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Apple rumored to be initiating 'union awareness' training for retail managers - Page 2

post #41 of 86
11/8/11 at 4:06am
Most Apple store employees do not work full time and like most retails jobs they do not make a lot of money. Once they see how much the union dues will cost them, they will really hate working for Apple.
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post #42 of 86
11/8/11 at 4:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

I'll give that all the problems you mentioned were real, whether they were or not. Please tell or preferably show me how the UAW solved JUST ONE of the problems that you mentioned? You can't because the UAW didn't solve any of them. ...

My biggest problem with what's going on in this country is the education system. It seems that no one knows how to think rationally or even coherently these days.

Oh, and by the way, it's not the UAW's job to solve the auto industry's problems. That's the auto industry's job. The UAW's job is to make sure the auto manufacturers treat and pay its members fairly. Unfortunately, because of the failure of our education system, it's easier for management in Detroit to simply point its fingers at the UAW and blame them than it is to accept responsibility for their own incompetence and stupidity. It also makes it easier to justify your own pay and bonuses if it's someone else's fault. It's always nice to have a whipping boy.
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post #43 of 86
11/8/11 at 4:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hankx32 View Post

I think Steve would literally climb out of his grave, tell everyone they were shit, fire them all, including the top brass and the board, cry like a baby, change the name to Zombie Computer, and run the entire thing himself, possibly keeping Jony Ive around for new designs.

This is probably correct.

The thing that strikes me about debates over unions is how totally irrational and absolutist people become. It seems to me that unions can serve a valid purpose. Sometimes they do it well, sometimes they do it poorly. Some unions are better than others, and generally speaking, I'm sure they could all be improved, perhaps dramatically. But the same is true of every other human-built institution.

I've never been in a union myself, but when my mother was teaching (she's retired now) she was a member of the teacher's union. The good thing about the union is that it provided a recourse for teachers being treated unfairly by a principal (like store managers in retail, some principals can be nothing more than vindictive petty tyrants while others can be brilliant leaders of men). The bad thing about the union is that it worked to thwart efforts to hold teachers accountable for their performance. Obviously those two things are linked -- teachers don't want to be held accountable by a vindictive petty tyrant. The mistake of the union, I think, is to object to ALL efforts to hold teachers accountable rather than to simply object to stupid/capricious ways of holding teaches accountable.

I think it would be cool if Apple were to make an effort to rethink the union and come up with a new, better institution that tries to provide some of the same worker protections of a union but that also values the success of Apple as an organization.
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post #44 of 86
11/8/11 at 4:46am
If anyone needs protection from their employer, it's retail staff.

Retail is full of bad managers, bad working practices and low pay.
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post #45 of 86
11/8/11 at 4:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

I'll give that all the problems you mentioned were real, whether they were or not. Please tell or preferably show me how the UAW solved JUST ONE of the problems that you mentioned? You can't because the UAW didn't solve any of them.

You make unions merit and performanced based instead of all about longevity and seniority and I'll support unions.

I think your right. I don't the see the abuses in labor and working conditions at Apple stores that would lead to employee dis satisfaction.
Unions had their place and time in American history. They served a purpose because big business took advantage of the workforce. Long hours very little pay. Terminations not based on merit or productivity. Child labor and horrible unsafe working conditions. People had no choice but to accept the work conditions or not work and starve.
You are deceiving yourself if you do not think it would get back to something like that again over time. Big business has shown throughout history that they will choose profit over safety time and time again. I am not pro union nor am I against them.......they serve a purpose.....

Tallest Skil:


"Eventually Google will have their Afghanistan with Oracle and collapse"

"The future is Apple, Google, and a third company that hasn't yet been created."


 


 

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Tallest Skil:


"Eventually Google will have their Afghanistan with Oracle and collapse"

"The future is Apple, Google, and a third company that hasn't yet been created."


 


 

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post #46 of 86
11/8/11 at 4:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

My biggest problem with what's going on in this country is the education system. It seems that no one knows how to think rationally or even coherently these days.

Oh, and by the way, it's not the UAW's job to solve the auto industry's problems. That's the auto industry's job. The UAW's job is to make sure the auto manufacturers treat and pay its members fairly. Unfortunately, because of the failure of our education system, it's easier for management in Detroit to simply point its fingers at the UAW and blame them than it is to accept responsibility for their own incompetence and stupidity. It also makes it easier to justify your own pay and bonuses if it's someone else's fault. It's always nice to have a whipping boy.

Very good points! The auto industry reminds me of RIM and Nokia. RIM/Nokia had all the business and all the market share but did not keep up with technology and what the public wanted. They did not innovate or match their competition. Instead keep churning out the same old designs and technology only to watch the industry change and they lost market share.

Tallest Skil:


"Eventually Google will have their Afghanistan with Oracle and collapse"

"The future is Apple, Google, and a third company that hasn't yet been created."


 


 

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Tallest Skil:


"Eventually Google will have their Afghanistan with Oracle and collapse"

"The future is Apple, Google, and a third company that hasn't yet been created."


 


 

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post #47 of 86
11/8/11 at 4:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by k2director View Post

Strong unions certainly haven't led to a strong economy for....

The U.S. steel industry
The U.S. auto industry
U.S. public education
The U.S. post office
Amtrack
etc. etc. etc....

Take every promising, dynamic, growing industry in the U.S., and you will find little to no union presence.

Take every deteriorating, decayed, moribund industry in the U.S., and you will find big, fat unions.

Unfortunately, we need those industries as much, or more, than we need tech companies.
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post #48 of 86
11/8/11 at 4:57am
So 'union awareness' is a CNET exclusive eh? What's will be their next exciting Apple Inc scoop - product placement training charts made with PowerPoint? How about the break schedules?
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post #49 of 86
11/8/11 at 5:50am
deleted
"Surely it is possible to love Apple products and still respect what others have achieved?" - Stelligent
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"Surely it is possible to love Apple products and still respect what others have achieved?" - Stelligent
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post #50 of 86
11/8/11 at 5:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjbDtc826 View Post

Strong unions = strong economy. Notice how crappy our economy is? It's cus our unions are crappy. Workers spend money- not owners. Buy American. Support our neighbors and our own jobs.

I agreed with you until you said buy American - and noticed it was posted on an Apple website, which is just as guilty of outsourcing overseas as anyone else.
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post #51 of 86
11/8/11 at 5:54am
deleted
"Surely it is possible to love Apple products and still respect what others have achieved?" - Stelligent
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"Surely it is possible to love Apple products and still respect what others have achieved?" - Stelligent
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post #52 of 86
11/8/11 at 6:01am
unions.... a bit like communism. Sounds good, but does not really work in the long run.

Good pay for shitty workers., Give the good post to the guy/girl with more seniority, not the person who is better. Choke the company if you don't get what you want.

Get an education, work hard, be honest, you wont' need a union. You'll do fine.

If a company mistreats you, screw them. Quit. Find one that treats you well.
If a company does not pay you well enough, Quit. Find one that treats you well.
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post #53 of 86
11/8/11 at 6:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivk View Post

weekends
all breaks at work, including your lunch breaks
paid vacation
fmla
sick leave
social security
minimum wage
civil rights act/title vii (prohibits employer discrimination)
8-hour work day
overtime pay
child labor laws
occupational safety & health act (osha)
40 hour work week
worker's compensation (worker's comp)
unemployment insurance
pensions
workplace safety standards and regulations
employer health care insurance
collective bargaining rights for employees
wrongful termination laws
age discrimination in employment act of 1967
whistleblower protection laws
employee polygraph protect act (prohibits employer from using a lie detector test on an employee)
veteran's employment and training services (vets)
compensation increases and evaluations (raises)
sexual harassment laws
americans with disabilities act (ada)
holiday pay
employer dental, life, and vision insurance
privacy rights
pregnancy and parental leave
military leave
the right to strike
public education for children
equal pay acts of 1963 & 2011 (requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work)
laws ending sweatshops in the united states

those evil unions! Look at all those horrible things they have fought for!

amen!
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post #54 of 86
11/8/11 at 6:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

I'll give that all the problems you mentioned were real, whether they were or not. Please tell or preferably show me how the UAW solved JUST ONE of the problems that you mentioned? You can't because the UAW didn't solve any of them.

You make unions merit and performanced based instead of all about longevity and seniority and I'll support unions.

When did it become the UAW's job to solve GM, Ford, and Chrysler's problems? The job of the UAW is to obtain fair wages and benefits, as well as fair and ethical treatment of the member employees. That's it.

When you can point out a company where pay raises and promotions was actually based on merit and performance, then I'll believe it. Instead, it's who you know and who's bottom you blow smoke up. I've yet to work for a company that people got ahead purely on merit and performance.

It's like this: Say you the manager at UPS. Your job is to oversee employees loading trucks. You have 3 people under you belt. The first person is a sloth. He barely makes it to work on time, he an okay job sometimes, other times it's not stacked well, and he is slow at it. However, he's the nephew of another manager in another department and you're stuck with him. The second person is rank average. He's on time, loads the trucks fine. The third person is just heads above the others. He gets to work early and is at his station, ready to go at the starting time. He gets as much done as the other two combined.

Now, you boss says there is a position that needs filled from within. You have to choose one of your guys to fill that position. Which one is it going to be? It's not going to be your main guy. You can't afford to lose him. The one that you'll pick will be the sloth, every time. You make him someone else's problem. This is equality? This is merit and performance based?

This is why there is seniority in most unions. I say most unions, because in trade unions, there is no seniority preference. Until there is a quantifiable way to do it, it's all subject to the whims of someone and that will never be fair.
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post #55 of 86
11/8/11 at 6:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by See Flat View Post

unions.... a bit like communism. Sounds good, but does not really work in the long run.

Good pay for shitty workers., Give the good post to the guy/girl with more seniority, not the person who is better. Choke the company if you don't get what you want.

Get an education, work hard, be honest, you wont' need a union. You'll do fine.

If a company mistreats you, screw them. Quit. Find one that treats you well.
If a company does not pay you well enough, Quit. Find one that treats you well.

No, good pay for ALL workers. They do the same job, they get the same pay. It's up to management to get poorer performing workers to work harder. It's not the union's job.

Choke the company? Buahahaha! It's called negotiations. It's the job of companies to negotiate contracts. They negotiate contracts will all sorts of parties, from supply chains to distribution chains, to retail outlets. If they can't negotiate a favorable contract with a group run by uneducated line workers, they're not going to last long with or without a union to deal with.

You have to remember that not everyone has the same opportunity in life. People come from all sorts of backgrounds. You also have to remember there is only a certain amount of demand for each type of job. If everyone went to college to study business, the market would be flooded, business jobs' pay would plummet, and many would not end up there, anyway, due to the lack of demand for that type of work. You cannot just say blanket solutions like that. It simply doesn't work. There will always be a need for people doing other jobs, no matter if you educate the entire population or not.
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post #56 of 86
11/8/11 at 6:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IVK View Post

Weekends
All Breaks at Work, including your Lunch Breaks
Paid Vacation
FMLA
Sick Leave
Social Security
Minimum Wage
Civil Rights Act/Title VII (Prohibits Employer Discrimination)
8-Hour Work Day
Overtime Pay
Child Labor Laws
Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA)
40 Hour Work Week
Worker's Compensation (Worker's Comp)
Unemployment Insurance
Pensions
Workplace Safety Standards and Regulations
Employer Health Care Insurance
Collective Bargaining Rights for Employees
Wrongful Termination Laws
Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967
Whistleblower Protection Laws
Employee Polygraph Protect Act (Prohibits Employer from using a lie detector test on an employee)
Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS)
Compensation increases and Evaluations (Raises)
Sexual Harassment Laws
Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA)
Holiday Pay
Employer Dental, Life, and Vision Insurance
Privacy Rights
Pregnancy and Parental Leave
Military Leave
The Right to Strike
Public Education for Children
Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 (Requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work)
Laws Ending Sweatshops in the United States

Those evil unions! Look at all those horrible things they have fought for!

Thanks for the history lesson. This has nothing to do with what Unions have done in the past. The majority of those things are now the law; what purpose do unions serve now? Business is already heavily-regulated. This isn't the early 20th century with sweatshops and horrible working conditions.
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post #57 of 86
11/8/11 at 6:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

Very good points! The auto industry reminds me of RIM and Nokia. RIM/Nokia had all the business and all the market share but did not keep up with technology and what the public wanted. They did not innovate or match their competition. Instead keep churning out the same old designs and technology only to watch the industry change and they lost market share.

And that's exactly what happened to Detroit. Prior to 1973, there was a healthy competititive spirit in Detroit. There was innovation. Then, it's like all 4 companies decided they no longer had to try. They put a facelift on the same technology, only to watch imports improve to the point they finally had to do something. But, it was too late. Imports already gained enough momentum that they couldn't be stopped. It was a train wreck in slow motion. Part of it was unforeseen changes around them. They couldn't have predicted the oil embargo. They weren't ready for it. But, in the end, it was mismanagement that aimed the companies right toward destruction.
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post #58 of 86
11/8/11 at 6:49am
Tell you what I'd do if I were running the show...

I'd listen to the employees to see what the major issues are, and then I'd address any points that are reasonable. An example might be if some stores are expecting employees to work overtime but without paying overtime wages. Things like that can be clearly fixed. A company has (should have) incentive to have happy employees. Happy employees make a company successful and profitable.

On the other hand, I would not allow any unions to materialize within my company. Employees are welcome to get together and socialize all they want. If they form themselves a union and try to make demands, I'd fire all their asses and give the jobs to people who actually want to work.
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post #59 of 86
11/8/11 at 6:55am
If you don't want to work there, find another job. If you don't like the work conditions, the pay, or the benefits, find another job. If some illegal practice is taking place, report it.

A union for... retail? Seriously? Are there going to be fast food unions next?

I have nothing against unions for skill positions, as teachers, nurses, steel workers, etc. are of limited supply and a valuable commodity. They've received expensive training and are hard to replace.

Excluding specialists (like the Genius Bar), retail employees are a dime a dozen. I mean, how would a union like this even work? Are they going to *gasp* strike? You mean there aren't THOUSANDS of people who could easily do a job and are desperate for work. I bet many would even take less pay just to have a job.

Unless you're in a skill position or really bring something to the table, just be thankful you have a job in this economy.
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post #60 of 86
11/8/11 at 6:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

Thanks for the history lesson. This has nothing to do with what Unions have done in the past. The majority of those things are now the law; what purpose do unions serve now? Business is already heavily-regulated. This isn't the early 20th century with sweatshops and horrible working conditions.

With unions slipping from power we're already seeing changes. It used to be that you worked 8 hr. days, and anything over that was overtime, and even doubletime. That was what the companies had to give up in return for you giving up more of your time. Now, that has changed to overtime after 40 hrs. and you can pretty much forget doubletime pay. It also used to be that Sat. and Sun. were reserved for family time. It was the weekend. The premium for working you on those days was, again, overtime for the first 8 hrs. on Sat. and doubletime after and on Sun. and holidays. Now, we have revolving shifts. Some shifts start on Tue. and go to Sat.. Some start Wed. and go to Sun.. Essentially, they've just robbed the workers of what was the established time with the family. Now, their time off isn't in sync with everyone else's time off, and there is no penalty for it.

So, basically, people got a pay reduction and didn't even notice it happening. Think even more can't change? Wait until unions get even weaker. These wealthy companies have politicians in their pockets and there isn't a law that can't be changed and talk radio will even rationalize it for them to the hypnotized masses.
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post #61 of 86
11/8/11 at 6:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytdave View Post

Tell you what I'd do if I were running the show...

I'd listen to the employees to see what the major issues are, and then I'd address any points that are reasonable. An example might be if some stores are expecting employees to work overtime but without paying overtime wages. Things like that can be clearly fixed. A company has (should have) incentive to have happy employees. Happy employees make a company successful and profitable.

On the other hand, I would not allow any unions to materialize within my company. Employees are welcome to get together and socialize all they want. If they form themselves a union and try to make demands, I'd fire all their asses and give the jobs to people who actually want to work.

Even the example you gave is a non-issue (or should be) as that's already covered by government regulations. As is safety in the work place.

Have you ever dealt with OSHA? Or any of the other government regulatory agencies that make life for a business owner very unfun? There's also minimum wage, meaning that the majority of benefits unions used to provide (to society) have been replicated by the government.
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post #62 of 86
11/8/11 at 9:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IVK View Post

Weekends
All Breaks at Work, including your Lunch Breaks
Paid Vacation
FMLA
Sick Leave
Social Security
Minimum Wage
Civil Rights Act/Title VII (Prohibits Employer Discrimination)
8-Hour Work Day
Overtime Pay
Child Labor Laws
Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA)
40 Hour Work Week
Worker's Compensation (Worker's Comp)
Unemployment Insurance
Pensions
Workplace Safety Standards and Regulations
Employer Health Care Insurance
Collective Bargaining Rights for Employees
Wrongful Termination Laws
Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967
Whistleblower Protection Laws
Employee Polygraph Protect Act (Prohibits Employer from using a lie detector test on an employee)
Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS)
Compensation increases and Evaluations (Raises)
Sexual Harassment Laws
Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA)
Holiday Pay
Employer Dental, Life, and Vision Insurance
Privacy Rights
Pregnancy and Parental Leave
Military Leave
The Right to Strike
Public Education for Children
Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 (Requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work)
Laws Ending Sweatshops in the United States

Those evil unions! Look at all those horrible things they have fought for!

I have never understood the bias against unions. The principle (not always the reality, perhaps) is good, like national health care. If you agree that the primary purpose of a corporation is to make money for its investors and not to look after the welfare of its workers, then surely it makes perfect sense that the workers need representation and an organizing body (see list above). I know the two often clash but that doesn't mean either can do without the other.
Looking at the increasing gap between the rich and the poor in most countries it would seem that Unions should be encouraged. I question anybody who feels workers should be squeezed beyond what they themselves wish to be squeezed in the name of corporate and investor profit.
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post #63 of 86
11/8/11 at 9:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tru_canuk View Post

If unionizing means much improved working conditions, fair wages and promotion based on merit / talent instead of seniority then I'm all for it.

I'll second that.

But how ironic that in "communist" China, where a lot of Apple assembly takes place likely to escape unions in the west, unions are basically in name only and follow whatever the government tells them to do. A real union on the factory floors for those Chinese workers would be a move towards a real leveling of the globalizations playing field.
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post #64 of 86
11/8/11 at 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

Thanks for the history lesson. This has nothing to do with what Unions have done in the past. The majority of those things are now the law; what purpose do unions serve now? Business is already heavily-regulated. This isn't the early 20th century with sweatshops and horrible working conditions.

No offense, as a small businessman I know where you're coming from but this is nothing to do with government putting up more red tape to hinder small to medium sized businesses, and certainly not with allowing them to shift our laboring jobs overseas. If you have to ask 'what relevance do unions have now?', work in a fast food joint in NYC at minimum wage or on illegal commission in some call center or for migrant wages on a California asparagus farm. Better yet, take a factory job assembling anything you can think of in China or a host of other 'human rights respecting countries' like Saudi Arabia or North Korea - pulling 16 hour shifts with no bathroom breaks, your employer holding your passport, etc. etc. and tell me that unions are no longer required in the 21st century.

One thing I did learn from history class was that it wasn't some nice CEO at the top or some benevolent government bigwig who ever gave anyone anything - these things were fought and paid for by our grandmothers and grandfathers in sackings, beatings, intimidation, blackballing, even killings. Another thing I learned was that if you allow history to repeat itself, it will happily oblige.
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post #65 of 86
11/8/11 at 10:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruel24 View Post

Well, let me be the first to enlighten you...

Their called trade unions and this is how they make companies more competitive: <snip>

Trade Unions, aka "managed labor" or "managed professional workforce" or other forms of professional workgroups or temp agencies aren't what people are complaining about.

People recognize the cancer that is the typical Labor Union of the 21 century and all the detrimental effects they've had on our economy.

Labor Unions are not solely responsible for our economic woes as some people would want you to think, but they are a contributing factor.
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post #66 of 86
11/8/11 at 10:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar View Post

If you have to ask 'what relevance do unions have now?', work in a fast food joint in NYC at minimum wage or on illegal commission in some call center or for migrant wages on a California asparagus farm. Better yet, take a factory job assembling anything you can think of in China or a host of other 'human rights respecting countries' like Saudi Arabia or North Korea - pulling 16 hour shifts with no bathroom breaks, your employer holding your passport, etc. etc. and tell me that unions are no longer required in the 21st century.

Your argument is not a very strong one. Burger flippers in McDonalds make at least $7.25 an hour. That is more than adequate compensation for the low skilled service that those workers provide. Migrant workers on a California farm should be paid exactly zero dollars, if they happen to be illegals, like many of them are. They have no right to work or be in this country and they shouldn't be getting paid anything.

As for China, Saudi Arabia and North Korea, it seems like you are making a case for unions being needed in those countries. That has nothing to do with unions in the US.
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post #67 of 86
11/8/11 at 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IVK View Post

Weekends
All Breaks at Work, including your Lunch Breaks
Paid Vacation
FMLA
Sick Leave
Social Security
Minimum Wage
Civil Rights Act/Title VII (Prohibits Employer Discrimination)
8-Hour Work Day
Overtime Pay
Child Labor Laws
Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA)
40 Hour Work Week
Worker's Compensation (Worker's Comp)
Unemployment Insurance
Pensions
Workplace Safety Standards and Regulations
Employer Health Care Insurance
Collective Bargaining Rights for Employees
Wrongful Termination Laws
Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967
Whistleblower Protection Laws
Employee Polygraph Protect Act (Prohibits Employer from using a lie detector test on an employee)
Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS)
Compensation increases and Evaluations (Raises)
Sexual Harassment Laws
Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA)
Holiday Pay
Employer Dental, Life, and Vision Insurance
Privacy Rights
Pregnancy and Parental Leave
Military Leave
The Right to Strike
Public Education for Children
Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 (Requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work)
Laws Ending Sweatshops in the United States

Those evil unions! Look at all those horrible things they have fought for!

Yes, some of those things are good... Let's see which ones have been unmitigated disasters, shall we? Ah yes, that would include:

* Social Security (a pyramid scheme set to bankrupt the nation)
* Minimum Wage (it's needed, but implementation needs serious help)
* OSHA (tyrannical and ridiculous)
* Worker's Comp (again, it's needed, but current system is broken)
* Pensions (can you say bankrupt?)
* Collective Bargaining Rights (collective bargaining is a function of being part of a union, it isn't a "right", and no longer needed as laws now govern the points of collective bargaining.)
* Sexual Harassment Laws (out of control - "you looked at my G-string poking above my itty bitty mini skirt! You pervert! Harassment!!")
* ADA (again, needed, but implementation is broken - why does Walmart need 20 empty parking stalls right up front?)
* Holiday Pay (nice perk, but exactly why should anyone expect to get paid when they're not working?)
* The Right to Strike (how is it a 'right'? I don't see that in the Constitution. If employees decide to strike, then they risk losing their jobs if the company doesn't cave, and that's just how life works)
* Public Education for Children (sure, our public schools are in such great shape... I don't know if you can give credit to unions for public ed... But, okay, education is important for sure, but it's broken. It's broken at the administrative level but it's also broken at the classroom level because you can't fire bad teachers because of the damn unions)
* There are other things you cite that I'm not sure you can give credit to the unions for.

Labor Unions of the past had some positive influence on the workforce of America. Those same organizations however are now corrupt and dangerous. It is not the same, and you can no longer compare them to years gone by. Unions haven't given this country anything good for at least 20 years, maybe 30. I've been around for more than 30 years, and I've been able to witness the descent. And it's not getting better.
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post #68 of 86
11/8/11 at 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Your argument is not a very strong one. Burger flippers in McDonalds make at least $7.25 an hour. That is more than adequate compensation for the low skilled service that those workers provide. ...

Uhm, that's minimum wage. I invite you to live on minimum wage for a year or 2 and then get back to us on how "adequate" it is.
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post #69 of 86
11/8/11 at 11:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

Thanks for the history lesson. This has nothing to do with what Unions have done in the past. The majority of those things are now the law; what purpose do unions serve now? Business is already heavily-regulated. This isn't the early 20th century with sweatshops and horrible working conditions.

Get rid of unions and watch at least a third of those things disappear within 5 years.
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post #70 of 86
11/8/11 at 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Uhm, that's minimum wage. I invite you to live on minimum wage for a year or 2 and then get back to us on how "adequate" it is.

Yes, I am fully aware that it's the minimum wage. It's higher now than it was just a few years ago.

And I have no intention of getting any job at any McDonald's, I'm not a high school kid looking to flip burgers. For them, $7.25 is just fine.
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post #71 of 86
11/8/11 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conrail View Post

Get rid of unions and watch at least a third of those things disappear within 5 years.

Some of those things should disappear, the system is broken and certain union workers have too much protection, which comes at the expense of children, education, business and the economy.
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post #72 of 86
11/8/11 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

If you don't want to work there, find another job. If you don't like the work conditions, the pay, or the benefits, find another job. If some illegal practice is taking place, report it.

A union for... retail? Seriously? Are there going to be fast food unions next?

I have nothing against unions for skill positions, as teachers, nurses, steel workers, etc. are of limited supply and a valuable commodity. They've received expensive training and are hard to replace.

Excluding specialists (like the Genius Bar), retail employees are a dime a dozen. I mean, how would a union like this even work? Are they going to *gasp* strike? You mean there aren't THOUSANDS of people who could easily do a job and are desperate for work. I bet many would even take less pay just to have a job.

Unless you're in a skill position or really bring something to the table, just be thankful you have a job in this economy.


People have rights, you have to respect that, it's L-A-W law.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #73 of 86
11/8/11 at 11:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjbDtc826 View Post

Strong unions = strong economy. Notice how crappy our economy is? It's cus our unions are crappy. Workers spend money- not owners. Buy American. Support our neighbors and our own jobs.

http://www.nrtw.org/free-tagging/eco...its-right-work

Looks like the reverse is true.

I also think it just doesn't work conceptually. Take this hypothetical example.

If all carpentry is covered by an union, that will mean higher wages which will mean higher costs. Given the laws of supply and demand, that will mean less work for carpentry and less carpenters.

So there will be a number of people who would have been carpenters but now have to do something else. Looks like that makes everyone poorer.
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post #74 of 86
11/8/11 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjbDtc826 View Post

So how's 2011 treating the 99%? Oh that's right...

Actually, pretty well.

By and large, unions are strongest in this country in the public sector. Naturally, the public sector is facing large seemingly insurmountable deficits that the "53%" (i.e. those of us who pay taxes) will wind up having to pay.
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post #75 of 86
11/8/11 at 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytdave View Post

Yes, some of those things are good... Let's see which ones have been unmitigated disasters, shall we? Ah yes, that would include:

* Social Security (a pyramid scheme set to bankrupt the nation)
* Minimum Wage (it's needed, but implementation needs serious help)
* OSHA (tyrannical and ridiculous)
* Worker's Comp (again, it's needed, but current system is broken)
* Pensions (can you say bankrupt?)
* Collective Bargaining Rights (collective bargaining is a function of being part of a union, it isn't a "right", and no longer needed as laws now govern the points of collective bargaining.)
* Sexual Harassment Laws (out of control - "you looked at my G-string poking above my itty bitty mini skirt! You pervert! Harassment!!")
* ADA (again, needed, but implementation is broken - why does Walmart need 20 empty parking stalls right up front?)
* Holiday Pay (nice perk, but exactly why should anyone expect to get paid when they're not working?)
* The Right to Strike (how is it a 'right'? I don't see that in the Constitution. If employees decide to strike, then they risk losing their jobs if the company doesn't cave, and that's just how life works)
* Public Education for Children (sure, our public schools are in such great shape... I don't know if you can give credit to unions for public ed... But, okay, education is important for sure, but it's broken. It's broken at the administrative level but it's also broken at the classroom level because you can't fire bad teachers because of the damn unions)
* There are other things you cite that I'm not sure you can give credit to the unions for.

Labor Unions of the past had some positive influence on the workforce of America. Those same organizations however are now corrupt and dangerous. It is not the same, and you can no longer compare them to years gone by. Unions haven't given this country anything good for at least 20 years, maybe 30. I've been around for more than 30 years, and I've been able to witness the descent. And it's not getting better.

And where would you be in terms of the nation's work force?
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post #76 of 86
11/8/11 at 1:09pm
Unions are anathema to everything Apple stands for. If people want an incredibly powerless company (that can't hire/fire based on merit, that can't control its expenses) that would not be Apple -- it would be a far less successful company.

Predictably, unionists (and trial lawyers) approach successful businesses with hands outstretched precisely because they have destroyed their earlier hosts, and need to feed on new hosts in order to continue living.
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post #77 of 86
11/8/11 at 4:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytdave View Post

Tell you what I'd do if I were running the show...

On the other hand, I would not allow any unions to materialize within my company. Employees are welcome to get together and socialize all they want. If they form themselves a union and try to make demands, I'd fire all their asses and give the jobs to people who actually want to work.

Then you'd be breaking the law.
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post #78 of 86
11/8/11 at 4:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hvance View Post

If unions come to Apple you can kiss the retail business goodbye. I for one will never enter another Apple store. I will mail order my Apple products. No union has EVER made a company more productive, competitive or innovative.

ATT is union, you gonna stop doing business with them too?
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" - Winston Churchill
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" - Winston Churchill
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #79 of 86
11/8/11 at 4:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik View Post

Unions are anathema to everything Apple stands for. If people want an incredibly powerless company (that can't hire/fire based on merit, that can't control its expenses) that would not be Apple -- it would be a far less successful company.

Predictably, unionists (and trial lawyers) approach successful businesses with hands outstretched precisely because they have destroyed their earlier hosts, and need to feed on new hosts in order to continue living.

Name one company unions have destroyed and dont choose the ones with inept management .
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" - Winston Churchill
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" - Winston Churchill
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #80 of 86
11/8/11 at 4:31pm
Id like to see you work in a late 19th/early 20th century coal mine. Unions came about because of dismally low wages and poor working conditions in such places. Take the politics and lobbying out of modern unions and they may be of greater value once again...
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