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Apple may build data center near Facebook, Google operations in Oregon - Page 2

post #41 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by 80025 View Post

Hopefully the folks in Oregon won't be complaining about Apple's failure to provide local furniture trade jobs, like the folks in North Carolina.

The state of NC handed out over 46 million dollars in tax incentives to one of the richest companies in the world for basically 50 jobs, and not even local ones at that.

Let's say those 50 people buy 50 homes locally...which probably didn't happen. I guarantee most of them ended up in Charlotte. It's still in NC, fair enough. But, how 'bout if we had just given those 50 people $300,000 for new homes and they just immediately forked it over to the local economy in the way of builders, existing homes, etc. $1.5 million. Hmmmm, a bit better deal for us taxpayers. $1.5 mil vs $46 mil

Oh, so they buy goods locally too? Wow, I hope they spend over $315 mil over the next ten years so we can recoup our sales tax!

So, excuse me if I don't welcome this multibillion dollar industry that COSTS us taxpayers of NC, with open arms. I have an iPhone and I have Apple stock, but it still doesn't make me an Apple corporate lover....
post #42 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

With our economy in shambles, these private companies are out to use extreme measures to try and avoid paying taxes.

If you're so keen on paying taxes you don't legally have to then why don't give more money to the government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayeyes View Post

The state of NC handed out over 46 million dollars in tax incentives to one of the richest companies in the world for basically 50 jobs, and not even local ones at that.

You might want to edit your post to make it factual and not come across as sounding crazy.

PS: I just got an extra 25% off at Banana Republic because I bought "3 or more" T-shirts. Funny how those willing to spend more get additional discounts, but I know some will read that I just stole money from BR despite dropping more than $150 in the store.

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post #43 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Apple has been using server farms for years with their extensive iTunes Store so what could these new massive server farms be used for? I don't think iCloud or Siri are going to cut it as answers.

They also have been relying on Amazon and others for years. Perhaps this is about weaning off 3rd parties, or at least becoming less dependent. Regardless, as more devices are sold, iCloud alone will demand greater and greater investment in server farms. In fact, it's possible that the NC facility couldn't meet iCloud demands and they have had to spend more on Amazon and Microsoft.

But I do share in your excitement about the possibility that this is for something new altogether.
post #44 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

See what happens, North Carolina?



They HAD to put the next one on the west coast for balance. You see, millions of data requests pumping electrons out of North Carolina. If they don't do something to balance it, the country will tip into the Pacific.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Apple opened a massive, 500,000-square-foot data center in Maiden, N.C., earlier this year. In October, it was revealed that the company also plans to build a new solar farm opposite the data center.

At least we can guess that they won't be building a solar center in NC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayeyes View Post

The state of NC handed out over 46 million dollars in tax incentives to one of the richest companies in the world for basically 50 jobs, and not even local ones at that.

Let's say those 50 people buy 50 homes locally...which probably didn't happen. I guarantee most of them ended up in Charlotte. It's still in NC, fair enough. But, how 'bout if we had just given those 50 people $300,000 for new homes and they just immediately forked it over to the local economy in the way of builders, existing homes, etc. $1.5 million. Hmmmm, a bit better deal for us taxpayers. $1.5 mil vs $46 mil

Oh, so they buy goods locally too? Wow, I hope they spend over $315 mil over the next ten years so we can recoup our sales tax!

So, excuse me if I don't welcome this multibillion dollar industry that COSTS us taxpayers of NC, with open arms. I have an iPhone and I have Apple stock, but it still doesn't make me an Apple corporate lover....

You might start by educating yourself.

First, in spite of the tax break, Apple will be paying the state considerably more taxes than you received before. The credit has been reported as 50%, so if it's a $46 M tax break, that means that the state will be receiving $46 M in EXTRA tax revenue (although you will have to subtract out the taxes previously being charged on the farmland and forest - undoubtedly far less than $1 M). So the state gains $45 M for the next 10 years - and $90 M for the 10 years after that.

Second, your information on jobs is wrong. Apple will be creating 50 new DIRECT jobs in NC that didn't exist before. They estimate that there will be an additional 250 indirect jobs (landscaping, security, etc). 300 new jobs is enormous for a city of 3400 (probably under 2,000 total jobs.

So, in addition to the $45 M in NEW tax revenue that the state will receive, you will also get:
- 300 new jobs - all of which pay taxes and generate income that will be spent at least partially in NC
- A large number of temporary jobs to build the data center
- Purchases of goods - at least some of the items needed for the data center will be purchased locally.
- A significant number of visitors from out of town generating revenue for the area
And so on

Looking down on this deal because Apple got a discount on taxes is just plain foolish and short-sighted.
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post #45 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

They HAD to put the next one on the west coast for balance. You see, millions of data requests pumping electrons out of North Carolina. If they don't do something to balance it, the country will tip into the Pacific.



At least we can guess that they won't be building a solar center in NC.



You might start by educating yourself.

First, in spite of the tax break, Apple will be paying the state considerably more taxes than you received before. The credit has been reported as 50%, so if it's a $46 M tax break, that means that the state will be receiving $46 M in EXTRA tax revenue (although you will have to subtract out the taxes previously being charged on the farmland and forest - undoubtedly far less than $1 M). So the state gains $45 M for the next 10 years - and $90 M for the 10 years after that.

Second, your information on jobs is wrong. Apple will be creating 50 new DIRECT jobs in NC that didn't exist before. They estimate that there will be an additional 250 indirect jobs (landscaping, security, etc). 300 new jobs is enormous for a city of 3400 (probably under 2,000 total jobs.

So, in addition to the $45 M in NEW tax revenue that the state will receive, you will also get:
- 300 new jobs - all of which pay taxes and generate income that will be spent at least partially in NC
- A large number of temporary jobs to build the data center
- Purchases of goods - at least some of the items needed for the data center will be purchased locally.
- A significant number of visitors from out of town generating revenue for the area
And so on

Looking down on this deal because Apple got a discount on taxes is just plain foolish and short-sighted.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...N_story_1.html


The 50% tax credit was for local property taxes.
Woopeee! 50 jobs for $46 million! 50 jobs were not given to anyone local. No one locally even knows anyone that works there.
Wooppee!...."possibly 250 more jobs". Do you think anyone from this small town will get them?
Significant number of visitors to a server farm? Seriously?

My husband owns a small business that employs 45 people. I can GUARANTEE that he pays more in taxes, and benefits the local economy more than the state of NC will see from this Apple facility for quite some time...if ever.

I'm from the area, so don't tell me how to "educate" myself from 3000 miles away...
post #46 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

You might want to edit your post to make it factual and not come across as sounding crazy.

Do you have any facts to dispute me? And yeah, go ahead and call me names because you have nothing important to add to the conversation...
post #47 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayeyes View Post

My husband owns a small business that employs 45 people. I can GUARANTEE that he pays more in taxes, and benefits the local economy more than the state of NC will see from this Apple facility for quite some time...if ever.

Apple paid NC more in taxes last year than you and your husband will pay in taxes in your entire lifetimes.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #48 of 73
jragosta, thanks for going to the trouble to sort through this.

Also, there's probably no way to quantify how much money flowed through local and nearby economies in the building of this project -- the construction workers, materials haulers, the engineers staying around for months, etc. To view this negatively because "rich" Apple got the customary tax incentive is pathological. Maybe if you had to put up with the pains of development like increased noise and torn up roads, you might complain, but otherwise you would look like an enemy of progress. And reason.
post #49 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayeyes View Post

Do you have any facts to dispute me? And yeah, go ahead and call me names because you have nothing important to add to the conversation...

1) So you replied to jragosta's post but didn't read his posts because it's all right there.

2) And what name did I call you?

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #50 of 73
Quote:

This story seems like a cooked-up piece of anti-Apple crap to me. The editor I used to work under would have tossed it back across the desk and said, "You didn't talk to anybody but the mom and pop hardware? You get on the phone right now and call every motel and restaurant and grocery within 50 miles and ask them about their business before and after construction. Call the state police about traffic, the gas stations, the smokehouse, I don't care who, but we're not running a story like this based on one hardware store in the middle of a dead town."

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayeyes View Post

The 50% tax credit was for local property taxes.
Woopeee! 50 jobs for $46 million! 50 jobs were not given to anyone local. No one locally even knows anyone that works there.
Wooppee!...."possibly 250 more jobs". Do you think anyone from this small town will get them?
Significant number of visitors to a server farm? Seriously?

No, the county gets 46 million, and they forfeit the other 46 they will be getting in ten years in order to earn those new tax revenues. Glass half full, remember?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayeyes View Post

My husband owns a small business that employs 45 people. I can GUARANTEE that he pays more in taxes, and benefits the local economy more than the state of NC will see from this Apple facility for quite some time...if ever.

How much you wanna bet Apple pays bit more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayeyes View Post

I'm from the area, so don't tell me how to "educate" myself from 3000 miles away...

A valid point, but why would you rely on a formerly good newspaper in D.C. to set your mind buzzing? You should do the research on the local secondary effects if you're so close and so willing to add to the clouds of negativity that seem to form around any sign of progress in this fearful country.
post #51 of 73
Ok, let's forgo all the stupid bickering back and forth about the "details" of the deal.

I would love to know how many of you sympathize with the "occupiers" or follow the democrat's belief that the top wage earners in this country should be taxed at a higher rate?
If you follow either one of those ideologies, and you think this Apple deal is good for North Carolina or it's citizens (let's forget about Maiden), then you are a hypocrite!

What about my husband's business? Where are HIS tax breaks? The citizens of NC are out $46 million dollars with little to show for it. Why not give some incentives to small businesses to come here? Why give the tax breaks to one of the richest companies in the WORLD?

I couldn't give a rat's a** about the 50 jobs, but the $46 mil tax break get's the best of me. It simply isn't fair when we break our backs to pay our fair share.
post #52 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayeyes View Post

Ok, let's forgo all the stupid bickering back and forth about the "details" of the deal.

I would love to know how many of you sympathize with the "occupiers" or follow the democrat's belief that the top wage earners in this country should be taxed at a higher rate?
If you follow either one of those ideologies, and you think this Apple deal is good for North Carolina or it's citizens (let's forget about Maiden), then you are a hypocrite!

What about my husband's business? Where are HIS tax breaks? The citizens of NC are out $46 million dollars with little to show for it. Why not give some incentives to small businesses to come here? Why give the tax breaks to one of the richest companies in the WORLD?

I couldn't give a rat's a** about the 50 jobs, but the $46 mil tax break get's the best of me. It simply isn't fair when we break our backs to pay our fair share.

You are ridiculous and a hypocrit because you know very well the breaks a business with 50 heads gets from businesses than an individual would not.

This is where you chime with your rhetoric about how governments are businesses while ignoring the fact that governments need revenue to function and that Apple, Facebook nor any other company was require to do business in a specific town, municipality, city, county, or state. Even countries offer incentives (you can learn a new word word today) to entice corporations to do business within their borders.

Again, show us where Maiden or NC has not made a net gain from Apple building the data center. What does maiden or NC if corporations took their business elsewhere because other states offered lower taxes than Maiden or NC? Surely you have rudimentary understanding of econonics behind your unteilding greed. Or not. I bet you think Apple's 23k sqft anchor store in GCS is wrong because a tiny fast food place pays more per sqft.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #53 of 73
It would be a hoot if Apple were using Dells in their data centers. More likely a custom server that will never see the like of day outside of Apple. Probably using AMD processors.
post #54 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

You are ridiculous and a hypocrit because you know very well the breaks a business with 50 heads gets from businesses than an individual would not.

This is where you chime with your rhetoric about how governments are businesses while ignoring the fact that governments need revenue to function and that Apple, Facebook nor any other company was require to do business in a specific town, municipality, city, county, or state. Even countries offer incentives (you can learn a new word word today) to entice corporations to do business within their borders.

Again, show us where Maiden or NC has not made a net gain from Apple building the data center. What does maiden or NC if corporations took their business elsewhere because other states offered lower taxes than Maiden or NC? Surely you have rudimentary understanding of econonics behind your unteilding greed. Or not. I bet you think Apple's 23k sqft anchor store in GCS is wrong because a tiny fast food place pays more per sqft.


Did you READ my statement or just gloss over it? I said my husband's business! Where did you get anything about an individual tax break?

And so I'm greedy because I want tax breaks for a small business? LOL! Unless you've run a business you have no idea what we're dealing with when it comes to economics. We have 45 people's lives at stake...people we care about---pay full insurance on and provide many other benefits. I wonder how long that will last if our taxes keep going up to cover the businesses that DON"T pay their fair share.
post #55 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayeyes View Post

Did you READ my statement or just gloss over it? I said my husband's business! Where did you get anything about an individual tax break?.

Yeah, I used two examples of show how a larger entity gets more breaks than a smaller entity to do their spending power.

Quote:
And so I'm greedy because I want tax breaks for a small business? LOL! Unless you've run a business you have no idea what we're dealing with when it comes to economics. We have 45 people's lives at stake...people we care about---pay full insurance on and provide many other benefits. I wonder how long that will last if our taxes keep going up to cover the businesses that DON"T pay their fair share.

You are greedy and delusional because you expect all these corporations to simply pay more in your state, country and city when they would pack up and leave your state, county or city if they raised the taxes to leaves of the simplest business entity thus bringing the state, city or county to it's knees due to stupid, greedy legislature you are all for.

You think Detroit is doing bad witch industry shutting down just imagine is North Caroline made a huge corporation that could function just as easily and with more profit across the border in TN, GA, SC, or VA. Then you'd be bitching that their isn't enough government to force them to stay.

If you're really not a hypocrite about paying the full share even a discount is presented before you then I expect you to never use a coupon or buy an item at a sale price. This is where you retort that you are not a business, but it's the same principle, and if you can't see how Apple is bringing in more money to Maiden and NC than before when the land and no utilities were needed then you are likely not ever going to see past your own foolish greed to understand.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #56 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTel View Post

It would be a hoot if Apple were using Dells in their data centers. More likely a custom server that will never see the like of day outside of Apple. Probably using AMD processors.

They use HP blades, I believe.

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post #57 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayeyes View Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...N_story_1.html


The 50% tax credit was for local property taxes.
Woopeee! 50 jobs for $46 million! 50 jobs were not given to anyone local. No one locally even knows anyone that works there.
Wooppee!...."possibly 250 more jobs". Do you think anyone from this small town will get them?
Significant number of visitors to a server farm? Seriously?

My husband owns a small business that employs 45 people. I can GUARANTEE that he pays more in taxes, and benefits the local economy more than the state of NC will see from this Apple facility for quite some time...if ever.

I'm from the area, so don't tell me how to "educate" myself from 3000 miles away...

I don't care what kind of business your husband owns. You're incompetent to discuss the issue because you don't know what you're talking about and you're letting your hatred interfere with rational thinking.

Here are the facts:

1. Before Apple bought the land, it was forest and farm and a couple of cheap houses. Real estate taxes were low, probably well under $1 M per year (I think there are something like 1000 acres, taxes were probably around $100 per acre on average, so the total would be $100 K per year).

2. If Apple paid full taxes, they'd be paying $9.2 M per year ($92 M for 10 years). But Apple got a better deal elsewhere so if NC had demanded the full amount of taxes, they would actually have gotten zero

3. Instead of accepting zero (or the $1 M that they're currently getting for the next 10 years), the state agreed to let Apple pay less taxes in order to get Apple there. So the state will get an additional $45 M that it doesn't have now. In addition, of course, the state gets 300 new jobs and all the other spending that goes with it. PLUS, after 10 years, that goes up to $9.2 M per year.

So, your position is that the state should have stubbornly refused to offer Apple a discount and instead walked away with nothing? No wonder it's your husband who owns the business and not you. You'd be bankrupt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayeyes View Post

I couldn't give a rat's a** about the 50 jobs, but the $46 mil tax break get's the best of me. It simply isn't fair when we break our backs to pay our fair share.

See above. The state is getting $45 M in revenue that it wouldn't otherwise have. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
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post #58 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I don't care what kind of business your husband owns. You're incompetent to discuss the issue because you don't know what you're talking about and you're letting your hatred interfere with rational thinking.

Here are the facts:

1. Before Apple bought the land, it was forest and farm and a couple of cheap houses. Real estate taxes were low, probably well under $1 M per year (I think there are something like 1000 acres, taxes were probably around $100 per acre on average, so the total would be $100 K per year).

2. If Apple paid full taxes, they'd be paying $9.2 M per year ($92 M for 10 years). But Apple got a better deal elsewhere so if NC had demanded the full amount of taxes, they would actually have gotten zero

3. Instead of accepting zero (or the $1 M that they're currently getting for the next 10 years), the state agreed to let Apple pay less taxes in order to get Apple there. So the state will get an additional $45 M that it doesn't have now. In addition, of course, the state gets 300 new jobs and all the other spending that goes with it. PLUS, after 10 years, that goes up to $9.2 M per year.

So, your position is that the state should have stubbornly refused to offer Apple a discount and instead walked away with nothing? No wonder it's your husband who owns the business and not you. You'd be bankrupt.



See above. The state is getting $45 M in revenue that it wouldn't otherwise have. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.


Where are you getting the 9.2 mil/year and 50% discount? Do you have any facts to back up that data? The only data I have seen anywhere is the 46 mil tax incentive...total tax break for 10 years. The 50% discount is local taxes.

I own the business with my husband....

You guys all lose just as much credibility with the name calling.

I have no hatred for Apple. I do have hatred for tax incentives...especially for ridiculously rich corporations.
post #59 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayeyes View Post

Where are you getting the 9.2 mil/year and 50% discount? Do you have any facts to back up that data? The only data I have seen anywhere is the 46 mil tax incentive...total tax break for 10 years. The 50% discount is local taxes.

Read his posts again, and this time comprehend them.

Quote:
I own the business with my husband….

1) Based on your previous wording you do not run the business, your husband does otherwise you would have stated you have a business.

2) My sympathies for your husband. If your husband agrees with you then my sympathies for your employees.

Quote:
You guys all lose just as much credibility with the name calling.

No one called you a name. Adjectives were used, no nouns, no labels, no names.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #60 of 73
Unless you understand NC corporate laws and my particular situation, you don't know jack about my reasons for not being "specific" with our business venture. We're married...'nuff said.

And unless I see some data to back up the 50% claim, it doesn't wash. I can read his statement, but there is no fact there. I have read 50% off local taxes. Not 50% for state.
Where's the data to back it up?

So, calling me greedy, idiot, uneducated... Adjective...sure. euphemism for name calling. Right....I get it.....
post #61 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

They also have been relying on Amazon and others for years. Perhaps this is about weaning off 3rd parties, or at least becoming less dependent. Regardless, as more devices are sold, iCloud alone will demand greater and greater investment in server farms. In fact, it's possible that the NC facility couldn't meet iCloud demands and they have had to spend more on Amazon and Microsoft.

I think that might be the answer.

Whatever conditions were in place to make it more cost effective for Apple to be renting off 3rd parties instead off running things in-house have apparently tilted in favor of Apple owning their own data centers.
post #62 of 73
This is probably the wrong forum for it, but the genie is out of the bottle ...

Much emphasis has been placed on the *mere* 50 new jobs introduced by Apple by building this server farm. In reality, a facility of that size cannot be operated by 50 people. Others have been moved there to help run the joint. Presumably, they are not transients and have become full-time, tax-paying residents and consumers. That cannot be a bad thing?

I'm willing to bet that a number of construction workers did come through as *transients* while building the facility. That must have brought at least a short term boost to the local economy?
post #63 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayeyes View Post

Unless you understand NC corporate laws and my particular situation, you don't know jack about my reasons for not being "specific" with our business venture. We're married...'nuff said.

And unless I see some data to back up the 50% claim, it doesn't wash. I can read his statement, but there is no fact there. I have read 50% off local taxes. Not 50% for state.
Where's the data to back it up?

So, calling me greedy, idiot, uneducated... Adjective...sure. euphemism for name calling. Right....I get it.....

It's OK for you to make claims about what is and is not ACTUALLY happening there - based on what YOU read in a newspaper published in another state, which based it's findings on speculation - and then you take umbrage for someone presenting facts (thanks jragosta btw for the analysis) that are actually on the table which by the way only barely touched on the fact that you have scheduled another 500,000 sq ft expansion, which will impact local/county/state construction workers as a job site, you have, in addition to the "50" jobs added locally among a population which seems to have no technical background whatsoever (this based of course on that article you seem to like so well) an additional population to pay more property taxes, buy more local goods and services.

I know your state and local tax system because my current company has facilities in NC. jragosta nailed it - you are OCD'd on the discount rather than the money actually being paid by Apple to be there in the first place. You refuse to accept the obvious - that there is a net gain by Apple being there - including upgrades and improvements over time to local infrastructure, regardless of the tax discount. And the people you should be bitching to are your local and state politicos, not an Apple fan blog. Perhaps this is why your company only employs 45 people, you have no clue how things work outside your own little set of preconceived notions. I have created and sold two businesses of your size or larger in my 50 some years of experience, between stints at Fortune 50 companies. Get off your high horse and look at the whole picture. Your analysis is fundamentally flawed, you demand that your comments be accepted at face value when you casually dismiss facts in evidence. Just. Stop.
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post #64 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

This is probably the wrong forum for it, but the genie is out of the bottle ...

Much emphasis has been placed on the *mere* 50 new jobs introduced by Apple by building this server farm. In reality, a facility of that size cannot be operated by 50 people. Others have been moved there to help run the joint. Presumably, they are not transients and have become full-time, tax-paying residents and consumers. That cannot be a bad thing?

I'm willing to bet that a number of construction workers did come through as *transients* while building the facility. That must have brought at least a short term boost to the local economy?

The recent report said 50 direct hires and 250 indirect hires. Presumably, the 50 employees are the people who actually run the data center. The 250 would be contractors who provide security, landscaping, and site maintenance.

One report I read said that the number could go substantially higher - up to 3,000 jobs in a couple of decades. I believe that's not likely, but 300 also seems a bit low. The actual number is probably somewhere in between.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayeyes View Post

Unless you understand NC corporate laws and my particular situation, you don't know jack about my reasons for not being "specific" with our business venture. We're married...'nuff said.

And unless I see some data to back up the 50% claim, it doesn't wash. I can read his statement, but there is no fact there. I have read 50% off local taxes. Not 50% for state.
Where's the data to back it up?

So, calling me greedy, idiot, uneducated... Adjective...sure. euphemism for name calling. Right....I get it.....



http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...rver_farm.html

50% reduction in property tax and 85% in personal taxes. The overwhelming majority would be property taxes.

Your apology is accepted. And, yes, that's mostly local. Apple doesn't owe the state any taxes, so there's no point in a credit there.
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post #65 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by fecklesstechguy View Post

It's OK for you to make claims about what is and is not ACTUALLY happening there - based on what YOU read in a newspaper published in another state, which based it's findings on speculation - and then you take umbrage for someone presenting facts (thanks jragosta btw for the analysis) that are actually on the table which by the way only barely touched on the fact that you have scheduled another 500,000 sq ft expansion, which will impact local/county/state construction workers as a job site, you have, in addition to the "50" jobs added locally among a population which seems to have no technical background whatsoever (this based of course on that article you seem to like so well) an additional population to pay more property taxes, buy more local goods and services.

I know your state and local tax system because my current company has facilities in NC. jragosta nailed it - you are OCD'd on the discount rather than the money actually being paid by Apple to be there in the first place. You refuse to accept the obvious - that there is a net gain by Apple being there - including upgrades and improvements over time to local infrastructure, regardless of the tax discount. And the people you should be bitching to are your local and state politicos, not an Apple fan blog. Perhaps this is why your company only employs 45 people, you have no clue how things work outside your own little set of preconceived notions. I have created and sold two businesses of your size or larger in my 50 some years of experience, between stints at Fortune 50 companies. Get off your high horse and look at the whole picture. Your analysis is fundamentally flawed, you demand that your comments be accepted at face value when you casually dismiss facts in evidence. Just. Stop.


I am not OCD'd on the discount. Again, that is for local taxes. jragosta quoted the same article I did about the incentives! Once again---I am PO'd that the one of the richest companies in the world is given a complete state tax break of 46 million dollars over ten years! Granted, Maiden will get a bit of extra dough for the discounted local taxes...good for them.

I will guote the same data that jragosta used in the article he obtained his FACTS from:

"The North Carolina legislature amended its corporate income tax law in order to offer Apple tax breaks of up to $46 million over the next 10 years to build its data center in the state. According to the report, local authorities have discounted property taxes by 50 percent and personal taxes by 85 percent. In exchange, Apple has created 50 full-time jobs and is also expected to create 250 "indirect contracting jobs.""


Meanwhile, our business will go on to pay our usual inflated taxes so Apple can get their precious break. And what the heck does our employee base have anything to do with the growth or measure of our business?

I can't believe the level you guys have berated me, all because I'm not stuck up Apple's butt! But, really I can't blame them for taking advantage of the idiocy of our state. If you think I'm the only one upset by the trend of incentives, you will find many upset North Carolinian's concerning the recent Chiquita deal....
post #66 of 73
Weather isn't the only reason they are interested in the PNW - just like NC benefits from cheap TVA hydro power, the PNW benefits from cheap hydro from the Columbia basin dams: http://www.usbr.gov/projects/Project...+Basin+Project

The same dams that helped us win WWII by powering the Aluminum industry for aircraft, powered our first nuclear reactors and provide abundant renewable electricity today as well.
post #67 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbobf View Post

tax breaks? Corporate welfare. Should not be allowed.

Yes, because heaven forbid a municipality weighs all factors for a deal instead of just those that make juicy soundbites!

The dumbing down of this country and polarization along "easily digestible but totally missing the big picture" soundbites and blog posts is just unbelievable
post #68 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

With our economy in shambles, these private companies are out to use extreme measures to try and avoid paying taxes.

Yup, because taxes are the only thing that matters...

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So much for being corporate citizens.

So much for being an informed and contributing citizen

Critical thinking is such a lost skill...

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"Buy American." Yeah, okay buddy.

Sigh... would have rather they built in in India instead?
post #69 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayeyes View Post

The state of NC handed out over 46 million dollars in tax incentives

If Apple didn't come, what exactly would they have?

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to one of the richest companies in the world

Other than furthering class-warfare populist rhetoric, what does this have to do with anything?

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for basically 50 jobs

I suppose by throwing out the "richest company" line you expect them to single handedly rescue the economy of NC?

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and not even local ones at that.

What the heck does that mean? They are flying them in daily from CA and then whisking them back at night?

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Let's say those 50 people buy 50 homes locally...which probably didn't happen. I guarantee most of them ended up in Charlotte. It's still in NC, fair enough. But, how 'bout if we had just given those 50 people $300,000 for new homes and they just immediately forked it over to the local economy in the way of builders, existing homes, etc. $1.5 million. Hmmmm, a bit better deal for us taxpayers. $1.5 mil vs $46 mil

Huh? Where the hell are you getting this money from? No Apple, no $$. Zero times a number is still Zero. Basic math.

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Oh, so they buy goods locally too? Wow, I hope they spend over $315 mil over the next ten years so we can recoup our sales tax!

Or no apple you can recoup zero against whatever imaginary numbers you wish

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So, excuse me if I don't welcome this multibillion dollar industry that COSTS us taxpayers of NC

Please detail, specifically and without platitudes or generalizations, how Apple is COSTING NC taxpayers.

Please.

I'm waiting with baited breath. Dazzle us with your fiduciary brilliance.

Quote:
I have an iPhone and I have Apple stock, but it still doesn't make me an Apple corporate lover....

Aha - the truth comes out. Corporations = evil.

Sigh... How the hell have we forgotten what has built this country and made us great? Unbelievable...
post #70 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayeyes View Post

What about my husband's business? Where are HIS tax breaks?

When he generates the *new* revenue that Apple does, he can negotiate the same kind of deal.

This isn't a foreign concept or special treatment for Apple. Do you get better deals as a new or existing cable customer? Phone? Magazine? Just about any good or service?

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The citizens of NC are out $46 million dollars

What would they be out if Apple never came?

Hint: Way more than $46 million.

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with little to show for it.

Yup - little to show for it except revenue they wouldn't otherwise have at all.

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Why not give some incentives to small businesses to come here?

Why would small businesses come? What business would they be able to do? You could give me zero taxes for the next decade, but if I want to run a bookstore in a town that can't support it that "incentive" does little for me.

Focusing only on tax breaks is pretty silly - there are way more factors involved than just one metric.

Your like people claiming the iPad will fail due to the screen size or any one other feature while ignoring the package as a whole.

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Why give the tax breaks to one of the richest companies in the WORLD?

Aha - again we come to the real root of the issue - "fair"

In what way does Apple's "richness" have to do with the overall economic viability of the deal?

Why stop at tax breaks? Heck, their so successful they should have to pay an extra success tax! Why not? They are the richest company in the world! It's not fair!

Ugh....

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I couldn't give a rat's a** about the 50 jobs, but the $46 mil tax break get's the best of me.

Yup, focusing on only one aspect and blindly ignoring the rest of the factors. No wonder your driving yourself crazy. Irrationality will do that

Quote:
It simply isn't fair when we break our backs to pay our fair share.

So you would rather NC receive nothing? Because NC wasn't the only state vying for Apple's business.
post #71 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayeyes View Post

Meanwhile, our business will go on to pay our usual inflated taxes so Apple can get their precious break.

How much more would your taxes be "inflated" without the additional revenue Apple brought?

Apple didn't cause your taxes to be "inflated" - overspending by your politicians did. No wonder you are continually confused and angry - you don't know who to hold accountable!

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And what the heck does our employee base have anything to do with the growth or measure of our business?

Demonstrating the scale of deals that can be made?

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I can't believe the level you guys have berated me, all because I'm not stuck up Apple's butt!

Your being berated because you are stubbornly not looking at the big picture due to your myopic focus on one tiny aspect of the deal while refusing to acknowledge there is more to the story. Apple is really just tangental, but fundamentally not what is at issue.

Your complete lack of fundamental economics is what is at issue.

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But, really I can't blame them for taking advantage of the idiocy of our state.

So you think your state would be better off with Zero additional income?

You always manage to avoid acknowledging or answering this question.

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If you think I'm the only one upset by the trend of incentives, you will find many upset North Carolinian's concerning the recent Chiquita deal....

You mean this one?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...y8N_story.html

Yup, NC is getting screwed on that one too

Unbelievable... Multiply any number by zero and you still have ZERO

Really, what is so hard to understand about that concept?

And just like any number multiplied by zero is still zero, multiple clueless people being upset about concepts they don't understand are just as irrelevant as a single clueless person. Actually, this is one case where it can be a negative instead of neutral - if a large number of said clueless people start voting and enacting their misconceptions
post #72 of 73
I think she's gone, DocNo42.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #73 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

At least we can guess that they won't be building a solar center in NC.

What does that mean? Apple is supposed to build a solar center in NC. Are you suggesting that they won't in Prineville? Would that be because Prineville is in Oregon?

Unfortunately, a lot of people have a simplistic and naive idea of what Oregon is like. While western Oregon (where I live) is fairly wet (though no wetter than, say, much of Georgia), central Oregon is mostly high desert--Prineville is a bit over 2600 ft. Prineville's average annual precipitation is 10 inches. It has an average of 300 sunny days per year. Central Oregon lies in the rain shadow of the Cascades, which include peaks over 10,000 ft. (Santiam pass, which I went over going from Eugene to Redmond--near Prineville--is over 4800 ft. Eugene is around 400 ft. When I went over the pass in mid-May, it was snowing.)



That's what it looks like looking west at Culver, a bit north of Redmond and Prineville. Notice the snow on the mountains. This was taken May 22.



This was the day before from Redmond, with a longer focal length. Those peaks are at about 10,000 ft.
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