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Carrier IQ data logging controversy prompts scrutiny from US Senate - Page 2

post #41 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Not to pick on you but this exact defence word for word is being bandied around a lot today so I'd like to point out how completely untrue it is.

Sure, it's the carriers that made the software and put it on the phone, but it's Google's choice to let the carriers put this kind of crap on the phone, to not control what it accesses, to not even really *have* a decent security policy of any kind.

This is so totally "an Android problem." It's one of the reasons everyone cheered when Apple entered the business as this kind of crap has been going on for years and years (the software itself is quite old), and it took Apple to actually stand up to it and say they wouldn't allow it on their phone. Google could easily have done the same but they didn't.

Google's customer is the carrier, not the phone user.

Totally Google's fault IMO and completely on purpose. Not even a mistake.

Agreed, Google is all about user tracking and data mining. They stand to gain everything if they can mine text messages, emails and searches of it's users for key words to serve up custom ads or sell to other venders.
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post #42 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by redbarchetta View Post

It's a carrier issue, not an Android issue.

As previously stated, just because Google doesn't install it on Android doesn't mean it's not an Android issue. There are very few Nexus phones that make up all Android-based devices so which vendors and carriers have installed the keylogger?

Also, just because Apple isn't using the keylogger and are very clear in what they monitor and how to opt-out they have an affiliation with Carrier IQ so that makes it an Apple issue as well. They both are victims of association even if they are both on the up and up, but that doesn't mean it's not their issue to deal with. If it wasn't they wouldn't be issuing statements.

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post #43 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

Is Google the most evil company in the history of the world?




Probably very close.
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post #44 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:14pm
It is the majority of Android phones that are diseased and infected.

according to Eckhart, the spyware is included in most Android phones out there.

http://gizmodo.com/5863849/your-andr...rything-you-do
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post #45 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

It is the majority of Android phones that are diseased and infected.

according to Eckhart, the spyware is included in most Android phones out there.

http://gizmodo.com/5863849/your-andr...rything-you-do

With Verizon being the largest Android seller in the US, and stating they do not use Carrier IQ, I find his claim over-reaching at the least. There's no evidence that Carrier IQ is also working with EU or Asian telcos too is there? If not then I don't know how he could claim "most".

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post #46 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

With Verizon being the largest Android seller in the US, and stating they do not use Carrier IQ, I find his claim over-reaching at the least. There's no evidence that Carrier IQ is also working with EU or Asian telcos too is there? If not then I don't know how he could claim "most".

It's 140+ million, and that number is from CarrierIQ's website. (Don't know the geographic breakdown of that).

How many Android phones are out there?
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post #47 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

As previously stated, just because Google doesn't install it on Android doesn't mean it's not an Android issue. There are very few Nexus phones that make up all Android-based devices so which vendors and carriers have installed the keylogger?

Also, just because Apple isn't using the keylogger and are very clear in what they monitor and how to opt-out they have an affiliation with Carrier IQ so that makes it an Apple issue as well. They both are victims of association even if they are both on the up and up, but that doesn't mean it's not their issue to deal with. If it wasn't they wouldn't be issuing statements.

Doesn't the data gathered from the iPhone go to Carrier IQ first, then bundled and compiled for Apple? If I understand how this works, reportedly the software sends logs directly to Carrier IQ, who then gathers and reports the results to the vendor/customer, whether it's HTC, Sprint, Apple or whoever. The data logs don't flow directly to the customer. I think I've got that right, but not certain.

If so then there would be a question of just what's actually logged, even tho the end-customer, Apple for instance, may claim not to get identifiable info.

There's lots more to come I'll wager.

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"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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post #48 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Doesn't the data gathered from the iPhone go to Carrier IQ first, then bundled and compiled for Apple? If I understand how this works, reportedly the software sends logs directly to Carrier IQ, who then gathers and reports the results to the vendor/customer, whether it's HTC, Sprint, Apple or whoever. The data logs don't flow directly to the customer. I think I've got that right, but not certain.

If so then there would be a question of just what's actually logged, even tho the end-customer, Apple for instance, may claim not to get identifiable info.

There's lots more to come I'll wager.

Of the companies that have used Carrier IQ only Apple has been forthcoming with what is recorded.
[] With any diagnostic data sent to Apple, customers must actively opt-in to share this information, and if they do, the data is sent in an anonymous and encrypted form and does not include any personal information. We never recorded keystrokes, messages or any other personal information for diagnostic data and have no plans to ever do so.

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post #49 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

It's 140+ million, and that number is from CarrierIQ's website. (Don't know the geographic breakdown of that).

How many Android phones are out there?

Doesn't that 140 million include iPhones too? If so they would make up a big chunk of that wouldn't they? Apple is one of their customers, perhaps the largest single one. Or rather, was the largest one.

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"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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post #50 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 801 View Post

Well, know you know that Sen. Al Franken, D-Minn. reads this site.
Welcome Senator, glad to have you.


I doubt if that moron even knows how to read.... It's obvious this was written by someone on his staff..

I'm SO glad the government still cares about us little people...

I guess everything is just running great in DC, and there is nothing more important the senate could be doing..
Dr
Pepper
Crew
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post #51 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:34pm
This is a million times worse than that so-called location-gate that people were making a big deal out of a while ago. That turned out to be not much of an issue, even though certain people tried to slam Apple for it.

This Carrier IQ stuff records and sends your passwords, your google searches, basically everything!
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post #52 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Of the companies that have used Carrier IQ only Apple has been forthcoming with what is recorded.
[] With any diagnostic data sent to Apple, customers must actively opt-in to share this information, and if they do, the data is sent in an anonymous and encrypted form and does not include any personal information. We never recorded keystrokes, messages or any other personal information for diagnostic data and have no plans to ever do so.

Is that referring to the data Carrier IQ forwards to Apple, or even the data originally transmitted to Carrier IQ before it's compiled and forwarded to Apple? I don't know that's 100% clear yet.

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"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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post #53 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Is that referring to the data Carrier IQ forwards to Apple, or even the data originally transmitted to Carrier IQ before it's compiled and forwarded to Apple? I don't know that's 100% clear yet.

Maybe, but either way it's not personal data, much less everything you've typed into your device. It's also unclear if the Android-based devices with the keylogger software is sending all the data or if it's anonymous. Do we know the URLs it's sending it to?

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post #54 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Maybe, but either way it's not personal data, much less everything you've typed into your device. It's also unclear if the Android-based devices with the keylogger software is sending all the data or if it's anonymous. Do we know the URLs it's sending it to?

I thought I'd seen that mentioned today. IIRC is was to a CarrierIQ addy.

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"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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post #55 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexus View Post

The question is if the following above was true, could AT&T customers actually DO anything about it? Doesn't AT&T have that Anti-arbitration clause in the contracts thanks to the supreme court?

Unknown. But catching the carriers red-handed makes me smile.
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post #56 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I thought I'd seen that mentioned today. IIRC is was to a CarrierIQ addy.

I would think Apple would get its own diagnostic data sent to itself. Clearly anything from Carrier IQ can be altered easily as we've seen with the level of fluctuation between vendors and carriers.

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post #57 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by agramonte View Post

Verizon already said that they do not use Carrier IQ - that is the largest Android Block in the USA

So if Verizon is not using CarrierIQ, then are they using something else?

The wording of their statements does not rule out that possibility, in fact their statement indicates they run similar programs:-

Quote:
“Any report that Verizon Wireless uses Carrier IQ is patently false,” Verizon Wireless spokesperson Jeffrey Nelson said in an email. In an email follow-up, spokeswoman Debra Lewis elaborated. “We did recently notify customers about new privacy programs; we were transparent about how customer information will be used and gave clear choices to customers about whether they want to participate in these programs,” she said. “Carrier IQ is not involved in these programs.”

Source

Microsoft and Nokia have been disingenuous, they have not stated whether the software carriers add to their phones contains software of this type.

Quote:
Nokia also categorically denied that the tracking software is used in its devices. Spokesperson Mark Durrant said:

“CarrierIQ does not ship products for any Nokia devices, so reports that they have been found on Nokia phones are wrong”.

In a statement sent to ZDNet columnist Mary Jo Foley last night, Microsoft stated that: “The Windows Phone operating system does not include the Carrier IQ software”

Source

On a side note here is an example of how to write an unbelievably biased article.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #58 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:48pm
By the way, for those of you curious about what Carrier IQ claims to offer, the website link is here:
http://www.carrieriq.com/index.htm

Worth a read.

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"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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post #59 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Doesn't that 140 million include iPhones too? If so they would make up a big chunk of that wouldn't they? Apple is one of their customers, perhaps the largest single one. Or rather, was the largest one.

How many iPhones would that be? Since it's gone from most devices using iOS 5.0 and that OS is used going back to the 3GS is that really a lot os phones that are using it? Either way, that number does make it seem like Carrier IQ is almost exclusively in the US since we know AT&T, Sprint, HTC, Samsung and Apple are customers in some regard. So which is the carrier(s) and/or vendor(s) that is keylogging? That's what I want to know.

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post #60 of 99
12/1/11 at 4:55pm
I was watching a video of somebody showing what it tracks and they even know when you turn your volume up and down.

On Android of course, as this doesn't apply to iOS.
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post #61 of 99
12/1/11 at 5:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

How many iPhones would that be? Since it's gone from most devices using iOS 5.0 and that OS is used going back to the 3GS is that really a lot os phones that are using it? Either way, that number does make it seem like Carrier IQ is almost exclusively in the US since we know AT&T, Sprint, HTC, Samsung and Apple are customers in some regard. So which is the carrier(s) and/or vendor(s) that is keylogging? That's what I want to know.



Actually Apple said "We stopped supporting CarrierIQ with iOS 5 in most of our products", not most of their individual devices. Two different things. I would suspect that Apple is still using it in the 4S for diagnostics, being that it's a new device with a few bugs here and there that still need quashing.

There's another researcher who claims there's no "keylogging" in the manner we think of it. Dan Rosenberg writes that "CarrierIQ does a lot of bad things. It's a potential risk to user privacy, and users should be given the ability to opt out of it.

But people need to recognize that there's a big difference between recording events like keystrokes and HTTPS URLs to a debugging buffer (which is pretty bad by itself), and actually collecting, storing, and transmitting this data to carriers (which doesn't happen). After reverse engineering CarrierIQ myself, I have seen no evidence that they are collecting anything more than what they've publicly claimed: anonymized metrics data. There's a big difference between "look, it does something when I press a key" and "it's sending all my keystrokes to the carrier!". Based on what I've seen, there is no code in CarrierIQ that actually records keystrokes for data collection purposes. Of course, the fact that there are hooks in these events suggests that future versions may abuse this type of functionality, and CIQ should be held accountable and be under close scrutiny so that this type of privacy invasion does not occur. But all the recent noise on this is mostly unfounded.

There are plenty of reasons to be upset about CIQ, but please don't jump to conclusions based on incomplete evidence."

CBS has an recently updated story too, with responses from TMobile, Sprint, RIM and others.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505124_1...id-smartphone/

Almost refreshing to have a story other than Samsung or Apple legal news.

EDIT: IMHO, within three weeks this will be a largely forgotten issue.

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post #62 of 99
12/1/11 at 5:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by redbarchetta View Post

It's a carrier issue, not an Android issue. The Nexus phones, among with others, do not feature this tracking software at all.

Ummm no:
"Carrier IQ diagnostic software comes installed on many phones including Android, Nokia and BlackBerry devices. Carrier IQ software was later discovered on iOS devices but it appears to be benign."

http://www.techworld.com.au/article/...ions_answered/
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post #63 of 99
12/1/11 at 5:59pm
Originally Posted by redbarchetta
Quote:
Originally Posted by redbarchetta

The Nexus phones, among with others, do not feature this tracking software at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splif View Post

Ummm no:
"Carrier IQ diagnostic software comes installed on many phones including Android, Nokia and BlackBerry devices. Carrier IQ software was later discovered on iOS devices but it appears to be benign."

http://www.techworld.com.au/article/...ions_answered/

Ummm yes, from your article link:
The Verge is reporting that Carrier IQ software is not on Motorola's Xoom or Nexus-branded Android phones including the Nexus One, Nexus S, and Galaxy Nexus.

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post #64 of 99
12/1/11 at 6:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Originally Posted by redbarchetta




Ummm yes, from your article link:
The Verge is reporting that Carrier IQ software is not on Motorola's Xoom or Nexus-branded Android phones including the Nexus One, Nexus S, and Galaxy Nexus.

He/she said this is not an Android issue. Apparently you didn't read his statement or the article. Again. ummmmmm no.

Also from the article:
Can Carrier IQ software be removed?

It doesn't appear to be possible to remove this software on an Android phone unless you have a rooted device.

Paul says you can stop Carrier IQ on iOS 5 devices by turning off "Diagnostics and Usage" in the Settings application.
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post #65 of 99
12/1/11 at 6:20pm
Apple's been pretty clear about this: no personal information of any kind has been logged. If they are dissembling, they should be taken to task.

If they're not, I hope you'll do the decent thing, and apologize.

PS: Response to Gatorguy above.
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post #66 of 99
12/1/11 at 6:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Apple's been pretty clear about this: no personal information of any kind has been logged. If they are dissembling, they should be taken to task.

If they're not, I hope you'll do the decent thing, and apologize.

PS: Response to Gatorguy above.

Apologize? For what exactly?

I've apologized a few times here in the forums when I've been wrong. I do try to "do the decent thing" with all my replies, and not at all embarrassed to be shown incorrect. I don't think I've made any unsupported claims in this thread.

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post #67 of 99
12/1/11 at 6:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splif View Post

He/she said this is not an Android issue. Apparently you didn't read his statement or the article. Again. ummmmmm no.

I don't believe it is an issue with Android itself. It's a carrier initiative for the most part, and also used by some manufacturers for new device diagnostics according to reports I've read. Some Apple, Android, and Blackberry phones have all been implicated in some manner. Some other reports have also mentioned Nokia, tho I tend to question those.

FWIW there's been little to no evidence that any of the CIQ customers receive personally identifiable info. Every one that has released a statement so far indicates it's supplied to them in anonymized form. That includes Sprint, TMobile, ATT, HTC and Carrier IQ themselves. It doesn't mean they're all telling the entire truth of course, but there's no evidence yet that they're lying either AFAIK.

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post #68 of 99
12/1/11 at 7:14pm
I would suspect that most disinformation starts with "I would suspect that..."
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post #69 of 99
12/1/11 at 7:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

I would suspect that most disinformation starts with "I would suspect that..."

Since Apple says CIQ isn't used with most of their iOS5 products, that would infer that some are still making use of it. Which one(s) would you guess and for what reason?

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post #70 of 99
12/1/11 at 7:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Since Apple says CIQ isn't used with most of their iOS5 products, that would infer that some are still making use of it. Which one(s) would you guess and for what reason?

Only one.

iPhone 4 is the only iOS5 device to still have parts of it. No other Apple device running iOS5 has it. And the reason would likely be that Apple hasn't gotten around to stripping it out completely yet.

And it is off by default, people have to turn it on manually. And even if somebody does, then it doesn't track and spy like CIQ does on Android. On Android devices that have CIQ, people do not get any such option, it's on regardless. The system is so open, that they don't even give you a choice if you want to be spied on or not.
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post #71 of 99
12/1/11 at 7:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

. . . On Android devices that have CIQ, people do not get any such option, it's on regardless. The system is so open, that they don't even give you a choice if you want to be spied on or not.

Funny!

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post #72 of 99
12/1/11 at 7:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Only one.

iPhone 4 is the only iOS5 device to still have parts of it. No other Apple device running iOS5 has it.

And it is off by default, people have to turn it on manually. And even if somebody does, then it doesn't track and spy like CIQ does on Android. On Android devices that have CIQ, people do not get any such option, it's on regardless. The system is so open, that they don't even give you a choice if you want to be spied on or not.

Something I haven't seen discussed We know Apple hasn't gotten rid of the analytics, but replaced it, likely with their own software. So is Carrier IQ the only company that any low-level analytics for mobile OSes? Do we need to worry about other companies getting access to data that may or may not be anonymizing our data or recording way too much personal data?

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post #73 of 99
12/1/11 at 7:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

So is Carrier IQ the only company that any low-level analytics for mobile OSes?

I believe that AT&T, SPRINT and T-Mobile all admitted to using CIQ.

Verizon said that they do not. They might be completely honest in claiming that and they'd be technically correct. However, what if they're just using something else instead of CIQ?
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post #74 of 99
12/1/11 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

iPhone 4 is the only iOS5 device to still have parts of it. No other Apple device running iOS5 has it. . .

I think you might be mistaken. If you have a 4S, check to see if you have this file in iOS5: /var/wireless/Library/Logs/awd

It's also reported by one source to still log CarrierIQ data even with "Submit logs to Apple" unchecked. That doesn't mean it's doing anything nefarious. Just pointing out that it may still be resident.

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post #75 of 99
12/1/11 at 8:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristophB View Post

I do as well but wonder why the request is not to the DoJ assess and investigate.

Posturing and spectacle? His background is as an entertainer - your surprised?
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post #76 of 99
12/1/11 at 8:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I think you might be mistaken. If you have a 4S, check to see if you have this file in iOS5: /var/wireless/Library/Logs/awd

It's also reported by one source to still log CarrierIQ data even with "Submit logs to Apple" unchecked. That doesn't mean it's doing anything nefarious. Just pointing out that it may still be resident.

I'm not the one making the claim, Apple is.

Apple tells us there is only one device running iOS 5 that still runs Carrier IQ, and it's the iPhone 4. Other devices running iOS 5, such as the iPad, the new iPhone 4S, and older iPhone models updated to iOS 5 have had Carrier IQ stripped out. But Apple says it has never used Carrier IQ to record keystrokes or personal messages.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...1#comments-bar
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post #77 of 99
12/1/11 at 8:11pm
It's clear, from the PROOF SUBMITTED, that Carrier IQ IS a clandestine logger and is being used by manufacturers and especially the carriers, as a wiretap device. Thanks Cheeeney.... You and your pack of neo-nut clowns started this - now, we're going to finish it.
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post #78 of 99
12/1/11 at 8:21pm
All I've got to say is it's hard for me to believe that Carrier IQ is the only company that is offering this type of software ability. So my question is who else has this ability and what are they doing with it, and am I paying for their data transfer when they data mine? I know my feature phone turns on at 2:10 AM every single day and is doing something I have not approved. This Carrier IQ disclosure has opened Pandora's box and caught the telcos red-handed.

Inquiring minds want to know. This is a class-action suit waiting to happen.
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post #79 of 99
12/1/11 at 8:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljocampo View Post

All I've got to say is it's hard for me to believe that Carrier IQ is the only company that is offering this type of software ability. So my question is who else has this ability and what are they doing with it, and am I paying for their data transfer when they data mine? I know my feature phone turns on at 2:10 AM every single day and is doing something I have not approved. This Carrier IQ disclosure has opened Pandora's box and caught the telcos red-handed.

Inquiring minds want to know. This is a class-action suit waiting to happen.

Are are there such analytics being recorded from within specific apps because the apps include them. I don't think Apple's app filtering process would notice or care.

"Blank! BLANK! You're not looking at the big picture!"

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"Blank! BLANK! You're not looking at the big picture!"

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post #80 of 99
12/1/11 at 9:23pm
Yes we need more sponsorship and more government involvement. That way nothing will get done. We can all go back to cell phones the size of your fore arm.
An Apple man since 1977
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An Apple man since 1977
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