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Mitt Romney for President - Page 11

post #401 of 693
2/20/12 at 8:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Sure I do, when there is no way to express your view effectively under existing laws. When a specific
Group of people, for instance, are being underrepresented, they need a means to speak out with a louder voice. Are tax objectionists underrepresented?

So there are exceptions to adherence to the "social contract?" Huh. OK.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #402 of 693
2/20/12 at 8:34pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well, so much for polite disagreement. I tried.

How does your method account for human selfishness? How does it account for the sociopaths? How does it account for corporate sociopaths? You NEVER are able to give a satisfactory answer for any of that.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #403 of 693
2/20/12 at 8:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

How does your method account for human selfishness? How does it account for the sociopaths? How does it account for corporate sociopaths? You NEVER are able to give a satisfactory answer for any of that.

Yes, with a world filled with selfish sociopaths, we ought to have an extremely large, powerful and pervasive entity with tremendous power of force and coercion that can be filled with them. That's probably the best answer to our societal problems.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #404 of 693
2/20/12 at 8:59pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes, with a world filled with selfish sociopaths, we ought to have an extremely large, powerful and pervasive entity with tremendous power of force and coercion that can be filled with them. That's probably the best answer to our societal problems.

The sociopaths already have a lot of the control. They own many of the corporations. They are many of the corporations themselves (thanks to corporate personhood). Universal healthcare shifts power over life and death back to the common citizen and away from the insurance companies.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #405 of 693
2/20/12 at 9:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The sociopaths already have a lot of the control. They own many of the corporations. They are many of the corporations themselves (thanks to corporate personhood).

And the governments. Which, incidentally, is how those sociopaths are able to get and keep control.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Universal healthcare shifts power over life and death back to the common citizen and away from the insurance companies.



That's pretty simplistic and naive.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #406 of 693
2/20/12 at 9:02pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
One is not free to have life, liberty, and pursue happiness if one is denied the first by society scoffing and turning its back.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #407 of 693
2/20/12 at 9:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

One is not free to pursue life, liberty, and happiness if one is denied the first by society scoffing and turning its back.

Non sequitur.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #408 of 693
2/20/12 at 9:09pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Non sequitur.

Not at all. When society has the resources to save a life but does not, there's a problem. Epicurus said it best about god:

Quote:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

I think it also applies to society, albeit slightly modified and not nearly as poetic.

If society is willing to prevent harm, but not able, then it's not perfect and must continue to strive to improve.

If society is able, but not willing, then that society is malevolent.

If society is both able and willing, humanity wins.



MJ, your brand of politics leads to a malevolent society. That's not OK.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #409 of 693
2/20/12 at 9:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

MJ, your brand of politics leads to a malevolent society.

Thanks for sharing your opinion. I disagree that my desire for liberty leads to a malevolent society. On the contrary, it's my opinion that your desire to use force to achieve your goals can only ultimately destroy true society. But, I guess we just see things quite differently.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #410 of 693
2/20/12 at 9:29pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Thanks for sharing your opinion. I disagree that my desire for liberty leads to a malevolent society. On the contrary, it's my opinion that your desire to use force to achieve your goals can only ultimately destroy true society. But, I guess we just see things quite differently.

If your society is able but not willing to help the sick and the poor, that's malevolence.


I really do hate the "if you don't like it, get out" argument...but when it comes to something this fundamental, I feel like it might be for the best.

*draws a line in the sand*

Everyone who believes in the social contract on this side. Everyone who doesn't on the other. It's not working out. We need a divorce. Pack your shit.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #411 of 693
2/20/12 at 9:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

And the governments. Which, incidentally, is how those sociopaths are able to get and keep control.

Yeah, businesses and individuals never exhibit sociopathic behavior. Whatever.
All sarcasm aside, lawful sociopathic behavior in government; lawful sociopathic behavior in businesses; lawful sociopathic behavior in individuals: how are these controlled?
1: Through our voting system and the triumvirate system.
2: Through market forces.
3: Through social systems.

Which of these is easiest to control? Definitely not market forces. To think that is naive and ignorant.

Quote:
That's pretty simplistic and naive.

You're calling others naive when you put all your faith in market forces and the generosity and good will of the individual?
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post #412 of 693
2/20/12 at 9:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

If your society is able but not willing to help the sick and the poor, that's malevolence.


I really do hate the "if you don't like it, get out" argument...but when it comes to something this fundamental, I feel like it might be for the best.

*draws a line in the sand*

Everyone who believes in the social contract on this side. Everyone who doesn't on the other. It's not working out. We need a divorce. Pack your shit.

Let's give 'em Texas. Seriously.
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post #413 of 693
2/20/12 at 10:02pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Let's give 'em Texas. Seriously.

We'll have to sacrifice and evacuate Austin, but I'm sure we could manage. Yes, let's.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #414 of 693
2/21/12 at 6:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

If your society is able but not willing to help the sick and the poor, that's malevolence.

I agree. Where we disagree is in your conclusion that "my" society would end up being like that. This is merely your dystopian speculation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I really do hate the "if you don't like it, get out" argument...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Pack your shit.

But you'll use what you hate anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

We need a divorce.

Hey, I'm actually in favor of secession and the splitting of the U.S. (peacefully) into smaller regional entities. That won't happen peacefully though. In large part due to the authoritarian tyranny of the federal government of the U.S.

We could have a situation where you can try "your" society and we could try "mine." within the U.S. (in different states with free trade and movement between those states) if there was some actual respect for limits on the powers of the federal government, states rights and the 10th amendment to the constitution.

But oh well.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #415 of 693
2/21/12 at 6:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yeah, businesses and individuals never exhibit sociopathic behavior. Whatever.
All sarcasm aside, lawful sociopathic behavior in government; lawful sociopathic behavior in businesses; lawful sociopathic behavior in individuals: how are these controlled?
1: Through our voting system and the triumvirate system.
2: Through market forces.
3: Through social systems.

Which of these is easiest to control? Definitely not market forces. To think that is naive and ignorant.



You're calling others naive when you put all your faith in market forces and the generosity and good will of the individual?

So we disagree. That's fine.

P.S. I'll note that your desire here is for control of people. That's not mine. While I agree that government must be controlled because of the special place it has in society as the one entity with a monopoly in the use of force, those others...not so much.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #416 of 693
2/21/12 at 7:55am
Something for everyone here. But here are some key points:

Quote:
What is that one thing we know we can do to affect change? Quite simply set the very best example we, as an individual, possibly can. For each of us to act responsibly, thoughtfully, politely, respectfully, and treat others as we would like to be treated. How original! I think we all have heard and read this somewhere before. In fact, "several somewheres and many times. So, to preserve and enhance civilization it truly does coalesce into self-governing. Each of us as an individual resisting the urge to force other people to do what we think they should and instead set the best example we can of good behavior. This is the one thing we can do to further a civilization. Forget the false idea of society doing anything. There is no such thing. There are only individuals that interact with one another. How each individual behaves is what determines the positive or negative direction of civilization.

  1. Civilized people do not murder, rape, steal and lie, but less obvious is not giving support to that action in others, particularly those who hold political power.
  2. A moral person may be trapped by laws and even the threat of imprisonment, but one can speak out (so far) and protest uncivilized policies.
  3. Recognize the worth and unique value of each individual.
  4. Do not pass along or laugh at jokes that condone bad ideas or spread gossip and rumors.
  5. Recognize that distributing public largess is actually theft and do not encourage it.
  6. If you are the recipient of charity, pay it back as soon as possible, even if not monetarily.
  7. Give no encouragement to people who are using intimidation and fear to force their ideas on others.
  8. Call out people, politely if possible, who speak in half truths, stretch the truth or overstate their case.
  9. People or groups who use stereotypes to make their case are perpetuating injustice; avoid them.
  10. Be wary of people who ask you to turn over your decision making responsibilities to them.
  11. Be suspicious of people who brag about their altruism and religiosity.
  12. Be extra cautious when people's ideas need the force of government rules in order to succeed.
  13. Analyze carefully the unintended consequences of what people propose to do politically and what the impact might be if their ideas are implemented.
  14. Using government force to resolve problems does not work, and piling on only creates more problems.
  15. Seek out and practice voluntary solutions and exchanges.
  16. Ask yourself if the person claiming they need to be in charge seems to be too eager to be in charge.
  17. If you vote, do not vote to take away self-regulation of others.
  18. Never vote for policies that will steal from one group to give to another group.
  19. Do not give away your vote lightly as your vote is a statement of your values, not your betting expertise.
  20. If you vote, take the act seriously. You are not betting on the winner of a football game, but giving power.
  21. Always remember, power is more addictive than any drug known to mankind.

Quote:
Sages through out history and in many cultures and philosophies have observed and taught that merely setting a positive example is highly desirable and seems to have a large influence on other people's behavior. Realizing this is actually a great relief. The actions that will encourage civilization will, at the same time, enhance our own lives. It is not some mysterious secret but rather each of us taking responsibility for our own actions. Not easy, but well within the realm of the possible for us all as we strive to live those very values which exemplify civilized behavior.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #417 of 693
2/21/12 at 3:03pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

No, people deserve healthcare because it's the fucking humane thing to do--when we have the resources to heal the sick and we choose not to...that's evil.

Originally posted by SDW2001: " Their ability to define this non-existent social contract comes from...you guessed it...their inherent moral superiority. "


Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Wait a second...are you proposing to force your morality onto others?

Yes, he is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You have no safety net. People will fall and die. Your method is shit. Your method isn't a method at all. It's fend for yourselves and maybe someone might be nice and help. Except it's not happening.

I can't speak for MJ, but I support a safety net. Secondly, your method forces people to "help." That, contrary to what liberals claim, is NOT "what Jesus would do."
To save time, assume I know everything.
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To save time, assume I know everything.
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post #418 of 693
2/21/12 at 4:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I can't speak for MJ, but I support a safety net. Secondly, your method forces people to "help." That, contrary to what liberals claim, is NOT "what Jesus would do."

During the entire life of Jesus, a government existed that collected taxes. Did he ever refuse to pay? Did he ever use force against the government? Did he ever even make the claim that the government was illegitimate?

Did he ever use force against immoral businessmen?

Jesus has a hell of a lot more in common with OWS than the Tea Party.
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post #419 of 693
2/21/12 at 6:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

We're not talking about status, or when abortion should be legal. We're talking about when life begins, and that is all.




MJ responds to this better than I could. See below.



Agree with you 100%. In fact, this discussion is proof positive of my statement that the left refuses to acknowledge ANY argument that does not work to the benefit of their ultimate goal (in this case, unlimited abortion). As I wrote previously, we can discuss when abortion should be legal/illegal. That's another argument. But tonton, BR and jimmac cannot do that. They won't acknowledge that life begins at conception because that means abortion is taking a life...and they are not having any of that.





Why wouldn't you? Upon fertilization, the egg starts dividing (reproducing) almost immediately. It is a developing life form even before implantation. that which is not alive does not divide/reproduce. Keep in mind, I'm not using this to state that I think abortion should be illegal. That's another matter.




Oh boy. Now we're getting into semantics. Is a fertilized egg alive or not?



Agreed.




Whatever...out of context.



Here we go again. You liberals get yourselves all twisted up in semantics and backtracking. Were you or were you not arguing that life doesn't begin at conception?




It's not irrelevant. It's not the only facet, either.

Quote:
Why wouldn't you? Upon fertilization, the egg starts dividing (reproducing) almost immediately. It is a developing life form even before implantation. that which is not alive does not divide/reproduce. Keep in mind, I'm not using this to state that I think abortion should be illegal. That's another matter.

Well now we're getting into how do you define what's human?

Most people say that what sets us apart is self awareness. Now it's been proven that animals have a degree of selfwareness but not to the same degree as a human. The human fetus goes through many stages before becoming human enough to be capable of being selfaware so I'd say it's much later than conception. Until then it's really not much different than any other kind of fetus. And at the early stages not much more than tissue with potential.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #420 of 693
2/21/12 at 6:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

During the entire life of Jesus, a government existed that collected taxes. Did he ever refuse to pay? Did he ever use force against the government? Did he ever even make the claim that the government was illegitimate?

Be careful about your interpretation of the "render unto Caesar..." exchange.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Did he ever use force against immoral businessmen?

You know I don't recall Him using or advocating force against anyone except when they had dishonored the temple. In fact Jesus never forced himself on anyone. Maybe you recall the story about his interchange with the rich young ruler. Jesus said to him:

Quote:
If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.

But...

Quote:
When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

The implication is that he didn't follow Jesus' instructions. But we don't we also on't have any follow up passage that suggests Jesus then told a bunch of people to go take the man's money and give it to the poor. He didn't go all BR on the young man. He let the man make his own choice and live with the eternal consequences of his choice.

Yes, Jesus did command people to help the poor. But His instructions about caring for the poor and widows were instructions to individuals. He didn't say..."Why don't you go out and make a bunch of other people to help the poor." or "Go take a bunch of money from everyone else to give to the poor." He called for each of us individuals to be generous and helpful and caring.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Jesus has a hell of a lot more in common with OWS than the Tea Party.

Of course he does...because it suits your argument.

I would say that Jesus would defy connection with almost any political movement or group. After all His kingdom is not of this world.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #421 of 693
2/21/12 at 6:59pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
See, there is only one life to live. You have ZERO evidence of any afterlife. If someone is suffering...here...and now...it is our duty as a society to help that person. We don't have time to wait for some nonexistent posthumous punishment of the selfish fucks while we have the resources NOW to help people NOW.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #422 of 693
2/21/12 at 7:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

If someone is suffering...here...and now...it is our duty as a society to help that person.

It is our duty as individuals. Start by doing your part. My family and I are trying to do our part. Of course it is fine to encourage other to do the same (which, by the way, is what every church I've ever attended tries to do to thousands and thousands of people.) In fact the current church I attend is actively involved with many efforts to help the poor locally and globally.

What are you doing besides bitching about Christians and whining about what other people are or not doing to live up to your expectations?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #423 of 693
2/21/12 at 7:34pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Society is a group of individuals working together to do as one what is impossible to do separately.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #424 of 693
2/21/12 at 7:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Society is a group of individuals working together to do as one what is impossible to do separately.

Yes. So go work together with some other individuals to help those you care most about and quite whining about how everyone else is not living up to your standards.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #425 of 693
2/21/12 at 7:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Be careful about your interpretation of the "render unto Caesar..." exchange.

I know, since it is in exact opposition to your philosophy, the clear meaning must be wrong, and there should be some hidden, difficult to decipher secret meaning in there somewhere that fits better with your view. I'll be careful!

But I didn't even mention that passage. I asked you if Jesus paid his taxes and if he ever said taxes were wrong. Did he?
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post #426 of 693
2/21/12 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I know, since it is in exact opposition to your philosophy, the clear meaning must be wrong, and there should be some hidden, difficult to decipher secret meaning in there somewhere that fits better with your view. I'll be careful!

And what is the "clear meaning"?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

But I didn't even mention that passage. I asked you if Jesus paid his taxes and if he ever said taxes were wrong. Did he?

No, but you were alluding to it.

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post #427 of 693
2/21/12 at 7:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

And what is the "clear meaning"?

That taxes should be paid because the government is part of the Lord's master plan. It's plain as day unless you're in denial or trying to obfuscate.

Quote:
No, but you were alluding to it.

Actually I wasn't. You're just obsessed with it because it's a thorn in your side. You still haven't answered my question. Did Jesus pay his taxes? Did he ever refuse to pay taxes? Did he ever say taxes were wrong?

So tell me. What would Jesus do?
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post #428 of 693
2/21/12 at 7:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

That taxes should be paid because the government is part of the Lord's master plan. It's plain as day unless you're in denial or trying to obfuscate.

Actually what he send was to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's. So what is Caesar's and what is God's?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You're just obsessed with it




Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Did Jesus pay his taxes? Did he ever refuse to pay taxes? Did he ever say taxes were wrong?

So tell me. What would Jesus do?

You can read exactly what he did and said:

Quote:
After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?"
"Yes, he does," he replied.

When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own sons or from others?"

"From others," Peter answered.

"Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him. "But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."

and

Quote:
Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are. Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"
But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"

"Caesar's," they replied.

Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.

So the more interesting question is...what is Caesar's and what is God's?

But what is your point? I pay my taxes.

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post #429 of 693
2/21/12 at 8:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Actually what he send was to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's. So what is Caesar's and what is God's?

You can read exactly what he did and said:

So the more interesting question is...what is Caesar's and what is God's?

But what is your point? I pay my taxes.

Try Romans 13.
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post #430 of 693
2/21/12 at 8:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Try Romans 13.

Yes, I've studied it. Heard many sermons on it. Read many opinions on it. What of it? Are you claiming there's only one valid interpretation of that text?

Why does any of this matter to you? Are you considering your faith in God? Or are you simply selectively using Bible verses to beat others into submitting to what you think they should do according to your interpretations of them?

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post #431 of 693
2/21/12 at 8:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

... selectively using Bible verses to beat others into submitting to what you think they should do according to your interpretations of them?



Yeah, no one ever does that! Except Liberals!
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post #432 of 693
2/21/12 at 8:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post



Yeah, no one ever does that! Except Liberals!

I never claimed that.

However it does appear to be what you are trying to do.

You also only seem to be allowing for your interpretation of certain passages ignoring that there are other potentially valid interpretations that differ from yours. You also seem to think that these passages bind people in ways that they likely don't.

For example, I do pay my taxes...but that doesn't mean I am disallowed from arguing for lower taxes and more appropriate use of those taxes. I do submit to the government but I don't find any scripture that disallows me from objecting to many of its immoral actions. I do believe that we are commanded by God to help the poor (as individuals), but that doesn't mean I agree that help through the government is the best approach or even helpful at all (in fact I believe that government-based "help" for the poor is the worst way to help the poor) nor does it means that I should interpret a personal command to me as permission to go out and force everyone else to do what I've been commanded to do.

Make sense?

Anyway I am doing things to help the poor. What are you doing? BR, what about you?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #433 of 693
2/21/12 at 8:49pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Try Romans 13.

I love how he's totally ignoring that this, for christians, not only legitimizes government, but also condemns their hatred and mistreatment of homosexuals.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #434 of 693
2/21/12 at 8:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I love how he's totally ignoring that this, for christians, not only legitimizes government, but also condemns their hatred and mistreatment of homosexuals.

I love how my addressing his question about it is the same as totally ignoring it.

I love how in order to be not ignoring it I must agree with your interpretation of a passage (out of context) that has had a variety of interpretations.

I love the implication that I somehow hate or mistreat homosexuals.

But, speaking of ignoring, what are you doing to help the poor?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #435 of 693
2/21/12 at 8:58pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
I'm not going to get involved in your diversionary dick measuring contest. I'm glad that you think your church is helpful. Of course, if it promotes scientific ignorance, the harm it causes society must also be balanced by whatever assistance it provides. Furthermore, if that assistance comes with strings attached--sermons, pressure to join, et cetera--that help is of the self-serving variety...not out of a feeling of obligation to society, but out of prosthelytization.

So please, keep it in your pants, MJ. When society has the shared resources to feed the hungry and heal the sick, but doesn't, that's a terrible society to argue for. Stop pretending that the government is not an integral part of society.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #436 of 693
2/21/12 at 9:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I'm not going to get involved in your diversionary dick measuring contest.

So I'll assume you're doing nothing except bitching about Christians and whining bout what other people aren't doing to live up to your high standards (which, apparently, are for them and not you.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Of course, if it promotes scientific ignorance, the harm it causes society must also be balanced by whatever assistance it provides.




Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So please, keep it in your pants, MJ.

Your crudeness aside my point wasn't to brag but to point out that I (and many others) do help the poor as commanded by God but not even specifically because its a command...but because we genuinely care and are able to help, so we do. No coercion is required. No browbeating by hypocritical liberals necessary. We do it because we care.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

When society has the shared resources to feed the hungry and heal the sick, but doesn't, that's a terrible society to argue for.

I agree. But it is merely your opinion that that's what I argue for.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #437 of 693
2/21/12 at 9:08pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So I'll assume you're doing nothing except bitching about Christians and whining bout what other people aren't doing to live up to your high standards (which, apparently, are for them and not you.)

Again, your assumption would be false. But I'm still not participating in your diversionary penis measuring contest though. Stop trying to look at mine. No means no.

There's no point in this discussion because you don't even believe in the premise of a social contract. Everything else stems from that. You disagree so you can get the fuck out and start your own society that has no social contract. Enjoy Somali Texas. Please. Leave.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #438 of 693
2/21/12 at 9:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Again, your assumption would be false. But I'm still not participating in your diversionary penis measuring contest though. Stop trying to look at mine. No means no.

Is it a compulsion for you to be crude like this?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

There's no point in this discussion because you don't even believe in the premise of a social contract. Everything else stems from that.

I agree. We both see things quite differently and neither of us is likely to convince the other of our point of view. That's okay with me. We can disagree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You disagree so you can get the fuck out and start your own society that has no social contract. Enjoy Somali Texas. Please. Leave.

You seem to be a very bitter and angry person who's incapable of polite disagreement. I hope, someday, you get past that.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #439 of 693
2/21/12 at 11:16pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Is it a compulsion for you to be crude like this?

Cock.

Quote:
I agree. We both see things quite differently and neither of us is likely to convince the other of our point of view. That's okay with me. We can disagree.

Except, you disagree with the most fundamental part of being in a civilized society--or any society really. When you jump to "taxes are theft" like you and Jazz so frequently do, there isn't really room for any discussion at all. You, Jazzy, and other like-minded folks really should just form your own society (which will have a social contract whether you like it or not, but you all can pretend that no such thing exists). I don't want to live in your Somali Wild West Dystopia.


Quote:
You seem to be a very bitter and angry person who's incapable of polite disagreement. I hope, someday, you get past that.

I hope, someday, you stop promoting superstition over science. Now matter how vulgar I get, it will never match the vulgarity on display in a creationist museum.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #440 of 693
2/21/12 at 11:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Cock.

So the answer is yes, crudeness is a compulsion for you. This probably doesn't help people to take you more seriously.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Except, you disagree with the most fundamental part of being in a civilized society--or any society really.

That's your perception of our disagreement and my views.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

When you jump to "taxes are theft" like you and Jazz so frequently do, there isn't really room for any discussion at all.

Well, it's not really that much of a leap when you break it down to its essence. But, I respect that you disagree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I don't want to live in your Somali Wild West Dystopia.

Again, we disagree about the end result of our different political-economic philosophies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I hope, someday, you stop promoting superstition over science. Now matter how vulgar I get, it will never match the vulgarity on display in a creationist museum.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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