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Motorola seen as 'likely' to win German patent suit against Apple's iCloud

post #1 of 52
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A German court appears poised to rule against Apple and in favor of Motorola over alleged patent infringement related to iCloud.

In a hearing held Friday in the German city of Mannheim, it was a "dreadful" day for Apple, according to Florian Mueller of FOSS Patents. He said at this point in the proceedings, the court does not appear to believe any of Apple's arguments, and he's confident that if the court made a ruling on Friday, it would have been in favor of Motorola Mobility.

Lucky for Apple, a final decision is not scheduled to be delivered until Feb. 3, 2012. But Mueller still feels that Motorola is "fairly likely" to win a patent injunction against Apple's iCloud product.

The lawsuit is related to European Patent 0847654 (B1), entitled "Multiple Pager Status Synchronization System and Method." It is the European equivalent of U.S. Patent No. 5,754,119, which carries the same name.

The lawsuit was actually filed last April, before Apple unveiled iCloud, and originally targeted its predecessor, MobileMe. After iCloud was announced, Motorola argued in court that MobileMe is "integrated" into iCloud, and it's just a name change for the product.

"The issue for Apple here is that it would probably (if not almost certainly) be accused of infringing the patent-in-suit with any products containing the iCloud client software," Mueller wrote. "While the patents covers a synchronization technology that requires a server, and Apple Sales International does not operate the servers (maybe Apple Inc. does, or otherwise some subsidiary other than the Irish distribution organization), all Apple devices containing the client software could be deemed to infringe the patent-in-suit contributorily."

Because iCloud is now integrated into so many Apple products, including iOS devices and new Macs running OS X 10.7 Lion, Apple has asked the court to set a bail of 2 billion euro, or $2.7 billion U.S. The bail amount is meant to ensure that the defendant will be compensated if an injunction is put in place and later overturned. In this case, it would apply if the court were to place an injunction barring the sale of Apple products, only for the decision to be changed by an appellate court.



"The court was wondering whether that hefty amount truly reflects the economic damages Apple would suffer from enforcement, given that the iCloud is only one Apple offering and doesn't correspond to the entire value of its products," he wrote. "But Apple's lawyers insisted that an enforcement against its product sales in Germany could result in damages of that magnitude."

Earlier this month, Motorola also won a default judgment in German court though that decision was portrayed as "procedural" by the company, and having "nothing to do with the merits of the case." Experts have said they expect the injunction to be suspended.

Apple's legal battles with Motorola, which extend across the globe, have taken on an even greater meaning since August, when Google announced it plans to acquire Motorola mobility for $12.5 billion. Motorola shareholders voted to approve the proposed deal on Thursday, though the acquisition is still pending regulatory approval, and is expected to be finalized by early 2012.
post #2 of 52
Lucky Apple were awarded the location patent which will apply to every smartphone product motorola make then isn't it.

Also, Activesync from Microsoft would also infringe this patent?
post #3 of 52
LOL. Apple has a ways to go to reinforce it, but good point

Motorola is going to suck the air out of Google. The RAZR, their premier offering through 2012, is getting negative reviews. Nice pixelated display. I will enjoy listening to Google's earnings announcements when they talk about their huge money losing hardware business and 20k new non-search employees

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post #4 of 52
Excerpt from patent:

As the acceptance of selective call communication devices, or pagers, including two-way pagers, continues to grow, and as their affordability continues to improve, some users are acquiring pagers which have a same selective call address. Pagers come in different form factors or colors to complement a user's attire. Thus, the user carries one pager at one time with one apparel outfit and another pager at another time with another outfit. For example, a neon colored belt worn pager is used for a day at the beach, and a black and gold pen pager with a business suit is used for an evening business meeting.



I guess it depends of what the meaning of "Pager" is.

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post #5 of 52
Apple could always not offer iCloud in Germany.

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post #6 of 52
So now Motorola owns the right to sync something with a server? Well, I guess Android users better get ready to kiss your maps app goodbye when Apple comes after you.
post #7 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Oak View Post

LOL. Apple has a ways to go to reinforce it, but good point

Motorola is going to suck the air out of Google. The RAZR, their premier offering through 2012, is getting negative reviews. Nice pixelated display. I will enjoy listening to Google's earnings announcements when they talk about their huge money losing hardware business and 20k new non-search employees

you're confusing the RAZR (from 2004) that was a load of crap with the DROID RAZR (2012) which is actually not bad. Its supposed to have a screen just as good or better than the Galaxy SII.

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post #8 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Apple could always not offer iCloud in Germany.

The thing that is irritating is that as Apple refines things that have been done by many other companies without complaints from the likes of Motorola, and solely because Apple finally makes it just work without any hoops to jump through the patent trolls come out from under their rock. iCloud is basically just the Internet with a new name and user interface. The Internet is not patentable.

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post #9 of 52
It may be getting to the point that all the parties beat each other up enough to realize the only good decision is call a truce. These suits aren't benefiting the mobile industry or consumers in any way.

Everyone's made their points:
-Don't copy my look and packaging. At least be unique in design and presentation.
-If you're using a FRAND-encumbered technology, approach the holder and arrange for licensing.
-I have patents you need, you have patents I need. Rather than suing each other, let's make a deal.
-If a patent troll is attacking one of us, understand you may be next on the list. Let's coordinate.
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post #10 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Apple could always not offer iCloud in Germany.

Originally Posted by Marvin

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Originally Posted by Marvin

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post #11 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

The thing that is irritating is that as Apple refines things that have been done by many other companies without complaints from the likes of Motorola, and solely because Apple finally makes it just work without any hoops to jump through the patent trolls come out from under their rock. iCloud is basically just the Internet with a new name and user interface. The Internet is not patentable.

I think this is about synchronizing technology, not internet. Could someone out there explain why Motorola is after Apple, yet not Dropbox, Sugarsync, and all other similar services?
post #12 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Oak View Post

The RAZR, their premier offering through 2012, is getting negative reviews. Nice pixelated display. I will enjoy listening to Google's earnings announcements when they talk about their huge money losing hardware business and 20k new non-search employees

I don't know whose reviews you found negative.

From Engadget's review wrap-up:

"So has Motorola succeeded in reclaiming the prestige that once belonged to the RAZR brand? Unequivocally, yes -- the handset is just physically stunning. It's thinner than almost any phone on the market and makes no sacrifices to attain its slim physique. It's solidly constructed from premium materials like diamond-cut aluminum, Gorilla Glass and a sheet of super-slick Kevlar. Few phones out there can even be put in the same category when it comes to build quality. It's not the most ergonomically sound handset on the market, but for those who cherish form over function (the very targets of a so-called fashion device), that's a sacrifice worth making."

EDIT: I just noticed you claimed the RAZR as Moto's premier phone for next year. Rumors abound of one and perhaps two quad-core phones from Motorola as early as three/four months from now. I don't think they're sitting back and depending on the RAZR for 2012.
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post #13 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by erio View Post

I think this is about synchronizing technology, not internet. Could someone out there explain why Motorola is after Apple, yet not Dropbox, Sugarsync, and all other similar services?


Right but that is how the Internet works. I put a file on a server which is attached to the Internet and that file becomes accessible to anyone I give permission to, from wherever they are in the world, so long as they have a connection to the Internet. The words I just typed are now synchronized with everyone's computer as they read them. And every subscriber to this thread simultaneously received an email notification.

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post #14 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Right but that is how the Internet works. I put a file on a server which is attached to the Internet and that file becomes accessible to anyone I give permission to, from wherever they are in the world, so long as they have a connection to the Internet. The words I just typed are now synchronized with everyone's computer as they read them. And every subscriber to this thread simultaneously received an email notification.

I think the guy is wrong. I think Apple will be just fine when the ruling happens on this case. Simply connecting to the internet at all would be an infringement.
post #15 of 52
They can't win against Apple in the US so they go to Europe hoping that the German Government will take sides against Apple. All these law suits on other countries. What a poor way to try and slow Apple down. I imagine that Apple has a huge Leal team and spends millions upon millions of dollars to that legal team.

Motorola.

Apple attitude towards Motorola and Samsung.
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post #16 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Apple could always not offer iCloud in Germany.

Agreed. If the German courts want to cause major issues for apple then Apple can always pull out of germany and any other country in the EU.
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post #17 of 52
Apple is pushing for a huge bond on Moto's part because it has an ace in the hole.

They are daring Moto to move ahead.

I love it.
post #18 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Apple is pushing for a huge bond on Moto's part because it has an ace in the hole.

They are daring Moto to move ahead.

I love it.

Other reports indicate the judge doesn't agree with Apple's bond request valuation. Moto will move ahead. Apple will make a settlement offer that likely includes some exchange of IP, and both will settle their differences, at least for now. That's my opinion anyway.
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post #19 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerk36 View Post

Agreed. If the German courts want to cause major issues for apple then Apple can always pull out of germany and any other country in the EU.

Of course they can. What do 500 million affluent customers matter anyway.
post #20 of 52
You play with the bull, you get the horns. I have no sympathy for a company who is trying to patent the black rectangle. All this patent madness just needs to stop.
post #21 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

Of course they can. What do 500 million affluent customers matter anyway.

The EU needs Apple more than Apple needs the EU.

Or was that Samsung?
post #22 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I don't know whose reviews you found negative.

From Engadget's review wrap-up:

"So has Motorola succeeded in reclaiming the prestige that once belonged to the RAZR brand? Unequivocally, yes -- the handset is just physically stunning. It's thinner than almost any phone on the market and makes no sacrifices to attain its slim physique. It's solidly constructed from premium materials like diamond-cut aluminum, Gorilla Glass and a sheet of super-slick Kevlar. Few phones out there can even be put in the same category when it comes to build quality. It's not the most ergonomically sound handset on the market, but for those who cherish form over function (the very targets of a so-called fashion device), that's a sacrifice worth making."

EDIT: I just noticed you claimed the RAZR as Moto's premier phone for next year. Rumors abound of one and perhaps two quad-core phones from Motorola as early as three/four months from now. I don't think they're sitting back and depending on the RAZR for 2012.

Hey... you're the guy who said that Motorola's brand wasn't worth shit so don't go sticking up for them now. I, of course, said that Moto had an excellent brand and would resurface at one point or another.
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post #23 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Hey... you're the guy who said that Motorola's brand wasn't worth shit so don't go sticking up for them now. I, of course, said that Moto had an excellent brand and would resurface at one point or another.

I've never said any such thing. You've mistaken me with some other poster apparently.
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post #24 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

The EU needs Apple more than Apple needs the EU.

Or was that Samsung?

not sure if serious
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post #25 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerk36 View Post

Agreed. If the German courts want to cause major issues for apple then Apple can always pull out of germany and any other country in the EU.

When this thought manifested itself in your head, did you at least once run it by your brain for approval before you hit the: Submit Reply button?
post #26 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I've never said any such thing. You've mistaken me with some other poster apparently.

You're right. Apologies. It was that Cloudgazer guy.
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post #27 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


Classic!
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post #28 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

You're right. Apologies. It was that Cloudgazer guy.


Wonder what happened to him? Agree with him or not, he always put up a good argument.
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post #29 of 52
Was ist das? Das ist Scheiße!
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post #30 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by erio View Post

I think this is about synchronizing technology, not internet. Could someone out there explain why Motorola is after Apple, yet not Dropbox, Sugarsync, and all other similar services?

$$$...Leverage...Retaliation...Spite...Moogle Trading Currency
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post #31 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

It may be getting to the point that all the parties beat each other up enough to realize the only good decision is call a truce. These suits aren't benefiting the mobile industry or consumers in any way... /snip

Yes they are, Samsung has already been forced to innovate by having to release the 10..1n Tab for the German market, they also had to innovate changes to the gallery in the Netherlands.

Now consumers have a real choice, not just another copy.
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post #32 of 52
From the US version of the patent:

"Status changes made on first pager (130 and 530) are wirelessly communicated to an infrastructure (110 and 510) which communicates the status changes to other pagers (150 and 550) so that the other pagers make corresponding status changes. Thus, a user's status changes made on one pager are automatically made on the user's other pagers. Status changes include changes to received messages, alarm times, alert thresholds, and key word alerts."

This sounds like PubSub to me, an idea from computer science.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubSub

According to Wiki, the first known example was in 1987. Wouldn't this could as prior art (or whatever the term is), since it is 11 years before this patent?
post #33 of 52
All those other products offer value to Motorola's offerings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by erio View Post

I think this is about synchronizing technology, not internet. Could someone out there explain why Motorola is after Apple, yet not Dropbox, Sugarsync, and all other similar services?
post #34 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwlaw99 View Post

You play with the bull, you get the horns. I have no sympathy for a company who is trying to patent the black rectangle. All this patent madness just needs to stop.

Do you have a link to this mysterious "black rectangle" patent?

I've often heard it referred to but I've never actually seen it.

Searches of various patent offices for "black rectangle" have been fruitless.
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post #35 of 52
post #36 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Wonder what happened to him? Agree with him or not, he always put up a good argument.

Hmmm... he argued that the Moto brand was worth basically nothing. So, at least that one time, he didn't present a good argument. Bad premise, bad argument.

... but, he's gone now so I won't continue.
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post #37 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Was ist das? Das ist Scheiße!

Ja! Das stinkt!
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post #38 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Hey... you're the guy who said that Motorola's brand wasn't worth shit so don't go sticking up for them now. I, of course, said that Moto had an excellent brand and would resurface at one point or another.

yea he probably doesnt realize that the cable modem next to his computer is made by Motorola
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post #39 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

[IMG][/IMG]

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post #40 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Apple is pushing for a huge bond on Moto's part because it has an ace in the hole.

They are daring Moto to move ahead.

I love it.

Are you forgetting Google owns Motorola now?
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