and asked to supply info that doesn't exist, but all I've asked of it proof that what you claim is true. You could have avoided getting beat down here if you merely worded it to say that you think or you suspect that Apple might not have been the originator of the tech as stated in the patent, but you didn't do that.

I did say that Apple may have independently come up with the idea (twice, quoted above). That does say something about your selective reading of my arguments.

I also provided links (Google yourself for dozens more) describing and showing the implementation of slide-to-unlock on a touch screen, and pre-dating the iPhone by more than two years.

The "wild claim" that you suggest I made was that the idea is unpatentable and Apple's patent should be revoked. A Dutch judge had apparently a similar "wild idea".

I also reply to all of your increasingly irrational posts simply because of the previous good impressions that I've had from your reasoning and objectivity. Sadly, those impressions are rapidly fading.
post #115 of 192
Appleinsider.....one big 'ol flame bait.
post #116 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciwiz View Post


That's APPLE. They bring CULTURE to it's products.
post #117 of 192
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post #118 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by linkgx1 View Post

Then who IS a patent troll? By that definiton, if you hold a patent....you a trolling.


I also think it's stupid to have to keep making stuff to have patent. Not everyone has the R&D for that?

No, you're a troll if you SIT on a patent, waiting for others to invest effort in bringing the idea to market only to demand a toll like a troll sitting under a bridge.

Obviously, not everyone can bring a patent to market immediately, but they shouldn't be allowed to sit on it and impede progress for two decades. They can sell the patent to a bigger company, of course. Now if that company never attempts to bring a product to market, then they are trolls...
post #119 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

Works had a similar idea, but the patent filing was a year too late for the idea to be patentable.

Finally, you know as well as I do that apart from the legal side, or from what one poster can prove to the rest, there is the moral issue. Apple has no moral rights to use this patent to stifle competition, when clearly others implemented the idea before them. Are you willing to accept this, or do you want to look no better than the mindless trolls around here?

I watched the video. It's clear a "Swipe for Yes" crude implementation, not specifically a gesture meant to unlock the device. In the video, the person turned it on and accessed a menu without have to swipe left-to-right.

iOS uses Swipe-to-Unlock specifically to prevent the notorious accidental "pocket use" by requiring a physical button to be pressed and then a specific touch gesture before you can use the device.

Not the same concept or implementation as "swipe for yes". I don't think the phone in the video even has a "locked" state short of turning its display off.

If anything, it's similar only to how you answer a phone call on an iPhone while the device is locked, which is actually a double action where the device is unlocked and the call is answered; when the device is unlocked, you only press a button to answer, not swipe.
post #120 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

The irony deepens, since Windows Mobile is also an alleged infringer and will have no choice but to throw their full weight into invalidating this patent:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/w...k-patent/15789

Meanwhile, in another story AI hasn't run, it looks like Apple will be busy defending themselves against allegations of fraud:
http://www.streetinsider.com/Insider...F/6884599.html

That second article was run on AI over a month ago, if memory serves. Old news.

The first is likely moot, as Apple and MS seem to have pretty extensive cross-licensing deals, as they are rarely at odds over IP in recent years.
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