or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPad › Apple says Amazon Kindle Fire will further fragment Android
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Apple says Amazon Kindle Fire will further fragment Android

post #1 of 130
Thread Starter 
Apple Chief Executive Tim Cook and Chief Financial Officer Peter Oppenheimer recently indicated they are not concerned by Amazon's forthcoming $199 Kindle Fire tablet, as they believe it will only serve to fragment the Google Android platform.

Ben Reitzes of Barclays Capital recently met with Cook and Oppenheimer at Apple's Cupertino, Calif. campus. Though they expectedly did not reveal anything about the company's product pipeline, they did express optimism about Apple's current market position.

In particular, they indicated they are not concerned about the Amazon Kindle Fire, a new touchscreen tablet from the online retailer that will be powered by the Android mobile operating system. The Kindle Fire will sell for $199, or less than half the $499 entry price of Apple's iPad lineup, when it launches on Nov. 15.

"While the pricing at $199 looks disruptive for what seems to be the iPad's most important rising challenge, the Amazon Fire -- it is important to note that it could fuel further fragmentation in the tablet market -- given it represents yet another platform," Reitzes wrote. "While compatible with Android, the Apps work with Amazon products.

"The more fragmentation, the better, says Apple, since that could drive more consumers to the stable Apple platform."

Apple's response to the Kindle Fire could be viewed as evidence that the company is not planning any major moves to respond to Amazon's touchscreen tablet. In October, one rumor claimed that Apple was going to counter the Kindle Fire in 2012 with a so-called "iPad mini."

Reitzes believes that Apple will eventually get more aggressive in its iPad pricing and dip below the current $499 entry-level price of the 16GB Wi-Fi-only model. But Apple won't cut the price if it ends up sacrificing the product quality and user experience.



He believes the appeal of the iPad could be extended to more PC users if Apple were to extend keyboard options with touchpads, in addition to the touchscreen interface on the iPad itself.

As for the iPhone, Reitzes believes that Apple "clearly" has room to expand its smartphone sales with new markets and pricing strategies. He said that Cook expressed excitement both about the potential for the iPhone in Asia, as well as user response to the Siri voice recognition software on the newly released iPhone 4S.

Barclays Capital has forecast Apple to sell 30.7 million iPhones in the company's December quarter, a number that Reitzes said is "conservative," considering the rapid international rollout of the new handset. Apple announced this week that Hong Kong, South Korea and 13 more countries will gain access to the iPhone 4S on Nov. 11.
post #2 of 130
The tablet's a joke. It is no threat to Apple or to the iPad at all.

It's tiny. It's slightly larger than the large size Android phones. So are Fandroids going to be walking around with a 5" phone and a 7" tablet? Why not just get a 6" phone/tablet?

I don't think that something that is smaller than some people's penis size even qualifies to be designated a tablet. 7" is closer to a large phone than to a tablet.

It's locked into Amazon's ecosystem, and the people who buy the tablet because of it's $199 price tag aren't the kind of people that are going to be buying a lot of content.

It's not even real multitouch. It's basically a cheap tablet for people who can't afford anything else. And at it's core, there is the horrible Android running things.
post #3 of 130
Quote:
He believes the appeal of the iPad could be extended to more PC users if Apple were to extend keyboard options with touchpads, in addition to the touchscreen interface on the iPad itself.

Enough already with the keyboards, why should Apple take a leap in the past, to please who exactly? The analysts?

Keyboards are a dying breed, just like the users they supposedly would please...
post #4 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"While the pricing at $199 looks disruptive for what seems to be the iPad's most important rising challenge, the Amazon Fire -- it is important to note that it could fuel further fragmentation in the tablet market -- given it represents yet another platform," Reitzes wrote. "While compatible with Android, the Apps work with Amazon products.

"The more fragmentation, the better, says Apple, since that could drive more consumers to the stable Apple platform."


I'm not sure that the Fire is really in the same category as the iPad or the full-featured ICS tablets (assuming they eventually hit the market).

I think maybe the customers will see it as a limited-use device, and might be content with Amazon's software offerings. Most smartphone buyers don't seem to care about getting lots of various apps, or even OS updates - and it seems likely that buyers of low-priced mini-tablets might be similar.

I'm not even sure that most Fire customers will know that it runs Android under the hood. That would be kind of like customers wondering if the cylinder heads in their subcompact use a hemispherical combustion chamber - very few will care.
post #5 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sipadan View Post

Enough already with the keyboards, why should Apple take a leap in the past, to please who exactly? The analysts?

Keyboards are a dying breed, just like the users they supposedly would please...

Reitzes is obviously a pc user. He definitely sounds like someone who went to the Ballmer Business School.

"... it doesn't appeal to business customers because it doesn't even have a keyboard... I like our strategy... we are selling millions and millions and millions of phones every year, Apple is selling zero... "
na na na na na...
Reply
na na na na na...
Reply
post #6 of 130
1) I disagree with Apple's assesment. Because it's a fork it's insulated enough from the standard Android builds that it will have a null effect on Android. What it will do is hurt Android sales as if it were a $199 tablet built on WebOS, WP7, or some other OS entirely.

2) I still say this tablet-esque $199 entry-level device will help iPad sales. IOW, those that want a full-blown tablet or not afaid to spend $500+ on a tablet will be iPad customers, but those unsure of how a tablet will convenience their life might find the Kindle Fire as a feasible purchase for two bills. If they like the overall experience and want a more well-rounded tablet experience they might become iPad customers for their next purchase.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #7 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


I don't think that something that is smaller than some people's penis size

You should contact Apple's advertising department. They always use practical examples to sell their stuff.

"Want to display a life-sized penis on your tablet? The iPad can do that!"


post #8 of 130
Why would Apple feel threatened by any Android tablet? LMAO!
post #9 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

You should contact Apple's advertising department.

That's ok. I don't think that Apple would be interested in my advertising.

I think that Apple stuff is great, but I already think that too many people use Apple stuff, their stores are crowded and there is too much chaos and scalpers around when they launch new products. I found that out first hand when I went to get my iPad 2 a while ago.

My advertising campaign would consist of insulting billions of people, and I wouldn't want them to switch to Apple. The main goal of the advertising would simply be to insult people and make them mad, so that they would never switch and they could keep on using whatever inferior devices they already use.

So like I said, I doubt that I'll be contacting Apple anytime soon.
post #10 of 130
..."expected to sell well with parents who always buy the wrong thing..." SNL
post #11 of 130
Is he dense?

Whilst Android based, the Kindle Fire and Amazon Appstore/Ecosystem will emulate exactly what Apple has today.

Is it really that difficult for Tim to grasp what Amazon has on offer?
"Very disappointing to have people judging something without all the facts." - charlituna.
Reply
"Very disappointing to have people judging something without all the facts." - charlituna.
Reply
post #12 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

...
I think maybe the customers will see it as a limited-use device, and might be content with Amazon's software offerings...

What non-limited use do iPad and ICS tablets have that the Kindle Fire doesn't?
post #13 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyTab View Post

Is he dense?

Whilst Android based, the Kindle Fire and Amazon Appstore/Ecosystem will emulate exactly what Apple has today.

Is it really that difficult for Tim to grasp what Amazon has on offer?

I don't think he's dense but I think he may be using fragmentation in a more generalized form. IOW, it'll fragment the ecosystems of the tablet market which in no way helps Android's ecosystem establish itself.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #14 of 130
Good to hear from Timmy...
post #15 of 130
I love the instant "no threat" attitude some here take. This is a threat to Apple, sure head to head, the iPad is a better device, problem is this thing only costs $199, compared to $499. That alone will draw many, many people to this device. Top that with the Amazon ecosystem and it is a winner. I will never own one, I love my iPad but for Christmas I was considering buying a "family" iPad for my two girls, now I can buy them each a Fire. They are not power users and do not need the full functionality of an iPad. They are like many consumers that are in the market but just do not want to spend $499.
post #16 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

That's ok. I don't think that Apple would be interested in my advertising.

I think that Apple stuff is great, but I already think that too many people use Apple stuff, their stores are crowded and there is too much chaos and scalpers around when they launch new products. I found that out first hand when I went to get my iPad 2 a while ago.

My advertising campaign would consist of insulting billions of people, and I wouldn't want them to switch to Apple. The main goal of the advertising would simply be to insult people and make them mad, so that they would never switch and they could keep on using whatever inferior devices they already use.

So like I said, I doubt that I'll be contacting Apple anytime soon.

I think you may be onto something here...
post #17 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Apple's response to the Kindle Fire could be viewed as evidence that the company is not planning any major moves to respond to Amazon's touchscreen tablet. In October, one rumor claimed that Apple was going to counter the Kindle Fire in 2012 with a so-called "iPad mini."

Did we need evidence? Did anyone think Apple was going to bring out an iPad mini... at half the price? A made up rumour if I ever heard one.
Quote:
He believes the appeal of the iPad could be extended to more PC users if Apple were to extend keyboard options with touchpads, in addition to the touchscreen interface on the iPad itself.

Oh, and while we are visiting this old territory, may I suggest we they also add the option of a mouse?
post #18 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcoleman1 View Post

Why would Apple feel threatened by any Android tablet? LMAO!

Because at $199 the Fire is going to sell very well.
post #19 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

That's ok. I don't think that Apple would be interested in my advertising.

I think that Apple stuff is great, but I already think that too many people use Apple stuff, their stores are crowded and there is too much chaos and scalpers around when they launch new products. I found that out first hand when I went to get my iPad 2 a while ago.

My advertising campaign would consist of insulting billions of people, and I wouldn't want them to switch to Apple. The main goal of the advertising would simply be to insult people and make them mad, so that they would never switch and they could keep on using whatever inferior devices they already use.

So like I said, I doubt that I'll be contacting Apple anytime soon.

That's all very funny.

"Apple - Unless you are an old-time customer, stay the hell away!"
post #20 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

I love the instant "no threat" attitude some here take. This is a threat to Apple, sure head to head, the iPad is a better device, problem is this thing only costs $199, compared to $499. That alone will draw many, many people to this device. Top that with the Amazon ecosystem and it is a winner. I will never own one, I love my iPad but for Christmas I was considering buying a "family" iPad for my two girls, now I can buy them each a Fire. They are not power users and do not need the full functionality of an iPad. They are like many consumers that are in the market but just do not want to spend $499.

The same way a dumbphone is a threat to smartphones for both vendors and carriers, yet Apple doesn't sell dumbphones because that's not where the profit it is, yet each dumbphone sale means an iPhone that isn't sold if we assume one phone per customer.

We already have reasons to believe Amazon will lose money on each Fire so why would Apple want to enter this market segment? We also know Apple is selling about as many as they can produce with no signs of that slowing down. I think the iPad could even become more profitable than the iPhone segment in a few years.

The Kindle Fire's is likely to help legitimize and popularize the tablet market even further for those not willing to spend $500 on a tablet, which in turn will help sell more iPads as they find the tablet experience useful enough to want a real tablet. Apple could be threatened by Amazon but they'd have to come out with a better competitor that would make people choose the Kindle Fire over the iPad for the same price point. That's the long term threat Apple should be weary of.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #21 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"The more fragmentation, the better, says Apple, since that could drive more consumers to the stable Apple platform."

Or it will drive developers to the Web, which may be what Google wants.

(1) Google is all about the web as a platform
(2) Apple comes along and threatens to destroy the web with apps
(3) Google performs an Aikido move. They release a modifiable app platform, knowing over time it will fragment the app space and force people back to the web.

Compare with Microsoft Windows: yes they sold to diverse manufacturers but did *not* let them modify the source code. That is what you do if you want to take over. Google does not want to take over they want to make a mess.
post #22 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

I love the instant "no threat" attitude some here take. This is a threat to Apple, sure head to head, the iPad is a better device, problem is this thing only costs $199, compared to $499. That alone will draw many, many people to this device. Top that with the Amazon ecosystem and it is a winner. I will never own one, I love my iPad but for Christmas I was considering buying a "family" iPad for my two girls, now I can buy them each a Fire. They are not power users and do not need the full functionality of an iPad. They are like many consumers that are in the market but just do not want to spend $499.

This is zero threat to Apple, in fact it will push iPad sales even higher. The return rate on these is going to be high. "Cool i gotz a $199 Android tablet". "Wait, it runs an outdated version of Android which does not run most Android apps". "Hey there is a cool Android app...but it runs like crap on my tiny tablet because it was optimized for a 10" screen and a faster processor and graphics chip rather than my barebones, dog slow cheapo Amazon tablet". "I wish i had gotten an iPad..."
post #23 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

What non-limited use do iPad and ICS tablets have that the Kindle Fire doesn't?

I'm under the impression that it has a weaker processor and graphics than the full-sized and full-featured ones.

So games are likely to be less usable, with many impossible, at least going forward. No gyro for sure, no GPS, maybe no position sensors at all? I'm not certain.

Maybe it can do WIFI triangulation? I don't remember anything about that, however. But certain games and activities are limited by the hardware.

Does it support Flash? IIRC, ICS does. If not, major gaming deficit compared to ICS tablets.

I hear the Firte has a good web browser, which seems like 90% of what is needed in a cheap tablet.

It has little internal storage and shorter battery life, doesn't it? So bringing several movies along for a lazy weekend at the camp might not be a use you could put it to.

I don't have info on the ports - does it have any HDMI output capability? Can you bring it to your friend's house and easily plug it into his Home Entertainment System? Certainly it does not have the wireless capabilities of the iPad, which are a major advantage. I'm not sure if ICS has the sophisticated mirroring and streaming stuff that Apple is doing either - if the Fire can come anywhere close, I'd be very amazed.

No cameras, so no pics taken - but it would work friggin great to display them when out of the house.

Likely there's more.
post #24 of 130
as a new ipad 2 owner and android owner i must say..

grow up kids... they are both great devices. In practicality Fragmentation doesn't really mean shit to me. My 2 yo galaxy S can still play all the games and apps.

And the more I use the ipad, I am beginning to realize what this "walled garden" everyone is talking about. I can't even rearrange my icons my way... REALLY? WTF. That's just one of many issues in android, I can solve easily.

At this point, it's Windows for PC Android for Phones and Ipads for a tablet.
post #25 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) I disagree with Apple's assesment. Because it's a fork it's insulated enough from the standard Android builds that it will have a null effect on Android. What it will do is hurt Android sales as if it were a $199 tablet built on WebOS, WP7, or some other OS entirely.

It fragments development, and, because of all the buzz about how it is "Android" it fragments the perceived platform.
post #26 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by iDave View Post

Because at $199 the Fire is going to sell very well.

Sell IN or sell OUT.

I see lots of dust collecting on sell IN units.

   I am long on my shares of AAPL at $37.00

Reply

   I am long on my shares of AAPL at $37.00

Reply
post #27 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sipadan View Post

Enough already with the keyboards, why should Apple take a leap in the past, to please who exactly? The analysts?

Keyboards are a dying breed, just like the users they supposedly would please...

The keyboard option is called MacBook Air

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #28 of 130
The issue, as I see it, is about multipurpose device (iPad) versus more limited, but less expensive ones. It is an interesting marketing problem. Although I know it is said that noone uses a swiss knife, I believe the multipurpose nature of iPad makes it ultimately cheaper. I see also a problem for Amazon to recover from the losses they make on Kindle, because they can only achieve this by transforming it into a pure Amazon-buying device, which, for many reasons, is not a viable option.

Having said this, a pure "electronic book" device has probably its place on the market ... on the condition it is (and remains) undoubtedly more efficient than the iPad for book reading ...
post #29 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

This is zero threat to Apple, in fact it will push iPad sales even higher. The return rate on these is going to be high. "Cool i gotz a $199 Android tablet". "Wait, it runs an outdated version of Android which does not run most Android apps". "Hey there is a cool Android app...but it runs like crap on my tiny tablet because it was optimized for a 10" screen and a faster processor and graphics chip rather than my barebones, dog slow cheapo Amazon tablet". "I wish i had gotten an iPad..."

The only person that would remotely even know what you are talking about is a power user. If a power user wants a tablet, they will know what they need and buy accordingly. Since power users make up about 1% of 1% your point is moot. Also, Amazon is planning on keeping this thing locked down and on their own eco system. This tablet is aimed at the other 99.9% that just wants a simple device, which this is.
post #30 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

It fragments development, and, because of all the buzz about how it is "Android" it fragments the perceived platform.

I would doubt most buying this entry-level tablet would even know what the OS foundation is, and those that know are likely more inclined to know this is a fork. Amazon doesn't even list the OS on their product page. The only reference is with the proper name in, "Additional email apps are available in our Amazon Appstore for Android."
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #31 of 130
Why do people insist on comparing a 7" Fire tablet to a 9.7" iPad and then marvel at how much cheaper the Fire is? Amazon quotes the New York Times on the Kindle Fire page as saying, "At $199, the Fire is less than half the price of the Apple iPad at $499". That almost implies that they're comparing apples to apples (no pun intended) which they are not. Sure, BMW could run around all day claiming that their car is $10,000 less then Mercedes-Benz's, but that would be dishonest. But then, I guess I can't blame Amazon for trying to play off of consumer ignorance.
post #32 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

Likely there's more.

It doesn't have the Android Market, either. People will be able to sideload, possibly without rooting their device, but there's no guarantee that apps not from the Amazon App Market (or whatever they're calling it) will work on the Fire.

Kindle Fire purchasers — myself included, because I think it looks like a great little device — will just have to cross their fingers that it sell well enough that app makers make sure their programs run correctly on the Fire and submit them to Amazon if they want to use, say, Dropbox, Netflix, Hulu… (Although maybe the web versions work fine for those, too. We'll see!)

I think it will. But it's not a sure thing yet. Cook is right: it is further fragmenting the Android user base and forcing developers to have to ensure their apps run on Amazon's forked version of Android if they want to sell to Fire owners. If it sell well enough, though, Fire owners may not need to care. Google and Android, however, might…
Multiplex is an online comic strip about the staff of a movie theater.
Reply
Multiplex is an online comic strip about the staff of a movie theater.
Reply
post #33 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyTab View Post

Is it really that difficult for Tim to grasp what Amazon has on offer?

No he understands what it offers.

But he also understand that it's targeted to a totally different audience that weren't likely to buy an iPad anyway. So the iPad numbers will stay stable even while this thing perhaps sells and doesn't get returned in droves like some of the others. Thus he's not really worried.
post #34 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I would doubt most buying this entry-level tablet would even know what the OS foundation is, and those that know are likely more inclined to know this is a fork. Amazon doesn't even list the OS on their product page. The only reference is with the proper name in, "Additional email apps are available in our Amazon Appstore for Android."

Amazon Appstore for Android is quite a mouthful.

I agree with your point about Fire buyers not knowing/caring about the OS. I imagine that Amazon will get stuff like Angry Birds and Facebook for the Fire, and the FireBuyer will be satisfied.
post #35 of 130
There is absolutely no reason for BMW to be concerned about anything that Chevrolet comes out with, even though BMW and Chevrolet are both cars.
post #36 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

Did we need evidence? Did anyone think Apple was going to bring out an iPad mini... at half the price? A made up rumour if I ever heard one.

Oh, and while we are visiting this old territory, may I suggest we they also add the option of a mouse?

Do not awaken StylusGuy!
post #37 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by boodies View Post

...My 2 yo galaxy S can still play all the games and apps.

Probably didn't hurt that you bought a top-of-the-line phone 2 years ago. My nephew's Android phone at about the same ago isn't faring so well.
post #38 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

Did we need evidence? Did anyone think Apple was going to bring out an iPad mini... at half the price? A made up rumour if I ever heard one.

Steve already gave out the design reason against it and frankly I don't think that Tim is going to demand they flip that since to do so he's got to get Jonny on his side and Jonny was probably the one that already prototyped a less than 10 inch for Steve and why it was a bad move. And it seems that when it comes to design decisions Steve left Jonny with only the board to answer to and even then they can't really veto him on design issues. More like just the power to fire him if he majorly screws up.

I think the only way we might see a less than $499 tablet is if they decide to up the iPad to a 32, 64, something run and they keep the 16 GB in a wifi only a la the iPhones. They could sell it online only if they wanted to or even pull a Macbook and sell it only to schools and it would still go like crazy. But even then I think the cheapest we might see is $299.
post #39 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by alansky View Post

There is absolutely no reason for BMW to be concerned about anything that Chevrolet comes out with, even though BMW and Chevrolet are both cars.

Unless Chevrolet pulled a Samsung.
post #40 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

This is zero threat to Apple, in fact it will push iPad sales even higher. The return rate on these is going to be high. "Cool i gotz a $199 Android tablet". "Wait, it runs an outdated version of Android which does not run most Android apps". "Hey there is a cool Android app...but it runs like crap on my tiny tablet because it was optimized for a 10" screen and a faster processor and graphics chip rather than my barebones, dog slow cheapo Amazon tablet". "I wish i had gotten an iPad..."

You overestimate people who don't have a lot of money to spend.

I think it'll be more like "gee this Kindle Fire is pretty cool. I'm glad I didn't have to pay $500 for an iPad to do all this."
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: iPad
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPad › Apple says Amazon Kindle Fire will further fragment Android