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Apple slips to No. 5 global handset maker, No. 2 in smartphones after iPhone transition quarter - Page 2

post #41 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

So some android phones are more expensive. The real question is the middle to lower end. Whats the cheapest off contract iPhone ( the 3GS) and whats the cheapest off contract Android device?

£319 for a 3GS 8GB sim free.
The android phones vary wildly, but the lowest I've found is £200 (Samsung Galaxy Ace). HTCs start at £300 and go up from there.

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post #42 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post

£319 for a 3GS 8GB sim free.
The android phones vary wildly, but the lowest I've found is £200 (Samsung Galaxy Ace). HTCs start at £300 and go up from there.

£319 is right. If Apple continue the 3GS next year if the Ip5 comes out selling at ( say) £250 they could take back a lot of market.
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post #43 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

If you were deciding among an XBox, A Wii or a Playstation, would you check the profit? How does that count?

Bad examples, gaming consoles are sold at either a loss or very low margin, the money is made on the games. The reason why that business model works is because you absolutely have to buy games for the console to be of any use.
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post #44 of 106
From http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...d_quarter.html

Quote:
Samsung has stopped breaking out unit sales in its earnings reports, but estimates from research group Strategy Analytics late Friday pegged the company's quarterly mobile phone shipments at 88 million for the third quarter. Of those devices, 27.8 million were presumed to be smartphones.

I would say that the 27.8mil smartphones is just a guess by an analyst as Samsung doesn't give any "real" numbers anymore.
post #45 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

Samsung's profit for its mobile phone division went from $1.05 billion USD in Q3 '10 to $2.3 billion USD in Q3 '11. I'd say that's a pretty massive jump for them.

http://www.samsung.com/us/aboutsamsu...erence_eng.pdf


Samsung 3Q profit slides 23 percent

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...f021406D34.DTL
post #46 of 106
From being told by every pundit and analyst not to enter the mobile handset market because they would destroy the company to being #2 smartphone maker in the world is a success in any book. But somehow, by the tone of these posts, Apple has failed? Really?
post #47 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

ZTE are Chinese. Eventually everything will be Chinese.

IF ZTE starts copying Apple in China and selling the ripoffs to that large market, what success do you think Apple will have for patent protect in the Chinese courts?
post #48 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

Samsung's profit for its mobile phone division went from $1.05 billion USD in Q3 '10 to $2.3 billion USD in Q3 '11. I'd say that's a pretty massive jump for them.

http://www.samsung.com/us/aboutsamsu...erence_eng.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sector7G View Post

Samsung 3Q profit slides 23 percent

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...f021406D34.DTL

The topic at hand is mobile phones.
post #49 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

I don't get the kind of Apple fans who want them to make profits over market share, and eulogise the iPhones margin's and Apple's profits. Apple should continue with high end ( even higher end) devices, and also go for the low medium end devices. It needs to increase market share, which is what Tim Cook himself points out.

Because it's a brilliant strategy. Every market contains good (high-margin) and bad (low-margin) parts. Apple monopolises the good parts and ignores the bad parts (it's this, and not screwing their customers, that gives them their high margins), this pushes the competitors into the bad parts. This is unsustainable, since margins become razor thin if you only have the extremely price-conscious, product-apathetic section of the market. Innovation stops and the market becomes ripe for disruption. Apple wins by ceding bad markets to its competitors.

Low-margins are not good for customers. Imagine you're a Nokia user right now and have invested a huge amount of your time and effort in Symbian. Well, now you're feeling the effect of being part of Nokia's low-margin, unsustainable ecosystem. Enjoy.
post #50 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Bad examples, gaming consoles are sold at either a loss or very low margin, the money is made on the games. The reason why that business model works is because you absolutely have to buy games for the console to be of any use.


OK, but the point is the same. Does anybody check the profitability of an item prior to purchase? My point was that consumers don't use manufacturer profitability as a factor in making purchases, maybe except for exceptional situations.
post #51 of 106
For those who wonder why Samsung is fighting Apple tooth and nail in court or why Apple seems to be targeting Samsung more than anyone else, the answer should be clear. Apple went after HTC first when the Taiwan company was the first successful Android maker. The moment that Galaxy had a hint of success, the sights on Apple's legal guns switched to South Korea.

The stakes are very, very high.
post #52 of 106
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post #53 of 106
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post #54 of 106
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post #55 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

For those who wonder why Samsung is fighting Apple tooth and nail in court or why Apple seems to be targeting Samsung more than anyone else, the answer should be clear. Apple went after HTC first when the Taiwan company was the first successful Android maker. The moment that Galaxy had a hint of success, the sights on Apple's legal guns switched to South Korea.

The stakes are very, very high.

So what will happen if Apple legal team go against someone with a BETTER legal team than them, and lose? Will Apple need a new plan instead of suing successful rivals out of the market?

A street racers' proverb was 'No matter how much you got in your car, there are someone out there with more'.
post #56 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

Asus is already in the Android business, just not with phones:

Asus EeePad Transformer currently Amazons best-selling tablet
http://www.eurodroid.com/2011/06/22/...elling-tablet/

Asus Transformer Tablet: Surprising Second Best in Sales After Apple iPad
http://www.pcworld.com/article/23592...pple_ipad.html

Yep, what a shame their joint venture with Garmin is now dead and buried. Same goes for Sony Erickson.

Say, Sony bought shares from Erickson and all Xperia handsets will be labeled Sony from 2012. Should Asus phone go it alone as well?
post #57 of 106
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post #58 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

OK, but the point is the same. Does anybody check the profitability of an item prior to purchase? My point was that consumers don't use manufacturer profitability as a factor in making purchases, maybe except for exceptional situations.

I don't think people here argue that they buy Apple products because Apple is profitable. Usually profitability is brought up when somebody argues that Apple is "losing." Profitability is a sign of sustainability and longevity. Being the most profitable vendor means that Apple isn't going anywhere. It means it has leverage. Having the most marketshare does not mean the same thing. A company can have the most marketshare and be failing. I think it's disingenuous to suggest that people here think that Apple's profitability is part of a purchasing consideration or to imply that that's the only thing people should be concerned about.

That said, having high-margins does not mean, as you imply, that Apple is screwing people. Some markets are high-margin, some are low-margin. In low-margin markets an item is priced close to its component costs whereas in high-margin markets the value is perceived to be in something else. Quite clearly, people don't buy iPhones because they want a touchscreen, a CPU, a battery and a camera, plus assembly. They're buying the latest OS version and the promise of regular updates. They're buying access to a well-stocked, curated app market. They're buying into a set of services. They're buying exceptional support. They're buying into a media ecosystem. They're buying into an incredible track record of innovation, much of which has been delivered to existing users free of cost. And, yes, they're buying into a brand and everything that comes with that. The value of those things has little to do with the cost of hardware components or the cost of the components plus the cost of running the services.
post #59 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

The thing is - that argument is made by Apple fans ( but only when market share is in decline) but not by Apple, who never mention gross margin outside of financial conference calls where they have to. When Tim Cook gets up on stage he shows graphs of Apple's market share, he doesn't sugar the pill. He shows Apple at a mere 5% of all mobile shipments, and says he wants to go higher as all phones will be smart some day. That means going cheaper.

This doesn't sully Apple's brand because they still have the high end stuff ( similar to iPods).

It doesn't necessarily mean going cheaper. It can also mean convincing the remaining 95% that Apple has something worth spending more for. I think the point of showing iPhone as a percentage of the phone market, rather than the smartphone market, is that they're going after non-consumption. They can convince people with non-smart phones of the value proposition of owning an iPhone rather than compete with Android and other smartphones.
post #60 of 106
Go Samsung. Things are gonna get good.
post #61 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fairthrope View Post

So what will happen if Apple legal team go against someone with a BETTER legal team than them, and lose? Will Apple need a new plan instead of suing successful rivals out of the market?

A street racers' proverb was 'No matter how much you got in your car, there are someone out there with more'.

Like I implied, interesting times ahead. Never in history have we seen such a high stakes legal battle between a manufacturer and its largest customer, particularly when the supply relationship intersects with the market in conflict.
post #62 of 106
Nothing like a little competition to keep Apple on its toes.

As I've said before, though, at some point Apple will match all of Samsung's "selling" points, Samsung will slowly run out of steam, its smartphone growth will slow and Apple will just keep rolling forward.

It's the ecosystem, stupid...

BTW... let's revisit this thread at the end of January...

as always... jmho
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post #63 of 106
Apple's lawsuits are gonna drive them into the ground. Start innovating and stop suing (they've been playing catchup lately). The Galaxy line is proving to be a fierce competitior.

We all seen the reaction of how people were dissapointed with the 4S (great phone, BTW). I'm not counting sales as factor (for now) because it oh so happened right within the timeline of Mr. Job's death and all the publicity Apple has been getting.

Next year will definately be a true test for Apple's viablity. Hopefully the 6th gen iPhone will prove to be great.
post #64 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Nothing like a little competition to keep Apple on its toes.

As I've said before, though, at some point Apple will match all of Samsung's "selling" points, Samsung will slowly run out of steam, its smartphone growth will slow and Apple will just keep rolling forward.

It's the ecosystem, stupid...

BTW... let's revisit this thread at the end of January...

as always... jmho

I think you mean the reverse. Not everyone cares about an 'ecosystem'. Apple doesn't have infinite black (AKA SUPER AMOLED) on the iPhone. Samsung phones had notifacations BEFORE Apple.....


I think it's unfair to say 'catching up' as Apple does things their own way...
post #65 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by linkgx1 View Post

I think you mean the reverse. Not everyone cares about an 'ecosystem'. Apple doesn't have infinite black (AKA SUPER AMOLED) on the iPhone. Samsung phones had notifacations BEFORE Apple.....


I think it's unfair to say 'catching up' as Apple does things their own way...

I have nothing but time... we'll revisit this thread in another 3 months and then you'll be making up some other silly ass arguments as to why Samsung is 6 million or more smartphone sales "behind" Apple.
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post #66 of 106
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post #67 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by neosum View Post

Well, it doesn't matter what their profit margin is. We as consumers are paying the same base prices for iphones as people do for android phones. As far as I'm concerned I paid $199. With or without the iphone, I would still have a cell phone bill. Unlike other nitpickers, I calculate the monthly bill as part of my cost of service rather than cost of phone.

Use any smartphone and the wireless bill remains the same, in contract or out. I was out of contract since Jan 2011 and had recently signed a contract for the 4s. Needless to say, my bill didn't miraculously go up after signing the contract nor did it go down when my contract expired in Jan..

The whole "apple products cost more" myth is just that, a myth.

Then you need some help selecting a phone plan. We have two unlocked iPhones in the family and certainly don't pay anything close to the egregious rates ATT charges for subsidized or wholly owned phones. Like less than half with more minutes and gb's. Yes, I have 2G download speeds. And from Florida up to Washington DC where I spend a lot of time, 2G is just as fast as the crap 3G signal I can get on our iPad 3G (ATT), when I can get a signal.
post #68 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

I think it's more likely that both will continue to do well. I see no harm in having more than one viable company in the world.

I actually didn't think my post implied anything other than that. Slowing sales does not meant that I want Samsung dead... see the very first sentence in my comment.

Quote:
There's an interesting point, but in ways that may not be obvious to folks who don't develop for both:

Half of Americans are employed in small businesses, and many of the businesses could benefit from custom mobile apps.

But have you looked into Apple's requirements for deploying apps within your business? Even the strongest Apple fans describe them politely as onerous, and more candidly using words unfit for posting on this forum. Suffice to say that deploying outside of the Apple AppStore is very, very difficult.

Meanwhile, to deploy an Android app among your employees' phones or tablets is as simple as turning off the third-part lock and copying the .apk file to the device. No permissions needed from the mother ship, no complicated provisioning protocol, no need to send bank statements, D&B records, and other reams of paperwork to some company to ask permission.

The productivity differences for deploying custom apps for each platform are so significant that I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes a major obstacle for Apple in 2012, requiring them to introduce an option for more streamlined deployment of custom apps. The current system is at the edge of cost-prohibitive for many businesses.

... and I agree. I've read a couple of reports stating that development for Android is preferred over developing for iOS for the very reasons that you state. Apple has to find a way to give up some of the control but still keep its tightly integrated system... not an easy task but maybe a road that Cook will revisit now that he has the reins.
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post #69 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

I have nothing but time... we'll revisit this thread in another 3 months and then you'll be making up some other silly ass arguments as to why Samsung is 6 million or more smartphone sales "behind" Apple.

But that's NOT now. THat's nto the argument. RIGHT NOW, Apple slipped to No.5. Stop making blanketed, fanboyish statements. Markets change all the time, so it's a moot point to say that because that's not proving anything. If Apple was THAT viable, they'd stay numero uno all year....regardless if a new one was coming out or not. The Galaxy SII very much helped th void for some people who needed a phone update in March.

You obviously don't know how a buisiness operates. I can say the same thing, it's nothing but time before Apple's iPhone is no longer viable and possibly no longer a compnay. Let's revist this thread in 20+ years.
post #70 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

I think it's more likely that both will continue to do well. I see no harm in having more than one viable company in the world.


There's an interesting point, but in ways that may not be obvious to folks who don't develop for both:

Half of Americans are employed in small businesses, and many of the businesses could benefit from custom mobile apps.

But have you looked into Apple's requirements for deploying apps within your business? Even the strongest Apple fans describe them politely as onerous, and more candidly using words unfit for posting on this forum. Suffice to say that deploying outside of the Apple AppStore is very, very difficult.

Meanwhile, to deploy an Android app among your employees' phones or tablets is as simple as turning off the third-part lock and copying the .apk file to the device. No permissions needed from the mother ship, no complicated provisioning protocol, no need to send bank statements, D&B records, and other reams of paperwork to some company to ask permission.

The productivity differences for deploying custom apps for each platform are so significant that I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes a major obstacle for Apple in 2012, requiring them to introduce an option for more streamlined deployment of custom apps. The current system is at the edge of cost-prohibitive for many businesses.

All of this is very true.
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post #71 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by linkgx1 View Post

But that's NOT now. THat's nto the argument. RIGHT NOW, Apple slipped to No.5. Stop making blanketed, fanboyish statements. Markets change all the time, so it's a moot point to say that because that's not proving anything. If Apple was THAT viable, they'd stay numero uno all year....regardless if a new one was coming out or not. The Galaxy SII very much helped th void for some people who needed a phone update in March.

You obviously don't know how a buisiness operates. I can say the same thing, it's nothing but time before Apple's iPhone is no longer viable and possibly no longer a compnay. Let's revist this thread in 20+ years.

What's your point?

... and, btw, that is how business operates... they don't look at one quarter's growth... they look far into the future. You seem to be stuck on this rah rah our team is winning... ha ha thing. I'm saying, let's have a look at how both companies operate. One is tightly integrated and controls both hardware and software... the other controls hardware but has little or no control over software. How far into the future can Samsung look as compared to Apple?
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post #72 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by linkgx1 View Post

Apple's lawsuits are gonna drive them into the ground. Start innovating and stop suing (they've been playing catchup lately). The Galaxy line is proving to be a fierce competitior.

We all seen the reaction of how people were dissapointed with the 4S (great phone, BTW). I'm not counting sales as factor (for now) because it oh so happened right within the timeline of Mr. Job's death and all the publicity Apple has been getting.

Next year will definately be a true test for Apple's viablity. Hopefully the 6th gen iPhone will prove to be great.

Apple is playing catch-up? Android, as an OS, appears to be dead in the water at this point. ICS, with its absurdly spartan feature list, came a year after the last update on phones (2.3), which itself was a minor update. They've basically disowned 3.x, saying it was rushed, and they're no longer going to have a tablet version of the OS. If Apple had done the same thing, we'd be hearing about how Apple, a company with revenue and profits that dwarf Google's, is doomed. But because it's Google, and nobody is eagerly anticipating Google's demise, it's hardly being acknowledged. It's obvious Google made a huge misstep. Meanwhile, Apple has been spoiling its users with new features.
post #73 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by poke View Post

Apple is playing catch-up? Android, as an OS, appears to be dead in the water at this point. ICS, with its absurdly spartan feature list, came a year after the last update on phones (2.3), which itself was a minor update. They've basically disowned 3.x, saying it was rushed, and they're no longer going to have a tablet version of the OS. If Apple had done the same thing, we'd be hearing about how Apple, a company with revenue and profits that dwarf Google's, is doomed. But because it's Google, and nobody is eagerly anticipating Google's demise, it's hardly being acknowledged. It's obvious Google made a huge misstep. Meanwhile, Apple has been spoiling its users with new features.

How is it dead in the water when Android phones overall are outpacing iPhones?


I think it depends on the company. If you switched OSes for the companies, fanboys now suddenly thing the other feature is cool. It'd be 'revolutionary' if Apple had face unlock. Hell, look at the way Android fanboys reacted when Siri was announced....saying it was stupid.....the very same feature they were praising Android for.
post #74 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by linkgx1 View Post

How is it dead in the water when Android phones overall are outpacing iPhones?

You have to remember that Android == OS on Multiple Phones, where iPhone == 1 Product line.
The reason for the outpacing is the plethora of handsets to choose from, and people will choose the best one that matches their shoes. No single Android phone has outsold a single iPhone. That has to account for a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by linkgx1 View Post

I think it depends on the company. If you switched OSes for the companies, fanboys now suddenly thing the other feature is cool. It'd be 'revolutionary' if Apple had face unlock. Hell, look at the way Android fanboys reacted when Siri was announced....saying it was stupid.....the very same feature they were praising Android for.

Fanboys are fickle things, aren't they?

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post #75 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

What's your point?

... and, btw, that is how business operates... they don't look at one quarter's growth... they look far into the future. You seem to be stuck on this rah rah our team is winning... ha ha thing. I'm saying, let's have a look at how both companies operate. One is tightly integrated and controls both hardware and software... the other controls hardware but has little or no control over software. How far into the future can Samsung look as compared to Apple?

Quite viable, actually. Samsung is a very strong brand that is huge in many other industries.

Stuck on, 'our team is winning'? You're mistaken. I have an iPhone 4S, switching from my Samsung Vibrant. You own an Android phone? I like competition in business and want Samsung to thrive of course. Just as any company. As much of a Nintendo fanboy I am, I was rooting for SONY when the PS3 was down.

Apple can very much fall because, they purposely leave out features. If Apple can implement the features well, then people will return. But look at the history of Apple....some of that mentality 'caused the to falter.
post #76 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by poke View Post

Quite clearly, people don't buy iPhones because they want a touchscreen, a CPU, a battery and a camera, plus assembly. They're buying the latest OS version and the promise of regular updates. They're buying access to a well-stocked, curated app market. They're buying into a set of services. They're buying exceptional support. They're buying into a media ecosystem. They're buying into an incredible track record of innovation, much of which has been delivered to existing users free of cost.

I would not doubt that those factors are important to some smartphone buyers.

But if they were crucial, then why do Android phones outsell iOS phones by a more than 2 to 1 margin?

From what I have seen the higher priced Android phones are the most popular, so I doubt that price is the a big factor for most Smartphone buyers. I wonder how important any of the the factors you list are to the average smartphone buyer.

For example, recent press said that many Android handsets are not updated to the most recent OS rev. So while it may or may not be true that "They're buying the latest OS version and the promise of regular updates." when people go with an iOS phone, it does not seem to be true of most smartphone buyers.
post #77 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post

You have to remember that Android == OS on Multiple Phones, where iPhone == 1 Product line.
The reason for the outpacing is the plethora of handsets to choose from, and people will choose the best one that matches their shoes. No single Android phone has outsold a single iPhone. That has to account for a lot.


Fanboys are fickle things, aren't they?

Yeah, I know. I just threw that out there, as fanboys seem to keep comparing useless things.


But Google doesn't care simply because they want to be on EVERY feature phone. That's a scary proposition.
post #78 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by linkgx1 View Post

Quite viable, actually. Samsung is a very strong brand that is huge in many other industries.

Stuck on, 'our team is winning'? You're mistaken. I have an iPhone 4S, switching from my Samsung Vibrant. You own an Android phone? I like competition in business and want Samsung to thrive of course. Just as any company. As much of a Nintendo fanboy I am, I was rooting for SONY when the PS3 was down.

Apple can very much fall because, they purposely leave out features. If Apple can implement the features well, then people will return. But look at the history of Apple....some of that mentality 'caused the to falter.

From reading your posts I don't believe for a minute that you have an iPhone 4S. Why would you buy a phone that, by all of your comments to date, is inferior to Samsung's phones.

If you actually bought a 4S then you would understand what I am talking about.

[you are now on ignore]
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post #79 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

I would not doubt that those factors are important to some smartphone buyers.

But if they were crucial, then why do Android phones outsell iOS phones by a more than 2 to 1 margin?

From what I have seen the higher priced Android phones are the most popular, so I doubt that price is the a big factor for most Smartphone buyers. I wonder how important any of the the factors you list are to the average smartphone buyer.

For example, recent press said that many Android handsets are not updated to the most recent OS rev. So while it may or may not be true that "They're buying the latest OS version and the promise of regular updates." when people go with an iOS phone, it does not seem to be true of most smartphone buyers.


This. Especially since the iPhone 3GS seems to be selling very well. I think more or less name brand plays a factor.
post #80 of 106
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