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OS X Lion growth stagnates at 16% Mac market share - Page 4

post #121 of 162
11/12/11 at 5:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaporland View Post

You are wrong. Double clicking an icon on a desktop, yes, opens the file. Double clicking a file folder in an open dialog in column view didn't used to open every file in the folder. I know this because I do it all the time in Snow Leopard without issue. Perform the action I am describing before criticizing.

A primary tenant of user interface design is don't surprise the user. Also, "contents are not always dynamically refreshed" when stored on a non-Apple server, which is what we have at work.

If I wanted to open all the files in a folder (this one had over 50 files) I would click the folder once and command-A to select all the files. But I don't want to do that.

Apple designed it so a user can easily open all the files in a folder from within preview without the extra effort of highlighting them all yet you have the audacity to claim "i'm not doing it wrong, Apple designed it wrong" Jesus, man!

How about this, when you want to see the items in a folder you click it once instead of two times, but for this to work you have to remember that items in Finder windows will automatically show up as they appear so no need to "refresh" the contents.
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post #122 of 162
11/12/11 at 5:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Just tried with Pixelmator and once again it did not open any files by merely clicking on a folder in an open and save dialog.

There's something potentially awry with your install.

Try it with Preview. It does exactly what it should do. It's a great little polish to this great app. I am now organizing my images and PDFs in such a way that i can have them all open at once with the ease of clicking on the folder in which they reside.


TEST:
  1. File a folder with test images.
  2. Open up Preview from Spotlight or Finder.
  3. Choose File » Open. Make sure you are looking at Column View or CoverFlow View.
  4. Find the folder. Click once to see items in the folder. Now double-click folder to have all its content shown in Preview.
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post #123 of 162
11/12/11 at 5:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Tell us how choosing File » Export... instead of File » Save As adds three steps to the process? You not only get more options but the current format is choose by default so it remains just as dumb as the basic Save As option that preceded it if you choose to do nothing but rename it and place in a new location.

becuase FILE - > SAVE AS allows me to save a new version of the file with a different name without having to write over the original.

Snow Leopard Process:

-Double click a screen snapshot. Crop and annotate. FILE - SAVE AS "screen01-use case 01".

-Double click the same original screen snapshot, Crop and annotate. FILE - SAVE AS "screen01-use case 02".

Obviouly I am not the only person recognizing this issue. Quoting a CNET review:

Quote:
Unfortunately, the Duplicate option does have a drawback in that it makes saving explicit duplicates a bit more cumbersome than previous options. Whereas both Save As and Save a Copy immediately created new documents on disk in the desired locations, Duplicate requires you to first create the duplicate and then save it to disk if you wish to retain it.

FWIW I've been using Macs since the 128k in 1984, so I know something of what I speak. I'm not hung up on the past and I like Apple, etc, but Lion is a dog.

And for the other commenter, there is nothing wrong with my MBP - It has all the firmware, etc, updates, and has performed flawlessly since I replaced Lion with Snow Leopard.
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post #124 of 162
11/12/11 at 5:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Apple designed it so a user can easily open all the files in a folder from within preview without the extra effort of highlighting them all yet you have the audacity to claim "i'm not doing it wrong, Apple designed it wrong" Jesus, man!

How about this, when you want to see the items in a folder you click it once instead of two times, but for this to work you have to remember that items in Finder windows will automatically show up as they appear so no need to "refresh" the contents.

I'm not in a Finder window - I'm in the Preview APP, in the OPEN DIALOG. And, when they are stored on a Windows file server, they do not always show up right away...

Good night - I have better things to do than debate UI issues.
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post #125 of 162
11/12/11 at 5:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaporland View Post

becuase FILE - > SAVE AS allows me to save a new version of the file with a different name without having to write over the original.

And your complete disregard of File » Export doing the exact same thing as File » Save As scares you because it has a new name?
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post #126 of 162
11/12/11 at 5:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaporland View Post

I'm not in a Finder window - I'm in the Preview APP, in the OPEN DIALOG.

Finder is default file manager. Open Dialogue boxes access Finder. You are purposely trying to be obtuse because your whinny comments about Save As now being called Export are getting tiresome.
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post #127 of 162
11/12/11 at 5:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elder View Post

Am I alone in thinking that this also has a lot to do with the fact that Lion requires a Core 2. All of my Apple computers in the house are running Core Duos. I have no need to buy new Macs right now because I don't require powerhouses for what I use them for. That said, I have bought all the latest operating systems from Tiger through Snow Leopard and would gladly update if I was physically able to.

My situation exactly. I think it was a mistake to exclude the Core Duo processors from the Mac OS 10.7 update.
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post #128 of 162
11/12/11 at 5:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbh0001 View Post

My situation exactly. I think it was a mistake to exclude the Core Duo processors from the Mac OS 10.7 update.

Some things to consider.
  1. How many Core Solos/Duos did they sell?
  2. How many of them are still in use when Lion was launched?
  3. What percentage of their market did they make up when Lion was launched?

From what I can see the Core Duo "Yonah" Macs had a very, very short shelf life. The first Intel-based 15" MBP was released in February 2006, the 17" MBP in April 2006, the 13" MacBook in May 2006", and each was discontinued for Core2 Duo "Merom" Macs between October and November of that same year.

We're talking almost 6 years ago since the transition started and not too many units in comparison to today. After PPC was dropped for Snow Leopard it was fully expected that Core Duo would be dropped for the next OS. I would expect the next one to even drop any 32-bit addressing, something that affected "Merom" from November 2006 to October 2007 in MacBooks. From October 2007 to October 2009 they use PAE to get 4GB, but after they were full 64-bit. That makes me wonder if Mac OS X 10.8 will cut off at 2009 Macs. If we consider that it will have a 2013 release date that could be right about time for an OS cutoff, though a little short.
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post #129 of 162
11/12/11 at 8:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Frankly, I am not surprised at all by this. Of the six Macs in active use in our household, I have upgraded one (and the other, an MBAir bought a couple of months ago came with it), and I have left the others untouched.

It has all sorts of connectivity issues -- Bluetooth and wifi connectivity has been a mess -- and I am not at all a fan of the autosave crap, now modified with a messy "Unlock, Duplicate....." etc nonsense that pops up (please bring back "Save As", Apple, save me the extra step). I have not used it in Launchpad mode once. And, many types of software I use (e.g., SPSS, Camtasia) are not compatible with it. Xcode has all kinds of issues. I could go on.....

So far, it has been a somewhat marginal, eye-candy, cute-sy, gee-look-we-have-something-new-for-the-sake-of-something-new upgrade for me.

Bottom line: People are not stupid.

No doubt. I upgraded my MBA 11 (late 2010), have a MBA 11 i7 on it (since it came pre-installed), and upgraded an iMac in the house. I haven't moved my real work machine (Mac Pro) or my wife's iMac because... well, autosave is just not something I want in general, the way Spaces was modified is not how I use it on my desktop, Launchpad is pointless, Xcode is unstable, and in general Snow Leopard was a much tighter OS.

The Lion file versioning/autosave stuff is scary if you do a lot of temporary file changes to try things out (images, diagrams) where unless you can disable it, you're going to most likely be ready to shoot the OS in about 15 minutes as you realize your 'what if' modifications have become part of the document history that you have to try to revert out. Ugh. I'm really hoping apps that have opted in to that Lion feature will start to provide preferences to opt back out of it. It's an interesting concept, but is terrible in practice for doing creative work.

That said, I do like Lion on the laptop for how it manages full screen mode, the updated Safari gestures, and the 'natural' scrolling, so I guess that's something?
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post #130 of 162
11/12/11 at 8:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbh0001 View Post

My situation exactly. I think it was a mistake to exclude the Core Duo processors from the Mac OS 10.7 update.

I think it was a mistake to have made Core Duo (Solo!) machines entirely. Apple should have hopped on at Core 2.
PhilBoogie
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post #131 of 162
11/12/11 at 8:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwissMac2 View Post

I use a Mac at work for normal office stuff and have a few older PPC programs that need Rosetta. Not many, but one or two that are essential for the business. I also don't want a "toy" OS on my desktop, although its fine on my iPad. It seems like Apple are making Microsoft's mistake in reverse - MS want the desktop OS on both desktop and tablet; Apple wants the mobile OS on both.

...

From running the Win8 beta, I'd say that Microsoft is pushing the 'toy' Metro look into the PC even more than Apple did with Lion, while at the same time bringing big chunks of the PC desktop to the tablets (hint: having a desktop on tablets didn't sell for the past decade guys...). A mess all-around.

But unfortunately that doesn't solve some of the quirks Apple added with Lion, it just means that the competition is working to make their desktop OS even more goofy and make Lion shine in comparison.
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post #132 of 162
11/12/11 at 8:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyngyrz View Post

  • Snow leopard broke many drivers and apps, so no upgrade

    <snip> Lion issues & Leopard positives removed </snip>

... I'd be severely tempted by a four CPU, 24 core, 48 thread machine with lots of memory and PCI lanes/cards/capacity so I can continue enjoying my multiple display antics;...

<snip>

... Beginning with Snow Leopard, OSX began moving in the wrong direction, and Lion... Lion is just a complete mess. Leopard supports 64-bit data models, that's the key tech that ensures the OS can handle big jobs. 64-bit program space isn't particularly significant.

...

Given the ease with which apps can soak up >4GB of memory (load up some nice global satellite images into CS5 - I've managed to use 16GB in short order!), I disagree that bringing 64-bit through the entire app stack isn't significant. Maybe not for email, but there are enough things I do daily that are quite happy to have the extra memory available, and just allowing 64-bit server jobs under Leopard wasn't enough.

That aside, Snow Leopard brought significant multithreading enhancements to both the APIs (GCD & blocks) as well as kernel improvements. I saw rendering speed boosts in the 20% range for the same version of apps thanks to improved thread-to-CPU-core affinity, which reduced cache misses & thrashing. If you really want a beast machine with 24 cores and 48 threads, I'd suggest you look beyond Leopard. You'll see performance increases just with the kernel improvements, Apple's apps are now using the threading APIs to boost their performance, and most likely the drivers that were missing years ago were updated in the meantime.
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post #133 of 162
11/13/11 at 5:51am
I would upgrade in a MINUTE if either the OS supported Quicken 2007, or, Intuit upgraded the product and didn't cripple it at the same time. This is the only thing holding me back. Personally, I think Intuit has dropped the ball, again... I have looked at the alternatives but they just don't provide what I need. What a pain.
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post #134 of 162
11/13/11 at 8:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I will be disappointed if CS6 implements this. I don't use any of the new iWorks stuff except as an intermediary for Windows Office documents, so I just delete them when I am through copying the content out of them. The only way to turn it off is to not upgrade or at least don't use applications that implement the feature.

It's particularly when using Creative Suite that I'm cringing at the very thought of this saving nonsense. It's not just the auto-save and versioning, but Export and Duplicate ALREADY have distinct functions in CS that are different from Save-As.

There's two problems with this. Adobe users will absolutely not want this saving behaviour, it will wreak havoc on workflows and cause a multitude of new problems. However, if they don't implement it, Apple will have different behaviours in different apps and new users could end up being blindsided.

It should be a user option. Make it the default, that's fine. Took me a while in Snow Leopard to find where to turn off a bunch of it's annoyances, but at least the option to change it was there.
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post #135 of 162
11/13/11 at 9:08am
It is trivial to burn a Lion install DVD from the App Store download. Just be sure you burn a copy before installing it, or it will disappear.
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post #136 of 162
11/13/11 at 9:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaporland View Post

FWIW I've been using Macs since the 128k in 1984, so I know something of what I speak. I'm not hung up on the past and I like Apple, etc, but Lion is a dog.

Well said.

A few folks here are too recalcitrant for it to be worth arguing with when it comes to "Apple sometimes does not get it or gets it wrong." Some 'features' of Lion are just plain annoying or stupid (including the lack of Save As).

Let's recognize it, agree to disagree, move along here.....
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post #137 of 162
11/13/11 at 10:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithmm View Post

It is trivial to burn a Lion install DVD from the App Store download. Just be sure you burn a copy before installing it, or it will disappear.

So, I need to buy a device that Apple is increasingly making an optional (and supposedly unnecessary) medium?

Ironic.
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post #138 of 162
11/13/11 at 10:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

So, I need to buy a device that Apple is increasingly making an optional (and supposedly unnecessary) medium?

Ironic.

You can use Disk Utilty to copy to USB flash drive, SD card, partition in SSD or HDD. Whatever works best for you.

Personally I have two made. One on an SD card (slow as molasses), one on a partition of my Time Machine HDD.

But that's all beside the point for the average user who will never had to reinstall their OS. Apple's new system allows you to reinstall Lion directly from their server. The downside of that is you have to wait for the download of over 3GB, hence some users wanting to have a local version as a backup.
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post #139 of 162
11/13/11 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithmm View Post

It is trivial to burn a Lion install DVD from the App Store download. Just be sure you burn a copy before installing it, or it will disappear.

Apple provides a utility now that allows for the creation of a Lion install disc without having the original file.

It's called Recovery Disk Assistant.
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That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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post #140 of 162
11/13/11 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

So, I need to buy a device that Apple is increasingly making an optional (and supposedly unnecessary) medium?

Ironic.

If by "ironic" you mean a high-speed 8GB USB Flash drive
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post #141 of 162
11/13/11 at 2:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsu View Post

The decision to sell a copy with install media only at much higher price probably have something to do with it.

No, no it doesn't.
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post #142 of 162
11/13/11 at 3:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

No, no it doesn't.

Not for you, for a lot of other people it does.
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post #143 of 162
11/13/11 at 4:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

If by "ironic" you mean a high-speed 8GB USB Flash drive

Why do you need 8?
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post #144 of 162
11/13/11 at 4:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Why do you need 8?

The assumption is that it won't fit on a 4. I bet it would, though.
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post #145 of 162
11/13/11 at 4:50pm
All 5 of my Macs (including the one provided at work) are still running Snow Leopard. My main reasons are:

- not wanting to take the time to install a new OS on Macs that are working fine. This is the same thing Microsoft has faced for decades. People don't install a new OS unless they have to.

- not wanting to lose access to PowerPC software. My old copy of Photoshop CS does more than I'll ever know how to. I have some other productivity software that's still PowerPC, but Photoshop is the big one. I'd also lose access to old games that I play once in a while.

- not interested in having iOS-inspired features on the desktop. Even on a MBP I never touch the trackpad unless I've had to relocate to a meeting room. I'm much happier with an external KB and 4-button mouse plus an external display. I don't want the complexity of having to deal with 2 finger, 3 finger, and 4 finger gestures. I read about someone who said it was much easier to gesture back 10 minutes in Safari than to move the cursor up to the history menu and click. How many swipes is that versus one little trip to a menu?
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post #146 of 162
11/13/11 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

The assumption is that it won't fit on a 4. I bet it would, though.

The smallest drives I see advertised anymore are 8GB and they're incredibly inexpensive.
I imagine it's hardly worth the cost of raw materials, assembly and shipping to make a 4GB drive these days given what little you can charge for the finished product.
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post #147 of 162
11/13/11 at 5:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post

The smallest drives I see advertised anymore are 8GB and they're incredibly inexpensive.
I imagine it's hardly worth the cost of raw materials, assembly and shipping to make a 4GB drive these days given what little you can charge for the finished product.

So you don't live in the U.S., then.
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post #148 of 162
11/13/11 at 7:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post

The smallest drives I see advertised anymore are 8GB and they're incredibly inexpensive.
I imagine it's hardly worth the cost of raw materials, assembly and shipping to make a 4GB drive these days given what little you can charge for the finished product.

Bestbuy.com (as just one example) has 54 USB drives of 4 GB or less compared to 120 of 8 GB or more.

While the smaller ones are becoming less common, it's not true to say that you can't find them or that they're not advertised.
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post #149 of 162
11/13/11 at 7:13pm
This probably has a lot more to do with droves of soccer moms and well-to-do teenage girls buying up Apple computers than any inherent problems with OS X Lion.

The Mac demographic has shifted, so you're going to see stuff like this.
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post #150 of 162
11/13/11 at 7:39pm
I have a late 2007 Macbook. I held off on Lion as I saw no compelling reason to "upgrade" to it over Snow Leopold. I did though a few weeks back though when I found out that i needed it for iCloud to go with my iPhone OS5 upgrade.

On the whole I have to say it is the worse OS I have had so far on my Macbook. The machine has become a power hog (the fas runs almost continuously), it has numerous crashes and slow downs and spinning beach balls galore. All in all, I'm finding it a disaster.

Natural scroll was really weird at first but I guess I am used to it now. Gestures don't work for me because my trackpad is too old, so I don't get some of the wiz-bang new stuff. Given that the music-match still isn't live, I'm left wondering if it was worth the $29 + tax for this "upgrade" when all I get that is worth it to me is some bookmark and address syncing in the 'cloud.
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post #151 of 162
11/13/11 at 9:07pm
Not much love for Lion in this thread. Could I ask someone who knows about these things, is there more to Rosetta than just the application itself? Any underlying system stuff? If not, slowing adoption of Lion and pissing off a good chunk of their customers for 3.4 MB of hard drive space seems like a piece of poor judgement.
Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
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Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
Buddha
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post #152 of 162
11/13/11 at 9:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by l008com View Post

But I have customers that use a calendar server, and they have 30 total calendars. So now in iCal, they have to click a menu just to get a list of their calendars. And that list only shows maybe 10 at a time, so they also have to scroll through that list to see them all. Compare this to Snow Leopard's iCal which simply had an always-there column showing all of your calendars. Again it's probably nice if you're on a tiny screen, but on a non-ipad screen, it's another hassle, another speed bump.

I couldn't agree with you more. Your only real solution at this point is to switch to BusyCal, which has a superior calendar interface and offers about 100 extra features that iCal doesn't offer. BusyCal *GETS* calendaring, but Apple does NOT.
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post #153 of 162
11/13/11 at 10:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marklark View Post

It doesn't support Rosetta applications.

So, I run Lion in a virtual Machine - Parallels for now.

This & many other forced changes have put a serious kink in it's appeal to business. Apple needs to get it through their thick sculls that businesses can't just jump on the newest OS because Apple gives them no other choice. I thought Apple was talking about trying to get business better, well chalk Lion up as a fail.

For personal use Lion is awesome, but for business it is a massive headache.
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post #154 of 162
11/13/11 at 10:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Bestbuy.com (as just one example) has 54 USB drives of 4 GB or less compared to 120 of 8 GB or more.

While the smaller ones are becoming less common, it's not true to say that you can't find them or that they're not advertised.

Oh you can find 4GB drives, but with prices like these:

4GB - $ 5.99
8GB - $ 7.99
16GB - $15.99

why would you bother with the 4?
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post #155 of 162
11/14/11 at 12:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Try it with Preview. It does exactly what it should do. It's a great little polish to this great app. I am now organizing my images and PDFs in such a way that i can have them all open at once with the ease of clicking on the folder in which they reside.


TEST:
  1. File a folder with test images.
  2. Open up Preview from Spotlight or Finder.
  3. Choose File » Open. Make sure you are looking at Column View or CoverFlow View.
  4. Find the folder. Click once to see items in the folder. Now double-click folder to have all its content shown in Preview.

not only it opens JPG and PDF, but it works for numbers and pages (as well as office documents) documents too and many more i just tried this after reading your message so thanks

my way or the highway...

Macbook Pro i7 13" with intel SSD 320 series and 8GB RAM, iPhone 5, iPad 3 (Retina)

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my way or the highway...

Macbook Pro i7 13" with intel SSD 320 series and 8GB RAM, iPhone 5, iPad 3 (Retina)

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post #156 of 162
11/14/11 at 6:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post

Oh you can find 4GB drives, but with prices like these:

4GB - $ 5.99
8GB - $ 7.99
16GB - $15.99

why would you bother with the 4?

Because in the US, 4GB drives are your highest price and everything else goes up from there.
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post #157 of 162
11/14/11 at 6:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Try it with Preview. It does exactly what it should do. It's a great little polish to this great app.

Sounds more like a confusing and jarring change. Double-clicking an item should not open all items within it. It's as confusing as selecting multiple folders in Windows Explorer, choosing Search and opening a separate Search window for each folder. Plain dumb.
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post #158 of 162
11/14/11 at 7:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightlie View Post

Sounds more like a confusing and jarring change. Double-clicking an item should not open all items within it. It's as confusing as selecting multiple folders in Windows Explorer, choosing Search and opening a separate Search window for each folder. Plain dumb.

It always strikes me as odd that when Apple makes a radical and time consuming change people complain, yet at the same time they complain that Apple's products are merely evolutionary, not revolutionary. I think it's a great inclusion but I think having a preference option to toggle the action would have been more ideal yet no one except me has expressed that as a way to go.
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post #159 of 162
11/14/11 at 8:21am
I have upgraded two of my three eligible computers to Lion. I don't have any problems with the OS, but downloading it on my home broadband takes 8 hours. This is why I didn't like the whole concept to begin with. The USB stick version should be $10 more to cover costs.

I don't know how much if any compression they use in the download file, but it would be nice if it could be (more) compressed.
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post #160 of 162
11/16/11 at 12:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eluard View Post

Oh well it is almost Christmas, so 'tis the season to kvetch and moan.

Here is my number one gripe with Lion: in the Finder in SL I can see how much disk space i have left. But not on Lion. On one occasion I was without knowing it very close to a full hard drive. I was transferring HD movies to the drive and it failed for lack of HD space. But there was not one warning that it would fail, and not one warning that it had failed. It was not until I looked at the folders some time later that I noticed that there were no files in them.

Now that is just brain dead. Who the hell thought that it was a good idea to take away information on file transfers and hard drive capacity?

The interface is slick and pretty, but a lot of the decisions seem to have been made by people who don't use computers for real tasks.


Finder/view/view options/item info =VIOLA!

Check it out mate
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