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IDC predicts PC users won't upgrade to Windows 8, tablet sales will be "disappointing" - Page 2

post #41 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden99 View Post

There are already tablets available right now in the same form factor as iPad that are x86 with Windows on them (and for the last ten years in bulkier forms). I have heard Intel is bringing out a new mobile architecture every year. Oak Trail is the lastest available now, I believe the battery lasts 6-8 hours - but if you were rendering from Maya for instance I imagine less : )

I'm not sure the Atom processors have enough grunt to run full desktop applications. Not yet at least.

The way I see it if you want a full desktop on a tablet it's because you want to be able to run full desktop applications - either on the tablet itself or when docked to a keyboard (i.e. something like Office, Photoshop, Visual Studio, VMWare, Eclipse, Adobe CS5 etc)

Those are the kind of applications that aren't going to run well on an Atom processor.

If all you're going to do is more basic kind of stuff like check emails, use the Internet, do some basic documents, run some apps etc then a Metro/ARM tablet is going to work just as well as an x86 tablet with a full desktop.

Even if what you are doing falls on the more advanced side of "basic" (and wouldn't be well suited to an iPad style tablet) like researching for an assignment, looking for a new car to buy or collaborating with team members on a project the share/search contracts and side-by-side apps in Windows 8 will allow you to do that inside the Metro UI as well.
post #42 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowdog65 View Post

Most people simply buy a machine and use the OS it came with until they buy a new machine.

I believe that with Mobile, upgrading your OS is equivalent [almost] with downloading/installing a new app ... Vivre le difference!
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
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"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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post #43 of 132
Quote:
The way I see it if you want a full desktop on a tablet it's because you want to be able to run full desktop applications - either on the tablet itself or when docked to a keyboard (i.e. something like Office, Photoshop, Visual Studio, VMWare, Eclipse, Adobe CS5 etc)

I know Photoshop is no problem to run on existing x86 tablets, like Asus EP121. Microsoft themselves actually wanted developers to do some app development on the Samsung tablet they give out a Build conference (which would include using Visual Studio and other development tools). I have heard of some 3D artists successfully using x86 tablets with 3D sculpting applications. By this time next year I expect Intel to have more competitve offerings. Personally I'm not to sure about the power of Intel's GPU solutions.
post #44 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden99 View Post

However the initial plan, and I suspect still the official plan is to still give access to the Windows desktop, with a library of drivers and support for desktop style applications that have been compiled for ARM.

That's the million dollar question!

It's my opinion that at least by default, ARM tablets won't have the desktop included.

The confusion of having something that looks like the old Windows desktop but can't actually run any old applications would be too much for normal consumers.

That said, I would be surprised if Microsoft didn't offer an Windows 8 ARM SKU that included the desktop for business users and embedded system OEM's.

Less likely (but still possible) would be the ability to add the desktop to an Windows 8 ARM tablet as an after market feature (e.g. the ability to download the "Windows desktop" app from the store).
post #45 of 132
I read the previous posts and realized, with dismay, that they're right: MS will continue to dominate PCs and therefore market share simply because their latest OS - irrespective of whether it's great or it's absolute crap - will come pre-inistalled. Here's what I'm hoping for: I hope for a day very soon that tablets will be highly capable stand alone machines with no need to even own a PC. Then, who cares if PCs come pre-installed with Windows? It'll be rendered irrelevant and the playing field will be leveled.

I read with interest and respect the very long rebuttal from Braden99. Lots of good, valid points! But my opinion - and that's all it is - is that Braden99 is very keen on tinkering (going as far as overclocking and investing in a very nice steel case!). I can honestly get behind that: I haven't done anything nearly as bold but I took the time and effort to hackintosh my Dell Mini 9 to OS X Snow Leopard and I use it as my primary machine because it's so convenient and stable (I'm typing this reply on it right now). But I realize something else: we're in the minority. The masses - the 99% if you will - are not going to want to tinker or mod or know anything even mildly "techie" about their machines. They just want them to work. They want appliances.

May the best OS win.
post #46 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by big View Post

I read the previous posts and realized, with dismay, that they're right: MS will continue to dominate PCs and therefore market share simply because their latest OS - irrespective of whether it's great or it's absolute crap - will come pre-inistalled. Here's what I'm hoping for: I hope for a day very soon that tablets will be highly capable stand alone machines with no need to even own a PC. Then, who cares if PCs come pre-installed with Windows? It'll be rendered irrelevant and the playing field will be leveled.

I read with interest and respect the very long rebuttal from Braden99. Lots of good, valid points! But my opinion - and that's all it is - is that Braden99 is very keen on tinkering (going as far as overclocking and investing in a very nice steel case!). I can honestly get behind that: I haven't done anything nearly as bold but I took the time and effort to hackintosh my Dell Mini 9 to OS X Snow Leopard and I use it as my primary machine because it's so convenient and stable (I'm typing this reply on it right now). But I realize something else: we're in the minority. The masses - the 99% if you will - are not going to want to tinker or mod or know anything even mildly "techie" about their machines. They just want them to work. They want appliances.

May the best OS win.

Bingo!
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
post #47 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden99 View Post

I know Photoshop is no problem to run on existing x86 tablets, like Asus EP121. Microsoft themselves actually wanted developers to do some app development on the Samsung tablet they give out a Build conference (which would include using Visual Studio and other development tools). I have heard of some 3D artists successfully using x86 tablets with 3D sculpting applications. By this time next year I expect Intel to have more competitive offerings. Personally I'm not to sure about the power of Intel's GPU solutions.

Well that's the point I'm trying to make.

Yes you can have an x86 based tablet. To look something like an iPad said tablet needs to be running an Atom processor, however to make it useful as an x86 based tablet you need something like a Core i3/i5/i7.

The Samsung tablet that was given out at BUILD was a Core i5 and had a fan. The Asus EP121 also has a Core i5 but it is also twice as thick as an iPad, twice as heavy and has half the battery life.

What I'm trying to say is that at the moment there is a trade off. If you want something in the same form factor as an iPad it's either ARM based (so you lose your "full PC") or Atom based (in which case it's not fast enough to be useful as a "full PC" anyway).

It's not until 2013 (maybe 18 months) that we will get something that looks like an iPad does today, but has the same grunt as a Core i5 driving it.
post #48 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Big deal - and no surprise.

All desktop OSs have gotten mature enough that there's no longer any great reason to upgrade. Going from Win3.1 to Win95 was nearly a no-brainer. Going from Windows Vista to Windows 7 was a no-brainer. Going from OS X 10.1 to 10.2 was an easy decision. OS X 10.4 to 10.5 was fairly easy.

Windows 7 to Windows 8? OS X Snow Leopard to Lion? Meh.

My parents have a later install of Vista and I've not seen any cause to upgrade, and we did have a coupon to upgrade for a very minimal fee at worst. I hadn't bothered to find that paperwork.

At least with Apple, the upgrade cost was very low the last two times. Windows? I really don't think so. It gets hard to justify the cost of an OS upgrade when the upgrade cost is close to the market value of the computer, even if it scores high on compatibility. Sure, I know it will likely work fine, but the benefit for the cost doesn't seem to be there.

I really have to wonder what fraction of users bother to upgrade their OS rather than just let it slide and eventually buy a new computer, which comes with the new OS included in the package, with a computer that should be well-suited for it rather than hoping you don't run into an incompatibility or otherwise unforseen limitation.
post #49 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden99 View Post

I will be upgrading from Windows 7 on my desktop, and also purchasing a tablet with Windows 8 at a later date. Most customers will get Windows 8 with a new system; more than 450 million people now have Windows 7 since launch, most as OEM versions. Customers who use Windows everyday will likely find value in upgrading to Windows 8, as I do.

There are many welcome improvements across the board, including in desktop mode, startup/boot experience, resource usage, hardware support etc. This is of course is an Apple fan site, so Im not surprised to see negative reactions to Windows, nor am I surprised to read carefully written articles that paint Microsoft plans and future in the worst light. I was once an Apple fan/user to, but personally I have seen the most innovation from Microsoft in recent years. Microsofts approach of sharing information, and getting customers involved in their products from an early stage is excellent, I enjoy reading how products are developed, not just reading predictable marketing rhetoric, labeling products magical, and insanely great.

So far I have found the Start Screen to be better suited for touch; however I'm starting to find I like it with mouse and keyboard (which is improving before beta). As with many others I was initially worried this new start screen would slow down launching tasks etc. But after using the developer preview some time, I have found it has made me faster at launching tasks, and searching than Win7. I also enjoy the new snapped metro apps in combination with full applications. The fact that all the customizations are saved into the cloud is great, when the Beta arrives groupings of applications, and semantic zoom will be enabled, giving a much richer start screen than Win7.

As someone who is power-user, I like the explorer ribbon, especially how it allows hotkeys for everything including floating tooltips which all activate dynamically, and a minimize mode, so you get the best of both worlds, a simplistic interface, with the equivalent of menu's, however more contextual, better layout, more visually rich, with hierarchy and grouping of tools - making explorer much more powerful than Finder in my opinion. There are other small thing some people would never notice, like you can now drag and drop into the breadcrumb hierarchy, the ribbon has many handy tools that used to be buried, now only requiring two clicks, or keyboard shortcuts. The task manager is also completely revamped, which any power user should be happy with. Other features like History Vault, give a more user friendly interface to backup/revert files (though personally I never found it that difficult in Win7), support for native VHD, USB3.0, ISO, zip, massive drives, improved hyper-v is also appealing to desktop users. Microsoft havent shown off the Windows Store yet or Xbox Live (something to replace games explorer), so there is still more features coming.

Personally I have been using Microsofts free Security Essential product for a couple of years, and had no issues with viruses etc. This will now be baked into Windows 8 as standard, this could have been done ages ago, but as everyone knows Microsoft was a target for anti-trust lawsuits (while ignoring companies like Apple).

Windows 8 is easily a much larger release in terms of features, for both desktop & touch features than any recent version of Mac OSX, so I dont think Apple fans should dismiss it as being a piece of junk. Because I think most objective reviewers would find the current state of Windows 8 to be ambitious, fresh, full of good ideas, but buggy and incomplete (as a developer preview should be). That said I hope for some improvements before Beta, some of which have already been implemented.

No one can predict whether Windows 8 tablet will sell very well or not. This is largely irrelevant to me, as Im only interested in a real operating system on a tablet, not a basic stripped down toyshop of apps (which is in fact great for many people, or if that is your primary need for a tablet). So far Microsofts strategy is the only one that works for me, and I suspect there will be many others with the same needs. I hope Apple decides to do a variation of iPad with Mac OSX, and then I would consider them as an option in the future.

There is no way i will downgrade from OSX Lion to a cloner Microsoft bug infested, unsecure, super expensive OS. No thanks.
Windows 7 has no bugs I have come across, with heavy usage and being a prime suspect to get a virus I have got nothing in the last 4 years (unsecure?). Yeah windows is expensive, but then my overclocked 2600K 4.6GHZ with Nvidia Geforce 580 3GB, is much faster and cheaper than any Mac, with a nice steel case to

you sure sound like a microsoft employee who is trying to popularize windows and convert a few mac users.

let me tell u I use the windows 7 at work and not only it's slow even with 4 gb of ram and it lags a lot, the ms office crashes ever so often and in all their mac-dock copying which is the new bar with the pop up windows, microsoft couldn't figure out how to show previews of their own word and excel files, meaning that if I have 10 excel files open and I hover over the pinned icon of Excel they all look like a green X and I have to tell the files apart by a truncated name which oftentimes is similar between files. Compare that with the elegant mac preview and you'll realize why windows will never equal mac.

and windows 8... gosh design was the last thing on their mind. just a couple of examples
- the convoluted wall full of post its and notes which the ms employee was proudly exhibiting as an inspiration for the new "metro" interface

- the fact that in their video where they were showing how the copy is done between files, they had two alternatives. the first one they showed I said "they nailed it. I'd love to see a copy file box present the info in such an elegant, succinct and informational way. But then no, they had to opt for the second version, which is only an ugly, tweaked version of their current version of the box, which only has the ability of choosing between two overlapping files. obviously a conservative manager, a committee decision, based on "don't change what's familiar". if that was their decision at the get-go, to not change what's familiar, (because you couldn't be wrong with keeping the status quo, can you, unless you copy apple, which has its merits), if that was their idea then it explains why windows 8 for computer users will largely look and feel like windows 7. Don't fix anything that's broken, just put some lipstick on a pig by using a huge start menu instead of the normal bar.. Ugly and dumb

When will ever microsoft invest in some design and have some original interface ideas?
post #50 of 132
I seriously doubt Microsoft will get tablets right with Windows 8 but I've started to think there's more room above the iPad, with more powerful and more full-featured tablets, than there is below it (with smaller, budget tablets). In that respect, Microsoft might be in the right market, at least.
post #51 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden99 View Post

There are already tablets available right now in the same form factor as iPad that are x86 with Windows on them (and for the last ten years in bulkier forms). I have heard Intel is bringing out a new mobile architecture every year. Oak Trail is the lastest available now, I believe the battery lasts 6-8 hours - but if you were rendering from Maya for instance I imagine less : ) . Obviously there is a trade off in battery life for the forseeable future with Windows x86 tablets, which I can live with in order to have a much more feature rich tablet. In any case art tablets like Cintiq need to be plugged into wall anyway.

you forgot to say nobody was buying those "feature rich" tablets, in fact the late Steve Jobs (RIP) made the point that iPad 1 (no cameras, no multitasking at the beginning) sold more in its first 9 months on the market than all the other x86 tablets did for the last decade.

quite a thrifty thing to overlook, don't you think?

Also battery life twice as much as the other tablets may seem trivial, but it makes the difference between carrying a charger with u during the day or not. And in fact, iPad has 2 separate batteries inside, look at the tear-downs, whereas all other tablets only seem to have one.
post #52 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


At least with Apple, the upgrade cost was very low the last two times.

That's true. Snow Leopard and Lion each cost only $29.

The cost of Windows is a joke.

There are a few games that I would like to play that are Windows only. There's no doubt that Windows always is going to have more games than Mac.

But for the cost of Windows, it's not even worth considering. No way would I ever pay what Windows costs, just to play a couple of games, even though I'd like to have those games. It's not worth it.

$29 is very un Apple-like prices. You'd think that Apple would be the expensive one, yet it is M$ with Windows that is charging people an arm and a leg for their OS.
post #53 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious View Post

Windows XP has sold over half a billion copies, and still commands about a third of the OS market ten years after it was released.

I'd say that's pretty good going for a Fisher Price product.

Yeah, there's a name for it. Monopoly.
post #54 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdylan View Post

microsoft couldn't figure out how to show previews of their own word and excel files, meaning that if I have 10 excel files open and I hover over the pinned icon of Excel they all look like a green X and I have to tell the files apart by a truncated name which oftentimes is similar between files.

You don't have Aero running.

Click on Start and in the Start Search type Check the Windows Experience Index. You should see something that looks like this.

Click on "Re-run the assessment" from the bottom right and wait about 5 minutes.

If that doesn't auto-enable Aero click on Start and in the Start Search type Find and fix problems with transparency and other visual effects and run the wizard.

If that still doesn't work you're either on a computer from 2005 (poor you ) or your network admins have inexplicably decided to turn Aero off.
post #55 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by big View Post

I read the previous posts and realized, with dismay, that they're right: MS will continue to dominate PCs and therefore market share simply because their latest OS - irrespective of whether it's great or it's absolute crap - will come pre-inistalled

As opposed to OSX - which does not come pre-installed?
post #56 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksons View Post

As opposed to OSX - which does not come pre-installed?

Of course it does. But Macs don't cost $149.
post #57 of 132
I just bought a netbook for my 6 year old son. The thing was only $160, but hey, he's only 6 and will probably drop it/use and abuse. I was very hesitant on Windows 7. I haven't owned anything Windows based in 8 years.

Anyhow, opened it the other night to setup for Christmas, and it was having all kinds of problems hooking into my network. Mind you, I have 4 Apple systems in my house and 2 iPads, and they all connect with no effort at all. Doesn't matter if I unplug, reboot, upgrade firmware, etc. They all connect every time with no effort.

In walks Windows 7 Starter. This is a POS right out of the gate. I can't imagine him opening for Christmas and the sorry thing takes two days and 3 calls to Gateway in order to make it work as intended. Just reaffirms that Microsoft just churns our junk each and every version, and if it weren't for their monopoly over big box computer companies and enterprise, they would have gone out of business a long time ago. A clone of something is and will never be as good as the original. I refuse to buy their Xbox, or anything else. I'll give my money to Sony or Samsung before MS.
post #58 of 132
and some people said Sinofsky is the next SJ....
....very-big-LOL....
....not even close
post #59 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

$29 is very un Apple-like prices. You'd think that Apple would be the expensive one, yet it is M$ with Windows that is charging people an arm and a leg for their OS.

You answered your own question there. When you say $29 is very un Apple-like, it's because you know you pre-paid the next 2 OS upgrade at Microsoft OS prices as part of your initial purchase.
post #60 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmvsm View Post

Yeah, there's a name for it. Monopoly.

Monopoly? Did Apple stop selling Macs?
post #61 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksons View Post

You answered your own question there. When you say $29 is very un Apple-like, it's because you know you pre-paid the next 2 OS upgrade at Microsoft OS prices as part of your initial purchase.

I'm not sure what you mean.

Do you mean that people who already bought and use Windows 7, will get Windows 8 for free?
post #62 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

You don't have Aero running.

Click on Start and in the Start Search type Check the Windows Experience Index. You should see something that looks like this.

Click on "Re-run the assessment" from the bottom right and wait about 5 minutes.

If that doesn't auto-enable Aero click on Start and in the Start Search type Find and fix problems with transparency and other visual effects and run the wizard.

If that still doesn't work you're either on a computer from 2005 (poor you ) or your network admins have inexplicably decided to turn Aero off.

I just opened my parallels version of win 7 ultimate on my 2 months old macbook air to show u what I mean. And I'm pretty sure it has aero as the web pages are showing small in those boxes both here and at work.

http://www.mypicx.com/12062011/excel_on_win7_aero/

and all I wish microsoft had for their own excel was a peek similar to this thing they have for webpages. was it so hard to do? really?

http://admintell.napco.com/ee/images..._Aero_Peek.jpg

seems like other ppl have problems with it too:
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/w...9-8bccc661cf3e

and if this is because excel I use is 2007 version then its unacceptable to not have this feature for a 2007 software released by ms itself
post #63 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmvsm View Post

I just bought a netbook for my 6 year old son......

So you don't touch anything Windows for 8 years, then buy a $160 netbook with Windows 7 Starter and you feel the poor experience you had means everything Microsoft make is crap (even the Xbox)?
post #64 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdylan View Post

I just opened my parallels version of win 7 ultimate on my 2 months old macbook air to show u what I mean. And I'm pretty sure it has aero as the web pages are showing small in those boxes both here and at work.

http://www.mypicx.com/12062011/excel_on_win7_aero/

and all I wish microsoft had for their own excel was a peek similar to this thing they have for webpages. was it so hard to do? really?

http://admintell.napco.com/ee/images..._Aero_Peek.jpg

seems like other ppl have problems with it too:
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/w...9-8bccc661cf3e

and if this is because excel I use is 2007 version then its unacceptable to not have this feature for a 2007 software released by ms itself

I know if the Windows Desktop Manager is restarted (e.g. due to switching users, resume from sleep/hibernate etc) the Aero Peek feature isn't available until you maximise the Window again.

However if you never see Aero Peek with Excel then I'm not sure what the problem is!
post #65 of 132
Microsoft Tablet PC was more than seven years earlier than iPad. It did not become popular. And for seven years Microsoft failed to improve on it like Apple did to iPad. This shows that Microsoft Tablet PC has problems. Of course the media do not know it. Because the media does not understand the PC technology. They are just Windows fans.
post #66 of 132
Every successful corporation goes through certain stages.

Apple is in its "Adolescence," finding its way without it's founder.

Microsoft is past "bureaucracy" on its way to "death". It's spending so much time trying to hold on to what it already has, that it isn't creating anything new. It's bloated and slow-moving, and it's losing ground in every direction.

This whole Windows 8 tablet misadventure is such a huge expenditure of money and energy and the public is, I think, very skeptical of Microsoft innovations at this point. I'm sure we can all rattle of a litany of Microsoft products and services that not only failed, but failed spectacularly.

Does anyone honestly think that Windows 8 and this tablet are going to be a success?

I would say that the board of directors needs to fire Ballmer, but I don't think bringing in someone new would make any difference. I'm betting that within 10 years, Microsoft gets a new CEO, is split into smaller companies and sold off piece by piece. Anyone want to give me odds?
post #67 of 132
A colleague at a non-profit where I am part-time rolled-his-own PC... Decent specs. Core i5, Radeon 5770 1GB, etc. Tried to turn it on, hanging at "Please wait..." before the Welcome screen.

Yes, there could be many reasons why this happened or what he messed up, but, really, Windows is EOL in so many ways. Just that people don't know it yet. Like fossil fuels

I tolerated Windows7 for three solid years because I managed to game on it. A few months ago, with my Xbox360, I now presumably never have to touch Windows unless necessary or for work-related purposes (even then...). You simply cannot quantify how amazing it is to simply go home, press the on button on the Xbox360, no internet connection needed, no endless upgrades, and just start playing the darn game just a few minutes after you turn on the Xbox360. "It just works"

Again, Apple, is just light years ahead. I'm typing this on a PowerPC G4 dual 1Ghz 1GB RAM, 10.4.11 here at the non-profit organisation. Made almost 10 years ago, it is still working nicely. Turn off Flash and Photoshop CS, iWork '09, Safari, Firefox seem to hum along alright. Oh, and it has Gigabit Ethernet. Back before it was cool. Beautiful machine. Assembled in Singapore, with lots of Japanese components too I'm sure.
post #68 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

I'm typing this on a PowerPC G4 dual 1Ghz 1GB RAM, 10.4.11 here at the non-profit organisation. Made almost 10 years ago, it is still working nicely.

Same here. I have multiple Macs, but one of them is a Power PC Quicksilver 933, that's about the same age as the one you mentioned. I don't use it all that often, since I have newer, faster Macs to use, but I have 10.4 (and OS 9) installed on it, and it still works as good today as the day I got it about 10 years ago. It still looks sexy.
post #69 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrobratt View Post

Every successful corporation goes through certain stages.

Apple is in its "Adolescence," finding its way without it's founder.

Microsoft is past "bureaucracy" on its way to "death". It's spending so much time trying to hold on to what it already has, that it isn't creating anything new. It's bloated and slow-moving, and it's losing ground in every direction.

This whole Windows 8 tablet misadventure is such a huge expenditure of money and energy and the public is, I think, very skeptical of Microsoft innovations at this point. I'm sure we can all rattle of a litany of Microsoft products and services that not only failed, but failed spectacularly.

Does anyone honestly think that Windows 8 and this tablet are going to be a success?

I would say that the board of directors needs to fire Ballmer, but I don't think bringing in someone new would make any difference. I'm betting that within 10 years, Microsoft gets a new CEO, is split into smaller companies and sold off piece by piece. Anyone want to give me odds?

Bill is still Chairman and that's probably the ONLY reason Ballmer is still CEO. Bill needs to step down, and let go of his baby. If he really wants to do philanthropy, he needs to let go completely of Microsoft and focus on that. Keeping a foot in the door is not helping Microsoft. Not that Bill Gates has a real vision, I admire what he has spent on many significant charities, but most recently earlier this year he was advocating the so-called "generation 4" nuclear reactors and he seemed to be caught in his own hubris... Of course I don't think nuclear power is the way but it was mainly Bill's attitude that was annoying. He seemed like he knew better than everyone. Maybe when Windows 2000 was king, but now, with Microsoft still with him as the ultimate boss, I think Bill's credibility in the tech space is low.

Ballmer's an easy target but the buck stops at Bill Gates. I am amazed how in so many companies the Board of Directors are virtually DOA. What they do, I have no idea. That's why in Steve's bio the first thing he did when going back to Apple was clear out the whole Board. Even then, we had that Judas Eric ~ what really did he do for Apple as a Director?
post #70 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Same here. I have multiple Macs, but one of them is a Power PC Quicksilver 933, that's about the same age as the one you mentioned. I don't use it all that often, since I have newer, faster Macs to use, but I have 10.4 (and OS 9) installed on it, and it still works as good today as the day I got it about 10 years ago. It still looks sexy.

Indeed. I mean, it's even called Quicksilver! Can you believe for over 10 years no PC case has ever come close to the G4 design? They had 10 years to copy it! Instead we have... well, I won't even bother posting pictures.

Quicksilver MDD was my ultimate favourite of the PowerMac G4s.
post #71 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher126 View Post

Way back when, every time I upgraded a windows OS, I always had issues. Usually, driver problems. With Mac upgrades, never had a problem. Not one!

I've been a Mac user or over a decade nd experience has taught me to never upgrade and software or firmware for Apple products for at least a week or two because inevitably the latest version will break something.

Whether it be an Airport Extreme, MacBook, iOS version, or OSX release, my experience has taught me to never jump on a new release.
post #72 of 132
Personnally, I am very grateful to Microsoft for having issued Vista, because it triggered my decision to entirely switch to Apple. I guess Windows 8 will have the same effect on many Windows users ...
post #73 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter View Post

Isn't the reason why Vista was skipped was because it was such crap, which is the same reason why Microsoft rushed to get Windows 7 out there?

Windows 7 is just Vista 2.0.
post #74 of 132
"mac-dock copying" = Actually just natural progression. Lose the text labels (you can turn them on again), and combine quick launch with main bar. Thumbnail previews were already in Vista. That said the Superbar in Windows 7, is superior to the dock, because they manage to intergrate Mac's funky top menu and status icons into one area. I find it truly cumbersome how the top menu doesn't travel with the application, especially when you have a very large monitor, and the application only takes up a fraction of the screen. Jumplists are also incredibly handy as well in Windows 7.

Excel 2010 allows multiple thumbnails, just checked on my system.

Windows would seem very expensive if you have already bought your overpriced Mac, and now want to dual boot

I understand some people do not have an optimal experience with Windows, but many times this is becuase people buy the cheapest netbooks, or complian with systems implemented/managed poorly by IT people, or some people simply lack experience and cannot learn an alternative way of doing things. I don't consider myself any expert by any means, but have had no issues some users speak of here, I have a lag/bug/virus free experience. Of course if someone has many Mac's and no PC's and suddenly adds a PC to the mix, it wont be perfect harmony. The same is true if you have a PC centric office, then try to add a Mac, perfect harmony just doen't happen between the platforms.

"Can you believe for over 10 years no PC case has ever come close to the G4 design?
I personally don't agree with this, there are some very nice looking PC cases these days, with high quality materials and build quality. However a lot of users forget the design of the interior. Many PC cases are more customistable, more easily upgradeable, with more options for fans, water cooling, graphic cards etc.

I expect by posting in an Apple forum I will be totally flammed, so i'm just going to leave this conversation to readers of this site. But I have enjoyed the thoughts from the other side of the fence. I enjoy following all exciting technology, so rest assured I will be also watching Apple's future progress with Mac OSX, and hope Apple can one day entice me back to OSX, but Windows 7 is just currently better, in my opinion. (Note: I use my PC for 3D asset creation, general purpose tasks and games).
post #75 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

Well that's the point I'm trying to make.

Yes you can have an x86 based tablet. To look something like an iPad said tablet needs to be running an Atom processor, however to make it useful as an x86 based tablet you need something like a Core i3/i5/i7.

The Samsung tablet that was given out at BUILD was a Core i5 and had a fan. The Asus EP121 also has a Core i5 but it is also twice as thick as an iPad, twice as heavy and has half the battery life.

What I'm trying to say is that at the moment there is a trade off. If you want something in the same form factor as an iPad it's either ARM based (so you lose your "full PC") or Atom based (in which case it's not fast enough to be useful as a "full PC" anyway).

It's not until 2013 (maybe 18 months) that we will get something that looks like an iPad does today, but has the same grunt as a Core i5 driving it.

Anyone with half a brain should realize that trying to run Windows desktop applications on a thin profile tablet will be fraught with compromises. Processor and battery technology just isn't up to that yet. These people that think they're going to have iPad-class Windows tablets that do double duty as a desktop computer are asking for too much. I'm fairly certain that Apple might have tried porting OSX to an iPad if it was that easy to do. I'm sure Apple realized that average consumers would not be happy with the result.

Apple isn't trying to impress tech-heads with some kludgy tablet that thinks it can do everything. Apple has likely clearly defined what can be comfortably done with each hardware form factor. I think those new MacBook Airs will be able to be used for both ARM and Intel processors without compromising too much on either chip platform. Apple is building products to target what consumers need unlike Microsoft which is actually trying to keep the Windows desktop metaphor going whether consumers want it or not. I do understand that there needs to be some backwards compatibility if businesses need to use those older files, but consumers probably don't care about that stuff.
post #76 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

The OS war is over..

MS won the OS war!

The new war is the Mobile OS war...

MS has yet to field an army...

The OS war may have already been won/lost!

I know Steve said that but I have a feeling the OS war is actually not over and in another few years OS X will still be gaining strength (albeit a version that is probably morphing closer and closer to iOS) and Windows sales will be dramatically declining.

On the Mobile OS front, count me as one that thinks MS won't get to the battle in time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by smalM View Post

Windows 7 is just Vista 2.0.

Frankly every time I use it I think it's more like XP 2.0 rather than Vista where at least MS tried to be slightly different and failed. They went backwards not forwards. Then that isn't surprising, they didn't develop it themselves in the first place so they have to keep edging back to what they stole from Apple to have anything that even half works.
Enjoying the new Mac Pro ... it's smokin'
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini.
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Enjoying the new Mac Pro ... it's smokin'
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini.
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post #77 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Indeed. I mean, it's even called Quicksilver! Can you believe for over 10 years no PC case has ever come close to the G4 design? They had 10 years to copy it! Instead we have... well, I won't even bother posting pictures.

What does the QS case have going for it, apart from looking like a spaceship?

I'd take my own PC case, the design of which goes back about 6 years, over the QS any day because my case is designed to be silent and if I recall correctly the QS was something of a vacuum cleaner. The most evolved designs of today like the Silverstone FT02 are on a whole another level.
post #78 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sofabutt View Post

I've been a Mac user or over a decade nd experience has taught me to never upgrade and software or firmware for Apple products for at least a week or two because inevitably the latest version will break something.

Whether it be an Airport Extreme, MacBook, iOS version, or OSX release, my experience has taught me to never jump on a new release.

Yup. Latest instance of this was when I, against my better knowledge, upgraded my Air from Snow Leopard to Lion shortly after Lion launch. Afterwards Dock process ate 100% of CPU. I did all the troubleshooting I could, including trashing caches, settings etc. At the end the only thing that worked was a total re-install of Lion.
post #79 of 132
Is it too soon to begin discussing Windows 9?
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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post #80 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden99 View Post

Vista got killed by early poor driver implementation by third-parties, and the fact that it got delayed so many times before release, while features were cut. The media then dragged out the perception of bad Vista forever after. Though it was true Vista didn't perform very well at all on super budget systems like cheap netbooks at the time, on any mid range or high end system it worked great.

If you look at the product itself a year after release on a decent system, it was a solid opearting system, with many new features, which modernised the ancient Windows XP, and formed the basis of Windows 7 - albeit missing some finesse, and performance improvements. So Vista wasn't really a nightmware product....like a lot people believe

Sorry dude, you sound like Ballmer's press secretary. Vista was junk, and drivers didn't have much to do with that. Many of what I consider the major problems with Vista - the clusterfuck that is Control Panel, the ugly and distracting interface - have carried right over to Windows 7. And a "decent system" for Windows Vista was, at the time, not the ones it was being supplied on...
My Android phone is the worst phone I've ever owned.
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My Android phone is the worst phone I've ever owned.
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