IDC predicts PC users won't upgrade to Windows 8, tablet sales will be "disappointing" - Page 3

If you need a keyboard you need a laptop, not a tablet.


No, they don't.

Most non-tech corporations (like insurance companies) just finished updating to Windows XP. Tech related companies are updating to Windows 7. I don't think enterprise wants anything to do with what Windows 8 is shaping up to be. Consumers might be more adventurous, but I don't think Windows 8 is going to have the uptake Microsoft needs. Windows 7 is simply good enough (a single Windows release in the last decade this can be said about).

I'm a MAC user and I can tell you that every upgrade presented "driver" problems. On the upside - most were updated in a very reasonable period of time.

But isn't that always the assumption/excuse? ..."next year, when the technology catches up". This is forever the promise of Windows. It's kludgy, and you need twice the speed and four times the RAM of a Mac just so you don't feel like you are wading through molasses.

There are these constant references to spec lists and how this or that Android tablet has the iPad beat because it uses the latest greatest hardware, quad core ARM processors, faster processors, 1GB of RAM or more instead of the 512MB on iPad... and yet, the actual UX shows iOS to be much smoother in practice. Just why does anyone think this is?

It is because Apple knows both hardware and software and is developing them in harmony! Besides, Apple is not just using off-the-shelf ARM processors. There is some custom silicon in its A4/5 chips of which the ARM CPU ref design is just a part. Apple has in-house experience with this and it has the guys from PA SemiConductor. And Apple is not standing still -- Apple is innovating all the time and tweaks all kinds of things including hardware acceleration using the GPU, and battery design life.

So, what, in the history of the world, gives you any confidence whatsoever that MS is just going to pull something unexpected right out of their hats when:
1) they have not previously managed to scale a desktop OS successfully to any other processor (and this is the second or third time for OS X); and they are only just now starting.
2) they have had little success with hardware and optimizing/integrating hardware and software. The whole approach of MS is a one-size-fits all approach... that's just how they roll. (I am using "one-size-fits" all in a diff sense than it is often used of Apple, which, while having a limited range of configurations, does indeed tailor each experience to each usage case; whereas, MS says you can have Windows everywhere, on anything, but it is the same old Windows).

BS. I'm sure there are some stragglers who have done some installations of XP on the last 1% of their closet computers in 2011 but the bulk of companies transitioned to XP a long time ago. Judging from W7's >20% marketshare, the bulk of tech related companies have been on W7 for a while.
http://www.readwriteweb.com/enterpri...enterprise.php

Companies which haven't done a W7 transition yet have no reason to go W7 when they can go W8 instead. Most consumers will get W8 with their next computer as usual, but more than before will update due to a substantially easier download/install process. It would also make sense for MS to set the prices lower than before, for the same reason Apple does.

the XBox is crap...50+% failure rate.

Let's hope. Then we could (sort of) have the mid range mid sized Mac we've been wanting for years.

Guess that makes windows phone the Playmobil (http://www.playmobil.de/) edition . Talk about age and developmental appropriateness.

windows 8, windows vista, windows me - the trifecta of os diasters

It's improved greatly. Except for playing from DVD. Be sure to install to hard disk. The discs, I think especially pre-owned, rattle like a beast.

For it's time the design was (and is) fantastic. Plus benefits like GigEthernet, USB and ADC~ one single cable for power and graphics signal. The noise factor was tolerable for its generation.

To compare to the evolved designs of today you'd have to look at the Mac Pro, that is the best "current era" PC case out there. The noise level of the Mac Pro is comparable to top-quality PC cases. The internal design is unmatched by any PC case, by branded manufacturer or custom case manufacturers.

Silverstone FT02? I'm sure it's a good case and I used to have a Silverstone 500W True Power thingy... but, the case design? Not sure what "level" it is at.



VS



(Note that the Mac Pro image is actually with the side panel REMOVED, while the Silverstone is with the panel ON. Also, the Mac Pro has the disc drives and USB+Front Audio ports shown, while the Silverstone is BEFORE the disc drives and USB/Front Audio ports are installed.

It might come down to a matter of taste, eg. a souped-up import with neon lights vs a stock Lamborghini.

Windows is dying. it will take a long while to clear out the carcasses but death is unavoidable. i have totally removed Windows and Office from my personal existence. if companies have money they should go with Apple. If not, then Linux.

Nonsense. As far as I know, Win7 incrementally improves upon Vista in every respect, and most of Vista's bad rep was from people cheaping out on hardware. I'm posting from a Vista desktop actually. Glad I went with it instead of XP.
Harmony is a red herring. Apple uses some of the fastest mass-produced hardware money can buy. The bulk of the difference comes from software maturity. Google just needs to catch up on that, and they seem to have covered most of the distance with Android 4.0.

Actual benefits from tight SW/HW integration do exist, but they are found mainly in battery life, battery-related and network-related behaviors. It's only major changes in interaction that depend on SW/HW integration. A recent example is Samsung's S-pen stylus, which combines hardware and software to deliver a substantially different experience than Android mainstream or Apple are able to.

"Have not previously managed" implies they have tried and failed, which is bullshit. They have successfully ported and sold Windows on several architectures, and have had no reason to port a full desktop environment. They have a smorgasbord of experience from miscellaneous hardware like the earlier mobile efforts, Zunes, and XBox. As for bringing the new environment to developers, developer support and tools offering has always been one of Microsoft's core technical strengths. Betting against them on this is nuts.

Well, they just threw all that out of the window with Windows 8 ARM.

Windows 8 does not include a newer driver model--it retains the one that was set forth in Vista and provides improvements.

Windows 8 is a weird beast. It's the baggage of Windows with the user interface of WP7, minus the user experience continuity of the classic Windows desktop. It does not seem particularly desirable.

It's speculative right now whether Windows 8 will fail. A decade or so ago, people assumed Microsoft was a juggernaut and they couldn't fail, but I think those days are behind us now. What's interesting is that Microsoft's strengths were support for their solution partners and enterprise customers, but with Windows 8 Metro flashiness, they seem to be going after Apple's stronghold on the consumer. Yay for competition, but their "new old thing" solution seems myopic, not inspired.

You don't need to be an absolute monopoly to illegally abuse your market dominance. Standard Oil had 68% of the US market when they were broken up. I don't know if Apple necessarily even competes directly against Windows computers, their price point is higher than the average Windows computer.

I do think that MS did abuse their monopoly, but that's not the whole story. The network effect of applications and ecosystem gives a strong disincentive to try something else, if you need a very specific app, the likelihood that it's offered on another platform is low. Often, file compatibility issues prevents the use of a similar program that's on other platforms. The cost of app development tends to discourage ports to other platforms.


I agree, but in comparison, I tend to wait a year or more before upgrading a Microsoft product. With MacOS, at least SuperDuper makes it trivial to back up the computer before upgrading (heck, it schedules boot drive backups for every week, every day or any combination of days), so I can go back just by switching the boot partition. The Windows equivalents that I've used are considerably more clumsy, often requiring a reboot to a separate program running on its own OS.

So?

.......

What have you seen? Have you used it?

I don't think so... too early in the life stage still...it's just beginning. All the players need to be in the game too. I wouldn't cut MS off so short not that I think they have anything that Gr8 either but I'm sure the shift my sway again between MS and Google once they are in and ICS fully infiltrate's into the system.

I didn't realise that to post on an Apple forum, you have to only like Apple products and believe that any competing product can't possibly be better than the Apple product in any way! I don't understand the 'them and us' mentality. Why shouldn't I like and use both Windows 7 and Mac OS X? They're both good products.

I'm registered here because I like Apple products - I own an iPhone 4 and an MBP - and I like discussing them. But I certainly wouldn't call myself an 'Apple person' any more than I'm a 'Microsoft person'. Unwavering loyalty to any multinational corporation - whether it's Apple or Microsoft - is cringeworthy and ridiculous. They're only interested in your money, not your technological happiness. Buy their products because they meet or exceed your needs, and buy someone else's products the minute they suit you better.

but with Windows 8 Metro flashiness, they seem to be going after Apple's stronghold on the consumerWindows 8 also contains incremental improvements across many aspects of the OS, and has performance and boot improvements, so there is no reason enterprise customers wont choose Windows 8 on new systems. Isnt Windows also a stronghold with the consumer? The (almost) 500 million Windows 7 sold, were not all to enterprise.

It's kludgy, and you need twice the speed and four times the RAM of a Mac just so you don't feel like you are wading through molasses.Maybe once upon a time, but I find Windows 7 runs on older hardware in a smoother way than any version of OSX. Windows 8 further reduces the performance foothold, requiring only slightly more than a few hundred megabyte of RAM. Most systems have at least 4GB these days, RAM is so cheap (well at least if your not getting an Apple system), I have 16GB in current system. But had no issues with my previous 4GB system.

major problems with Vista - the clusterfuck that is Control Panel, the ugly and distracting interface - have carried right over to Windows 7
Control panel may not be integrated into one user interface. But then you only have to start typing the name of something, and your taken right to the option you need. I use search 95% of the time to find the options I wont to change, and in my opinion the grouping of certain settings works well. I do believe Windows naturally has more settings/options to adjust, so requires a greater number of screen and groups than Mac OSX. The only time System Preferences on OSX has been superior to Windows, was during the XP era. I really dislike the flat view, with no categories, which can still be activated in Win 7.

Windows is dying. It will take a long while to clear out the carcasses but death is unavoidable. i have totally removed Windows and Office from my personal existence. if companies have money they should go with Apple. If not, then Linux.
Mac OSX is dying. It will take a long while to clear out the carcasses but death is unavoidable. i have totally removed OSX and iWork from my personal existence. If companies have money they should go with Microsoft. If not, then Linux.

The Corsair Obsidian 650D is a nicer looking case, yeah I agree that Silverstone case doesnt appeal to me at all. But the Mac Pro just looks so bulky and cluttered on the inside, dense with boxy subdivisions, and a design that hasnt changed for eons in the tech industry. I like the Corsair 650D case because it has a clean, subtle design, with excellent build quality and unique features, like hot swappable drive bay, tool-less and excellent cooling.

You're kidding right? With the window on the side? Who is that feature aimed at, people that want to rice it out with LEDs?

The Mac Pro compartments are for cooling, directing air flow from outside the case directly to the devices that need it, so each segment gets exactly the cooling it needs without unnecessary fan noise, and that heated air gets pushed outside the case so you avoid the "hot box" effect.

"You're kidding right? With the window on the side?"
You can get a version without the window. However what some Mac users dont realise is there is some very nice looking components these days, and most PC users don't put lights inside their computers (including myself), nor do they want to show off some crazy water cooling. It's just a nice feature to have for those who appreciate the design at a component level, and not hiding them in steel boxes. I use to love the design of Mac Pro from it's release to about 2007, then I got bored...

Modern PC cases don't need fully modular design to stay cool, there are cases that do that, like some of Antec cases, but in the long run I find these cumbersome, and more difficult to upgrade, small areas, difficult to get to, and no real extra cooling or sound reduction.

what driver problems? your printer, scanner? yahh, I think Christopher126 is talking about your vital drivers such as video card, wireless, network, sound - not peripheral add-ons. You never see missing drivers for video cards or IDE bus systems on a Mac unless you modded it.

A good case for its generation, yes. But the noise factor alone means it doesn't compete with the PC cases of today.

Mac Pro's case isn't comparable to a generic PC case in the sense that it doesn't do anywhere near as much. It only has to accept a very limited amount of components, and many of those components have been custom designed to fit the case. Neither does the Pro's case have to allow reaching all components, or assembling a system from scratch. Those advantages allow it to do stricter and more sophisticated compartmentalization than any generic case can. It is certainly the most complicated case around.

That said, I'm more impressed by the airflow design of FT02. If you think it's anything resembling a normal case, you didn't look at the internals.

Not sure what your point is, but I hope you realize there are non-windowed FT02's for normal people and windowed FT02's for the casemodders. You chose to post a picture of the latter, but without the components which would be the key part of that particular aesthetic.

Nope, the FT02's ports are on top.
Car analogies: always terrible.

I like the Mac Pro's case a little bit better visually than the FT02, but there isn't a big difference. Both are pleasantly featureless and unobtrusive gray (or black) boxes.

You may have become bored, but I still haven't seen a PC case remotely close to the Mac Pro case which is an impressive combination of aesthetics, industrial design and functionality.
http://store.storeimages.cdn-apple.c...ery-big-04.jpg

There are nearly no wires inside the case, HDs mate directly to the Motherboard.

Even with most of the rats nest hidden behind:
http://images.anandtech.com/gallerie...back_575px.jpg
The FT02 still has that assembled in someones garage look on the visible internals:
http://images.anandtech.com/gallerie...nals_575px.jpg

The FT01 looks nicer to me
Again with an option for no window

Yeah the Mac Pro still looks good, but as Gon mentioned, only has to support a very limited range of upgrades, and only needs to be provide access to certain areas. I don't think the Mac Pro is that amazing looking, certaintly once you factor in function and upgradeability, rather than only form.

While it's possible the expert who did this build worked in his garage, the phrase is misleading since this is pretty much the highest level of quality possible with generic components. "Garage" > "factory".

For comparison, here's what a desktop usually looks like from the factory (this individual is a Dell professional workstation).
http://images.anandtech.com/doci/4299/s-internals.jpg

Even iMacs and 'books, despite being extremely integrated machines, have had a good amount of visible wire leads over the years.

I have seen better cable management (including in my own system, which was built by a company allowing customized systems), but here are a few examples:
http://benchmarkreviews.com/images/r...T-Side-H70.jpg
http://i964.photobucket.com/albums/a...4/DSC_0524.jpg
http://benchmarks-reviews.com/comput...LI_example.jpg

& how does this look cleaner than the inside of a MacPro?

Yup, but nothing close to anything I've seen posted here. A snowflake & an avalanche are not the same thing.

Personal opinion, just as you have your opinion. As someone who opens up my system to add components etc, the Mac Pro looks cramped, and hides most of the motherboard and internal area, giving limited expansion options and space.

Does it really matter anyway, You Mac Pro users can't see into your computers, and have adverse reactions to windows to see the internal components, you are likely to only ever open up your system once or twice (or never). All the internal components on a PC are identical in quality (if not better), becauce Apple souce all their parts from the same source, and these aren't necessarily the most high end solutions.
Graphic cards have always been especially bad and expensive on Mac's, and SSD drives are currently only available from Apple, which are overpriced, and underperforming compared to the fastest SSD drives, all of which are compatiable with Windows 7.

Graphics objection I understand, but why do you say a Mac Pro must only use Apple's SSDs? What is with the "not compatible with Windows 7' line? Do you have a source for that?

If you look at something like the Asus Transformer you can see how the line between the two could be blurred.

No, every single option for expansion is made available to the user. Apple has custom logic boards and can choose the number of ports. It's all hidden because there's absolutely no reason anyone should need to see the logic board to upgrade a computer.


I love how you think you know what we are. And I take it you never saw the G5. Clear plastic panel inside the metal outer wall


Keeps getting better and better


Graphics card makers have always been especially bad at writing EFI drivers, despite its immense superiority over BIOS.


Your point being? No one with more sense than money buys hard drives from Apple. Just like you'd never buy upgrades from any Windows OEM.

I think this is extremely misleading. MS typically pushes its latest version of Server to Enterprise customers, who recently have been taking it just because it is most recent, not because it has great features or innovations. The server (and desktop) OS markets are mature.

My understanding is Lion OSX does not support any third party SSD with TRIM support, meaning over time your drive will become incredibly slow, say for example an OCZ Vertex 3, support for individual SSD is provided by Apple - But this may have changed as of now.
http://osxdaily.com/2011/06/27/trim-...c-os-x-10-6-8/

Also isn't the latest Mac Pro's only Sata 3GB/s, where very fast drives like Vertex 3 and others need 6GB/s for full speed. There are also other options for PCI-E SSD drives, that I doubt are as compatible as on Windows

How did this devolved into a debate about interior case aesthetics?


Actually, I can't help but be reminded of those tacky plastic covers that car companies put on top of their engine bays while reading the comments regarding the looks of the interior of the mac pro. see:

WTF: