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Religious Atrocity Vol 1: "We 100% can cure your HIV!"

post #1 of 47
Thread Starter 
http://www.lbc.co.uk/churches-told-d...re-cured-47816

Quote:
There is evidence evangelical churches in London, Manchester, Birmingham and Glasgow are claiming to cure HIV through God.

Sky sent three undercover reporters to the Synagogue Church of All Nations (SCOAN), which is based in Southwark, south London.

All of them told the pastors they were HIV positive - all were told they could be healed.

Once a month, the church has a prayer line, where people from across Europe come to be cured of all kinds of illness.

At registration, they have to hand over a doctor's letter as evidence of their condition.

They are filmed giving before and after testimonies, which are put on SCOAN's website.

The healing process involves the pastor shouting over the person being healed for the devil to come out of their body, while spraying water in their face.

One of the pastors, Rachel Holmes, told Sky's reporter Shatila, who is a genuine HIV sufferer, they had a 100% success rate.

Ms Holmes said: "We have many people that contract HIV. All are healed."

She said, if symptoms such as vomiting or diarrhoea persist, it is actually a sign of the virus leaving the body.

"We've had people come back before saying, 'Oh, I'm not healed. The diarrhoea I had when I had HIV, I've got it again,'" Ms Holmes said.

"I have to stop them and say, 'No, please, you are free.'"

SCOAN told Sky's reporters they would be able to discard their medication after their healing and that they would be free to start a family.


Former health secretary Lord Fowler, who led the HIV/Aids awareness drive in the 1980s, said this message was dangerous.

He said: "It is foolish advice and it is tragic advice because the consequences of this kind of advice can only be that people pass on HIV and can only be seriously bad for the individual concerned - including death."

Medical professionals have told Sky of at least six patients who died after being told by various churches to stop taking their HIV tablets.

Emmanuel came off his medication a year ago on the instructions of a pastor at his church in north London.

He said: "(The pastor) told me I'd been healed - 'You've got to stop taking the medicine now. I'll keep praying for you. Once God forgives you then the disease will definitely go.'"

Emmanuel admitted he suspects he may have passed HIV onto his boyfriend.

He said: "Yeah, I think I've passed it on. He got ill. Physically, he's lost some bit of weight.

"He's very small. I think he's worried... Yeah, I feel guilty, if I'm the one who passed it onto him I'm feeling guilty. Yeah, very much guilty."


The Synagogue Church of All Nations is wealthy. It has branches across the globe and its own TV channel.

On its website, it promotes its anointing water, which is used during the healing, and it also makes money from merchandise, such as DVDs, CDs and books.

Church members are expected to give regular donations.

It is also a registered UK charity. The Charity Commission is looking at our findings.

The Department of Health said it was very concerned: "Our advice is clear that faith and prayer are not a substitute for any form of treatment, especially for HIV treatment."

Sky asked the church for its response to our investigation.

In a statement, it said: "We are not the Healer - God is the Healer. Never a sickness God cannot heal. Never a disease God cannot cure. Never a burden God cannot bear. Never a problem God cannot solve.

"To His power, nothing is impossible. We have not done anything to bring about healing, deliverance or prosperity. If somebody is healed, it is God who heals.

"We must have a genuine desire if we come to God. We are not in position to question anybody's genuine desire. Only God knows if one comes with true desire. Only God can determine this.

"That is why, if anybody comes in the name of God, we pray for them. The outcome of the prayer will determine if they come genuinely or not."

This is what happens when people so strongly believe in magic that they reject rational thought. These deaths and additionally devastated lives of those newly infected as a result of this delusion are not only the fault of this church but also every other religious person who perpetuates the rejection of reason and scientific inquiry. Just because some people arbitrarily draw a line where the magic ends and reality begins short of telling people to stop taking their HIV meds doesn't mean that the line's position is not arbitrary and justifying the existence of such a line paves the way toward this church's behavior.

Those affiliated with the church should be charged with murder for every patient that died as a result of going off the meds. Those affiliated with the church should be charged with assault with a deadly weapon and attempted murder for every victim who got ill from an allegedly cured patient.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #2 of 47
If they fail in God's eyes, they die, seems fair to me, especially considering their actions.

One plus is that this proves there is a God and that healthcare costs can indeed come down.*


*Brought to you by Christ Care Plus. Our moto- "We treat you before you have to".
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #3 of 47
I think we should encourage the Church in culling the dumb flock. We are short on resources on this planet and we don't need to waste them.
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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post #4 of 47
Random drive-by post of the day:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk1owD9y1hc
post #5 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

http://www.lbc.co.uk/churches-told-d...re-cured-47816

This is what happens when people so strongly believe in magic that they reject rational thought.

No this is what happens when you are so far gone you seek out anything to help at the end.

Quote:
These deaths and additionally devastated lives of those newly infected as a result of this delusion are not only the fault of this church but also every other religious person who perpetuates the rejection of reason and scientific inquiry.

That's quite a broad brush there. When it's reversed on you, you become rather irrational and abusive. If I said something like, these rapes at the OWS encampment aren't just the fault of the rapist, but also every other participant who perpetuates the rejection of reality that there is no free lunch in life, and that reason and scientific inquiry have proven this over and over, you'd be rather pissed off.

Throwing out terrible reasoning and illogical statements in the name of science and reason is just....well....really sad.

Quote:
Just because some people arbitrarily draw a line where the magic ends and reality begins short of telling people to stop taking their HIV meds doesn't mean that the line's position is not arbitrary and justifying the existence of such a line paves the way toward this church's behavior.

Have you ever experienced watching someone die of AIDS? First of all you don't die from being HIV+. You die of AIDS. One leads to another and the only variables are the timeline.

Did you buy your vitamin water today? Are you going to sue over it? Pick a week and studies will show one vitamin in high doses providing x benefit while another study will show no benefit and another will claim harm.

Quote:
Those affiliated with the church should be charged with murder for every patient that died as a result of going off the meds. Those affiliated with the church should be charged with assault with a deadly weapon and attempted murder for every victim who got ill from an allegedly cured patient.

You've clearly got to just be trolling at this point. There is no cure for AIDS. You don't die from being HIV+. You carry the virus until some variable in your body allows your t-cells to drop to low, and you get AIDS and die. While modern medicine can throw an array of items at you, most with strange side effects and a host of who knows why they work in some instances and not in others, the result will always be the same with HIV and AIDS. Even with or without meds someone doesn't just contract AIDS in a day or a week. The virus takes time and that is part of why the spread can happen. You look completely normal and healthy while carrying the virus. Some variable, who knows what, manages to get you and your compromised immune system at a certain point and it becomes AIDS. If you are going to sue for this, then sue every company or person the planet who has ever engaged in telling someone they can get skinny by exercising only their abs, or going on some fad diet. People believe as they want and act on it. They are individually responsible for themselves.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #6 of 47
Another blatant attack on all religion and religious persons. It's bigotry, plain and simple.
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #7 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Another blatant attack on all religion and religious persons. It's bigotry, plain and simple.

And if it was a Mosque or a sub-sect of Islam that was peddling this garbage, you would most probably be agreeing wholeheartedly with the poster.

Pot, Kettle.

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #8 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Another blatant attack on all religion and religious persons. It's bigotry, plain and simple.

This is bigotry calling out a CHURCH telling AIDS PATIENTS to STOP TAKING THEIR MEDICINE because they will be 100% CURED THROUGH PRAYER? Are you FUCKING KIDDING ME? You see nothing wrong with what the church here did? You see nothing dangerous, vile, and awful about this?

You could have video of a priest shooting puppies and I'm sure you'd find some way to defend it. You sicken me.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #9 of 47
You people KNOW that BR is spot-on with this one.

If some organization is telling people with AIDS that they have cured them, and they can resume a "normal" lifestyle without risk of infecting others, then that organization is actively and intentionally (if not maliciously) putting others at risk.

We can debate how much of the "congregation" should be held responsible, but certainly the people actually saying "you're cured" should be looked at as possibly criminal.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #10 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

This is bigotry calling out a CHURCH telling AIDS PATIENTS to STOP TAKING THEIR MEDICINE because they will be 100% CURED THROUGH PRAYER? Are you FooKING KIDDING ME? You see nothing wrong with what the church here did? You see nothing dangerous, vile, and awful about this?

You could have video of a priest shooting puppies and I'm sure you'd find some way to defend it. You sicken me.

This is 100% dangerous activity by this Church. They should not tell the person to stop taking anything or to resume any kind of activity without first checking with their doctors and getting a clean bill of health. Even Jesus after healing a leper had the healed man present himself to the Priest to show himself clean in Mark 1 42-44. There is nothing wrong with verification, G-d understands the need to be safe just as well as we do. BR, I agree with your anger on this. The church should verify that it is correct in its assumptions of healing. It is only right. Otherwise you are playing with peoples safety and well-being.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #11 of 47
Thread Starter 
I'm glad that we have at least one Christian here denouncing this awful church.

But Noah, do you have a problem with telling them to go off the meds and submit to "prayer healing" in the first place? It's unclear from your response here.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #12 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I'm glad that we have at least one Christian here denouncing this awful church.

But Noah, do you have a problem with telling them to go off the meds and submit to "prayer healing" in the first place? It's unclear from your response here.

I have no problem with them praying for healing. And if they are healed, I have no problem with them going off their meds. The important part being, that they verify that they are indeed healed first. Anything less is simply not acceptable.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #13 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I have no problem with them praying for healing. And if they are healed, I have no problem with them going off their meds. The important part being, that they verify that they are indeed healed first. Anything less is simply not acceptable.

Which comes first? The going off their meds or the prayers? Also, even if someone has an undetectable viral load, from what I understand, doctors do not have those patients go off their meds as the virus may still be present but at a very small concentration. Given this information, do you still think it's OK for them to go off the meds with an undetectable viral load?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #14 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Which comes first? The going off their meds or the prayers? Also, even if someone has an undetectable viral load, from what I understand, doctors do not have those patients go off their meds as the virus may still be present but at a very small concentration. Given this information, do you still think it's OK for them to go off the meds with an undetectable viral load?

My post was not unclear. Please stop trying to find fault in what I am saying. Either you are healed or you are not. If they have a clear case of HIV or AIDS, they go in to be prayed for and at their next visit they are shown to be clean of the disease then I would say that there should be a time period where they would ensure that they are clean and then they can go off their meds. I don't know what that time period is, maybe 6 months, maybe less, maybe more. My question is, what effect would taking HIV medicines have on an otherwise healthy person?

And as for sexual or risky activities, they should be clean for probably 6 months to a year before they consider engaging in any activity unprotected. If they remain clear for that time then I would say that they are healed and should be free to act in the same manner as any other healthy person taking the necessary precautions that any other person would to remain clean and healthy.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #15 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

And if it was a Mosque or a sub-sect of Islam that was peddling this garbage, you would most probably be agreeing wholeheartedly with the poster.

Pot, Kettle.


Agree with what? That the small group or Mosque represents all of Islam? That all Muslims believe in a fantasy? Or maybe that all Muslims are dangerous? Maybe I could call for other Muslims to preemptively denounce this church; then indict them if they didn't?

Weak, sammi. Weak. And your unprovoked personal attack is noted.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

This is bigotry calling out a CHURCH telling AIDS PATIENTS to STOP TAKING THEIR MEDICINE because they will be 100% CURED THROUGH PRAYER? Are you ******* KIDDING ME? You see nothing wrong with what the church here did? You see nothing dangerous, vile, and awful about this?

You could have video of a priest shooting puppies and I'm sure you'd find some way to defend it. You sicken me.

That's pretty low, even for you. You're so blinded by hatred of religion and Christianity in particular that you cannot even acknowledge what and whom you are attacking. In fact, when your bigotry is pointed out, you simply counter with a new, intellectually dishonest attack.

Anyone who is not so out-of-his-mind-hateful and angry can realize I was not defending anything. At no time did I defend this church or its nutbag practices. What do take issue with is this:

Quote:
Originally posted by BR:

This is what happens when people so strongly believe in magic that they reject rational thought. These deaths and additionally devastated lives of those newly infected as a result of this delusion are not only the fault of this church but also every other religious person who perpetuates the rejection of reason and scientific inquiry.

So tell me, BR...are you ******* kidding ME?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #16 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Agree with what? That the small group or Mosque represents all of Islam? That all Muslims believe in a fantasy? Or maybe that all Muslims are dangerous? Maybe I could call for other Muslims to preemptively denounce this church; then indict them if they didn't?

As far as I know, you agree with the mass racial profiling (in other words suspension of civil and human rights) of Muslims because of what a small, tiny subset of them did. Sammi has a point.

And BR, Noah has been right here, from his perspective. I know what you're trying to say, that by not crying outrage himself when things like this are done by the religious, he's being complicit, and I agree with that, but make that point clear, instead of attacking him personally.
post #17 of 47
Thread Starter 
Actually, tonton, I'm trying to see if he thinks it is OK to prescribe prayer healing over proven modern medicine. From what he was saying, it seems as if he believes that it is indeed OK to do so but draws the line at verifying the results with modern medical techniques before declaring a clean bill of health. He further demonstrates his ignorance of realities of HIV by saying it is OK for someone to go off their meds without being under the direct supervision and tight monitoring of a doctor. Trying to understand where someone draws a line is not and never will be a personal attack.

As far as SDW is concerned, there is absolutely nothing hateful about calling out people who undermine the march of scientific progress and pose risks to public safety. The anti-vaccine crowd is directly harming the public through limiting our herd immunity. Those who don't take a strong stance one way or another but demand everyone's opinions be treated with sacred respect are part of the problem--they create a protective environment for the anti-vaccine nuts and elevate their misinformed and ignorant opinions to the same status as those who spend their lives truly understanding the science involved.

The same applies to religious people who jump immediately to the "I'm offended" card (like you, all the fucking time). You create a protective environment for these nuts to operate and hoodwink desperate individuals into giving their money and lives to the church. You create a protective environment that allows for the church to effectively spread a deadly illness and escape responsibility.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #18 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Actually, tonton, I'm trying to see if he thinks it is OK to prescribe prayer healing over proven modern medicine. From what he was saying, it seems as if he believes that it is indeed OK to do so but draws the line at verifying the results with modern medical techniques before declaring a clean bill of health. He further demonstrates his ignorance of realities of HIV by saying it is OK for someone to go off their meds without being under the direct supervision and tight monitoring of a doctor. Trying to understand where someone draws a line is not and never will be a personal attack.

As far as SDW is concerned, there is absolutely nothing hateful about calling out people who undermine the march of scientific progress and pose risks to public safety. The anti-vaccine crowd is directly harming the public through limiting our herd immunity. Those who don't take a strong stance one way or another but demand everyone's opinions be treated with sacred respect are part of the problem--they create a protective environment for the anti-vaccine nuts and elevate their misinformed and ignorant opinions to the same status as those who spend their lives truly understanding the science involved.

The same applies to religious people who jump immediately to the "I'm offended" card (like you, all the fucking time). You create a protective environment for these nuts to operate and hoodwink desperate individuals into giving their money and lives to the church. You create a protective environment that allows for the church to effectively spread a deadly illness and escape responsibility.

Ok, I'm done. Enjoy.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #19 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Ok, I'm done. Enjoy.

That's surely demonstrating a mature confidence in your beliefs.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #20 of 47
I think I'm gonna try to contract HIV tonight and go to these people.
post #21 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by linkgx1 View Post

I think I'm gonna try to contract HIV tonight and go to these people.

You could just pray that children listen to their parents, stay celibate, never rebel or become curious, and don't need sex education or condoms, like they do in Texas and Wasilla.
post #22 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

That's surely demonstrating a mature confidence in your beliefs.

Actually it is demonstrating self respect. I don't need to be involved in a conversation where my worth and intelligence are basically called into question and spat upon. Saying that someone is ignorant of reality is indeed a personal attack, no matter how many ways you try to pretend it is not. I am confident in my beliefs, I put them out there, you trampled them and kicked me in the groin for good measure. I don't have to take your abuse to show maturity, me not calling you the derogatory names you call others who do the same to you shows maturity.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #23 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Actually it is demonstrating self respect. I don't need to be involved in a conversation where my worth and intelligence are basically called into question and spat upon. Saying that someone is ignorant of reality is indeed a personal attack, no matter how many ways you try to pretend it is not. I am confident in my beliefs, I put them out there, you trampled them and kicked me in the groin for good measure. I don't have to take your abuse to show maturity, me not calling you the derogatory names you call others who do the same to you shows maturity.

Well, clarify your position for me and show me where I'm misinterpreting it.

1) Do you think that it's OK to go off HIV meds without the close supervision of a medical professional?

2) Do you think that it's OK to use prayer healing as a primary means of HIV treatment?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #24 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Well, clarify your position for me and show me where I'm misinterpreting it.

1) Do you think that it's OK to go off HIV meds without the close supervision of a medical professional?

2) Do you think that it's OK to use prayer healing as a primary means of HIV treatment?

1) No, and i have stated that already. However, there is window of time where you can know that you are healed. After that time period you should be able to move on. A good doctor will be able to tell you for sure what that window is.

2) No, and not one of my posts stated that it should be. However it could be the final treatment and once verified could preclude the need for further treatment.

Don't ask me any more questions, they will not be answered.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #25 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Don't ask me any more questions, they will not be answered.

Busy as hell today but...wow...snippy, snippy.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #26 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

As far as I know, you agree with the mass racial profiling (in other words suspension of civil and human rights) of Muslims because of what a small, tiny subset of them did. Sammi has a point.

I support racial profiling to a point. It cannot be the sole factor or even the main one, but it should absolutely be ONE factor in preventing terrorism. That doesn't mean I blame all Muslims for extremists and nutjobs within their ranks.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #27 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Actually, tonton, I'm trying to see if he thinks it is OK to prescribe prayer healing over proven modern medicine. From what he was saying, it seems as if he believes that it is indeed OK to do so but draws the line at verifying the results with modern medical techniques before declaring a clean bill of health. He further demonstrates his ignorance of realities of HIV by saying it is OK for someone to go off their meds without being under the direct supervision and tight monitoring of a doctor. Trying to understand where someone draws a line is not and never will be a personal attack.

As far as SDW is concerned, there is absolutely nothing hateful about calling out people who undermine the march of scientific progress and pose risks to public safety.

You are not calling out only those people. You posted this:

Quote:
This is what happens when people so strongly believe in magic that they reject rational thought. These deaths and additionally devastated lives of those newly infected as a result of this delusion are not only the fault of this church but also every other religious person who perpetuates the rejection of reason and scientific inquiry.

Care to backpedal some more?

Quote:

The anti-vaccine crowd is directly harming the public through limiting our herd immunity.

That's debatable, but at least it's a decent point.

Quote:
Those who don't take a strong stance one way or another but demand everyone's opinions be treated with sacred respect are part of the problem--they create a protective environment for the anti-vaccine nuts and elevate their misinformed and ignorant opinions to the same status as those who spend their lives truly understanding the science involved.

I don't agree with that. I'm not an anti-vaccine person, but they do have some legitimate concerns that are not all based on religion. I knew a couple who were chiropractors that, from their "medical" point of view, didn't think it was needed. Still others have concerns about other medical conditions that may, in rare cases, come from vaccines. The evidence does not show a conclusive link. However, there is SOME evidence showing it's possible. Either way, unless we're talking about highly communicable and incurable diseases, it should be up to the parents to make the decision. You can disagree with their conclusions (and I do), but to claim they are killing everyone around them and too stupid to exist is a bit much.

Quote:


The same applies to religious people who jump immediately to the "I'm offended" card (like you, all the fucking time). You create a protective environment for these nuts to operate and hoodwink desperate individuals into giving their money and lives to the church. You create a protective environment that allows for the church to effectively spread a deadly illness and escape responsibility.

It would be hard not to be offended when someone conducts himself as you do. Not only do you ruthlessly attack my beliefs and the beliefs of not only the religious but those that believe in God, but you call anyone with whom you disagree stupid. Every time.
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post #28 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Saying that someone is ignorant of reality is indeed a personal attack

You believe in Santa Clause. (OK, "God"... but it's EXACTLY the same thing.)

How is that NOT ignorance???

In some cases, calling a person "ignorant" is not a personal attack, but simply the truth.
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post #29 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

You believe in Santa Clause. (OK, "God"... but it's EXACTLY the same thing.)

How is that NOT ignorance???

In some cases, calling a person "ignorant" is not a personal attack, but simply the truth.

Calling him ignorant requires us to presume that you know the truth, and he doesn't. This is not the case. You simply have different views. You've concluded there is no God based on your observations and the lack of empirical evidence. He has concluded there is a God based on his observations and other, non-empirical types of evidence (surely you understand that not all evidence is empirical?).

Now, you free to think Noah is nuts...to disagree with his conclusion and argue God's existence if you both choose to engage in that debate. However, when you call him ignorant simply because you disagree...when you call people stupid because they have arrived at different conclusions than you...you really show how closed-minded, myopic and arrogant you are.

Imagine if we all debated issues the way you, BR and tonton debate God's existence. It would result in someone being called "ignorant" because he didn't share another man's views on say, why he was attracted to blondes instead of brunettes, or why he liked blue more than green. That's the level of ridiculousness we're approaching here.
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post #30 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

You believe in Santa Clause. (OK, "God"... but it's EXACTLY the same thing.)

How is that NOT ignorance???

In some cases, calling a person "ignorant" is not a personal attack, but simply the truth.

You've died an know what's beyond?
post #31 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


Imagine if we all debated issues the way you, BR and tonton debate God's existence. It would result in someone being called "ignorant" because he didn't share another man's views on say, why he was attracted to blondes instead of brunettes, or why he liked blue more than green. That's the level of ridiculousness we're approaching here.

The existence of a god is not a matter of taste or personal preference.
No one is arguing whether blonde exists as a hair color. Or whether blue or green exists.
I can explain to you the genetics behind hair color... I can explain to you and give the exact wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation that are defined as "blue light".

I'm not debating which flavor of god is preferred by any one person. I'm stating that god just doesn't exist. If you believe god exists (as it is peddled in the various religious texts created by humans), you need to support that assertion or anyone who actually puts any THOUGHT into it will assume you are delusional.

Is it possible there is a "god"? ... Sure, it's a POSSIBILITY. (Though every time we look into anything at has been attributed to "god", we end up finding that there is a perfectly natural explanation that doesn't require deviation from the natural laws of physics... We often enhance and sometimes adjust our understanding of nature through such inquiries, but never has a god been necessary to explain the way things work, except as an excuse to stop searching for the truth.)

Does any god meddle in the affairs of earth/humanity? ... NO.
I can say no with conviction, because there is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER to support the assertion of a god that cares about humans, empirical or otherwise.

If you CHOOSE to be ignorant of how the world around you functions, then don't be offended when people call you out for believing in fairy tales.
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post #32 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

The existence of a god is not a matter of taste or personal preference.

Yes, it is.

Quote:
No one is arguing whether blonde exists as a hair color. Or whether blue or green exists.
I can explain to you the genetics behind hair color... I can explain to you and give the exact wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation that are defined as "blue light".

Good for you.

Quote:

I'm not debating which flavor of god is preferred by any one person. I'm stating that god just doesn't exist.

That's fine.

Quote:
If you believe god exists (as it is peddled in the various religious texts created by humans), you need to support that assertion or anyone who actually puts any THOUGHT into it will assume you are delusional.

1. I need prove nothing to you. I need support my conclusions re: God to no one but myself.

2. My conclusion that God exists is not one I've arrived at blindly, as if I chose to believe in the aforementioned Santa Claus. A child who believes in Santa Claus does not search for truth, does not question and ponder the existence of Santa Claus. No so with God. Your ignorant and arrogant presumption is that all people who believe in God do so without any critical thought whatsoever. In fact, every Christian I know has questioned his faith at some point, questioned whether God exists, searched for proof, meaning and truth.

3. "Putting thought into it..." Are you saying that every person on Earth who believes in God is non-thinker?

Quote:

Is it possible there is a "god"? ... Sure, it's a POSSIBILITY. (Though every time we look into anything at has been attributed to "god", we end up finding that there is a perfectly natural explanation that doesn't require deviation from the natural laws of physics...

That is simply false. There are many events we cannot explain through the laws of physics.

Quote:

We often enhance and sometimes adjust our understanding of nature through such inquiries, but never has a god been necessary to explain the way things work,

So?

Quote:
except as an excuse to stop searching for the truth.)

I would argue that the search for God IS the search for truth.

Quote:


Does any god meddle in the affairs of earth/humanity? ... NO.
I can say no with conviction, because there is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER to support the assertion of a god that cares about humans, empirical or otherwise.

You're only using empirical evidence. You can't even consider other types.

Quote:

If you CHOOSE to be ignorant of how the world around you functions, then don't be offended when people call you out for believing in fairy tales.

I am not ignorant of how the world functions, nor are the vast majority of people that believe in God. Here again, your arrogant and ignorant presumption is that those who believe in God reject science. There may be some who do, but I and millions of others are not part of that group. I embrace science. But science cannot answer "why?" Science cannot explain the vastness and perfection of the universe. Science cannot tell us about the metaphysical...the soul, the purpose of one's life. Science cannot explain all. It is the beginning of wisdom, not the end.

Funny enough, you remind me of the TV show "V" that was on last year. At one point, the alien queen Anna decides that the only way to defeat humanity is to find and destroy the human soul. To do that, she subjects a human to all of the ultra-advanced alien technology. But she cannot understand that the soul cannot be seen, or heard, or described in the language of science. One can't measure the soul with a ruler, or scale, or magnetic resonance imaging.
I think we should rename you "Anna," come to think of it.
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post #33 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Yes, it is.



Good for you.



That's fine.



1. I need prove nothing to you. I need support my conclusions re: God to no one but myself.

2. My conclusion that God exists is not one I've arrived at blindly, as if I chose to believe in the aforementioned Santa Claus. A child who believes in Santa Claus does not search for truth, does not question and ponder the existence of Santa Claus. No so with God. Your ignorant and arrogant presumption is that all people who believe in God do so without any critical thought whatsoever. In fact, every Christian I know has questioned his faith at some point, questioned whether God exists, searched for proof, meaning and truth.

3. "Putting thought into it..." Are you saying that every person on Earth who believes in God is non-thinker?



That is simply false. There are many events we cannot explain through the laws of physics.



So?



I would argue that the search for God IS the search for truth.



You're only using empirical evidence. You can't even consider other types.



I am not ignorant of how the world functions, nor are the vast majority of people that believe in God. Here again, your arrogant and ignorant presumption is that those who believe in God reject science. There may be some who do, but I and millions of others are not part of that group. I embrace science. But science cannot answer "why?" Science cannot explain the vastness and perfection of the universe. Science cannot tell us about the metaphysical...the soul, the purpose of one's life. Science cannot explain all. It is the beginning of wisdom, not the end.

Funny enough, you remind me of the TV show "V" that was on last year. At one point, the alien queen Anna decides that the only way to defeat humanity is to find and destroy the human soul. To do that, she subjects a human to all of the ultra-advanced alien technology. But she cannot understand that the soul cannot be seen, or heard, or described in the language of science. One can't measure the soul with a ruler, or scale, or magnetic resonance imaging.
I think we should rename you "Anna," come to think of it.

Don't think badly of me, but i just read your first response to BR and couldn't help but chip in on that poi t, as I shouldn't be here ie it's a bit naughty of me given i'm swamped in reality.

So, personal choice...i read it and was startled it was even by someone who has the "christian God"... (you catch my drift)...

In some ways i suppose your right, but i really don't see it as a choice. I see it as fact, fact that science doesnt get. It's likes giving a child a gun. ( sorry not a good analogy, a bit lost in this in someways, but truth, ultimate truth is no choice, it's beyond real.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

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post #34 of 47
Who says they didn't cure HIV. Where's the evidence? Lets see a list of people who have gone to them and then died from HIV.
post #35 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

1. I need prove nothing to you. I need support my conclusions re: God to no one but myself.

2. My conclusion that God exists is not one I've arrived at blindly, as if I chose to believe in the aforementioned Santa Claus. A child who believes in Santa Claus does not search for truth, does not question and ponder the existence of Santa Claus. No so with God. Your ignorant and arrogant presumption is that all people who believe in God do so without any critical thought whatsoever. In fact, every Christian I know has questioned his faith at some point, questioned whether God exists, searched for proof, meaning and truth.

3. "Putting thought into it..." Are you saying that every person on Earth who believes in God is non-thinker?

People compartmentalize. They can be smart and rational in some aspects of their lives and completely clueless and superstitious in others. Adequately define god in a falsifiable fashion and then we can talk about proving its existence. But like it or not, the burden of proof is squarely on you who makes the assertion that an invisible sky daddy exists.


Quote:
That is simply false. There are many events we cannot explain through the laws of physics.

And unexplained events do not imply or prove the existence of your Israelite war god. What you seem to be implying here is a god of the gaps. Isn't it wonderful how the more we learn, the more your silly idea of a god shrinks?


Quote:
I would argue that the search for God IS the search for truth.

And fail horribly. What an awful argument.



Quote:
You're only using empirical evidence. You can't even consider other types.

What evidence do you have for your god? Please do share.


Quote:
I am not ignorant of how the world functions,

That's not really coming across through your writing here.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #36 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

That is simply false. There are many events we cannot explain through the laws of physics.

A couple of hundred years ago, physicists couldn't explain how the sun worked. Who's to say they will never understand these un-cited phenomena?
post #37 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

People compartmentalize. They can be smart and rational in some aspects of their lives and completely clueless and superstitious in others. Adequately define god in a falsifiable fashion and then we can talk about proving its existence. But like it or not, the burden of proof is squarely on you who makes the assertion that an invisible sky daddy exists.

I'm not making an assertion.

Quote:



And unexplained events do not imply or prove the existence of your Israelite war god. What you seem to be implying here is a god of the gaps. Isn't it wonderful how the more we learn, the more your silly idea of a god shrinks?

I am implying nothing. I am certainly not arguing that "gaps" are "proof" of God. I am merely saying that the laws of science do not explain "everything" as Kingofsomewherebigoted seemed to suggest.

Quote:

And fail horribly. What an awful argument.

Why? Because you say so? What an awful argument.

Quote:


What evidence do you have for your god? Please do share.

Offering evidence to you would be futile. First, it's not evidence you would accept, because it's not scientific. Secondly, offering evidence would only reinforce your delusion that I am trying to convince you of God's existence, which I'm not.

Quote:

That's not really coming across through your writing here.

What specifically gives you that impression?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Conrail View Post

A couple of hundred years ago, physicists couldn't explain how the sun worked. Who's to say they will never understand these un-cited phenomena?

See above. I am not arguing that gaps in knowledge are proof of God.
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post #38 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I'm not making an assertion.

Bullshit, yes you do.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/assertion

Quote:
a positive statement or declaration, often without support or reason

You clearly are making a positive statement in favor of the existence of a deity. That is what is called an assertion. It is your job to support it. If you refuse to, you have no right to expect not to be ridiculed for your shitty, stupid, ridiculous, unsupported belief.

What is this evidence that you claim is not scientific? Believing EXTRA-SUPER-DUPER-HARD? Wishful thinking isn't evidence. Now, if you actually do have evidence, please, share it. I do have a track record of reevaluating my positions based on new evidence.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #39 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Bullshit, yes you do.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/assertion


You clearly are making a positive statement in favor of the existence of a deity. That is what is called an assertion. It is your job to support it. If you refuse to, you have no right to expect not to be ridiculed for your shitty, stupid, ridiculous, unsupported belief.

An assertion would be simply "God exists." But that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that based on my experiences and thoughts on the issue, I BELIEVE God exists. By contrast, you are free to believe I'm crazy. What I take issue with is your behavior on the boards. It is not your right to run around personally attacking every poster with whom you disagree on this issue, particularly when the thread in question has nothing to do with religion. What you are basically doing is dismissing ANY and ALL opinions of the 6 Billion people on earth that believe in God. Let me state that again...any and ALL opinions, including those that have nothing to do with this issue. It's like you think you've found some magic bullet for winning arguments on AI. In reality, you've just found a way to look like a total jackass.

Quote:

What is this evidence that you claim is not scientific? Believing EXTRA-SUPER-DUPER-HARD? Wishful thinking isn't evidence. Now, if you actually do have evidence, please, share it. I do have a track record of reevaluating my positions based on new evidence.

My evidence is much more than wishful thinking. I've had personal experiences over the years, as have my family and friends. I won't present them here for two reasons 1) They are quite personal and are things I'd rather keep to myself and 2) As much as you claim otherwise, you are the furthest thing from open-minded. Your biased view will ensure that you attack each experience and try to "explain" it in your narrow-minded terms. It's really a waste of time.
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post #40 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


I am implying nothing. I am certainly not arguing that "gaps" are "proof" of God. I am merely saying that the laws of science do not explain "everything" as Kingofsomewherebigoted seemed to suggest.

I have not asserted that we have explained "everything" scientifically ... there will always be more to research and discover.
What I DID say, is that EVERY time we look into some phenomena long enough to find an answer... that answer has NEVER been "God." So as time moves on, and our knowledge base increases, we find that the idea of a god is responsible for less and less of our world...

Just because millions of people around the world profess to believe in a god does NOT mean that (or any) god exists. That you would thinks so shows a fundamental flaw in your ability to reason.
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