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AT&T sees 'challenges' ahead as it plans to sell Nokia Windows Phones in 2012

post #1 of 49
Thread Starter 
An AT&T executive said Wednesday that his company is finalizing discussions with Nokia to begin carrying its Windows Phone smartphones next year, while also noting that he believes Microsoft will face "challenges" in attracting customers away from entrenched rivals Apple and Google.

Speaking at a Morgan Stanley conference in Barcelona, Glenn Lurie, AT&T's head of emerging devices, told Bloomberg BusinessWeek that details of the agreement between Nokia and AT&T were still being completed.

"We look at every promotional period separately and decide what were going to spend our dollars on and what were going to put our efforts in, he said. But nothing to announce there on that yet.

Late last month, Nokia unveiled its first two smartphones running the Windows Phone operating system. The devices are the first in a close partnership between Microsoft and the Finnish handset maker that was announced early this year.

Nokia's new Lumia 800 (left) and Lumia 710 are its first Windows Phones.

"The carriers are acting skittish and I think AT&T may not want to give Lumia a Christmas season slot, the report noted independent industry analyst Tero Kuittinen as saying. For its part, Nokia has said it plans to release its Lumia phones in the U.S. early next year.

Microsoft rebooted its mobile operating system offerings with the release of Windows Phone 7 last year. However, the platform has failed to gain traction in the market, resulting in the company's share of smartphone sales dropping from 2.7 percent in the third quarter of 2010 to just 1.5 percent during the same period in 2011.

Given that Nokia is the world's largest handset maker by a wide margin, Microsoft's deal with the company is believed to have brought Windows Phone the critical mass it needs in order to take off. But, AT&T's Lurie warned during the conference that the software giant faces obstacles ahead of it, both for Windows Phone and Windows 8 tablets.

I think were still going to see a lot of challenges, he said on Wednesday. Im actually a fan of the Windows devices, Im also very excited about Windows 8 on the tablet devices, but youre still going to have a lot of people competing for that space.

At the least, the partnership between the two giants appears to have attracted developers to the platform. According to a recent study from Appcelerator and IDC, 38 percent of developers are "very interested" in Windows Phone, up from 30 percent last year. When asked the reason for the increase, 48 percent pointed to the Microsoft/Nokia partnership. However, Microsoft will definitely have to come from behind even with developers, as 91 percent of respondents expressed strong interest in Apple's iPhone. The iPad was also a close second, attracting 88 percent of developers.
post #2 of 49
I want that blue Lumia 800. I'll get it from FInland direct if I can't get it in the States.
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post #3 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I want that blue Lumia 800. I'll get it from FInland direct if I can't get it in the States.

From a design perspective the Lumia 800 is simply breathtaking. From a tech perspective however I can't help the feeling it's a bit of a dead duck.

From all accounts WP7 on the Lumia 800 is just as fluid and smooth as any other hardware. That said the gen 1.5 style specs, the lack of a front facing camera, no LTE and NFC make me think the Lumia 800 will still be breathtaking beautiful in a couple of years, but it will also be looking very dated technically.

Paul Amsellem (Nokia's general manager in France) let it slip that the Lumia 800 is like Nokia's mid-range phone. So who knows, maybe when they come to the States early next year they will bring a phone as advanced technically as it is beautiful.
post #4 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

From a design perspective the Lumia 800 is simply breathtaking.

I am thinking it is kind of nice looking, too. I have to wonder if that is because it looks like an iPod .
post #5 of 49
I wish um all the best luck with this one. Maybe there will be a low-end smart phone that is not always six to eight months behind in updates.
post #6 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabbelen View Post

I am thinking it is kind of nice looking, too. I have to wonder if that is because it looks like an iPod.

Probably not. If I'd never seen an iPod the Lumia 800 would still be very nice looking phone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtapps View Post

I wish um all the best luck with this one. Maybe there will be a low-end smart phone that is not always six to eight months behind in updates.

At the moment WP7 updates rates are way ahead of anything except iOS. We'll see how they go after a couple of hardware generations.
post #7 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I want that blue Lumia 800. I'll get it from FInland direct if I can't get it in the States.

So what makes you want this mobile phone that much? I am just curious. I have heard and seen good things from MS about WP7 (mango) OS. But what stands out for you?

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post #8 of 49
Consumers, especially in the mobile market, are a very fickle bunch... They usually follow buzzwords and brands. There is no such thing as "entrenched". One only needs to look at Nokia and RIM to see how fast users are willing to abandon mobile platforms.

The only platforms that will survive are the ones that can build a loyal user base, Right now, Apple has the most loyal users and highest retention rates of any platform.
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post #9 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I want that blue Lumia 800. I'll get it from FInland direct if I can't get it in the States.

I have always wondered why Jony Ive is considered to be the best industrial designer of our era. Now I know why. These Nokia prototypes are abominable abortions. My coffee spewed through my nose when I took a gander.
post #10 of 49
Cloner Windows Phones are already available around the world and are a complete and total failure because they are horrible. The UI is unusable. The OS is terrible. The browser is third rate. Putting a Nokia label on the phones is not going to change this. Microsoft needs to stop pissing away shareholders money and focus on milking their illegally obtained desktop and productivity suite monopolies. that is how they will enrich their investors.
post #11 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

Cloner Windows Phones are already available around the world and are a complete and total failure because they are horrible. The UI is unusable. The OS is terrible. The browser is third rate. Putting a Nokia label on the phones is not going to change this.

It's not like I don't understand that you're only trolling when you vent like this. I get it, you're angry and you're bitter and you just want to lash out. That's cool, I was easily able to block you so I very rarely need to see any of it.

But let me just make one point for you to ponder. It doesnt matter if you don't understand design or have terrible taste. If you can't look at those Lumia 800's and at least acknowledge that they are a beautiful example of industrial design then there's something wrong with you, or rather, something missing.
post #12 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

From a design perspective the Lumia 800 is simply breathtaking. From a tech perspective however I can't help the feeling it's a bit of a dead duck.

From all accounts WP7 on the Lumia 800 is just as fluid and smooth as any other hardware. That said the gen 1.5 style specs, the lack of a front facing camera, no LTE and NFC make me think the Lumia 800 will still be breathtaking beautiful in a couple of years, but it will also be looking very dated technically.

Paul Amsellem (Nokia's general manager in France) let it slip that the Lumia 800 is like Nokia's mid-range phone. So who knows, maybe when they come to the States early next year they will bring a phone as advanced technically as it is beautiful.

ROFLOL - "breathtaking"????? you mean the way it resembles an anodized aluminum iPod from the past?
post #13 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

So what makes you want this mobile phone that much? I am just curious. I have heard and seen good things from MS about WP7 (mango) OS. But what stands out for you?

He never was the brightest bulb in the room!
post #14 of 49
My problem with Windows Phone is that its tied to MS' offerings. Hotmail is atrocious. It's now my spam account. Bing search sucks outside the USA. And I'm not all that sure, it's great in the USA. Bing Maps is also atrocious. What's the update cycle on that thing? My 5 year old condo in Ottawa doesn't show up, even though the street is on there. And there's no bus schedules for my city either, even though Google has had it for nearly two years now.

The OS is nice. But MS' services are terrible and being so tied to them is the anchor holding back what would be an otherwise great OS.

The one nice thing about WP7 though would be Zune Pass. That's an amazing offering that I wish either Apple or Google matched.
post #15 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

Cloner Windows Phones are already available around the world and are a complete and total failure because they are horrible. The UI is unusable. The OS is terrible. The browser is third rate. Putting a Nokia label on the phones is not going to change this. Microsoft needs to stop pissing away shareholders money and focus on milking their illegally obtained desktop and productivity suite monopolies. that is how they will enrich their investors.

Are you sure you're talking about Windows Phone and not Windows Mobile?
post #16 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange View Post

ROFLOL - "breathtaking"????? you mean the way it resembles an anodized aluminum iPod from the past?

I agree.

It's basically a 2nd/5th gen blue iPon Nano that's wider with a larger screen, buttons on the side instead of the top, and obviously no click wheel. Basically a flattened anodized aluminum tube. Nothing new or noteworthy to see here design-wise, move along.

I'm not saying it doesn't look nice, it's just been done, before, a lot.



post #17 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange View Post

ROFLOL - "breathtaking"????? you mean the way it resembles an anodized aluminum iPod from the past?

Are you suggesting that anodized aluminum iPod was ugly?
post #18 of 49
MS has a history of throwing vast amounts of money away on things that (more often than not) don't pay off.

This is their (probably last) shot for the phone market. If they want to be relevant they should throw away a big chunk of money and work deals with the carriers so that customers would get a rebate (like $50 or maybe $100) if they get a 2 year contract with a windows phone (i.e. pay the customers to take the phones) - then they'd get all they could make into consumer's hands and a good chunk of those would probably stick to the platform in 2 years (without rebates).

Because of MS's lackluster stock performance over the years, its under alot of pressure not to waste money these days, but if they want in on the phone market they'll need to buy their way in to get appreciable marketshare - or they could just sit back and take those licensing fees from Android phones that they've got Google developing for them.

Without something radical marketing wise (like paying customers a rebate with a 2 year contract), I don't see how they can get much marketshare against other phones as iOS and Android already have the market diced up.
post #19 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

Consumers, especially in the mobile market, are a very fickle bunch... They usually follow buzzwords and brands. There is no such thing as "entrenched". One only needs to look at Nokia and RIM to see how fast users are willing to abandon mobile platforms.

The only platforms that will survive are the ones that can build a loyal user base, Right now, Apple has the most loyal users and highest retention rates of any platform.

They are fickle, which is why it is important to lock them in.

Apple's ecosystem is second to none. It both attracts new users, and locks in existing users who buy apps and accessories.

If somebody gets an iHome alarm clock for example, they might be more likely to get another iPhone, instead of repacing it with an Android phone, seeing as how the iPhone plugs right in. If they spend $100 on apps which they enjoy, they might be more likely to get another iphone, rather than buy all the apps a second time for a new platform.

They are fickle, but they can be locked in. Apple knows how to do it - with a superior ecosystem. That is why market share is so important to Apple - it makes a self-perpetuating ecosystem, which in turn makes it more likely to retain existing customers.
post #20 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

My problem with Windows Phone is that its tied to MS' offerings.

My problem is that it requires you to buy apps only from the OS manufacturer's store. If you want an app, you won't get it unless M$ will allow you to have it.

That alone is enough to make me 100% uninterested in getting a Windows Phone.
post #21 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

They are fickle, which is why it is important to lock them in.

Apple's ecosystem is second to none. It both attracts new users, and locks in existing users who buy apps and accessories.

If somebody gets an iHome alarm clock for example, they might be more likely to get another iPhone, instead of repacing it with an Android phone, seeing as how the iPhone plugs right in. If they spend $100 on apps which they enjoy, they might be more likely to get another iphone, rather than buy all the apps a second time for a new platform.

They are fickle, but they can be locked in. Apple knows how to do it - with a superior ecosystem. That is why market share is so important to Apple - it makes a self-perpetuating ecosystem, which in turn makes it more likely to retain existing customers.

Fallacious argument to the extreme. A majority share of the market has nothing to do with Apple's ability I maintain a grow their consumer base. Stopping making up stupid shit!
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post #22 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

It's not like I don't understand that you're only trolling when you vent like this. I get it, you're angry and you're bitter and you just want to lash out. That's cool, I was easily able to block you so I very rarely need to see any of it.

But let me just make one point for you to ponder. It doesn't matter if you don't understand design or have terrible taste. If you can't look at those Lumia 800's and at least acknowledge that they are a beautiful example of industrial design then there's something wrong with you, or rather, something missing.

Some people have no taste...Miller Light sells well. If you think a copy of an iPod/iPhone is brilliant design, that is your choice. Some of us prefer original design and engineering, just like some of us prefer finer beers like Dogfish Head.

Coming up with something new is hard, copying someone else's work takes no work at all. there was a picture of a blue ipod nano scaled up in the forums a while back, amazing how the Nokia phone looks _exactly_ like it. quite a coincidence.

By the way, you said you block me yet you are still replying to my posts. Funny how that works....
post #23 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

My problem is that it requires you to buy apps only from the OS manufacturer's store. If you want an app, you won't get it unless M$ will allow you to have it.

That alone is enough to make me 100% uninterested in getting a Windows Phone.

LOL. Oh the irony!
post #24 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

My problem is that it requires you to buy apps only from the OS manufacturer's store. If you want an app, you won't get it unless M$ will allow you to have it.

That alone is enough to make me 100% uninterested in getting a Windows Phone.

Not to mention they lock the search button to the horrible BING search service. Guess they are afraid of competition and do not allow choice. No one would use BING if it was not forced on them, Google search is so much better.
post #25 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I want that blue Lumia 800. I'll get it from FInland direct if I can't get it in the States.

Love it hate it, Nokia proves to SAMSUNG that a post-2007 smartphone doesn't have to look like the iPhone to look good. Where are the Samsung defenderz on this thread? The "So Apple thinks it owns the rounded rectangle" trolls when confronted with a smartphone that isn't another rounded rectangle with edge to edge glass? Oops.

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post #26 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Love it hate it, Nokia proves to SAMSUNG that a post-2007 smartphone doesn't have to look like the iPhone to look good. Where are the Samsung defenderz on this thread? The "So Apple thinks it owns the rounded rectangle" trolls when confronted with a smartphone that isn't another rounded rectangle with edge to edge glass? Oops.

it isn't a copy of Apples designs? Check this out....http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...4&postcount=97
post #27 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

It's not like I don't understand that you're only trolling when you vent like this. I get it, you're angry and you're bitter and you just want to lash out. That's cool, I was easily able to block you so I very rarely need to see any of it.

But let me just make one point for you to ponder. It doesnt matter if you don't understand design or have terrible taste. If you can't look at those Lumia 800's and at least acknowledge that they are a beautiful example of industrial design then there's something wrong with you, or rather, something missing.

No need to block bullhead. Opinions can't harm you. You are safe.

As for what's "beautiful", isn't it a matter of personal taste or one's subjective feelings? I don't know that anyone could apply the label "beautiful" and expect universal agreement on some kind of objective, or at least universal standard for it (without involving biology anyway). I mean, look at fashion. What we thought looked cool in the 60s, 70s, and 80s looks dated today.

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post #28 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

[...] According to a recent study from Appcelerator and IDC, 38 percent of developers are "very interested" in Windows Phone, up from 30 percent last year. When asked the reason for the increase, 48 percent pointed to the Microsoft/Nokia partnership. [...]

I hear Microsoft was giving away free WP7 handsets if you bought $500 at a Microsoft Store a few weeks ago.
That's one copy of Office Professional (for Windows) for 1 user and 2 PCs. Or 1 copy of Windows 7 Ultimate plus a printer.
Add those free WP7 phones to the 90,000 WP7 phones they gave to all Microsoft employees, and they're only at 1.5% now?
They should have given their employees 2 or 3 WP7 handsets so they could claim bigger market share.

But seriously, I'm sure the 38% of developers who claim to be "very interested" in Windows Phone have heard that Android malware has spiked 472% since July.
Microsoft seems to finally be getting a handle on security. Google, on the other hand, only cares about ad impressions.
And boy does it ever show.

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post #29 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Fallacious argument to the extreme. A majority share of the market has nothing to do with Apple's ability I maintain a grow their consumer base. Stopping making up stupid shit!

Stop making shit up and claiming that I said it. I never claimed Apple needed a "majority share of the market" for any purpose.

Apple needs a sufficient market share in order to have a first class ecosystem. That ecosystem, in turn, is one factor in growing and maintaining their consumer base. And it is a major factor.

If you don't understand what is said, please ask for clarification. I sometimes don't insert intermediary steps within what I say, but instead, assume that they are obvious.

If you can't figure out how X leads to Y, just ask. Or just reread. Or something. Please.
post #30 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

Not to mention they lock the search button to the horrible BING search service. Guess they are afraid of competition and do not allow choice. No one would use BING if it was not forced on them, Google search is so much better.

Is it locked? That is exactly the sort of thing many people would discover post-purchase. What a drag.
post #31 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

Stop making shit up and claiming that I said it. I never claimed Apple needed a "majority share of the market" for any purpose.

Apple needs a sufficient market share in order to have a first class ecosystem. That ecosystem, in turn, is one factor in growing and maintaining their consumer base. And it is a major factor.

If you don't understand what is said, please ask for clarification. I sometimes don't insert intermediary steps within what I say, but instead, assume that they are obvious.

If you can't figure out how X leads to Y, just ask. Or just reread. Or something. Please.

Let me try to put it into simpler terms you can understand. If Apple's primary focus was marketshare and not profit, they would 1) not focus on premium products but instead flood the market with as many products as possible to get as much marketsahre as possible, and, most importantly, 2) wouldn't only create its mobile OS for their own HW, but instead give it away to anyone and everyone that would have it as to increase their marketshare.

Here's a scenario for you:

Company A has 1% of the market and takes in 90% of the profit from that market from a market that has 10 billion total users.

Company 2 has 80% of the market but only takes in 2% of the profit from that market that only has 10 million total users.

Which one do of these scenarios do you think Apple would rather be in, the one that gets them the most profit or the one that gets the most unit share of the market?

As you should be able to see Apple cares not for marketshare at the expense of profit share, which they dominate in. That is why your comment "That is why market share is so important to Apple " is complete BS.

The smartphone market is going to grow and there is a good chance Apple's unit share of that market will eventually decrease, just like it did with the Mac 'PC', but Apple is still the most profitable 'PC" maker in the world with about 35-40% yet only about 5% of the world's PC sales by unit.

If you can't see that Apple won't give up profit to increase market share then you really need to go back to school.
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post #32 of 49
I know a bunch of you think Gruber of Daring Fireball is in the hand of Apple and not at all objective, but read his experience with the Nokia Lumia 800 with WP7.5 and watch Nokia's promo video.

»

http://daringfireball.net/linked/201...7/nokia-lumia-
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post #33 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Let me try to put it into simpler terms you can understand. If Apple's primary focus was marketshare and not profit,

...


If you can't see that Apple won't give up profit to increase market share then you really need to go back to school.


You started out by saying implicitly that I believed that Apple's primary focus was marketshare. That's where you first went wrong.

I snipped out everything in the middle and went to your conclusion.

The conclusion seems to depend on your initial misapprehension about what I said, and develops it into a theory that I believe that Apple would give up profit to increase marketshare.

Stop making shit up.

It is important for Apple to maintain a healthy market share in order for Apple to maintain a healthy ecosystem in order to attract and satisfy customers IN ORDER TO MAXIMIZE TOTAL PROFITS.

FFS.
post #34 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

it isn't a copy of Apples designs? Check this out....http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...4&postcount=97

The only thing in common is the colour, is Apple the only place allowed to make a blue device?
post #35 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

My problem with Windows Phone is that its tied to MS' offerings. Hotmail is atrocious. It's now my spam account. Bing search sucks outside the USA. And I'm not all that sure, it's great in the USA. Bing Maps is also atrocious. What's the update cycle on that thing? My 5 year old condo in Ottawa doesn't show up, even though the street is on there. And there's no bus schedules for my city either, even though Google has had it for nearly two years now.

The OS is nice. But MS' services are terrible and being so tied to them is the anchor holding back what would be an otherwise great OS.

The one nice thing about WP7 though would be Zune Pass. That's an amazing offering that I wish either Apple or Google matched.

If you don't like Bing Maps, then get a Nokia WP7 device and use Nokia Maps. And will the built in browser not take you to the google page?
post #36 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

The only thing in common is the colour, is Apple the only place allowed to make a blue device?

huh? Simply stretch the iPod Nano and you have an almost exact replica of the cloner Nokia Phone. It really is not hard to see even if you have no sense of design
post #37 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

If you don't like Bing Maps, then get a Nokia WP7 device and use Nokia Maps. And will the built in browser not take you to the google page?

better yet, simply don't get a Windows Phone like everyone else.
post #38 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

huh? Simply stretch the iPod Nano and you have an almost exact replica of the cloner Nokia Phone. It really is not hard to see even if you have no sense of design

The Lumia 800 is no Nano clone. Sure, there are some similarities but this far, far removed from the KIRFs we've seen from Samsung copying the product design, accessories, OS and even icons.

Windows Phone 7 is unique and quite good for a modern mobile OS. The physical design does have rolled sides like the Nano (and even the iPod minis that came before it) but that is really where any potential copying ends. The Lumia 800s casing is flat on the front and back, not rolling. The glass is raised and beveled for a more fluid look and feel, which is very unique and comes across great in the demos and images. The ends are slightly pinched like a machine cutting taffy off an assembly line.

The most you could say is that the Lumia 800 was initially inspired by the Nano, but you couldn't say it's a copy of the Nano.
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post #39 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

As for what's "beautiful", isn't it a matter of personal taste or one's subjective feelings? I don't know that anyone could apply the label "beautiful" and expect universal agreement on some kind of objective, or at least universal standard for it (without involving biology anyway).

What I'm trying to get at is that even if someone doesn't like it personally, they should still be able to understand what other people see in it.
post #40 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

What I'm trying to get at is that even if someone doesn't like it personally, they should still be able to understand what other people see in it.

No, I think there are plenty of people who definitely cannot see beyond their own point of view.

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