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North Carolina locals question benefits of Apple's $1 billion server farm - Page 7

post #241 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugzy View Post

We invaded a sovereign nation that did nothing to us

Is it ok if somebody fires some missiles at your house? You seem to be ok with that, based upon your unique definition of "nothing".

You should read up on the history of that war and you'll find out that your claim of "nothing" is completely false and wrong.
post #242 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Well, sometimes war is necessary and a useless stimulus is not.

Sometimes. But not this time. This time it was a colossal waste of soldiers lives and trillions of dollars. And it is a large part of the reason bush took a budget surplus and turned it into a massive debt.
post #243 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings View Post

"According to the report, local authorities have discounted property taxes by 50 percent and personal taxes by 85 percent."

If THAT'S not a major benefit to everyone there, I don't know what is. Please Apple, come build a plant in my town. I wouldn't care if I work there or not if it means I'll get my property taxes chopped in half.

Do you live there? Apple and its' employees received the tax cuts, not the local residents. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

 

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete...

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Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

 

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post #244 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by freediverx View Post

Yes, and never mind the fact that those taxes are needed to pay for education, among other things, directly impacting the reason why there aren't more local people qualified to apply for Apple's higher paying jobs.

I'll bet that even after the tax breaks Apple pays a lot more in taxes than the land generated previously.

Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

 

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete...

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Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

 

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post #245 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

Only thing bush did wrong was not take the country over, make them employees to Exxon, and drain that country dry. We'd payem a fair wage and they'd have better lifestyles than they do now. Hell- spend all that $ on a war, get it back in oil plus some. Don't let those dumb shieks get another gold (literally) Mercedes.

Half kidding- kind of. No lectures please. I realize this would likely never happen.

In my opinion it's too soon for jokes. And if you're serious you're crazy.
post #246 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

That local newspaper article appears to be rational, considered and objective...

Seems that it might have a been a better source for the AI article... than the Washington Post article where 3 semi-negative (or neutral) opinions were conflated into a negative article.


Hickory Daily Record: "Apple data center brings 300 jobs to Maiden"

vs

Washington Post: "Cloud centers bring high-tech flash but not many jobs to beaten-down towns"


Interesting to note how North Carolina unemployment compares with other states:

List of U.S. states by unemployment rate



Mmmm... We here in California certainly could use that additional $4.6 million annual tax revenue!


I recon it looks like everyone in North Carolina should mozy on over to Illinois.
post #247 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings View Post

"According to the report, local authorities have discounted property taxes by 50 percent and personal taxes by 85 percent."

If THAT'S not a major benefit to everyone there, I don't know what is. Please Apple, come build a plant in my town. I wouldn't care if I work there or not if it means I'll get my property taxes chopped in half.

I think the tax break only applies to Apple. I am not sure the town is thinking this through. Even at 50% off they are still taking in a lot more tax revenue than they were getting for the empty land (That was probably zoned agriculturally and generating almost no revenue at all).

100% of $20,000 is $20,000. 50% of $1,000,000 is $500,000. How anyone can use percentages in a news story is beyond me.
post #248 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by freediverx View Post

I agree that it makes no sense for Apple to hire additional people they don't need. However, as it often happens, local politicians granted Apple ridiculous tax breaks in exchange for... what, exactly?

This is the same old story that has played itself out at both the local and national level. Politicians and their corporate sponsors push the idea that businesses must be given tax breaks in order to create more jobs, except there's absolutely no strings attached that they actually do so, so it's nothing but corporate welfare. When new jobs are actually created they're usually small in number, low paying and in no way tied to whatever tax breaks the corporation received.

Considering Apple is one of (if not the) largest and most profitable companies on the planet, you have to wonder why they need any tax breaks or loopholes when there's no payback in exchange. Now I'm a huge Apple fan and I don't think they're doing anything wrong - as a business they're trying to minimize costs and maximize profits - but this is a fine example of why this tired old story needs to be put to rest and corporate welfare needs to end immediately.


You are just very confused about what a tax break is. Land that was generating thousands of dollars in tax revenue is now generating millions of dollars of tax revenue (even after the break). There is a payback, a huge one. This was not charity for apple, it was a discount (you know a break) on what the taxes were to incent Apple to build there instead of somewhere else. The town is still taking in massive amount of new property tax revenue...
post #249 of 289
Just reading the story and skim read some of the replies here......... speechless.
post #250 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamC View Post

... these people should read Atlas Shrugged. ...

Why should anyone read a utopian fantasy based on premises completely at odds with all reality, including human nature? It's not like Rand had any talent as a writer, or a philosopher. Atlas Shrugged is, like all of Rand's thought and writings, a piece of trash.
post #251 of 289
I did not read all 250 or so posts so maybe someone already said something like this but perhaps what is really going on here is that some politician is getting people amped up in order to boost his own prominence in popular awareness and using the single biggest media-attention getting option in his jurisdiction to do so.
post #252 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksec View Post

Just reading the story and skim read some of the replies here......... speechless.

Right off the rails on page 5.
post #253 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by echosonic View Post

This was the quote you could have stopped on. It isn't true. Liberalism has one idea, and one idea only: Take more money from those who earn it and spend it on whatever we deem to be the need.

Absolutely, totally, 100% wrong. Perhaps you should learn something about a political ideology before attacking it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugzy View Post

Liberalism or Progressivism is not about all about "new ideas", it is OPEN to new ideas (the antithesis of true conservatism). It is more about that the role of government is to protect the rights of the citizens. (also apparently the antithesis of conservatives who seem very concerned about how I spend my time in the privacy of my own home. Conservatives also seem to spend a great deal of time thinking about the gays for some reason. Wonder why they are so obsessed? )

Much closer to the mark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronstark View Post

Oh my. Maiden, NC is "unhappy"? This is the kind of thinking that got us in the financial mess we are in right now. There is no entitlement clause with the data center is there?

Maiden, NC isn't unhappy. The author managed to find a few poor, deluded individuals who apparently thought that Apple's data center was going to make them rich and when it didn't happen, they went off whining to the press.

I suspect that Maiden business owners are pretty happy overall. Maiden construction workers are probably pretty happy. Maiden city officials are undoubtedly happy with millions in new tax revenues.

No doubt, poor, uneducated Jud who expected that Apple would give him a $200,000 job as VP of sitting around is unhappy. That doesn't mean that it was a bad move for Apple OR for Maiden.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Is it ok if somebody fires some missiles at your house? You seem to be ok with that, based upon your unique definition of "nothing".

You should read up on the history of that war and you'll find out that your claim of "nothing" is completely false and wrong.

Well, it would be interesting to see where Iraq fired a missile at your house. Or Afghanistan, for that matter.

A few terrorists did some horrible things. How does that make the government of a country where the terrorists didn't even live guilty?
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post #254 of 289
What? How many jobs did they think would be created? I guess they have no comprehension of how few people it takes to run a properly designed data center. 50 people is quite impressively large. Of course there were construction jobs to build the place, but of course, like all construction, those are temporary.
post #255 of 289
Refer to the term "local yokel" and shut the f up.
post #256 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by TallistDah View Post

People who have been furniture makers their whole lives do not bring the skills necessary. It doesn't matter how many jobs Apple brings to this area the people who have lived there their whole lives do not have the skills. At least some one got jobs building it and the people who owned the land made out.

Apple did the right thing.

I agree. Also, I have not yet seen a comment about how those 50 jobs, wherever the employees came from, contribute to the local economy. Even if every one of the 50 employees came from out of state (unlikely), that would be 50 more people buying homes in the area, and supporting local businesses - they'll be buying groceries, and visiting the local hardware store just like everyone else...
post #257 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugzy View Post

so which half are you kidding about?
We invaded a sovereign nation that did nothing to us, allow their infrastructure and economy to be destroyed and you kid about this?

Gold plated Mercedes? Are you confusing Iraq with Saudi Arabia?
Is the entire Middle East all just the same place for you?

Are you aware they we literally paid the Iraqis a cash salary for a long long time after Saddam was deposed because we screwed up their economy so badly? And WE were told that the oil would pay for the war. That never happened. We paid for the war with the lives of innocent American soldiers (and National Guard who should never have been sent there...)

More Americans died for a useless war in Iraq than died in the 9/11 attacks.
And you think it's funny.


Yawn. Get over yourself. Mind quoting the "they" who told us the oil would pay for the war? Or is that just more mindless speak.

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post #258 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

Yawn. Get over yourself. Mind quoting the "they" who told us the oil would pay for the war? Or is that just more mindless speak.

"Iraq will be an affordable endeavor that will not require sustained aid and will be in the range of $50 billion to $60 billion."
-- Budget Director Mitch Daniels [Forbes 4/11/03, W. Post 3/28/03, NY Times 1/2/03, respectively]

"The oil revenues of Iraq could bring between $50 and $100 billion over the course of the next two or three years. We're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon."
-- Paul Wolfowitz, [Congressional Testimony, 3/27/03]

and then:

The Wall Street Journal reported on 9/5/03 that "the Administration's oil estimates were predicated on aggressively optimistic assumptions."

International Oil Daily reported on 9/23/03 that "Paul Bremer said that current and future oil revenues will be insufficient for rebuilding Iraq despite the Administration's pre-war promises."
post #259 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Is it ok if somebody fires some missiles at your house? You seem to be ok with that, based upon your unique definition of "nothing".

You should read up on the history of that war and you'll find out that your claim of "nothing" is completely false and wrong.

Perhaps you could enlighten me and explain to everyone just exactly why we invaded a sovereign nation on March 20 2002.
It would go a long way toward establishing some credibility on your specious claims.

My father in law is a retired submarine captain (diesel sub!)
During the buildup to the war in Iraq he said "they don't go to war without a very good reason."
He should know. He spent his life in the military. He knows how it works. I defer to his judgement.
He has a very different opinion today after seeing how it was handled.

My father-in-law now shares my opinion on the Iraq war. Are you saying that his observations based on his years of military service are completely false and wrong?
post #260 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugzy View Post

"Iraq will be an affordable endeavor that will not require sustained aid and will be in the range of $50 billion to $60 billion."
-- Budget Director Mitch Daniels [Forbes 4/11/03, W. Post 3/28/03, NY Times 1/2/03, respectively]

"The oil revenues of Iraq could bring between $50 and $100 billion over the course of the next two or three years. We're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon."
-- Paul Wolfowitz, [Congressional Testimony, 3/27/03]

and then:

The Wall Street Journal reported on 9/5/03 that "the Administration's oil estimates were predicated on aggressively optimistic assumptions."

International Oil Daily reported on 9/23/03 that "Paul Bremer said that current and future oil revenues will be insufficient for rebuilding Iraq despite the Administration's pre-war promises."

Great quotes- so where does it say it will pay for the war? Still looking for those.

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post #261 of 289
Oh BOO HOO!

Mr. Furniture Maker, if you knew about this data center two years before it actually opened, why didn't you try taking some technology classes so you could apply for one of those jobs? Or if not you, why not someone else get retrained to become a good job applicant for Apple?

Here's the problem... the people who are complaining are completely unwilling to do or try anything different. I suppose they expected Apple to hire a furniture maker? Or a lumberjack? Or a burger flipper? Sure, if these people have qualifications in running and supporting a data center.

Now the larger view... those 50 people hired now have more disposable income in an area that desperately needs it. So those 50 people will now be able to pay down their debt, perhaps buy some furniture, and eat out more often.

I owned a successful graphics design firm in Seattle for four years. When I moved to Arizona for a life change, I retrained myself and opened up a real estate office which is now ranked in the top 20 locally. People need to think bigger, make the changes, and stop waiting for someone to come and rescue you. And you know what? I consider myself quite liberal and progressive... but these whiners make me sick.
post #262 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugzy View Post

Liberalism or Progressivism is not about all about "new ideas", it is OPEN to new ideas (the antithesis of true conservatism). It is more about that the role of government is to protect the rights of the citizens. (also apparently the antithesis of conservatives who seem very concerned about how I spend my time in the privacy of my own home. Conservatives also seem to spend a great deal of time thinking about the gays for some reason. Wonder why they are so obsessed? )



and conservatives simply SPEND and charge it to the next generation, then blame Liberals for the debt that was incurred. Republicans started new wars during the Bush administration with no way to pay for them. None. Well, to be honest we were told that the oil in Iraq would pay for it. How did that work out?
How did Bush take office with a budget surplus (thanks Clinton!) and control of all three branches of government, but leave it trillions of dollars in debt after 8 years?



Those are not new ideas and they have been tried, some with success as well, but in former Eastern Bloc countries and the Russian Federation.
Is that the economic model you wish to push comrade?
You would see farther if you took off the blinders and stopped viewing politics as a sporting event where half of America is your enemy.

You've all got to stop talking about conservatives and liberals. You're talking about Republicans and Democrats, neither of whom is conservative. The things you blame on conservatives are just things that Republicans do while CALLING themselves conservative, but if you're talking philosophies, very little of either party is conservative. If you want to know what a conservative would do, listen to Ron Paul.
post #263 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Why should anyone read a utopian fantasy based on premises completely at odds with all reality, including human nature?

Spoken like someone whose never read Atlas Shrugged, but heard from others of his ideology that he must hate it and bash it at all costs.

The really amazing thing about Atlas Shrugged, is not only is it consistent with reality, it is predictive of the future, and it did so accurately, even 40 years out. It even predicted your comment, not specifically, but the ideology that led to it.

Quote:
It's not like Rand had any talent as a writer, or a philosopher. Atlas Shrugged is, like all of Rand's thought and writings, a piece of trash.

So, you have no actual facts of reality that Atlas Shrugged is inconstant with? Just going to call Ayn Rand a "bad writer".

I love this criticism, by the way. Every mouth breathing idiot who has never read the book but hates it on general "principle", loves to say she's a "bad writer"... it serves your purposes.

1. Its totally subjective, thus you can't possibly be wrong as you would be if you tried to talk facts about a book you haven't read.

2. It attacks her personally, and if there's one thing that leftists like to do, its engage in the politics of personal destruction.

3. It keeps the focus on her, rather than on her ideas. You, and all your ilk, don't even mention objectivism. Of course, your sole purpose is to keep open minded liberals from reading this book, lest they discover that you've been feeding them nonsense all these years.

Amazing how that piece of trash has predicted the decline and the nature of its causes, so many decades in advance. It's cause she's a "terrible writer", right?

And of course, your anti-intellectual, anti-literature rant ignores the point Adam was originally making.

But it gives me an opportunity to point out how little class, integrity, or honesty you have.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Absolutely, totally, 100% wrong. Perhaps you should learn something about a political ideology before attacking it.

Liberalism's goal and focus is to destroy the lives of poor people. This is why they support policies like minimum wage: They'd rather poor people be unemployed missing out on a $20/hour wage than be gainfully employed at $10/hour.

this is why you support social security- you'd rather old people be dependent on the government to survive, and thus you can count on their votes by threatening their very lives-- than have been able to save money for their retirement so that they could live their final years happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbonner View Post

Right off the rails on page 5.

Well, it was an intrinsically political story and this is the internet.

I would like to point out that a "Tax credit" is not a gift.... its simply STEALING LESS.
post #264 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugzy View Post

It is more about that the role of government is to protect the rights of the citizens.

I've never in my life seen a democrat advocate protecting the rights of citizens. Or am I crazy, and democrats suddenly support private property? I mean, I have a right to not be enslaved, right? So, how is it that democrats think that the government taking %70 of my income is not good enough and that they should take more? Everywhere I turn democrats are calling for more "taxes on the rich", by which they mean me.

Will democrats think my rights are fully protected only when %100 of my income goes to them?

[quote]Conservatives also seem to spend a great deal of time thinking about the gays for some reason. Wonder why they are so obsessed? )[/I]

Conservatives are not worried about gay people and not bothered by gay people getting married. Republicans are not conservatives in the same way that democrats are not liberals.

Remember, the word "Liberal" means someone who believes in LIBERTY. Nowadays, the only party that follows what Liberal actually means is the Libertarian party.

Democrats hate libertarians, because democrats don't believe in protecting human rights, and liberals/libertarians do.

Quote:
and conservatives simply SPEND and charge it to the next generation, then blame Liberals for the debt that was incurred.

Both parties do that, though its worth noting Obamassa has spent far more than Bush did and far less efficiently.

Quote:
Republicans started new wars during the Bush administration with no way to pay for them. None.

Obamassa started new wars with no way to pay for them either... he has attacked pakistan, lybia, etc.

Worse, if these wars are so bad, why has Obamassa expanded them? Why did he expand the patriot act? Why is his government stealing domain names without due process?

Why is his government molesting children and taking nude pictures of adults at airports, in direct violation of the fourth amendment?

Because democrats want to protect human rights? Yeah, right!
post #265 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi View Post

... So, how is it that democrats think that the government taking %70 of my income is not good enough and that they should take more? Everywhere I turn democrats are calling for more "taxes on the rich", by which they mean me...(more bs sprinkled with fanciful notions)

Well you won't have to worry yourself about protecting all that money for too long. Anyone who pays 70% taxes is getting ripped off by their accountant for about 40% of that. The top tax rate is 28%. The dems want to let the bush tax cuts for the rich expire. That would bring the tax rate for the wealthiest Americans to 39.6%. Which is what the tax rate was under Clinton and back then we had a budget surplus and a good economy.

How does a person get rich when they're terrible at math?

You're writing fiction. Just like ayn rand.
post #266 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor David View Post

Anyone who pays 70% taxes is getting ripped off by their accountant for about 40% of that. The top tax rate is 28%.

I'm talking total tax rate, not just federal income tax. People making a modest income often pay %70 taxes. For instance, %20 federal, %17 Social Security, %6 medicare, etc, %10 state taxes... how far are we? That's %53 right there. Then for all of your expenses you pay sales taxes, which is usually another %8, though for things like Gas and Airplane tickets it is as high as %50. Let's just call the total %61. Then there's unemployment insurance, and the built in taxes on the products you buy that you don't see, which in some cases is itself %90 of the cost of what you pay for the time.

Hell, if you got your way, that would be %40+%17+%6+%12+%10 = %85. Or, put in real terms: %15 free man, %85 slave working to support scum who can't be bothered to get off of their asses.

Quote:
The dems want to let the bush tax cuts for the rich expire.

It really is sad to see people trot out that lie, even after all these years. The bush tax cuts, reduced the amount that poor people pay by %50 and the amount rich people pay by %3. So, when you call them "for the rich" you're lying, of course. But maybe you're just a poor disadvantaged mentally challenged person who can't do math?

And "letting them expire" is the same as raising taxes. Only, those tax cuts were for the poor, primarily, but the democrats are talking about taxing the rich. so, while they may reverse those tax cuts--- increasing taxes on the poor by %50--- it won't be "sticking it to the rich" when they do.

But you lot of lazy ass sitters will run around and pretend like you didn't just screw over all the poor people in the country.

By the way, the cuts Bush originally proposed would have cut poor people's taxes even further, but the democrats opposed that. Cause democrats like the poor? Right... sure....

Quote:
That would bring the tax rate for the wealthiest Americans to 39.6%. Which is what the tax rate was under Clinton and back then we had a budget surplus and a good economy.

Right, so, taking %40 of people's money produces a good economy? You probably believe that too.

Quote:
You're writing fiction. Just like ayn rand.

Its really a shame that your positions are so bad that you can't be honest, and can't talk about the issues, and instead have to engage in personal attacks.

By the way, my tax rate is zero. I live outside the USA, and have structured my life so that I don't have to pay into your failing system.

I also knew the housing bubble was coming in 2001, and profited from it all the way up until 2007, when I switched my positions to profit from the collapse.

It wasn't perfect timing-- I was off by about 6 months-- but I still made out like gangbusters.

How'd you do?

Enjoy your sucky economy-- you asked for it!
post #267 of 289
By the way, my tax rate is zero. I live outside the USA, and have structured my life so that I don't have to pay into your failing system.-jessi

That's a good start. Do you have any friends you can convince to join you?
post #268 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

War is better than a useless and wasteful stimulus.

That's a really sick and morbid way to look at things.


Though you can argue Hitler probaly had more to do with our modernized society than anyone would care to think. I belive at one time he was said to be one the most influential person of the 20th century.
post #269 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi View Post

I've never in my life seen a democrat advocate protecting the rights of citizens. Or am I crazy, ...

I was talking about Liberalism. You then equated Liberalism with Democrats. Why? I never mentioned Democrats. You re-framed my comment to suit your needs.

then you said this:

Quote:
Republicans are not conservatives in the same way that democrats are not liberals.

I would agree with you there.

but that's about it. the rest of your post is a bunch of random ranting about I don't know what.
You may know what it means but you cannot articulate it.

You are flip flopping around like a dying fish in a bucket.
post #270 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

Yawn. Get over yourself. Mind quoting the "they" who told us the oil would pay for the war? Or is that just more mindless speak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugzy View Post

"Iraq will be an affordable endeavor that will not require sustained aid and will be in the range of $50 billion to $60 billion."
-- Budget Director Mitch Daniels [Forbes 4/11/03, W. Post 3/28/03, NY Times 1/2/03, respectively]

"The oil revenues of Iraq could bring between $50 and $100 billion over the course of the next two or three years. We're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon."
-- Paul Wolfowitz, [Congressional Testimony, 3/27/03]

and then:

The Wall Street Journal reported on 9/5/03 that "the Administration's oil estimates were predicated on aggressively optimistic assumptions."

International Oil Daily reported on 9/23/03 that "Paul Bremer said that current and future oil revenues will be insufficient for rebuilding Iraq despite the Administration's pre-war promises."

Pwned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

Great quotes- so where does it say it will pay for the war? Still looking for those.

Stop digging.
post #271 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi View Post

Liberalism's goal and focus ...

This is not meant as a political comment.

But please, if you're going to be getting into fancy arguments, as others have pointed out, please do take the trouble to understand what a word means!?

The fact that you parrot words without knowing their meaning detracts from the arguments you're trying to make.
post #272 of 289
How many Solaris (Unix) admin's or Cisco (network) admin's do you think are available in a town of 3400 for data center employment.

Code maintainers can be anywhere, where they can access the data center remotely.
post #273 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

You are telling me 50 jobs that is all Apple offered. A dam disgrace indeed. This state is high in unemployment to begin with.Tim Cook and Apple better get their act together.

So 0 jobs instead of 50 is better?

And if 50 isn't enough what is? 100? 500? 5,000?

Since when did Apple single handedly become the savior for their economy? Ugh - more breathtaking "logic"....
post #274 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

So 0 jobs instead of 50 is better?

And if 50 isn't enough what is? 100? 500? 5,000?

Since when did Apple single handedly become the savior for their economy? Ugh - more breathtaking "logic"....

But, but Steve Jobs say "I will spend every penny of Apple's money to save Americans."? We're all supposed to get checks in the 1st quarter of next year....
post #275 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

The real issue here has nothing to do with apple. The real issue is that state and local governments fall all over themselves to give tax breaks to companies without really thinking about whether the benefits outweigh the costs.

You threw it down, now follow through.

Demonstrate how the "evil" tax breaks for Apple are a negative.

What? You don't have anything to back up your assertion other than populist rhetoric? What a shock!

Quote:
Another example is how cities fall all over themselves to build stadiums for sports franchises. I think it's largely a case of little people trying to feel big.

Huh? An Apple data center and a sports stadium are hardly comparable - but nice hyperbole!

Quote:
I don't know enough about the details here to know whether the NC folks made a mistake or not, but those sound like some pretty big tax cuts for a very small number of jobs.

Tax cuts from what?

What exactly was "cut"?

Quote:
Again -- not apples fault -- they were honest about the number of jobs. The problem is a culture where everyone reflexively rolls over for big business.

And how is bargaining with a company and making yourself competitive vs. other regions "rolling over"?!?!

Good grief! The anti-business rhetoric in this country is getting off the charts....
post #276 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi View Post

I'm talking total tax rate, not just federal income tax. People making a modest income often pay %70 taxes. For instance, %20 federal, %17 Social Security, %6 medicare, etc, %10 state taxes... how far are we? That's %53 right there. Then for all of your expenses you pay sales taxes, which is usually another %8, though for things like Gas and Airplane tickets it is as high as %50. Let's just call the total %61. Then there's unemployment insurance, and the built in taxes on the products you buy that you don't see, which in some cases is itself %90 of the cost of what you pay for the time.

Hell, if you got your way, that would be %40+%17+%6+%12+%10 = %85. Or, put in real terms: %15 free man, %85 slave working to support scum who can't be bothered to get off of their asses.

Nice try, but you've managed to blow things way out of proportion. Let's use the real figures:

Federal - 35% Max rate (but you have to earn $350 K to pay that)
Social Security - 6.2 % (but only on the first $107K of income - 0% above that)
Medicare - 1.45%
State - up to 10%, but some states have none.

So let's do the math. Take an income of $350,000 (which I'm willing to bet is far more than you earn, so your numbers would be much lower). Keep in mind that Federal and state taxes are bracketed - even if you're in the 35% Federal bracket, you don't pay 35% on the total - just the amount in the highest bracket.
For $350,000 income:
Federal: $101,500
State: $20,000 (using my state which is fairly high)
Social Security: $6,600
Medicare: $5,000

Total: 38%
And even that number is too high because it doesn't allow for any deductions or personal exemptions. More realistically, a person earning $350 K is paying 30-35% or less - or about 1/2 of the number you're claiming (and even less if they have a decent accountant and reasonable flexibility in their finances). For example, Warren Buffett who makes more than either of us could ever dream of paid 17.7% of his income in taxes last year.

Sales tax? It's insane to include it because it has nothing to do with your income. And it's certainly ridiculous to use 8% of your total income. Most people in that bracket are spending less than 30% of their income on items covered by sales tax. So let's add another $8 K in taxes (assuming that the person buys $100 K in taxable items per year). So the total tax burden goes up to 41%.

Unemployment? You don't pay that. It's not a tax, anyway. It's an insurance program. And 'hidden taxes'? Give me a break. You'll do anything to try to inflate the figures. If what you're trying to do is to determine the total government impact on the economy, you could simply look at total federal government spending as a ratio of total GNP - and it's about 23% of total GNP. Hardly the level that you are claiming.

Now, I'm not going to get into an argument as to what the 'right' amount is because you're clearly not equipped to understand it and/or are too intellectually dishonest to use accurate figures. It's enough to show that your 'facts' are grossly distorted and have no relationship to reality - just like many of the faux news crowd.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #277 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

The real issue here has nothing to do with apple. The real issue is that state and local governments fall all over themselves to give tax breaks to companies without really thinking about whether the benefits outweigh the costs. Another example is how cities fall all over themselves to build stadiums for sports franchises. I think it's largely a case of little people trying to feel big.

I don't know enough about the details here to know whether the NC folks made a mistake or not, but those sound like some pretty big tax cuts for a very small number of jobs. Again -- not apples fault -- they were honest about the number of jobs. The problem is a culture where everyone reflexively rolls over for big business.

If you don't know enough about the details to discuss the matter, why are you blathering?

For that matter, why do so many people insist on babbling about subjects they don't understand? It's obvious every time a subject related to business or economics comes up here. All the uneducated people who have no clue how business works think that their 'insight' is priceless.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #278 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oflife View Post

It is that attitude which is why the West is in the mess it is. Liberal thinking that says a) Employ people, even if you do not need or cannot afford them. b) Loan people money for items or property they havn't a hope in hell of repaying.

Further down the road, the wheels then start to fall off. As is happening now as overpaid council staff (here in UK anyway) are sapping up money that could otherwise pay for actual services.

Apple can do what they like, they are a private company. All that matters is they are environmentally responsible & treat their workers well, not to mention, help in the community. Perhaps by funding a local bus service for the elderly or similar.

This is not liberal thinking, in fact given the demographics of the region it is more likely those complaining are conservative both politically and religiously. But of course that wouldn't work with your narrative and need to introduce politics into story that has nothing to do with pointless liberal/conservative bashing.

It is unfortunate that those quoted in the reporting do not understand the reality of technology jobs, and that somehow the individual quoted in the article did not understand that having a big building filled with computer servers would not be a boon to local furniture manufacturing. What the individual should be doing is investigating how s/he can take their manufacturing and assembly skills and transfer them into commercial solar power installation. Surely a higher paying job with a much brighter future not only in their city but nationally.

However, the local officials should also take the time to explain the reality of economic-multipliers and why it is important to attract even 50 middle class jobs (middle class wage earners spend 75-80% of their income in local goods and services vs. 1-percenters who spend only 10-20% in LG&S), providing they don't all run to shop at Walmart and Sam's Club these 50 jobs and the 250 other contractor jobs that are being created directly because of Apple's presence represent a gain of nearly 9% employment for the city of 3,500 and should result in a nice bump in local revenues.
post #279 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Nice try, but you've managed to blow things way out of proportion. Let's use the real figures:

Federal - 35% Max rate (but you have to earn $350 K to pay that)
Social Security - 6.2 % (but only on the first $107K of income - 0% above that)
Medicare - 1.45%
State - up to 10%, but some states have none.

So let's do the math. Take an income of $350,000 (which I'm willing to bet is far more than you earn, so your numbers would be much lower). Keep in mind that Federal and state taxes are bracketed - even if you're in the 35% Federal bracket, you don't pay 35% on the total - just the amount in the highest bracket.
For $350,000 income:
Federal: $101,500
State: $20,000 (using my state which is fairly high)
Social Security: $6,600
Medicare: $5,000

Total: 38%
And even that number is too high because it doesn't allow for any deductions or personal exemptions. More realistically, a person earning $350 K is paying 30-35% or less - or about 1/2 of the number you're claiming (and even less if they have a decent accountant and reasonable flexibility in their finances). For example, Warren Buffett who makes more than either of us could ever dream of paid 17.7% of his income in taxes last year.

Sales tax? It's insane to include it because it has nothing to do with your income. And it's certainly ridiculous to use 8% of your total income. Most people in that bracket are spending less than 30% of their income on items covered by sales tax. So let's add another $8 K in taxes (assuming that the person buys $100 K in taxable items per year). So the total tax burden goes up to 41%.

Unemployment? You don't pay that. It's not a tax, anyway. It's an insurance program. And 'hidden taxes'? Give me a break. You'll do anything to try to inflate the figures. If what you're trying to do is to determine the total government impact on the economy, you could simply look at total federal government spending as a ratio of total GNP - and it's about 23% of total GNP. Hardly the level that you are claiming.

Now, I'm not going to get into an argument as to what the 'right' amount is because you're clearly not equipped to understand it and/or are too intellectually dishonest to use accurate figures. It's enough to show that your 'facts' are grossly distorted and have no relationship to reality - just like many of the faux news crowd.

Nice
post #280 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by flipperfeet View Post

Nice

Yes it is. Jragosta just took jessi to the woodshed.

Good job.
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