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Combined Mac, iPad sales to make Apple top global PC vendor in 2012 - Page 3

post #81 of 262
Did anyone actually read the first sentence of the article?
post #82 of 262
deleted due to 2nd thought.
post #83 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

Interesting since
1) you didn't address the point at hand, and
2) your side is essentially committing the sin you accuse the other of. Redefining words.

Again... show me the definition of 'computer' that excludes the iPad. One that isn't pulled out of a convenient orifice.

... or perhaps more accurately, personal computer, which it definitely is.

All the best.
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post #84 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

Since when is the ability to run any OS a criterion for being a computer? By that definition, an IBM mainframe is not a computer.

And as far as being able to do 'anything and everything',
1) since my iPad can do many things a PC can't, does that mean only iPads are computers?
2) I can point right now to 10,000 granular apps that replace the functionality of general purpose spreadsheets, and do the job far better. Saying that pots aren't pots unless you throw and fire the clay yourself is essentially the argument that's being made here.

The argument about what is and isn't a 'computer' is essentially the digital priesthood crying in the night about their impending loss of power.

Again, show me a canonical definition of 'computer' that isn't more than just a self justifying opinion that takes the attributes of the device I support.

Exactly, I would not include an IBM mainframe into the category of the "PC Market". Sure, a mainframe is probably more powerful, but it doesn't perform the same functions.

Just like the iPad is also powerful and has a lot of features, but can't perform as many functions as even the cheapest ultra light netbook. They are simply a different class of devices.
post #85 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguy911 View Post

I think part of the problem is confusion/disagreement over what "computer" and "PC" means. It can be argued that an iPad is a computer and that it's a personal computer.

We need a new term to define what used to be known as a PC (x86/PowerPC laptop, desktop, netbook, etc) instead of arguing over terminology.

Oh... Once we get Windows everywhere... Then a tablet will be a personal computer!

FWIW, I had a personal computer in 1978 that wouldn't qualify in any of the categories you describe...

It predates them all. I parlayed my personal computer into a business and my wife and I retired in 1989, at age 50... pretty damn personal if you ask me.

BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?
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post #86 of 262
I swear to god, Paul Thurott was discussing the reference clunker handed out by MS at the recent dev conference on Twit's Windows Weekly, and said that it was really a computer (as opposed to an iOS 'device') because it had a fan.
post #87 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguy911 View Post

Exactly, I would not include an IBM mainframe into the category of the "PC Market". Sure, a mainframe is probably more powerful, but it doesn't perform the same functions.

Just like the iPad is also powerful and has a lot of features, but can't perform as many functions as even the cheapest ultra light netbook. They are simply a different class of devices.

Don't try to fool me with civility!!


You're still missing the point. If your point is that its not a 'personal' computer, then I question your definition of 'personal'. It doesn't get more 'personal' than an iPad.
If its about functionality, are you saying that if you can find one feature of a previous device that isn't carried forward into a subsequent incarnation, then all definitions stop at that point?
Most of the functionality of a 'personal computer' has become irrelevant to all but a small class of users.
The things that made the PC world-changing have ALL been brought forward into the iPad.
Again, defining 'self programability' as the defining feature of a PC is a self-serving definition, and that's the only differentiation I've heard anyone come up with yet.
post #88 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Oh... Once we get Windows everywhere... Then a tablet will be a personal computer!

FWIW, I had a personal computer in 1978 that wouldn't qualify in any of the categories you describe...

It predates them all. I parlayed my personal computer into a business and my wife and I retired in 1989, at age 50... pretty damn personal if you ask me.

BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?


ROTFLMAO
post #89 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11thIndian View Post

The truth is that the form and function of the PC has changed to service the user in this case.

+ one
post #90 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11thIndian View Post

At the beginning Apple was positioning it between a smartphone and a desktop/laptop, and it REQUIRED you to sync with an existing PC for it to even function.

With "PC Free" in iOS5, I think this distinction becomes even more murky.

And you can't deny that some of this is marketing speak. The term "PC" has a lot of baggage attached to it. It means something complicated and imposing to a large group of people. By positioning it as a "PostPC" product, Apple is hoping to leave a lot of that behind. And in my mind they've succeeded. BOTH my grandparents now have iPads as their ONLY computer, and they're doing everything they would have done on a traditional box with it.

Every PC form factor comes with limitations. An iMac, or ANY laptop aren't as expandable as a tower, but they're still considered PCs (of course).

A PC isn't defined as a device that allows you do to everything, it's a device that allows you to do everything you want to do. For some people, an iPad meets that definition.


Ultimately, the reason why I think iPads should be included into PC marketshare is because someone- albeit a limited sliver of the market, IS buying the iPad as a PC replacement. That being the case- how can it NOT be included in the same category?

Wow... That's the best definition of pc I've seen since Apple coined the term 34 years ago.
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post #91 of 262
While I have enjoyed reading this debate (and ConradJoe hasn't been trolling so stop throwing that word around for anyone with an argument that doesn't align with yours) I noticed one thing that seemed to be glossed over.

If the iPad is now in the PC category why isn't the iPhone?
post #92 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

It's all relative. Had you showed the iPad to someone in 1988 would they have declared that it wasn't a personal computer?

So... in some narrow perception of what is and what isn't a personal computer.... some people still believe that the iPad is not a pc.

Okay... whatever.

The ipad is not a computer very simply:

Apple says it is for a "post-PC" world...

computer that is for post computer world? it the iPad a personal computer, well, not according to its creator at least...

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

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PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

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post #93 of 262
Ahem. Moving on from the semantics... This trend shows another big advantage to Apple of their vertical integration. For every additional unit sold the OS component cost reduces, as the fixed OS development cost is spread out across more and more units, increasing the profit margin on each device sold.
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post #94 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguy911 View Post

Exactly, I would not include an IBM mainframe into the category of the "PC Market". Sure, a mainframe is probably more powerful, but it doesn't perform the same functions.

Just like the iPad is also powerful and has a lot of features, but can't perform as many functions as even the cheapest ultra light netbook. They are simply a different class of devices.

Wrong! Most PCs are in fact, less capable than the iPad, which is why the term PC will go away in respect of describing something useful.
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post #95 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGNR8 View Post

Seriously

The argument to this article is if the iPad is a computer?

Who cares, I mean really... is it that big of a deal if and iPad is or is not a computer?

People are getting insulting because they disagree if an iPad is a computer?

Wow....

How about this then:

The iPad brings personal computing to millions of people who, otherwise, would not have access to these benefits!
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post #96 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I forget which forum member wrote that but I had it in my sig for a couple months.

I think it's said just to disparage the iPad, but those same people will also point out how you can't play "real" games on the iPad either.

You don't see much of that on this forum these days, but go to AnandTech where the homebrew crowd still can't accept Apple in their DIYer world.

Ha! Speak of the devil!
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post #97 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post

If the iPad is now in the PC category why isn't the iPhone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

I would say in many ways not only could someone say the iPad is a personal computer but on many levels the iPhone could also fit into that catagory.

Using 11thIndian's defintion which I think is great, "A PC isn't defined as a device that allows you do to everything, it's a device that allows you to do everything you want to do." I suppose a smartphone or PMP might fit that build, but I doubt that many would consider it a replacement for a standard PC.

Where a user might have used a notebook for casual computing or have been tied to a desktop they are finding the iPad to fit the majority of their PC needs. I've even read about plenty of longtime notebook users going for a desktop for their purchase because the iPad suits their mobile needs sufficiently and in many ways better.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #98 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

The ipad is not a computer very simply:

Apple says it is for a "post-PC" world...

computer that is for post computer world? it the iPad a personal computer, well, not according to its creator at least...

I can't believe people are still struggling with the iPad and I guess there-in lies its success. It is NOT perceived as a computer by millions of people...

... but clearly it is a computer. How can anyone here in this forum dispute that? What do you think is inside an iPad? Attach a mouse (if there was an app) and a keyboard - would that make it more 'computer like'? Of course the iPhone is a computer. What else? A rotary analogue device with a clever facia? How often do you hear mention of a car's 'computer'? Well, it isn't a Dell Tower or iMac mounted someplace out of sight, its micro processor.
post #99 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?

Dick is royalty around here... and this is his first speech from the throne (that we know about anyway).
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post #100 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post

While I have enjoyed reading this debate (and ConradJoe hasn't been trolling so stop throwing that word around for anyone with an argument that doesn't align with yours) I noticed one thing that seemed to be glossed over.

If the iPad is now in the PC category why isn't the iPhone?

I guess the author of the article was not content with Apple being the world's largest company, the largest manufacturer of tablet devices, the manufacturer of the most popular brand of touch screen phones, or the most profitable consumer electronics company in the world. Nope that wasn't enough.

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post #101 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Oh... I thought that we came here specifically to insult each other.

You're really on your game today
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post #102 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by IQatEdo View Post

Wrong! Most PCs are in fact, less capable than the iPad, which is why the term PC will go away in respect of describing something useful.

Oh really, most PCs?. I dare you to name a SINGLE thing an iPad can do that most PCs cannot. And not something stupid like "run iOS" or something iPad specific like Angry Birds. Because I can name hundreds of things a PC can do that an iPad can't.
post #103 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Dick is royalty around here... and this is his first speech from the throne (that we know about anyway).

Surely you suspect that this is not the first time!
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post #104 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Using 11thIndian's defintion which I think is great, "A PC isn't defined as a device that allows you do to everything, it's a device that allows you to do everything you want to do." I suppose a smartphone or PMP might fit that build, but I doubt that many would consider it a replacement for a standard PC.

Where a user might have used a notebook for casual computing or have been tied to a desktop they are finding the iPad to fit the majority of their PC needs. I've even read about plenty of longtime notebook users going for a desktop for their purchase because the iPad suits their mobile needs sufficiently and in many ways better.

Seriously?

My experience with multiple people is that they're ditching everything but a phone and the iPad. Some are "trying" to get me to "repair" their broken PCs... I should say, broken WinXP.

However, due to personal time constraints... and a bit of slyness on my side getting the people to use and learn the iPad... I haven't had anyone "begging" or bothering me to "please fix their PC". Quite the opposite from a few folks: "can you dispose of it for me?".

Turns out that the PC is the truck they don't want or need any longer.

PS. I think that "throne" comment by Dick should be your next sig
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post #105 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguy911 View Post

Oh really, most PCs?. I dare you to name a SINGLE thing an iPad can do that most PCs cannot. And not something stupid like "run iOS" or something iPad specific like Angry Birds. Because I can name hundreds of things a PC can do that an iPad can't.

And command line computers could do a lot more intricate things than simply clicking around the screen. That doesn't mean that command line is overall more effective, efficient, or can do everything that a GUI-based system can do.

There are tasks that make the iPhone better suited than the iPad better suited than the Mac, and in every other possible configuration. As the iPad evolves it's only been around for 1.5 years it will continue to find new ways to do things that the old paradigm couldn't imagine. That's the nature of technology.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #106 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguy911 View Post

Yes, because the entire point of the article is about sales figures based on how the iPad is classified. The same thing happens when you compare Apple to a single other smartphone vendor vs comparing Apple to Android which includes all vendors. If the iPad is included, then that makes things very complicated with what should also be included (other tablets, Kindle's, smartphones, computer screen refrigerators etc). It's all very subjective.

...you forgot the abacus, direction signal and the automatic headlight dimmer...
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post #107 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguy911 View Post

Oh really, most PCs?. I dare you to name a SINGLE thing an iPad can do that most PCs cannot. And not something stupid like "run iOS" or something iPad specific like Angry Birds. Because I can name hundreds of things a PC can do that an iPad can't.

....OK... I'm biting: for example?
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post #108 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguy911 View Post

Oh really, most PCs?. I dare you to name a SINGLE thing an iPad can do that most PCs cannot. And not something stupid like "run iOS" or something iPad specific like Angry Birds. Because I can name hundreds of things a PC can do that an iPad can't.

How about, take it with me and follow my progress in reaching an unfamiliar destination. Not good enough? How about using it to control an unpiloted aerial vehicle simply by holding and moving it? No PC that I've seen can do either of those with the possible exception of a portable equipped with capability extending peripherals. Dare accepted, now go away!
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post #109 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

And command line computers could do a lot more intricate things than simply clicking around the screen. That doesn't mean that command line is overall more effective, efficient, or can do everything that a GUI-based system can do.

I can say that I am one who does use the command line every single day as well as a mouse/pointer based interface.

The PC/tablet argument is just like the the truck/car scenario. Both are vehicles with specific purposes in design. You can commute to work in a truck and carry cargo in a car and there are those SUVs. Are they a car or a truck? Who the hell cares?

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post #110 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

Seriously?

My experience with multiple people is that they're ditching everything but a phone and the iPad. Some are "trying" to get me to "repair" their broken PCs... I should say, broken WinXP.

This site and people I know surely aren't representative but many are stopping having multiple notebooks in the home to just have a single iMac as their powerhouse PC with iPad and iPhone "satellite computing" to take up the rest of their needs.

PS: I took your advice.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #111 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGNR8 View Post

The article said nothing about how the iPad is classified, it was users on this forum started the classification argument.

I thought the article had a way to clear this argument up nicely... "mobile PC"

Actually... How many use a "personal computer" to compute?

compute

com·pute 
 [kuhm-pyoot] Show IPA verb, -put·ed, -put·ing, noun

verb (used with object)
1. to determine by calculation; reckon; calculate: to compute the period of Jupiter's revolution.
2. to determine by using a computer or calculator.

verb (used without object)
3. to reckon; calculate.
4. to use a computer or calculator.
5. Informal . to make sense; add up: His reasons for doing that just don't compute.
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post #112 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExceptionHandler View Post

Lets look at some definitions....

per·son·al com·pu·ter: A microcomputer designed for use by one person at a time

mi·cro·com·pu·ter: A small computer that contains a microprocessor as its central processor

com·put·er: An electronic device for storing and processing data, typically in binary form, according to instructions given to it in a variable program

mi·cro·proc·es·sor: An integrated circuit that contains all the functions of a central processing unit of a computer

A tablet (including the iPad) is or has all these things... so what about it makes it not a computer? The form factor? I didn't see form factor as part of the definition of a computer....

You are totally correct of course. Those wing nuts arguing against the obvious simply have an agenda, they don't want Apple to be the largest ... that's it. It is probably pointless arguing with them.

It also occurs to me they want to include all the old PCs out the running XP that any iPad could wipe the floor with in 'computing' power.
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post #113 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I can say that I am one who does use the command line every single day as well as a mouse/pointer based interface.

The PC/tablet argument is just like the the truck/car scenario. Both are vehicles with specific purposes in design. You can commute to work in a truck and carry cargo in a car and there are those SUVs. Are they a car or a truck? Who the hell cares?

The command line is useful on my iMac too, yes, Macs can do that.

However, just as a truck is not a car and a car is not a truck or SUV or a motorcycle, a PC is not an iPad but an iPad, while it is not a truck, car, SUV or motorcycle, is a PC, in fact, a super-PC (as in super set).
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post #114 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

This site and people I know surely aren't representative but many are stopping having multiple notebooks in the home to just have a single iMac as their powerhouse PC with iPad and iPhone "satellite computing" to take up the rest of their needs.

Actually I have more than a few of those scenarios as well... and there is one guy I can't truthfully move from his Win-Box, due to accounting software. ALTHOUGH, he has a Mac-mini in his future running Fusion or Parallels... he just doesn't know it yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

PS: I took your advice.

I should have been more careful about that suggestion: I have this wretched image in my brain that won't go away and has me ROFL and in tears every time I see it!
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post #115 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by IQatEdo View Post

Unbelievable... it wouldn't matter what I said, typical trolling response! If you actually believe that then what more is there to say? Maybe this, I'll bet you wouldn't consider picking up a smartphone to use for those tasks but an iPad is quite capable of performing them.

So if I disagree with you and point out your contradictions..............then voila! i am a troll because you don't have a better arguement????

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post #116 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

You are totally correct of course. Those wing nuts arguing against the obvious simply have an agenda, they don't want Apple to be the largest ... that's it. It is probably pointless arguing with them.

If that were true then why are people saying that the new definition of PC includes the iPhone as well?

I think for once the actual argument is the argument and all these paranoid thoughts of ulterior motives are unnecessary
post #117 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOROM View Post

Agreed. The term PC has, for many reasons, become increasingly irrelevant.

However, we still have the problem of whether or not we lump tablet computer sales with desktop, laptop and netbook computer sales to come up with a total "personal computer" (NOT Personal Computer") sales figure.

An iPad is much more capable than a PC manufactured in 1999. Should we rename older PCs to no longer be called PCs?

My opinion: if netbooks are included in the total, then tablet computers should be too, as they serve most of the functions of a netbook and are displacing them.

BTW, tablet computer sales always were included in PC sales totals before the iPad came out. Why change now?

Your last point illustrates why those here claiming a tablet isn't a PC are purely motivated by grief at Apple's success.
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Enjoying the new Mac Pro ... it's smokin'
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post #118 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11thIndian View Post

At the beginning Apple was positioning it between a smartphone and a desktop/laptop, and it REQUIRED you to sync with an existing PC for it to even function.


A PC isn't defined as a device that allows you do to everything, it's a device that allows you to do everything you want to do. For some people, an iPad meets that definition.


Sorry, I want to do far more than any "PC" will allow me to do.
I consider all PCs, iPads and the smart in smart phones as nothing other than a PDA. Each of them has there own abilities and restrictions.

Back to the article however, if you add Macs and iPads together Apple is the biggest vendor in a pretty big market. This is impressive no matter how you define it.
post #119 of 262
STOP !

The iPad (or any tablet) MAY not be a PC, but it is a very profitable business for Apple !

... but not for its competitors ...


STOP
post #120 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) Calling it a mobile PC is a classification, so the article did classify it.

2) Aren't notebooks mobile PCs, too. I know some are quite large and hard to lug around but they are, by design, mobile with their batteries and collapsing lids.

Actually, my partner and I lugged an Apple/// (in it's carrying case) down to Boca Raton to give our preso to IBM to be accepted as an IBM/PC reseller.

Funny experience... The IBM executive who interviewed us said that they had really checked us out -- as they were not approving just anyone...

Somehow their research missed the fact that my partner Mark's last name was Wozniak... and that I had worked for IBM for 16 1/2 years -- ending the year before the interview.

We gave the whole preso using a prerelease Apple/// version of Dave Winer's outliner app -- later called "ThinkTank" (I tried to get him to call it "Vista" -- because from the top level headline you could see everything...) +100 for Dave!
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