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Combined Mac, iPad sales to make Apple top global PC vendor in 2012 - Page 2

post #41 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

And all of those things you can do from a smartphone...so should that be considerd a PC by your use definitions? So if you categorize a tablet a PC by what it can do and a smartphone can do the same things then by your definition a smartphone should be a PC as well.....

Unbelievable... it wouldn't matter what I said, typical trolling response! If you actually believe that then what more is there to say? Maybe this, I'll bet you wouldn't consider picking up a smartphone to use for those tasks but an iPad is quite capable of performing them.
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post #42 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:06am
So we've gone from "the iPad isn't a personal computer because you have to connect it to a Mac/PC running iTunes to activate it" to "iPads aren't personal computers because they can't do as much as Mac OS/Windows"? I guess that makes only Windows tablets personal computers, but what about Windows 8 that will ue a new UI specifically for the touch UI?

Sounds like a lot of sour grapes to me. The idea that it's not a personal computer unless users can have carte blanche access to delete root files that will brick their machine is a pretty lame excuse. I'd think the term personal would be a big enough clue as to what a personal computer is. After all, the iPad does a lot more and is a lot more powerful than most of the history of "PC"s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher126 View Post

My brain is a computer, is it "personal," too?

Best

Not if you tell us about it.
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post #43 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:08am
Seriously

The argument to this article is if the iPad is a computer?

Who cares, I mean really... is it that big of a deal if and iPad is or is not a computer?

People are getting insulting because they disagree if an iPad is a computer?

Wow....
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post #44 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGNR8 View Post

Seriously

The argument to this article is if the iPad is a computer?

Who cares, I mean really it is that big a deal if and iPad is a computer.

People are getting insulting because they disagree if an iPad is a computer?

Wow....

Oh... I thought that we came here specifically to insult each other.
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post #45 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher126 View Post

My brain is a computer, is it "personal," too?

Best

How do you know that your brain is a computer, because perhaps you can think? How many computers think and how many brains compute?
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post #46 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11thIndian View Post

Ultimately, the reason why I think iPads should be included into PC marketshare is because someone- albeit a limited sliver of the market, IS buying the iPad as a PC replacement. That being the case- how can it NOT be included in the same category?

I could replace my car with a motorcycle. It does roughly the same job. However, a motorcycle will never be a car. It has different characteristics.

I also suspect that some people are replacing their PC with a smartphone. Again, that doesn't mean that a smartphone is a PC. It has different characteristics.
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post #47 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IQatEdo View Post

So many personal computers are used for transacting email and playing games on and that's it. What makes those systems special in ways that the iPad isn't? In fact, a lot of PC users would benefit greatly by dropping the useless box of Windows junk and going to an iPad instead.

I could reply to at least 6 posts here with the same opinion as above.

Fact: I'm switching over people over from WinXP boxes and assorted laptop trash, to iPad's at almost 1/day.

Fact: every single one of those people are thanking me continuously, and love their "NEW COMPUTER"!

Their words, not mine. So. If the average person on the street: moms, kids, business people (sales mostly), seniors, etc. all call it a "computer", should it not be counted as such?

PS. I must admit, that many people also correct themselves and say, "iPad" after a moment. It must really "P' the geeks off... because you know, outside of America, tablet and slate don't translate well, and similar to "Kleenex" and a "Xerox", iPad is what anything like it, is nominally called.

Deal with it!
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post #48 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IQatEdo View Post

The term PC will disappear into yesteryear. It was coined in an age long gone and is a term that, as the iPad has shown, is becoming less and less relevant every day. Hopefully, it will take at least some trolls with it.

Agreed. The term PC has, for many reasons, become increasingly irrelevant.

However, we still have the problem of whether or not we lump tablet computer sales with desktop, laptop and netbook computer sales to come up with a total "personal computer" (NOT Personal Computer") sales figure.

An iPad is much more capable than a PC manufactured in 1999. Should we rename older PCs to no longer be called PCs?

My opinion: if netbooks are included in the total, then tablet computers should be too, as they serve most of the functions of a netbook and are displacing them.

BTW, tablet computer sales always were included in PC sales totals before the iPad came out. Why change now?

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post #49 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGNR8 View Post

Seriously

The argument to this article is if the iPad is a computer?

Who cares, I mean really... is it that big of a deal if and iPad is or is not a computer?

People are getting insulting because they disagree if an iPad is a computer?

Wow....

Yes, because the entire point of the article is about sales figures based on how the iPad is classified. The same thing happens when you compare Apple to a single other smartphone vendor vs comparing Apple to Android which includes all vendors. If the iPad is included, then that makes things very complicated with what should also be included (other tablets, Kindle's, smartphones, computer screen refrigerators etc). It's all very subjective.
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post #50 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11thIndian View Post

A PC isn't defined as a device that allows you do to everything, it's a device that allows you to do everything you want to do. For some people, an iPad meets that definition.



And if all he wants to do is to add, subtract, multiply and divide, then the calculator on his keychain is a PC.

And if he someday wants to calculate a square root? Then it is no longer a PC.

At least, that seems to be what your logic leads to...
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post #51 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

I could replace my car with a motorcycle. It does roughly the same job. However, a motorcycle will never be a car. It has different characteristics.

I also suspect that some people are replacing their PC with a smartphone. Again, that doesn't mean that a smartphone is a PC. It has different characteristics.

Bad analogy imo.

By your definition a laptop would not be a personal computer.
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post #52 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post



Not if you tell us about it.

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post #53 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac.World View Post

If you can classify a POS Dell netbook as a pc, then an iPad def qualifies!

Absolutely! You would not believe the trash I've been migrating data from

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

So we've gone from "the iPad isn't a personal computer because you have to connect it to a Mac/PC running iTunes to activate it" to "iPads aren't personal computers because they can't do as much as Mac OS/Windows"?,<snip>

Actually, my clients and friends that have switched, can actually "do more" than they ever were able to on their "PC". Know why? They're not afraid of the d*** thing!!! To a person, everyone that has switched is afraid to change anything, open anything, surf to their hearts content, whatever. Scared of their email even! Pure fear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

After all, the iPad does a lot more and is a lot more powerful than most of the history of "PC"s.

One of the first things I have to show people is that, unlike their old laptop, or teller machines, you only need to "caress" or lightly touch an iPad... or any Apple product.

You should see the way these people bang on the glass, fully expecting the trash experience of their last... uhm... "computer".

Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOROM View Post

Agreed. The term PC has, for many reasons, become increasingly irrelevant.
<snip>

My opinion: if netbooks are included in the total, then tablet computers should be too, as they serve most of the functions of a netbook and are displacing them.

BTW, tablet computer sales always were included in PC sales totals before the iPad came out. Why change now?

Exactly!
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post #54 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguy911 View Post

When we refer to "PCs" that's a term for a general purpose computer that can have any OS loaded, unrestricted applications and supports all common devices (keyboard, mouse, printer, scanner, monitor, video capture, webcams, pen drives, etc.).

Well it was your list after all....
keyboard: yes
mouse: no need, iPad has a touch interface, right?
printer: yes (wirelessly, to a modern printer)
scanner: built-in camera (BTW, who uses scanners anymore?)
monitor: built-in, and wireless output to TV
video capture: built-in video
webcams: not yet
pen drives: huh?

So the difference is a webcam and a "pen drive?" Funny that you didn't mention an optical drive...

And loading "any" OS, is not something that 99% (that's us!) of buyers want or need. Designing ANY system for the 1% is proving to be a bigtime fail.

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Well now that we can finally increase the font size on main posts, PLEASE change the forum format so one can actually read comments on an iPhone.

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post #55 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguy911 View Post

Yes, because the entire point of the article is about sales figures based on how the iPad is classified. The same thing happens when you compare Apple to a single other smartphone vendor vs comparing Apple to Android which includes all vendors. If the iPad is included, then that makes things very complicated with what should also be included (other tablets, Kindle's, smartphones, computer screen refrigerators etc). It's all very subjective.

The article said nothing about how the iPad is classified, it was users on this forum started the classification argument.

I thought the article had a way to clear this argument up nicely... "mobile PC"
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post #56 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGNR8 View Post

The article said nothing about how the iPad is classified, it was users on this forum started the classification argument.

I thought the article had a way to clear this argument up nicely... "mobile PC"

1) Calling it a mobile PC is a classification, so the article did classify it.

2) Aren't notebooks mobile PCs, too. I know some are quite large and hard to lug around but they are, by design, mobile with their batteries and collapsing lids.
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post #57 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:40am
To paraphrase a good comment made somewhere the other day:

"Why is an iPad considered a toy, when the most computational power needed by the PC crowd is for playing games?"
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post #58 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHrubik View Post

Classifying any (current)tablet as a computer with it's stripped down OS and reduced functionality is a travesty to the term Personal Computer.


You better give a definition of what you consider Personal Computer. Because the way I look at it, as long as it's for personal use, and it computes, then it's a personal computer.
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post #59 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:43am
"Largest seller of PCs in the world" is FALSE. Apple does not make PC therefore cannot be compare to PC makers like Dell, Sony, HP etc.
In the other this could be good for the consumer since PC price will keep dropping as Apple collect the PC market share.
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post #60 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

To paraphrase a good comment made somewhere the other day:

"Why is an iPad considered a toy, when the most computational power needed by the PC crowd is for playing games?"

I forget which forum member wrote that but I had it in my sig for a couple months.

I think it's said just to disparage the iPad, but those same people will also point out how you can't play "real" games on the iPad either.

You don't see much of that on this forum these days, but go to AnandTech where the homebrew crowd still can't accept Apple in their DIYer world.
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post #61 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHrubik View Post

Classifying any (current)tablet as a computer with it's stripped down OS and reduced functionality is a travesty to the term Personal Computer.

Which era?

The least expensive iPod Touch has many times the capabilities of the personal computers of the 1980-2000 era at a fraction of the cost.

Based on capability, One could say: including a pc in the same category as an iPad is a travesty... there are many things that a pc is just not capable of doing! (and pcs don't run a proper OS or have a proper UI/UX)
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post #62 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShallRemainNameless@live.com View Post

"Largest seller of PCs in the world" is FALSE. Apple does not make PC therefore cannot be compare to PC makers like Dell, Sony, HP etc.
In the other this could be good for the consumer since PC price will keep dropping as Apple collect the PC market share.

In the context of this article, you are incorrect. The term originally was Windows PC to distinguish the Apple personal computer from a Windows personal computer. As Apple over time retained so little of the market, the term Windows PC was contracted by common use to simply PC.
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post #63 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGNR8 View Post

Seriously

The argument to this article is if the iPad is a computer?

Who cares, I mean really... is it that big of a deal if and iPad is or is not a computer?

People are getting insulting because they disagree if an iPad is a computer?

Wow....


It's an "Apple Thing".

The RDF was often deployed by use of subtle redefinitions of words. It worked brilliantly.

But some people now try to show off by redefining words in silly ways, almost like a competition to see who can most twist a word while retaining some sort of specious plausibility. By doing so, mastery of the RDF technique is demonstrated. Those who can twist the furthest and thereby most solidly cement a shibboleth are the winners.

You wouldn't understand. It is an Apple Thing.
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post #64 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) Calling it a mobile PC is a classification, so the article did classify it.

2) Aren't notebooks mobile PCs, too. I know some are quite large and hard to lug around but they are, by design, mobile with their batteries and collapsing lids.

I was responding to :

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Originally Posted by techguy911
Yes, because the entire point of the article is about sales figures based on how the iPad is classified.

Point of the article was not about "article is about sales figures based on how the iPad is classified", it was total sales and how Apple is posed to be the largest PC maker.

People on this forum started an argument about iPad classification as to if it was a PC or not.

My point is who cares about that, lets celebrate Apple products are no longer the source of jokes but rather a dominate force once again.

Notebooks, netbooks, tablets and smart phones are all mobile PC's in my eyes.

I can do more with an iPhone and a BB torch than I could with a Windows 98 and Windows 2000 PC (which was the bench mark for PC's just 10-11 years ago).
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post #65 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Bad analogy imo.

By your definition a laptop would not be a personal computer.

I never stated my definition of a personal computer.

But for the record, by my definition, a PC has most (but not always all) of the following characteristics:

- x86 architecture
- Modular hardware architecture
- High power consumption
- Designed for use with a desktop operating system
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post #66 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:54am
The fact is that in the post PC era, sales of PCs are going to slow and will be taken up by mobile devices such as tablets. This is already happening. The iPad can do nearly everything that a PC can do. Using netbooks today (which are considered PCs) is a terrible experience. The truth is that doing most things is easier and more convenient on something like an iPad for most people. (I'm not discounting Android tablets here BTW, I just haven't used one directly)

So, given that consumer purchases are shifting to non-PC devices, those who look at trends need to determine who is best suited in this new era. That is why they are combining tablets with PC numbers to determine that. I'm not sure they are calling the iPad a PC, but that it offers the same functionality as one and is displacing sales of PCs.
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post #67 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:57am
The concept behind the iPad is still the same as a typical "personal computer", the only difference is the form factors and that there is less emphasis on creation than a typical personal microcomputer. The reason why a lot of people will not be calling it a "PC" is because it is not a typical desktop or notebook machine.

The fact still remains that it is still a personal electronic computer, as its primary function is processing given input data that results in a given output. You would not consider a smart phone a personal computer because its primary function is as a telephone and communications device. Its all about what the device is designed to do as its primary function.

I can buy a Desktop "PC" and not make it a "PC" anymore by changing its primary function from a computing personal data to computing data requested over a network. Suddenly, I have a Server when by the logic of many people in these forums it should still be a personal computer. I'm guessing it'll be because of the form factor.

... at night.

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... at night.

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post #68 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Which era?

The least expensive iPod Touch has many times the capabilities of the personal computers of the 1980-2000 era at a fraction of the cost.

Based on capability, One could say: including a pc in the same category as an iPad is a travesty... there are many things that a pc is just not capable of doing! (and pcs don't run a proper OS or have a proper UI/UX)

You nailed that point! How many PCs can do everything that an iPad can do, none that I know of!!! Perhaps now the term PC can die in respect of something useful.
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post #69 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHrubik View Post

Classifying any (current)tablet as a computer with it's stripped down OS and reduced functionality is a travesty to the term Personal Computer.

Justify that statement.
I continually hear that assertation, and when you drill down, you find that the definition of 'computer' would essentially remove any PC made more than 10 years ago.

What people generally come back with their ultimate definition is that to be a 'computer', you have to be able to program for the device on the device itself.
I don't know where this definition comes from, but I call BS on it.

As for any other features, I can do everything on my iPad that I could do on a '90s PC, and WAY more.

So tell me why its not a computer.
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post #70 of 263
11/21/11 at 8:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

Of course it is a computer.

But it is NOT a PC, as the term is generally used.

And neither is a tablet computer. These categories exist to differentiate and to aid in understanding. If they all overlap to the point of non-differentiation, then they lose utility.

If one were to put two pictures up, one of an iMac and one of an iPad, and we asked test subjects to pick the PC, what sort of results might we expect? And why? Because the terms mean different things, no matter how many similarities between the two things one can identify.

The fact is, both PCs and Tablets are subsets of the concept "computer". But they are different categories nevertheless.

I can't believe you are arguing the term PC. PC is Personal Computer. Is the iPhone personal? is a it a computer? you've got your answer.

You are thinking desktop computer or workstation which the iPad and iPhone aren't, but they all are PCs.

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post #71 of 263
11/21/11 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOROM View Post


So the difference is a webcam and a "pen drive?"


I think that if you consider a webcam to be a pen drive, Logitech would be the biggest manufacturer of pen drives in the world.

Something to consider.

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post #72 of 263
11/21/11 at 9:01am
I think the debate about whether the iPad can be catalogued as a PC or not is of little interest. The real issue is : will it some day replace the PC ? I think yes, except in limited cases (in the same way as mobile computers did not totally replace desktops). The "strategy" consisting in considering that they are no threat to PCs will prove to be a major deadly mistake, for the ones who adopt it. But it is already too late for them ....
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post #73 of 263
11/21/11 at 9:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

And if all he wants to do is to add, subtract, multiply and divide, then the calculator on his keychain is a PC.

And if he someday wants to calculate a square root? Then it is no longer a PC.

At least, that seems to be what your logic leads to...

No. Because I think we can all agree that a PC is not a mono use device.


I think people are getting all jumbled in this argument as to what the goal is- which is to define the appropriate market segment for the iPad.

Smartphones can do a lot of the same basic tasks, but is anyone WANTING to pitch smartphones into the PC category? No. They have their own market segment that people are jockeying for position in.

In the PC market, the goal is general multipurpose computing. The iPad fits that definition. Just because it has a different form factor and use case doesn't make it any less a computer than a laptop is for the same reasons. If the iPad ran OSX proper- would it be a PC then? If so, then aren't we just discussing UI semantics?
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post #74 of 263
11/21/11 at 9:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

I never stated my definition of a personal computer.

But for the record, by my definition, a PC has most (but not always all) of the following characteristics:

- x86 architecture
- Modular hardware architecture
- High power consumption
- Designed for use with a desktop operating system

C'mon... really... you're going with "I never stated my definition...".

What was with the car/motorcycle thing.

A motorcycle can never be a car.

as in

A laptop can never be a desktop.

Do you see how a person could get confused by the logic in your original analogy.
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post #75 of 263
11/21/11 at 9:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tru_canuk View Post

You can't get more Personal than a tablet computer.

...Don't know if the "tablet" format is the most personal... Now, a "Suppository" format -- that'd be personal!
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
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post #76 of 263
11/21/11 at 9:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Yes, something tells me that you actually do use your toaster as a "personal" computer.

Nailed you a troll there, didn't you... Congrats!
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post #77 of 263
11/21/11 at 9:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguy911 View Post

When we refer to "PCs" that's a term for a general purpose computer that can have any OS loaded, unrestricted applications and supports all common devices (keyboard, mouse, printer, scanner, monitor, video capture, webcams, pen drives, etc.).

Here's the main difference: PCs are designed do anything and everything.

Since when is the ability to run any OS a criterion for being a computer? By that definition, an IBM mainframe is not a computer.

And as far as being able to do 'anything and everything',
1) since my iPad can do many things a PC can't, does that mean only iPads are computers?
2) I can point right now to 10,000 granular apps that replace the functionality of general purpose spreadsheets, and do the job far better. Saying that pots aren't pots unless you throw and fire the clay yourself is essentially the argument that's being made here.

The argument about what is and isn't a 'computer' is essentially the digital priesthood crying in the night about their impending loss of power.

Again, show me a canonical definition of 'computer' that isn't more than just a self justifying opinion that takes the attributes of the device I support.
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post #78 of 263
11/21/11 at 9:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

...Don't know if the "tablet" format is the most personal... Now, a "Suppository" format -- that'd be personal!

The problem is that many arguments disconnect the terms PC and personal computer. For many people, the iPad is all the personal computer that they need but it doesn't seem to fit the description of a PC. If this article is about personal computing then the iPad surely qualifies. As a Windows PC it doesn't - thankfully!
Where are we on the curve? We'll know once it goes asymptotic!
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Where are we on the curve? We'll know once it goes asymptotic!
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post #79 of 263
11/21/11 at 9:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHrubik View Post

Classifying any (current)tablet as a computer with it's stripped down OS and reduced functionality is a travesty to the term Personal Computer.

Classification of the device is irrelevant to the point, which is whether the device is cannibalizing sales in the PC market. When people started buying cars instead of horses, it wasn't because they thought the car was a horse.

The real challenge with the "cannibalization" assertion is that there's not any particularly definitive research which shows whether tablets are being treated as supplementing or cannibalizing the PC market.
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post #80 of 263
11/21/11 at 9:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

It's an "Apple Thing".

The RDF was often deployed by use of subtle redefinitions of words. It worked brilliantly.

But some people now try to show off by redefining words in silly ways, almost like a competition to see who can most twist a word while retaining some sort of specious plausibility. By doing so, mastery of the RDF technique is demonstrated. Those who can twist the furthest and thereby most solidly cement a shibboleth are the winners.

You wouldn't understand. It is an Apple Thing.

Interesting since
1) you didn't address the point at hand, and
2) your side is essentially committing the sin you accuse the other of. Redefining words.

Again... show me the definition of 'computer' that excludes the iPad. One that isn't pulled out of a convenient orifice.
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