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Apple's Siri seen cutting Google out of valuable mobile ad views - Page 2

post #41 of 91
11/4/11 at 2:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Snitch View Post

Strong words, but not hyperbole. I remember when Yahoo and Inktomi were the kings of search, and supposedly irreplaceable. Now they are footnotes in the fast-moving history of the Intertubes. Incredibly, Apple has managed to circumvent some, if not all, need for search. They built a better mousetrap.

Interesting. I'd like to see which engine most iOS users search with.
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post #42 of 91
11/4/11 at 2:54pm
Google doesn't lose money on Android; it's actually making money on Android. Perhaps you should Google this.

Yes, Google makes money on advertising--and Apple doesn't provide any sort of search functionality at all. It wouldn't surprise me if Siri does use Google services, paying Google on the side for said results.

Even if Siri isn't using Google technology, then Apple is paying another (Bing?) for said services.
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post #43 of 91
11/4/11 at 3:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by majjo View Post

Not sure I'm following, are you saying that Google's backend won't be able to handle the increased search volume if android users started using voice actions as much as Siri? Perhaps, and Siri's somewhat shaky launch don't bode well in that regards. But that should be a simple problem to fix (throw more hardware at it).

Yes, I'm saying that Google's backend has a very difficult growth problem to match Siri. It will need:
  1. More intelligent system that will require more processing of requests.
  2. It will need to be more throughout and complete in the services in offers
  3. It will need to be much faster than Google' voice control is currently (I haven't personally used it but I've heard that it's not fun to use because of the delay).

Once all those are dealt with Google will get a lot more users using it a lot more, which means even more HW to keep it comparable. Now factor in how many more Android-based devices there are in use compared to iPhone 4Ses and you see a dilemma that is much easier for Apple to deal with, hence my suggestion of how Google could introduce a similar service.


Quote:
Are you saying that Google won't be able to expand voice actions to match Siri in features?

Not with the same ease or with seeing a direct return on the investment.

Quote:
On that point, about intelligence, granted I have not had a chance to play with a 4S in person yet, but everything that I have read about siri indicates that it is not intelligent at all. It still seems to rely on certain keywords, although its library is vast enough that to most people, its indistinguishable to AI;

Of course it responds to keywords. That's how language works. Siri is more versatile and can parse your natural language better than any other competing service. Language and intelligence between human's isn't perfect either, nor ever will be.

Quote:
but the fact that it still has issues with some basic questions, and that simply rewording some questions can trip it up indicates that it doesn't have a firm grasp on the actual language itself.

Human's get tripped up with language and ideas, too. I'm not sure why that would suggest it's any less useful or difficult for Google to implement when its worlds above what anyone else has and what iOS 4.0 had with local Voice Control.

edit: Does Google's data mining from their GOOG-411 service help them with this or will they need to buy a company the way Apple did? (still surprised Apple kept the Siri name). There are a couple options that are already on the Android Market (Speaktoit and Vlingo), but none seem to be very good right now, though how good was Siri in 2009 before Apple bought it compared to today?
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post #44 of 91
11/4/11 at 3:03pm
Uh.... Google decides whether or not Siri gets its search results. If they want to force Siri to read ads for each search, they can, and all Apple will be able to do is switch to Bing...
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post #45 of 91
11/4/11 at 3:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by majjo View Post

Don't forget that google already has a framework for something like this in place. They have voice search, a huge database of voice samples from google 411 and some IP regarding voice recognition.

They already have voice actions on android; though no where as polished, integrated (could say that about quite a few google products ), or interactive as siri. Will google expand on voice actions to match siri? I don't know for sure, but with all the hype around siri right now, i wouldn't be surprised if they do.

The questions are:

1) Will Android Assistant AndyAny work like Siri and only use [Google] web searches as a fail-through of last resort?

2) If AndyAndy only delivers web searches -- how does it compete with Siri who delivers cruft free answers and accomplishes tasks?

3) If AndyAndy delivers results -- how does Google monetize their web search service?

4) Same questions for Chrome on the desktop!

5) If Android [or Chrome] can't exploit Google web searches -- How does Google justify their existence?

6) What about the threat to [Google] web searches from Amazon Silk?

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post #46 of 91
11/4/11 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Yes, I'm saying that Google's backend has a very difficult growth problem to match Siri. It will need:
  1. More intelligent system that will require more processing of requests.
  2. It will need to be more throughout and complete in the services in offers
  3. It will need to be much faster than Google' voice control is currently (I haven't personally used it but I've heard that it's not fun to use because of the delay).

Once all those are dealt with Google will get a lot more users using it a lot more, which means even more HW to keep it comparable. Now factor in how many more Android-based devices there are in use compared to iPhone 4Ses and you see a dilemma that is much easier for Apple to deal with, hence my suggestion of how Google could introduce a similar service.

From my experiences, the delay is really network dependent more than anything. I've had times where it responded instantly, and times when it went processing for minutes. On WiFi, it always responds instantly, at least in its current form, so I don't think theres much room for improvement there.

On the processing power, you have a point. but considering the potential for how easy this makes google searches, I think google will find it worthwhile.

Quote:
Of course it responds to keywords. That's how language works. Siri is more versatile and can parse your natural language better than any other competing service. Language and intelligence between human's isn't perfect either, nor ever will be.


Human's get tripped up with language and ideas, too. I'm not sure why that would suggest it's any less useful or difficult for Google to implement when its worlds above what anyone else has and what iOS 4.0 had with local Voice Control.

Guess my point got lost in my words. My point was that because siri is not truly 'AI' in the strictest sense, its foundation is not that far removed from voice actions; meaning google, in theory, should be able to match capability through expanding their library of recognized keywords.

Quote:
The questions are:

1) Will Android Assistant AndyAny work like Siri and only use [Google] web searches as a fail-through of last resort?

2) If they only deliver web searches -- how do they compete with Siri who delivers cruft free answers and accomplish tasks?

Nah, google web searches will probably be the predominate response. I dont' see this as a bad thing tho; google web searches are pretty damn good (they wouldn't be where they are if it wasn't), and includes numerous features that can deliver 'cruft free answers'

Oh, and android already has a little green robotic mascot that I'm sure they will leverage as the face of their 'siri' ... or they can go with the DROID HAL9000-esq red eye (the geek in me really wishes that would happen)
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post #47 of 91
11/4/11 at 3:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

Uh.... Google decides whether or not Siri gets its search results. If they want to force Siri to read ads for each search, they can, and all Apple will be able to do is switch to Bing...


Apple's servers do the web searches and the results are returned to them.

I don't know if Apple would repurpose Googles results (remove ads, re-sort results)...

Google certainly seems to think that repurposing the results of others for Google's needs is OK.
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– Alan Kay –
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post #48 of 91
11/4/11 at 3:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

Who uses Google Search anyway?

Based on their last quarterly earning numbers, a lot of people do.
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post #49 of 91
11/4/11 at 4:00pm
Somehow, I think DED articles and the the subsequent torrent of furious forum visits that follow will more than make up for Siri's drop in Google ad views.
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post #50 of 91
11/4/11 at 4:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

There you go again.... it is either:

eighty-one percent from two companies

or

ninety percent from three companies

I do hope your 4S arrives soon -- Siri can help you with your math [homework]

Doh! Last time I started missing simple stuff like this repetitively I was coming down with a cold. I have an unpleasant weekend ahead of me.
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post #51 of 91
11/4/11 at 4:16pm
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post #52 of 91
11/4/11 at 4:45pm
Apple has a nice bargaining chip with Google by not opening up Siri for use in the large installed base of other iOS devices.
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post #53 of 91
11/4/11 at 4:51pm
The hatred...
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post #54 of 91
11/4/11 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naboozle View Post

Which is why I marvel that Google makes any money at all. Who the heck clicks on that BS?

Exactly. That's why Siri isn't going to hurt Google and why the article is fud. There's no data here to support anything, it's purely opinion. Which is fine, everyone is entitled to theirs. I just wish people would use fact to support their position on these things instead of making a claim with no evidence to support it.

For all we know the use of Siri will drop once the novelty wears off. It could also be huge for the iOS platform. No one knows yet because it's so new. That's why making bold claims about how Siri is going to kill Google is silly.
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post #55 of 91
11/4/11 at 4:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by grimby View Post

For all we know the use of Siri will drop once the novelty wears off. It could also be huge for the iOS platform. No one knows yet because it's so new.

No, we know Siri is a big deal, just as we knew colour television and the original iPhone were a big deal. I'm sure you can find some evidence to suggest colour television and the original iPhone were unimportant to their industries just as you can find people pooh-poohing Siri, but it obvious its more than a novelty.
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post #56 of 91
11/4/11 at 5:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

No, we know Siri is a big deal, just as we knew colour television and the original iPhone were a big deal. I'm sure you can find some evidence to suggest colour television and the original iPhone were unimportant to their industries just as you can find people pooh-poohing Siri, but it obvious its more than a novelty.

That's your opinion, but you have no facts to back it up. Look at magnetic trains, which should have been evolutionary for transportation. They never became popular outside Japan and China. How about OS/2? It was a huge leap in operating systems, but died off pretty quick.

Products fail. It's possible Siri will fade away only to be found on a top 10 list somewhere 10 years of now. As I said earlier, it's also possible it will be huge, a giant leap forward in how we communicate with machines. It's too early to tell which way it will go.
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post #57 of 91
11/4/11 at 5:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

Uh.... Google decides whether or not Siri gets its search results. If they want to force Siri to read ads for each search, they can, and all Apple will be able to do is switch to Bing...

There are limits. Since Google has a predominant position in search and web advertising, they have to be careful. They can't simply single Apple out and treat them differently than everyone else.
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post #58 of 91
11/4/11 at 5:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post

The hatred...

What "hatred" exactly?
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post #59 of 91
11/4/11 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yu119995 View Post

Interesting. I'd like to see which engine most iOS users search with.

It doesn't matter, iOS apps and Siri both bypass the use of the web and use the internet directly therefore bypassing Googles income model. This simple fact is not understood by many who fail to grasp the web isn't the internet. Google depends on the web for eyes on ads.
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post #60 of 91
11/4/11 at 7:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by grimby View Post

That's your opinion, but you have no facts to back it up. Look at magnetic trains, which should have been evolutionary for transportation. They never became popular outside Japan and China. How about OS/2? It was a huge leap in operating systems, but died off pretty quick.

Products fail. It's possible Siri will fade away only to be found on a top 10 list somewhere 10 years of now. As I said earlier, it's also possible it will be huge, a giant leap forward in how we communicate with machines. It's too early to tell which way it will go.

Siri might fade away ... or be the biggest shift in computing since the Macintosh brought a GUI to the masses.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #61 of 91
11/4/11 at 7:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kipster View Post

Apple has a nice bargaining chip with Google by not opening up Siri for use in the large installed base of other iOS devices.

So you missed [BETA], then.
PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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post #62 of 91
11/4/11 at 9:08pm
Yeah Google isn't going anywhere. The next thing we'll have is Google Microchips implanted in babies. GPS tracking from day one.
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post #63 of 91
11/4/11 at 9:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patranus View Post

I wonder if this Apple/Yelp relationship had anything to do with Yelp stepping up its attacks against Google from scraping content.

The ultimate irony is that Apple could scrape their search results fromGoogle if they really wanted (note I doubt they will) much the same way the content providers accuse Google of doing.

I think it is more likely that Apple may (if they are not already doing so) set up a similar Ad based auction house for how Siri returns it's results. This would be more effective than iAd.
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post #64 of 91
11/5/11 at 12:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by grimby View Post

Google makes money if you click on an ad, not just by using Google to search. What an FUD article.

Re-read the article, then review your comment again. Siri doesn't show ads so there is no ad to click on, hence no money for Google unless Apple/Siri have some sort of deal on the side with Google.
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post #65 of 91
11/5/11 at 1:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kipster View Post

Apple has a nice bargaining chip with Google by not opening up Siri for use in the large installed base of other iOS devices.

Like the woman in the dentist's chair...

As he tilts the chair back, the woman grabs the dentist's testicles and says:

"Now, we're not going to hurt each other, are we?"

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– Alan Kay –
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– Alan Kay –
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post #66 of 91
11/5/11 at 2:22am
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post #67 of 91
11/5/11 at 3:16am
What a stupid article.

How about when I go to Safari, go to the Google (other search engines are available) box top-right and type a query? The results page I get back has no adverts on it.

So much for Google relying on advertising, they can't even be bothered to put ads on their mobile result pages.

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post #68 of 91
11/5/11 at 3:58am
The beauty of the internet is that Ads can be better targeted so no doubt SIRI voice ads will do very well in the future.
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post #69 of 91
11/5/11 at 5:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patranus View Post

I wonder if this Apple/Yelp relationship had anything to do with Yelp stepping up its attacks against Google from scraping content.

I wonder if Apple is getting some revenue split from Yelp?
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post #70 of 91
11/5/11 at 5:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jowie74 View Post

What a stupid article.

How about when I go to Safari, go to the Google (other search engines are available) box top-right and type a query? The results page I get back has no adverts on it.

So much for Google relying on advertising, they can't even be bothered to put ads on their mobile result pages.


Did I understand you correctly - When you enter a query in the Safari web search box, you get no ads in the results? That's just not true in general. Only weird queries generate no ads.
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post #71 of 91
11/5/11 at 5:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

Re-read the article, then review your comment again. Siri doesn't show ads so there is no ad to click on, hence no money for Google unless Apple/Siri have some sort of deal on the side with Google.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

Yes, it would seem impractical for Google to shoulder the costs for Siri without getting anything in return.

Magic 8-Ball says new service terms are coming...

Well, if you ask Siri to search using either Google or Bing, you will get ads.
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post #72 of 91
11/5/11 at 5:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by grimby View Post

That's your opinion, but you have no facts to back it up. Look at magnetic trains, which should have been evolutionary for transportation. They never became popular outside Japan and China. How about OS/2? It was a huge leap in operating systems, but died off pretty quick.

Products fail. It's possible Siri will fade away only to be found on a top 10 list somewhere 10 years of now. As I said earlier, it's also possible it will be huge, a giant leap forward in how we communicate with machines. It's too early to tell which way it will go.

It's not too early. Siri is a proven hit. If it does not grow into a greater success, it would be Apple's fault for fumbling it. Recent history suggests that Apple succeeds more often than it bungles.
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post #73 of 91
11/5/11 at 5:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by majjo View Post

From my experiences, the delay is really network dependent more than anything. I've had times where it responded instantly, and times when it went processing for minutes. On WiFi, it always responds instantly, at least in its current form, so I don't think theres much room for improvement there.

I can say from personal experience that the Siri delays are roughly the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by majjo View Post

On the processing power, you have a point. but considering the potential for how easy this makes google searches, I think google will find it worthwhile.

Google will have no problems building the computational power needed, assuming they don't have it already. The power of Google search relies heavily on their server farms. They have been doing this a whole lot longer than Apple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by majjo View Post

Guess my point got lost in my words. My point was that because siri is not truly 'AI' in the strictest sense, its foundation is not that far removed from voice actions; meaning google, in theory, should be able to match capability through expanding their library of recognized keywords.


Not true AI? Why? The natural language processing alone qualifies it as true AI.
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post #74 of 91
11/5/11 at 8:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jowie74 View Post

What a stupid article.

How about when I go to Safari, go to the Google (other search engines are available) box top-right and type a query? The results page I get back has no adverts on it.

So much for Google relying on advertising, they can't even be bothered to put ads on their mobile result pages.


Unless I am mistaken, companies pay Google for their position in search results -- through things like ad words.

So, even if you see no ads, you are seeing a list of results where the companies that pay the most are at the top of the list on the 1st page of results.

That's "Front Page, Above the Fold" in the Newspaper business, "Aisle End-Cap Displays" and "Eye-level Shelves" in the Supermarket business, "Outside Back Cover" then "Inside Front Cover" in the Magazine business, A "Window Display" in your favorite phone store ...

It's called Placement.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #75 of 91
11/5/11 at 9:57am
Google originally didn't have any ads when you did a search. They only did that after they realized they had a great service but no money coming in to support it. Same story with Facebook originally no ads, now ads everywhere.

Apple is in a different situation because they have a product built around Siri the iPhone 4S. Siri sells iPhone 4S, so it doesn't need support from advertising.

Where the story might change is if/when the databases Siri is accessing, those providers start charging more for Siri access. Then apple might have to modify their pricing for the 4S, or do adds. My guess is the former. OR apple already has deals in place with the providers so they can't hike prices in the future.

Google is in trouble in this scenario because they don't make anything, they just pull their content from other sites. So apple has no need to have Siri interface with them, because they can go directly to the content makers.

That makes Siri essentially a new type of search engine for mobile phones. Google went into the phone business, and now apple is in the search engine business.

God that's smart they were probably planning this all along.
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post #76 of 91
11/5/11 at 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Unless I am mistaken, companies pay Google for their position in search results -- through things like ad words. [/I][/B]

You're both incorrect. Adwords ads show on the right hand side of the page and the first few of the top results in the middle of the page. The rest of the results are "organic" meaning the pages google thinks are most important (which is based on a lot of factors.)

You can't pay google to rank higher in the organic results, you can only pay them to rank higher in the adwords results.

It's not always obvious which results are ads. Over time they have tried to blur them as much as possible to keep you from avoiding clicking the ads.
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post #77 of 91
11/5/11 at 10:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by majjo View Post

... My point was that because siri is not truly 'AI' in the strictest sense, its foundation is not that far removed from voice actions; meaning google, in theory, should be able to match capability through expanding their library of recognized keywords.

I kinda think that statements in the general form of

"Siri is not [X]"

or

"Siri cannot [do Y]"

probably ought to contain the qualifier "yet."

I mean, this Siri thing, while pretty interesting already, might very well be hugely interesting in the not-so-distant future if its theoretical potential is even partly actualized. It could be a paradigm-shifter. A new form of human/machine interaction. I can easily imagine Steve Jobs' excitement over the possibilities here.

So okay, granted the AI is currently in a somewhat fetal stage of development. Fetuses do grow up, given the proper nurturing and whatnot. Apple seems to realize it's on to something important here -- when have they ever released a beta anything into the wild? It's likely they'll be feeding and grooming this thing for all it's worth. Whatever effect this all has or doesnt have on Google seems rather a side-show.
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post #78 of 91
11/5/11 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by majjo View Post

Don't forget that google already has a framework for something like this in place. They have voice search, a huge database of voice samples from google 411 and some IP regarding voice recognition.

They already have voice actions on android; though no where as polished, integrated (could say that about quite a few google products ), or interactive as siri. Will google expand on voice actions to match siri? I don't know for sure, but with all the hype around siri right now, i wouldn't be surprised if they do.

You obviously dont get it. Why would Google hop on that boat? They would get zero advertising income! Atleast with their current business model.

They could do the same with voice in android but would people really trust that information that would get represented to the user if some of the hits were paid hits and some wherent. As many have said they dont click on the ads in the beginning nor the right side on googles searchpage. If the user cant trust the results it will ne hard to sell your service to the user. Google is going to have a very difficult time if they consider going down the same road as apple!
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post #79 of 91
11/5/11 at 1:04pm
If voice ads are more lucrative then they need to join the party.

Phones are becoming a mature product so with saturation getting close, voice ADS become a necessity.
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post #80 of 91
11/5/11 at 5:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

There you go again.... it is either:

eighty-one percent from two companies

or

ninety percent from three companies

I do hope your 4S arrives soon -- Siri can help you with your math [homework]


I do agree that it is really clever how Google is now endangered by Siri (with help from SJ)...

...and lets give credit where credit is due -- the clever by one half persons: Rubin, Schmidt, Page.


Would not say no to being "clever by one half" then... Page basically built one of the biggest tech companies on Earth. What have you built? Rubin and Schmidt are far from idiots either!

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

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