North Carolina locals question benefits of Apple's $1 billion server farm - Page 7

Is it ok if somebody fires some missiles at your house? You seem to be ok with that, based upon your unique definition of "nothing".

You should read up on the history of that war and you'll find out that your claim of "nothing" is completely false and wrong.

Sometimes. But not this time. This time it was a colossal waste of soldiers lives and trillions of dollars. And it is a large part of the reason bush took a budget surplus and turned it into a massive debt.

Do you live there? Apple and its' employees received the tax cuts, not the local residents. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

I'll bet that even after the tax breaks Apple pays a lot more in taxes than the land generated previously.

In my opinion it's too soon for jokes. And if you're serious you're crazy.

I recon it looks like everyone in North Carolina should mozy on over to Illinois.

I think the tax break only applies to Apple. I am not sure the town is thinking this through. Even at 50% off they are still taking in a lot more tax revenue than they were getting for the empty land (That was probably zoned agriculturally and generating almost no revenue at all).

100% of $20,000 is $20,000. 50% of $1,000,000 is $500,000. How anyone can use percentages in a news story is beyond me.

You are just very confused about what a tax break is. Land that was generating thousands of dollars in tax revenue is now generating millions of dollars of tax revenue (even after the break). There is a payback, a huge one. This was not charity for apple, it was a discount (you know a break) on what the taxes were to incent Apple to build there instead of somewhere else. The town is still taking in massive amount of new property tax revenue...

Just reading the story and skim read some of the replies here......... speechless.

Why should anyone read a utopian fantasy based on premises completely at odds with all reality, including human nature? It's not like Rand had any talent as a writer, or a philosopher. Atlas Shrugged is, like all of Rand's thought and writings, a piece of trash.

I did not read all 250 or so posts so maybe someone already said something like this but perhaps what is really going on here is that some politician is getting people amped up in order to boost his own prominence in popular awareness and using the single biggest media-attention getting option in his jurisdiction to do so.

Right off the rails on page 5.

Absolutely, totally, 100% wrong. Perhaps you should learn something about a political ideology before attacking it.


Much closer to the mark.


Maiden, NC isn't unhappy. The author managed to find a few poor, deluded individuals who apparently thought that Apple's data center was going to make them rich and when it didn't happen, they went off whining to the press.

I suspect that Maiden business owners are pretty happy overall. Maiden construction workers are probably pretty happy. Maiden city officials are undoubtedly happy with millions in new tax revenues.

No doubt, poor, uneducated Jud who expected that Apple would give him a $200,000 job as VP of sitting around is unhappy. That doesn't mean that it was a bad move for Apple OR for Maiden.


Well, it would be interesting to see where Iraq fired a missile at your house. Or Afghanistan, for that matter.

A few terrorists did some horrible things. How does that make the government of a country where the terrorists didn't even live guilty?

What? How many jobs did they think would be created? I guess they have no comprehension of how few people it takes to run a properly designed data center. 50 people is quite impressively large. Of course there were construction jobs to build the place, but of course, like all construction, those are temporary.

Refer to the term "local yokel" and shut the f up.

I agree. Also, I have not yet seen a comment about how those 50 jobs, wherever the employees came from, contribute to the local economy. Even if every one of the 50 employees came from out of state (unlikely), that would be 50 more people buying homes in the area, and supporting local businesses - they'll be buying groceries, and visiting the local hardware store just like everyone else...

Yawn. Get over yourself. Mind quoting the "they" who told us the oil would pay for the war? Or is that just more mindless speak.

"Iraq will be an affordable endeavor that will not require sustained aid and will be in the range of $50 billion to $60 billion."
-- Budget Director Mitch Daniels [Forbes 4/11/03, W. Post 3/28/03, NY Times 1/2/03, respectively]

"The oil revenues of Iraq could bring between $50 and $100 billion over the course of the next two or three years. We're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon."
-- Paul Wolfowitz, [Congressional Testimony, 3/27/03]

and then:

The Wall Street Journal reported on 9/5/03 that "the Administration's oil estimates were predicated on aggressively optimistic assumptions."

International Oil Daily reported on 9/23/03 that "Paul Bremer said that current and future oil revenues will be insufficient for rebuilding Iraq despite the Administration's pre-war promises."

Perhaps you could enlighten me and explain to everyone just exactly why we invaded a sovereign nation on March 20 2002.
It would go a long way toward establishing some credibility on your specious claims.

My father in law is a retired submarine captain (diesel sub!)
During the buildup to the war in Iraq he said "they don't go to war without a very good reason."
He should know. He spent his life in the military. He knows how it works. I defer to his judgement.
He has a very different opinion today after seeing how it was handled.

My father-in-law now shares my opinion on the Iraq war. Are you saying that his observations based on his years of military service are completely false and wrong?

Great quotes- so where does it say it will pay for the war? Still looking for those.

Oh BOO HOO!

Mr. Furniture Maker, if you knew about this data center two years before it actually opened, why didn't you try taking some technology classes so you could apply for one of those jobs? Or if not you, why not someone else get retrained to become a good job applicant for Apple?

Here's the problem... the people who are complaining are completely unwilling to do or try anything different. I suppose they expected Apple to hire a furniture maker? Or a lumberjack? Or a burger flipper? Sure, if these people have qualifications in running and supporting a data center.

Now the larger view... those 50 people hired now have more disposable income in an area that desperately needs it. So those 50 people will now be able to pay down their debt, perhaps buy some furniture, and eat out more often.

I owned a successful graphics design firm in Seattle for four years. When I moved to Arizona for a life change, I retrained myself and opened up a real estate office which is now ranked in the top 20 locally. People need to think bigger, make the changes, and stop waiting for someone to come and rescue you. And you know what? I consider myself quite liberal and progressive... but these whiners make me sick.

You've all got to stop talking about conservatives and liberals. You're talking about Republicans and Democrats, neither of whom is conservative. The things you blame on conservatives are just things that Republicans do while CALLING themselves conservative, but if you're talking philosophies, very little of either party is conservative. If you want to know what a conservative would do, listen to Ron Paul.

Spoken like someone whose never read Atlas Shrugged, but heard from others of his ideology that he must hate it and bash it at all costs.

The really amazing thing about Atlas Shrugged, is not only is it consistent with reality, it is predictive of the future, and it did so accurately, even 40 years out. It even predicted your comment, not specifically, but the ideology that led to it.


So, you have no actual facts of reality that Atlas Shrugged is inconstant with? Just going to call Ayn Rand a "bad writer".

I love this criticism, by the way. Every mouth breathing idiot who has never read the book but hates it on general "principle", loves to say she's a "bad writer"... it serves your purposes.

1. Its totally subjective, thus you can't possibly be wrong as you would be if you tried to talk facts about a book you haven't read.

2. It attacks her personally, and if there's one thing that leftists like to do, its engage in the politics of personal destruction.

3. It keeps the focus on her, rather than on her ideas. You, and all your ilk, don't even mention objectivism. Of course, your sole purpose is to keep open minded liberals from reading this book, lest they discover that you've been feeding them nonsense all these years.

Amazing how that piece of trash has predicted the decline and the nature of its causes, so many decades in advance. It's cause she's a "terrible writer", right?

And of course, your anti-intellectual, anti-literature rant ignores the point Adam was originally making.

But it gives me an opportunity to point out how little class, integrity, or honesty you have.



Liberalism's goal and focus is to destroy the lives of poor people. This is why they support policies like minimum wage: They'd rather poor people be unemployed missing out on a $20/hour wage than be gainfully employed at $10/hour.

this is why you support social security- you'd rather old people be dependent on the government to survive, and thus you can count on their votes by threatening their very lives-- than have been able to save money for their retirement so that they could live their final years happy.


Well, it was an intrinsically political story and this is the internet.

I would like to point out that a "Tax credit" is not a gift.... its simply STEALING LESS.

I've never in my life seen a democrat advocate protecting the rights of citizens. Or am I crazy, and democrats suddenly support private property? I mean, I have a right to not be enslaved, right? So, how is it that democrats think that the government taking %70 of my income is not good enough and that they should take more? Everywhere I turn democrats are calling for more "taxes on the rich", by which they mean me.

Will democrats think my rights are fully protected only when %100 of my income goes to them?

[quote]Conservatives also seem to spend a great deal of time thinking about the gays for some reason. Wonder why they are so obsessed? )[/I]

Conservatives are not worried about gay people and not bothered by gay people getting married. Republicans are not conservatives in the same way that democrats are not liberals.

Remember, the word "Liberal" means someone who believes in LIBERTY. Nowadays, the only party that follows what Liberal actually means is the Libertarian party.

Democrats hate libertarians, because democrats don't believe in protecting human rights, and liberals/libertarians do.


Both parties do that, though its worth noting Obamassa has spent far more than Bush did and far less efficiently.


Obamassa started new wars with no way to pay for them either... he has attacked pakistan, lybia, etc.

Worse, if these wars are so bad, why has Obamassa expanded them? Why did he expand the patriot act? Why is his government stealing domain names without due process?

Why is his government molesting children and taking nude pictures of adults at airports, in direct violation of the fourth amendment?

Because democrats want to protect human rights? Yeah, right!

Well you won't have to worry yourself about protecting all that money for too long. Anyone who pays 70% taxes is getting ripped off by their accountant for about 40% of that. The top tax rate is 28%. The dems want to let the bush tax cuts for the rich expire. That would bring the tax rate for the wealthiest Americans to 39.6%. Which is what the tax rate was under Clinton and back then we had a budget surplus and a good economy.

How does a person get rich when they're terrible at math?

You're writing fiction. Just like ayn rand.

I'm talking total tax rate, not just federal income tax. People making a modest income often pay %70 taxes. For instance, %20 federal, %17 Social Security, %6 medicare, etc, %10 state taxes... how far are we? That's %53 right there. Then for all of your expenses you pay sales taxes, which is usually another %8, though for things like Gas and Airplane tickets it is as high as %50. Let's just call the total %61. Then there's unemployment insurance, and the built in taxes on the products you buy that you don't see, which in some cases is itself %90 of the cost of what you pay for the time.

Hell, if you got your way, that would be %40+%17+%6+%12+%10 = %85. Or, put in real terms: %15 free man, %85 slave working to support scum who can't be bothered to get off of their asses.


It really is sad to see people trot out that lie, even after all these years. The bush tax cuts, reduced the amount that poor people pay by %50 and the amount rich people pay by %3. So, when you call them "for the rich" you're lying, of course. But maybe you're just a poor disadvantaged mentally challenged person who can't do math?

And "letting them expire" is the same as raising taxes. Only, those tax cuts were for the poor, primarily, but the democrats are talking about taxing the rich. so, while they may reverse those tax cuts--- increasing taxes on the poor by %50--- it won't be "sticking it to the rich" when they do.

But you lot of lazy ass sitters will run around and pretend like you didn't just screw over all the poor people in the country.

By the way, the cuts Bush originally proposed would have cut poor people's taxes even further, but the democrats opposed that. Cause democrats like the poor? Right... sure....


Right, so, taking %40 of people's money produces a good economy? You probably believe that too.


Its really a shame that your positions are so bad that you can't be honest, and can't talk about the issues, and instead have to engage in personal attacks.

By the way, my tax rate is zero. I live outside the USA, and have structured my life so that I don't have to pay into your failing system.

I also knew the housing bubble was coming in 2001, and profited from it all the way up until 2007, when I switched my positions to profit from the collapse.

It wasn't perfect timing-- I was off by about 6 months-- but I still made out like gangbusters.

How'd you do?

Enjoy your sucky economy-- you asked for it!

By the way, my tax rate is zero. I live outside the USA, and have structured my life so that I don't have to pay into your failing system.-jessi

That's a good start. Do you have any friends you can convince to join you?

That's a really sick and morbid way to look at things.


Though you can argue Hitler probaly had more to do with our modernized society than anyone would care to think. I belive at one time he was said to be one the most influential person of the 20th century.

I was talking about Liberalism. You then equated Liberalism with Democrats. Why? I never mentioned Democrats. You re-framed my comment to suit your needs.

then you said this:


I would agree with you there.

but that's about it. the rest of your post is a bunch of random ranting about I don't know what.
You may know what it means but you cannot articulate it.

You are flip flopping around like a dying fish in a bucket.

Pwned.


Stop digging.

This is not meant as a political comment.

But please, if you're going to be getting into fancy arguments, as others have pointed out, please do take the trouble to understand what a word means!?

The fact that you parrot words without knowing their meaning detracts from the arguments you're trying to make.

How many Solaris (Unix) admin's or Cisco (network) admin's do you think are available in a town of 3400 for data center employment.

Code maintainers can be anywhere, where they can access the data center remotely.

So 0 jobs instead of 50 is better?

And if 50 isn't enough what is? 100? 500? 5,000?

Since when did Apple single handedly become the savior for their economy? Ugh - more breathtaking "logic"....

But, but Steve Jobs say "I will spend every penny of Apple's money to save Americans."? We're all supposed to get checks in the 1st quarter of next year....

You threw it down, now follow through.

Demonstrate how the "evil" tax breaks for Apple are a negative.

What? You don't have anything to back up your assertion other than populist rhetoric? What a shock!


Huh? An Apple data center and a sports stadium are hardly comparable - but nice hyperbole!


Tax cuts from what?

What exactly was "cut"?


And how is bargaining with a company and making yourself competitive vs. other regions "rolling over"?!?!

Good grief! The anti-business rhetoric in this country is getting off the charts....

Nice try, but you've managed to blow things way out of proportion. Let's use the real figures:

Federal - 35% Max rate (but you have to earn $350 K to pay that)
Social Security - 6.2 % (but only on the first $107K of income - 0% above that)
Medicare - 1.45%
State - up to 10%, but some states have none.

So let's do the math. Take an income of $350,000 (which I'm willing to bet is far more than you earn, so your numbers would be much lower). Keep in mind that Federal and state taxes are bracketed - even if you're in the 35% Federal bracket, you don't pay 35% on the total - just the amount in the highest bracket.
For $350,000 income:
Federal: $101,500
State: $20,000 (using my state which is fairly high)
Social Security: $6,600
Medicare: $5,000

Total: 38%
And even that number is too high because it doesn't allow for any deductions or personal exemptions. More realistically, a person earning $350 K is paying 30-35% or less - or about 1/2 of the number you're claiming (and even less if they have a decent accountant and reasonable flexibility in their finances). For example, Warren Buffett who makes more than either of us could ever dream of paid 17.7% of his income in taxes last year.

Sales tax? It's insane to include it because it has nothing to do with your income. And it's certainly ridiculous to use 8% of your total income. Most people in that bracket are spending less than 30% of their income on items covered by sales tax. So let's add another $8 K in taxes (assuming that the person buys $100 K in taxable items per year). So the total tax burden goes up to 41%.

Unemployment? You don't pay that. It's not a tax, anyway. It's an insurance program. And 'hidden taxes'? Give me a break. You'll do anything to try to inflate the figures. If what you're trying to do is to determine the total government impact on the economy, you could simply look at total federal government spending as a ratio of total GNP - and it's about 23% of total GNP. Hardly the level that you are claiming.

Now, I'm not going to get into an argument as to what the 'right' amount is because you're clearly not equipped to understand it and/or are too intellectually dishonest to use accurate figures. It's enough to show that your 'facts' are grossly distorted and have no relationship to reality - just like many of the faux news crowd.

If you don't know enough about the details to discuss the matter, why are you blathering?

For that matter, why do so many people insist on babbling about subjects they don't understand? It's obvious every time a subject related to business or economics comes up here. All the uneducated people who have no clue how business works think that their 'insight' is priceless.

This is not liberal thinking, in fact given the demographics of the region it is more likely those complaining are conservative both politically and religiously. But of course that wouldn't work with your narrative and need to introduce politics into story that has nothing to do with pointless liberal/conservative bashing.

It is unfortunate that those quoted in the reporting do not understand the reality of technology jobs, and that somehow the individual quoted in the article did not understand that having a big building filled with computer servers would not be a boon to local furniture manufacturing. What the individual should be doing is investigating how s/he can take their manufacturing and assembly skills and transfer them into commercial solar power installation. Surely a higher paying job with a much brighter future not only in their city but nationally.

However, the local officials should also take the time to explain the reality of economic-multipliers and why it is important to attract even 50 middle class jobs (middle class wage earners spend 75-80% of their income in local goods and services vs. 1-percenters who spend only 10-20% in LG&S), providing they don't all run to shop at Walmart and Sam's Club these 50 jobs and the 250 other contractor jobs that are being created directly because of Apple's presence represent a gain of nearly 9% employment for the city of 3,500 and should result in a nice bump in local revenues.

Nice

Yes it is. Jragosta just took jessi to the woodshed.

Good job.