Game makers say Apple, Steve Jobs have most influence on industry - Page 2

Jobs is a reknowned control freak and the introduction of a new device will drive that part of his mentality to protect what he sees as the right kind of user experience out of the box. But notice that Isaacson siad he was initially resistant (follows his preferences) but allowed Schiller and Forstall to convince him, especially once they demonstrated that Apple would curate the apps and control delivery - remember, Jobs is all about the user experience and controls to that OCD. And the fact that he was supporting webapps indicates that he wasn't against apps on the iPhone, just not apps that had system access. Once his team could prove to him it could be done in a way acceptable to him it was a go, and Jobs enthusiastically supported them.

And at no point did I state or even imply that Jobs was perfect or all knowing. Understanding the personality of the individual helps to understand the thought process that produced the decisions that were made. As someone who is a generational peer of Jobs and moved in some of the same circles, I don't necessarily need his autobiography to understand how he thinks. Because ultimately what you do is proof of what you believe, and having watched Jobs work through his career, there is abundant evidence to indicate why he made the decisions he did.

I don't see any evidence that Jobs "caved" as you so blithely put it. He made informed decisions based on what his executives demonstrated was possible. It is not a rational assumption to state that Jobs didn't want apps on a platform that would clearly benefit from apps. Or perhaps you believe that Jobs just didn't get how important application were to the Mac platform as well? Your caved comment simply didn't make logical sense if you understand what drove Steve Jobs.

Yet, right up until the very day that Apple announced the iPhone SDK and App Store, a lot of Mac zealots were still arguing in favor of closing off iPhone development to third parties. No, they were not saying "Apple will eventually release an iPhone SDK". Instead, they were saying things like:

Apple should not allow third parties to create native iPhone applications.
Nobody needs third party iPhone applications.
Web apps are really SWEET.

There is a difference.

On one hand, these Apple zealots encourage people to send feedback to Apple because "Apple listens" and "Apple loves its customers". But when Apple does make a change to something due to popular demand, these zealots are not willing to admit it. They cannot admit that they backed the wrong side of the issue. So they spin their argument around to say "Apple was already planning to do it all along. Apple doesn't need to listen to anybody". Same goes with copy-paste and multitasking. If Apple really was planning to add those features, then they should have just admitted that they were working on those features instead of dismissing them one day, then saying something else the next day and expecting people to have no memory of what was previously said. So unless Apple is more open about their plans to add features or fix bugs in current features, the "whiners" and "complainers" should get credit for convincing Apple to implement them.

Ferrari should go out of business because hardly anyone buys them.

Well considering you referred to my comment as "silly" and then tried ending with referring to cupidity, which means greed, and thus not making any damn sense, what was I supposed to think?


Well considering you referred to my comment as "silly" when it was a statement that has been mentioned many times in the past, your response certainly seemed geared toward the "Steve can do no wrong" from your tone and some of the things you said. Then tried ending with referring to cupidity, which means greed, and thus not making any damn sense, what was I supposed to think?


Good for you, that means jack as far as this goes.


If someone is very resistant to the idea and is turned to the other point of view, they have certainly flip flopped. You can call it caving in to someone else's viewpoint or just changing your mind, but it still ends up the same. Steve said no third party apps and from various sources did not want them on the phone. Eventually he changed his mind and a SDK was designed and the app market went thru the roof. Quibble w/my wording all you want, the facts seem pretty evident.

I still refuse to believe its going to go down like that.

Just because the iDevices are getting more popular doesn't mean many millions of people will stop loving good games.

After ditching PC gaming I am enjoying my Xbox360 with it's Microsoft mantra of open, interoperable, non-curated apps, non-proprietary interfaces and... oh wait, that doesn't apply to their most successful consumer product.

Again, I like the Xbox360 for my "mainstream gaming" but Sony and Microsoft are now milking 5 year old tech to the max and are hopelessly, hopelessly dependent on pumping oodles of cash into the "AAA" title game developers to push sales.

I'll keep saying it. Apple A6 or A7 chip, much better graphics than Xbox360 (which are fairly primitive now) and Boom! An Xbox360+ that's a fraction the size, no fan and PORTABLE too.

Indeed. Bastion is an awesome "indie" console game. iOS is good but like I said Apple just needs to offer something equivalent to consoles and they have the entire market covered... Remember, including "PC-only"(read:Mac too) titles like StarCraft2.

You know there are a lot of people (millions in fact) that don't want to have to purchase a new console every year, they like the fact that any PS3 game made will run on their PS3 purchased at any time

If Apple ever admitted that they were working on something well in advance then the media would crucify them because the product had not begun shipping yet or that it was late.. I prefer Apple's normal method of announcing things when they are ready or very close to being ready and not before. Advance notice typically causes grief.

That's fine, and convenient, and why I got an Xbox360. On PC, you literally have to update your graphics drivers each time you install a new game, sometimes, several times throughout the course of the game. Not to mention constant updates and patches to the game itself. So far Xbox360 and PS3 are pretty darn stable.

But 5 years is very long in tech, and there is no roadmap by Sony (who lost a lot of cash this past year) or Microsoft, whose Xbox360 Slim still rattles as if it's going to explode when playing a game from disc.

There is a gaping opportunity for Apple, and I want to see even better visuals and an even more immersive gaming experience. Heck, game developers want to deliver more, they are good to go once there is more horsepower in consoles. It's a big constraint trying to deliver what they envision on what is now relatively poor graphics of the PS3.

An ageing Core2 Duo, average speed 2GB of RAM, ordinary hard disk and an ageing and very mid-range GPU like an ATI HD5770 can do some killer, killer stuff with at least 2x AA at 1920x1080 60p.

The console industry has got several things right but they are definitely resting on their laurels, which is dangerous in this time and age. Not to mention, again, Sony lost a whole bunch of money this past year as a whole.

Also, to put things in perspective, the iPad is on track in the next year to sell almost as many iPads in one quarter than PS3 and Xbox360 combined sold IN AN ENTIRE YEAR.

Even if iPad growth levels off, by the end of this year, there will be ALMOST AS MANY iPADs sold than PS3s SOLD SINCE PS3 came out. There will be ALMOST AS MANY iPads sold than Xbox360s since Xbox360 came out.

http://www.vgchartz.com/article/8840...-october-29th/

Putting together a chart now.

That's what I was trying to say, there are millions of people that are happy paying for a device that has a long life, they are happy that the price of said device decreases as time goes on, a new PS3 costs half of what it did at release time, and I can still play Uncharted 3 on both the first and the last models.

And how do you know what Sony's roadmap is? What is it ok for Apple to held these things secret, but not Sony?


But I don't want to have to replace my iPad every year to play the next big game, there is nothing wrong with what the PS3 does as far as gaming goes


Are you referring to a Windows based PC? Try playing Steam games on a Mac, you need a lot higher speced machine that Windows to play the same game.


What is your point? The PS3 and X-Box are gaming machines that do so much more, the iPad is a multimedia device that you can play games on, the primary sale of an iPad is not for games, you cannot compare the sales of one of these devices to another


Again, what is your point? You may as well compare the sales of pens to crayons, they are sold for primarily different reasons.


I hope you don't use vgchartz as the source, it must be the most despised source of information regarding gaming around

What is your point?

Stability is an advantage but may also be a crutch for Sony and Microsoft. PS3 cost cutting has been blamed for Sony's past year losses.


That's fine. I'll explain further down what the impact of the iPad is. As for having to continually update, it depends on iOS developers on their backward compatibility.


Yes, but my point is a Mac is part of Apple's ecosystem that, at the present rate, will soon offer a gaming experience at all levels from mobile to tablet to console (if they do it) to PC/Mac.


You've got it backwards. The PS3 and Xbox are a multimedia device you can play games on, the iPad is extremely versatile.


They are the easiest source of data for now. Unless you have proof there are many million more units sold than shown in the graph above.

http://a.yfrog.com/img532/4672/f47.png

At the current rate of growth of the iPad, even if only 50% of users ever use it for gaming, it will be a very significant platform.

What can I do on my Xbox360... Buy movies, music and TV shows. I can do that on my iPad. I can't browse the Internet, download apps or watch YouTube in any simple way, not that I can find, feel free to correct me.

As of 6th Jun 2011 Microsoft has only demonstrated Bing and YouTube, not a full browser.

What I'm trying to do is open up people's eyes to how massive and versatile the iPad platform is going to become.

You say that you don't want to update each time to play the latest game. Fair enough. But think about this. If the iPad 3 sells 50 million units in 2012, which is very likely, that is about ALL THE UNITS OF PS3 sold for the PAST SIX YEARS.

That means, that through 2012 and 2013, a game developer making a game targeted at iPad 3 will have ALMOST THE EQUIVALENT USER BASE of THE ENTIRE PS3 USER BASE.

So, if Apple continues on its trajectory, sometime around the iPad 4, with iPad 5 being backward compatible, the iPad 4/5 will have a MUCH LARGER USER BASE THAN PS3. Like, EVER. This is big. This is significant... if the iPad 4 and 5 can pack some horsepower, and it will, and you can play games on your HDTV, which you already can.

Yes, not every person purchasing an iPad is going to play games. But some will, and the ease of entry into the iPad gamer market may be better than PS3. For some gamers, if iPad 4/5 gaming is reasonable, they might not even consider a PS3, since they might want to do some other multimedia stuff besides gaming with a PS3... So they may be better off buying an iPad instead of a PS3. Some will say, "but oh, the "real" gamer market" knows PS3 and Xbox360. But the Wii, with none of that great "AAA" titles massively outsells the PS3 and Xbox360.

It is very likely that the iPad4/5 will redefine gaming just as iPhone and iPod touch has. For better or worse, I leave that to the individual to decide. I feel that console gaming has destroyed PC gaming... for example, there will never be another "Myst" made in this decade. But do I despise console gaming? Nope, I do enjoy the console titles in a different way. Will iOS gaming destroy console gaming? Some say it already has... Again, I leave it to the individual to decide.

Really? All the searches I did say their TV division are to blame



How are software developers going to handle changes in hardware to provide this compatibility? Will the iPad play the same games designed for the iPad 5?


The iPad, iPhone, iPod have an ecosystem with iTunes, is the Mac really part of it? I don't think so, up until now it has been a device you setup your iOS device from.


That's your definition, Sony prefers to say it does everything.


I'm not saying anything about sales levels, I still don't see what the point of comparing sales of two different devices are. All I know is vgchartz are the most complained about source of data.

Lovely graph. May I ask why you have compared the sales of the iPad 1 and 2, but only included the PS3 and X-Box 360? My PS3 will play PS1, and PS2 games, only seems fair that you combine the sales of all PS devices, putting it around the 300 million mark.


I don't own a X-Box 360, and have never used one, I don't know what it can or can't do.


As above, will have to believe you on that one.


I have no issue with that, just don't make it out to be something it isn't.


That's because you don't have to replace it every year when a new model comes out


Yes, assuming that all those iPad users will purchase a game, big assumption


So you are comparing what might happen in the future with that Sony/MS sells now?


Again, you are comparing the future products of Apple to the current MS/Sony products. The PS3 has functions that the iPad does't have, and will never have, they are not directly comparable devices



Again, you are comparing the possible future devices of one company against the current offerings of others.

I don't own an iPad, and there is no current game that wants to make me drop a $1000 to purchase an iPad, I can't see any significant gaming advantage over my PS3's. Apple has been lucky that some companies have had some success with casual gaming (Apple didn't initate this, the game creators did), but they are missing the major games to drive these hardcore gamer across. But the thing is, they don't need the major gamers, Apple is doing fine doing what they are doing now. Just try and remember that they will never have 100% of the market, and people are right to purchase that they want, and no everyone wants to purchase a new device every year. The PS2 sales levels are a prime example of this.

And that highlights exactly why Jobs is important to the gaming industry. There were too many people like you who think that only super-deluxe high-end shootemup games are the only thing that matters. Your use of 'good games' suggests that you're entirely incapable of the concept that something can be a good game without requiring 100 fps on a 2 GB teratexel video card.

It's much like the introduction of the Wii. before Wii, the game console business was all about "our console is faster than last year's - and faster than the competition". Wii showed that it's possible to have a fun gaming experience by focusing on the EXPERIENCE rather than the specs. The iPhone does the same thing - it completely changes the paradigm.

Now, just as Wii didn't put PS3 and XBox out of business, the iPhone isn't going to kill your type of video games. It's simply an alternative which many people will choose.


Ah, but if you're a "REAL gamer", you always need the latest and greatest video console or PC. If someone comes out with a new video card that has a 20% higher frame rate, it's a must have - even at $500. At least, that's what all the game fanatics seem to say - and your reference to 'good games' confirms that. Lots of people are focused on specs.

Look at Wii. How long has it been without a change in performance? 5 years? And it's still selling - and people are buying lots of games. Similarly, people are able to play games on a 3 year old iPhone 3GS and enjoy the experience. It is, again, a paradigm shift. No one is ever suggesting that Doom Civilization Deathmatch Halo whatever is going to go away. It's simply a new option (low priced portable gaming) for the industry - and Apple largely led the way in that.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

No significant advantage? You mean the fact that you can pull it out of your backpack in an airplane to play a game at 30,000 feet isn't an advantage? Or the fact that the same device that does all of your remote computing allows you to play games without carrying an extra device isn't an advantage?

No one is suggesting that the iPhone will replace the xBox or PS3. It's simply an alternative. What part of that don't you understand?

Oh, and btw, you know you've lost the argument when you have to start making up stupid numbers to try to defend your choice. There isn't a single iPad model which costs $1,000. If you were only going to use your iPad for gaming, the least expensive $499 model is all you'd need. Games are small enough that the extra storage capacity isn't needed and there'd be no reason for 3G.

No public roadmap.

There is no public roadmap for the iPad 3 or iPhone 5 either.

You assume too much. Read the comment I quoted and read my response again.

I actually own a Wii. I think Nintendo make a bunch of fantasic games... probably some of the best in this console generation.

With the Wii Nintendo brought something new, innovative and fun to the market. However, most importantly, they still brought the games.

Artists, designers, writers, voice actors, directors and more joined to create multi-million dollar immersive productions more than just simple games.

When I say "good games" I don't mean, "games running at 1080p 100 fps", I mean "good games".

Steve Jobs/Apple has the most influence on gaming ....

So if that's the case, why's the Macintosh an absolute pariah as far as gaming goes?

Sure, now it's a little better, but you know what I mean.

And maybe this isn't the case for iPad, but, on the other hand, it's no PlayStation, either.

A better example:

"One DS game alone has generated over one fifth of the revenue generated for developers by the entire App Store over the course of its history (Oh and that includes all non game Apps as well)"

Also, this:


Yes, people working in the mobile (mostly iOS) industry.

Come on, this is just silly.

Buttons compare very favorably to those things. Depends on the game, of course.

Orientation, global position? Yeah, because those sure make up for the lack of proper gaming controls...


...drowning the market with cheap games, meaning that most people will never see most of those games.

Only a handful of successful games will have significant sales.

Not 100 perhaps, but Nintendo sure does have a lot of popular games.

Nope. Mobile games had existed for ages before the iPhone arrived. Look up sites like GetJar with their Java games for ancient phones.


Aha? And how many of those are making good money?

You mean .99?


Halo? Why not Super Mario Bros.? Or Wii Sports?

Why?


But how many of those are bought for gaming? People are buying them to use as a phone, not a gaming platform.

Also, those graphs are extremely dishonest and misleading. Where is the Nintendo DS? Where is the Wii? And why iPad 1+2 and only one generation of the other consoles?

Ironically, my iPad crashed twice trying to respond. Well, here goes again.

I just finished Alan Wake. I think we should not get carried away with the platforms but embrace all the new outlets of what really matters: the creativity at the intersection of liberal arts and technology.

Whether it be Angry Birds, ShootEmzAllUp, Mass Effect 2 or FarmVille, I think we should recognise all these different forms.

Sure, there's money involved but with the good games you can see the industry as a totality is moving beyond older forms such as books, TV and movies. Personally, I think TV and movies will continue to struggle. But books and music are fairly timeless... And as for "interactive entertainment" the field is still wide open for talent, passion and execution.

Maybe it is how I grew up but it is amazing to see computer games become a real art form in its own right.

I'm not here to bash other platforms. All the observations I'm making are around a few points. Sony and Nintendo have reasonable products but I am concerned that their lack of profitability in recent times may hamper rewarding evolution of gaming platforms. Same with Xbox360. I like it, and like that I can play five-year old games without updating my graphics card and drivers.

I suppose what I am trying to highlight is iPad as the "dark horse" in the gaming space. I was enthralled by Cut The Rope On iPad and intrigued but somewhat let down by Dead Space on iPad. But put it simply, as another poster mentioned, imagine a slim piece of glass and aluminium that plays a wide range of all your favourite games, including, for arguments sake, Mass Effect 4... You can hook it up to your HDTV, take it with you on the bus, train or plane, or snuggle up in bed on a cold winter night. Throw in persistent 3G and 4G connectivity, and one can see the tremendous direction Apple is going in with iOS.

I'm not knocking anyone's choice of platform, for me I actually don't like to play games on iPhone except when I'm really bored or just need to kill time. Angry Birds is perfect for that. When I need a real good dose of gaming, I fire up my Xbox360. I've always been interested in graphics (see my username) and "spoiled" with PC graphics so I chose it over PS3 because of better graphics, slimmer profile, don't need BluRay and Kinect is more interesting than PS Move.

But whatever your preference, that's fine. I don't listen to pop music because it's just not my thing, I prefer Trance and Progressive.

I'm just trying to highlight the iPad's potential in the "enthusiast/hardcore" gaming area. I didn't want to split iPad 1+2 because the data is hard to obtain and it's only been a few years. I didn't want to include Wii, DS, PSP because then I would have to put in iPhone and iPod Touch which is not what I'm focusing on.

I have no outright agenda to say iPad is going to destroy everything in its part. But it is a major force. Could Mass Effect 2, Dead Space 1/2 and Alan Wake have been experienced on an iPad 1/2. Definitely not. Maybe not even the iPad 3. But, like I said, if Apple moves in the right direction the iPad 4/5 will fill the last missing gap in Apple's gaming offerings from Angry Birds through to Call Of Duty 10 or whatever. Yes, even the Mac will have a role though it will evolve too.

This is an important point. Some types of games simply won't work well without dedicated gaming controls (buttons). But other types of games will play just fine on a touchscreen.

That's why there will always be a market for separate gaming systems (or maybe gaming hardware attachments for mobile phones?).


I don't think it has much potential there. The hardcore audience needs lots of buttons and such.


Why would you need to include the ipHone and iPod if you had included the Wii or the DS? Wii and DS are the best sellers in their respective console generations.

See, right now, I would love to grab Alan Wake on my iPad, chill in bed and listen to the soundtrack songs, rather than fire up the Xbox360 and sit in front of the TV.

Get the soundtrack on iTunes?

The reason why the iPad has no chance to topple typical console gaming is because it evolves too fast. Console games like Call of Duty spend 2+ years in development, two years is a life time in mobile technology. Look at Apple, the 3GS is ancient compared to the 4s. Hell just even the iPad to the iPad, the leap in performance is that astounding. As a developer, you get stuck coding for multiple generations, and you have a platform that is, dare i say, fragmented.

I'm sure you'd like to see it, but its a pipe dream at best. For the iPad to be a gaming console, it has to have quality games, and i just dont see that truthfully ever happening.

Those real gamers you talk about are not console gamers, they are not the majority of gamers.


That is what I am trying to say, millions of people are happy with older hardware, that is the reason consoles sell, a Wii game now plays on a Wii purchases years ago. In five years from now you cannot guarantee that the latest and greatest iPad game will work on the iPad 1

Excuse me? I have owned devices capable to mobile gaming for years, I have never played a game on a plane, including 20 hour flights, and having an iPad wouldn't change my mind in that area. As I have said, I don't see any advantage. And isn't an iPad an extra device?



I understand that, and I have been saying that throughout this thread, if you bothered to read the thread you would understand that.


Did I? Maybe you are the one that lost the argument because you don't know that more than one country in the world uses the dollar as their currency.

http://store.apple.com/nz/browse/hom...ly/ipad/select

Of the 6 models of iPad 2 listed there, three are over $1000, one is $2 below that number, and one $51.

The other posters are telling me that the iPad can do everything, books, movies, games, to store all of these you need space, Apple refuses to allow memory cards, so you need a larger sized unit, the 32GB iPad is $949, the 64GB is $1099 which you need for these flights you tell me about.

And there is no reason for 3G? Excuse me, one minute you are saying I am blind for no seeing a need, then you tell me you don't need something else? Which one is it?

Get a TV in the bedroom and play the XBox there.

But the competition on the iOS is so much greater, you're chances of having a hit game is better on a console than on iOS, did you know there's more games available for iOS than ALL console games combined, and by all I mean ALL, starting with the Atari

Why? I already paid for the game. And I can listen to any of the tracks as I like once the game is loaded.

Right, disconnect everything, take the Xbox to the bedroom, then take it back to the living room, repeat...