North Carolina locals question benefits of Apple's $1 billion server farm - Page 2

Originally Posted by freediverx

When a retailer discounts its products, the intended result is an increase in sales, thereby making the promotion a productive investment.

But exactly how did the state or local community benefit from having Apple build their data center there? If Apple only created a few new jobs and if there were no other strings attached - for example helping to train/educate locals for high tech jobs - then what exactly did the community get in return for the $46 million tax breaks and loss of revenue from the 50% reduction in property taxes and 85% reduction in personal taxes that will only place increased strains on already struggling services such as education ?

Originally Posted by Blastdoor

The real issue here has nothing to do with apple. The real issue is that state and local governments fall all over themselves to give tax breaks to companies without really thinking about whether the benefits outweigh the costs. Another example is how cities fall all over themselves to build stadiums for sports franchises. I think it's largely a case of little people trying to feel big.

I don't know enough about the details here to know whether the NC folks made a mistake or not, but those sound like some pretty big tax cuts for a very small number of jobs. Again -- not apples fault -- they were honest about the number of jobs. The problem is a culture where everyone reflexively rolls over for big business.

Originally Posted by freediverx

Unless those 50 new jobs went to locals and paid about $1M each, I don't see how they offset the $46 million in tax breaks, not to mention the huge cuts in personal and property taxes, that will impact the residents of the town and state.

Originally Posted by Mugzy

How many jobs were there when Donnie and Kathy Fulbright lived on that land?
How many jobs were there after Apple moved in?

Originally Posted by tinman0

I suppose that building just built itself....

Originally Posted by marvfox

You are telling me 50 jobs that is all Apple offered. A dam disgrace indeed. This state is high in unemployment to begin with.Tim Cook and Apple better get their act together.

Originally Posted by chrisrayb

3400 people in the town.
A potiential for 25-250 jobs.
Unemployment rate at 13%

Worst case scenario 25 jobs brings unemployment down .7%
50 jobs brings it down 1.5%
250 jobs brings it down 7.4%
Plus tax money to the town.

I can see why some of these people think that data jobs from Apple isn't for them and why their unemployment rate is so high. Basic math and logic must be hard to come by in this small town...

Originally Posted by Wings

"According to the report, local authorities have discounted property taxes by 50 percent and personal taxes by 85 percent."

If THAT'S not a major benefit to everyone there, I don't know what is. Please Apple, come build a plant in my town. I wouldn't care if I work there or not if it means I'll get my property taxes chopped in half.

Originally Posted by Andysol

Idiotic spending all the way around.

$1.7 million for an acre? Wow- that's Hawaii pricing (although that's a happy meal for apple).

North Carolina are the dumbest. $4.6 mil a year for 10 years for 50 jobs? Maybe (at most) 300? Wow...

Originally Posted by freediverx

When a retailer discounts its products, the intended result is an increase in sales, thereby making the promotion a productive investment.

But exactly how did the state or local community benefit from having Apple build their data center there? If Apple only created a few new jobs and if there were no other strings attached - for example helping to train/educate locals for high tech jobs - then what exactly did the community get in return for the $46 million tax breaks and loss of revenue from the 50% reduction in property taxes and 85% reduction in personal taxes that will only place increased strains on already struggling services such as education ?

Originally Posted by jragosta

Amazing how lousy the thinking processes are here.

OK, let's look at what the consumers receive:
- Vast increase in their property values ($1.7 M for an acre? Obviously some one has no right to complain). Even the people who didn't sell their land to Apple at extortionate prices benefits from more job opportunities.

- Jobs. 50 direct jobs and up to 250 indirect jobs in a community that size is important. That probably makes Apple the largest employer. This is especially true in an area with such high unemployment rates (btw, Chris' figures are wrong because s/he assumes that all 3400 people are employable. You could probably estimate that about 1/2 of the people are employable, so the impact on unemployment would double. However, some of the people will come from neighboring towns, so that town won't get all the benefit)

- Job quality. In that area of NC, there aren't a lot of great jobs. These will be some of the best jobs around - and will give the local kids something to work toward.

- Taxes. While people focus on the tax breaks, they miss the fact that Apple will still be paying 50% of the property tax and 15% of the personal taxes for 10 years (and then 100% after that). Since Apple's entry into the area greatly increased the property value (the $1 B investment may be more than the entire county was worth before Apple came along), even 50% of the property taxes will be substantial. The city and county will benefit greatly from this so it's not a corporate handout. Rather, they agreed that they would take less than the full amount under the principle that half of a big number is better than 100% of zero. So instead of focusing on the $46 M in tax 'breaks', one could just as easily cite the $46 M in extra tax revenue that they'll be receiving.

Originally Posted by SolipsismX

The land sale.
The yearly taxes on said land.
The cost of electricity.
The construction jobs created for the previous and current/future data center.
All the costs associated with the people now living in that town to maintain the data center operations.

Exactly where is the town not gaining from Apple's presence and how exactly is it not like a retailer reducing the cost of an item to encourage a customer into their area. Hint: It's the exact same economic principle that prevents a competitor from getting the business.

Originally Posted by freediverx

The land sale is a one time deal, and only benefitted a few landowners.

Do you have any data to show that the yearly taxes on the land will exceed the amount that would have been paid by the former landowners, and if so that this increase offsets all the tax breaks?

How does the sale of electricity benefit the residents of the town or state? If anything, I'd think it would drive up the cost of energy.

The construction jobs are, again, a one time deal.

The data center is practically autonomous, with only 50 employees. There's no massive hiring of locals nor the local business benefits of serving an army of data center workers since there's only 50 employees.

Originally Posted by mattjumbo

What the HECK are you talking about?

How is anyone "rolling over" for anyone? So North Carolina says if you build that data center here we'll give a 50% tax break. Or 60% Or even 100%. That is still 50 good jobs that you otherwise wouldn't have. So your choice is 50 jobs or *nothing* and the smart move is to choose *nothing* so you can say you didn't "roll over"?

Unbelievable.

Originally Posted by Mugzy

How many jobs were there when Donnie and Kathy Fulbright lived on that land?
How many jobs were there after Apple moved in?

Originally Posted by marvfox

You are telling me 50 jobs that is all Apple offered. A dam disgrace indeed. This state is high in unemployment to begin with.Tim Cook and Apple better get their act together.

Originally Posted by freediverx

The tax break is not "free". It comes at the expense of government services such as education, at a time when education and other vital services are under the worst strain in almost a century. Where is the equation showing that the lost tax revenue is made up for, over the long term, by actual benefits?

Originally Posted by digitalclips

Maybe Apple could start making the furniture for the Apple Stores at that site. At least the locals would have those skills one would think.

Originally Posted by APPLEBIRD

Losers :-))

Originally Posted by freediverx

The tax break is not "free". It comes at the expense of government services such as education, at a time when education and other vital services are under the worst strain in almost a century. Where is the equation showing that the lost tax revenue is made up for, over the long term, by actual benefits?

Originally Posted by main1event

Did those people ever stop to consider the tax breaks that city receives? Sure it might be 50 jobs but its probably high paying jobs for that area. I'd rather see 50 high paying jobs than 200 McDonalds paying jobs.

Originally Posted by zeromeus

If all the unemployed people are qualified for the jobs required at the data center, then I'm SURE Apple would have hired more of them. Like the article says, "Those jobs aren't for us. All we know is furniture." I'm sure those furniture people benefited in that Apple needs to furnish their data center. After that, the benefit is gone until new furniture is needed.

So for the town to really benefit, the people need to learn how to work those jobs. That's their job, not Apple's. Apple hires those who qualify for the job. That's what they need to do and that's their rights.

Originally Posted by marvfox

You are telling me 50 jobs that is all Apple offered. A dam disgrace indeed. This state is high in unemployment to begin with.Tim Cook and Apple better get their act together.

Originally Posted by freediverx

jragosta wrote:
"Taxes. While people focus on the tax breaks, they miss the fact that Apple will still be paying 50% of the property tax and 15% of the personal taxes for 10 years "

As opposed to the 100% of property taxes that would be paid by the former owners?

Originally Posted by zeromeus

If all the unemployed people are qualified for the jobs required at the data center, then I'm SURE Apple would have hired more of them. Like the article says, "Those jobs aren't for us. All we know is furniture." I'm sure those furniture people benefited in that Apple needs to furnish their data center. After that, the benefit is gone until new furniture is needed.

So for the town to really benefit, the people need to learn how to work those jobs. That's their job, not Apple's. Apple hires those who qualify for the job. That's what they need to do and that's their rights.

Originally Posted by freediverx

The tax break is not "free". It comes at the expense of government services such as education, at a time when education and other vital services are under the worst strain in almost a century. Where is the equation showing that the lost tax revenue is made up for, over the long term, by actual benefits?

Originally Posted by Mugzy

Why don't you contact the town directly for the answers to these questions?

Originally Posted by drmoss_ca

I see some woolly thinking. It may be true and very reasonable that locals are unhappy that only fifty jobs came with the data centre so far, but to conclude from that that Apple should have made more jobs simply doesn't follow. The choice the community has is to have Apple there and accept fifty new jobs, or have Apple go elsewhere and not have fifty new jobs. To say they would rather have had a new factory with 500 jobs is certainly understandable, but that's not Apple's fault! All sorts of folk wisdom has been directed at this common misdirection of blame, from the saying about not looking a gift horse in the mouth to Æsop's fables.

Chris

Originally Posted by freediverx

Why don't you, prior to making half-assed claims that only look at one side of the story? It's your type of business/political thinking that have gotten this country into the sad economic state it's in today.

Originally Posted by freediverx

Why don't you, prior to making half-assed claims that only look at one side of the story? It's your type of business/political thinking that have gotten this country into the sad economic state it's in today.

Originally Posted by marvfox

You are telling me 50 jobs that is all Apple offered. A dam disgrace indeed. This state is high in unemployment to begin with.Tim Cook and Apple better get their act together.

Originally Posted by digitalclips

Maybe Apple could start making the furniture for the Apple Stores at that site. At least the locals would have those skills one would think.

Originally Posted by freediverx


At what point do we consider the downsides of the tax breaks on education and social services that benefit all the residents of the town and state?

Originally Posted by main1event

Did those people ever stop to consider the tax breaks that city receives?

Originally Posted by Wings

"According to the report, local authorities have discounted property taxes by 50 percent and personal taxes by 85 percent."

If THAT'S not a major benefit to everyone there, I don't know what is. Please Apple, come build a plant in my town. I wouldn't care if I work there or not if it means I'll get my property taxes chopped in half.

Originally Posted by Mugzy

Looks like concentricity has come up with the numbers and Maiden benefits by a massive amount because of the data center, even WITH a 50% tax deduction.

Now that Maiden has this windfall of money, your rage should be directed at how they spend it.
If they don't spend it on education, your issue is with with the town of Maiden, not Apple.

Originally Posted by rtdunham

"

I'm sure the nature of the jobs at the tech center disappointed locals. But how many man-years of construction employment did it provide the city? The county? The state? After the tax cut, is apple paying NO local or state taxes, or just a reduced amount? How much? How much will it pay annually starting ten years from now?

Originally Posted by TallistDah

People who have been furniture makers their whole lives do not bring the skills necessary. It doesn't matter how many jobs Apple brings to this area the people who have lived there their whole lives do not have the skills. At least some one got jobs building it and the people who owned the land made out.

Apple did the right thing.