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post #481 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Here's what you really said about my statement : Which is of course not even close to what I said. Obfuscation.

OK. So I have clarified my question:

Is there any evidence that a human fetus has ever has become anything but a human?

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post #482 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I'm not entirely sure you are 100% correct there, though again admittedly biology is not my field of expertise. What do you mean by it could become anything?

At certain points in it's development the human fetus reflects the same characteristics of many animals. As a matter of fact the fetus of those animals are the same in appearance from those animals. From then on because of it's genetics it progresses to a human. But the point is at those times it's not really human yet. I brought this up because of the original contention by SDW or in mj's case the implication.
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post #483 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

At certain points in it's development the human fetus reflects the same characteristics of many animals. As a matter of fact the fetus of those animals are the same in appearance from those animals. From then on because of it's genetics it progresses to a human. But the point is at those times it's not really human yet.

You are now making the claim that because a human fetus as a certain stage of development resembles other life forms or animals in some of it characteristics that it therefore not human. This is a non sequitur.

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post #484 of 693
Do you believe in a soul, MJ?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #485 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

OK. So I have clarified my question:

Is there any evidence that a human fetus has ever has become anything but a human?

No. But that isn't what I was saying.

And you know that already. BR got it. You're not stupid. Just afraid to be tied down to a position.
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post #486 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Do you believe in a soul, MJ?

Yes I do.

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post #487 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

No. But that isn't what I was saying.

And you know that already. You're not stupid.

You said it could become anything. What does that claim mean other than it could become something that is not human?!

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post #488 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes I do.

Bravo! You said something definite!
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post #489 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Just afraid to be tied down to a position.

What position am I afraid to be tied down to?!?! I've already said clearly that I believe human life begins at conception and I provided scientific facts that I believe support that belief.

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post #490 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Bravo! You said something definite!

So have you...but then you've tried to back away from it or at least muddy what you claimed.

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post #491 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You said it could become anything. What does that claim mean other than it could become something that is not human?!

Ok. I should have said potentially anything since potentials seem to be so important to the conservative side of this argument. But because of it's Chromosomes it goes on to become human. But the point is at that juncture it's not human yet.
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post #492 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So have you...but then you've tried to back away from it or at least muddy what you claimed.

Sorry but no. You tried to turn what I claimed into something else by playing stupid. I've clarified in the above post for you.
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post #493 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Ok. I should have said potentially anything since potentials seem to be so important to the conservative side of this argument.

Frankly that change in wording doesn't change the meaning of what you're claiming. Let me ask as clearly as possible:

Are you claiming that a human zygote, embryo or fetus can ever grow and mature into anything but a human being?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

But the point is at that juncture it's not human yet.

In what way is it not human? It has human DNA (its own, in fact, different from both mom and dad but related). As it grows it takes on all of the characteristics of a human being. In what way it is not a human life?

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post #494 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes I do.

On what evidence?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #495 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

On what evidence?

I don't have direct, scientific evidence. It is a belief.

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post #496 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

What position am I afraid to be tied down to?!?! I've already said clearly that I believe human life begins at conception and I provided scientific facts that I believe support that belief.

Quote:
I provided scientific facts that I believe support that belief

Let's hear those again. It shouldn't be hard for you.
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post #497 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I don't have direct, scientific evidence. It is a belief.

A ha! We have a winner!

Finally we get to the heart of things.
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post #498 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Let's hear those again. It shouldn't be hard for you.

You can scan through the thread. I'm not your copy/paste bitch.

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post #499 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I don't have direct, scientific evidence. It is a belief.

And what is a soul anyway? Come up with a falsifiable definition or else your belief is not only unfounded but meaningless.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #500 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Aha! We have a winner!

A winner for what?

Do you believe in a soul? Why? Why not?

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post #501 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And what is a soul anyway? Come up with a falsifiable definition or else your belief is not only unfounded but meaningless.

You'd be right if scientific knowledge was the only knowledge that existed.

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post #502 of 693
What is a soul anyway?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #503 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

A winner for what?

Do you believe in a soul? Why? Why not?

I believe that the body contains energy that we may not fully understand at this point but not in the cut and dried Christian belief of a soul. There's absolutly no proof of that train of thought.
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post #504 of 693
Do you plan to answer my question?

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post #505 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

What is a soul anyway?

I'd say that's a whole other metaphysical, spiritual line of discussion.

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post #506 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You'd be right if scientific knowledge was the only knowledge that existed.

You claim to have another kind? And isn't knowledge something that can proven and learned. Not just belived in?
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post #507 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I believe that the body contains energy that we may not fully understand at this point but not in the cut and dried Christian belief of a soul.

Energy has a very specific scientific meaning. If you are not referring to the work required to move a mass as you apply a force over a distance, then you need to define what you mean.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #508 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

You claim to have another kind?

Oh dear.

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post #509 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'd say that's a whole other metaphysical, spiritual line of discussion.

Except, it's relevant. I'm guessing that part of your issue with abortion has to do with the soul.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #510 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Oh dear.

Jim, he never gave up on his imaginary friends--and he thinks that whatever garbage the voices in his head feeds him, if he believes it SUPER DUPER HARD ENOUGH, it somehow is also true.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #511 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Except, it's relevant. I'm guessing that part of your issue with abortion has to do with the soul.

So you're getting to the question of what makes a human human. Is it the soul that does so? If so, does this living being in a womb have a soul?

Right?

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post #512 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Jim, he never gave up on his imaginary friends--and he thinks that whatever garbage the voices in his head feeds him, if he believes it SUPER DUPER HARD ENOUGH, it somehow is also true.

As I've always suspected.

Well I'm sorry but there's something interesting on the Science Channel. Gotta go. We'll talk later. BR, MJ it's been revealing
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post #513 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So you're getting to the question of what makes a human human. Is it the soul that does so? If so, does this living being in a womb have a soul?

Right?

I contend that any discussion of a soul is meaningless and should not be allowed to be used in any legal argument as long as it remains in the realm of fantasy. It stays in the realm of fantasy until you come up with a falsifiable definition.

But I'm not fucking stupid, either. I see what bothers so many Christians about abortion. They believe in souls. They think the soul arrives immediately. They think abortion is murder because that soul loses its vessel.

All ridiculous bullshit that should NOT ENTER ANY PUBLIC LEGAL DEBATE unless a soul is defined, quantified, and proven to exist.

If the strength of your religious conviction is used to determine legal debates, you might as well just enact that Sharia law you hate so much. You are the other side of that same coin.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #514 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I contend that any discussion of a soul is meaningless and should not be allowed to be used in any legal argument as long as it remains in the realm of fantasy. It stays in the realm of fantasy until you come up with a falsifiable definition.

But I'm not fucking stupid, either. I see what bothers so many Christians about abortion. They believe in souls. They think the soul arrives immediately. They thing abortion is murder because that soul loses its vessel.

All ridiculous bullshit that should NOT ENTER ANY PUBLIC LEGAL DEBATE unless a soul is defined, quantified, and proven to exist.

If the strength of your religious conviction is used to determine legal debates, you might as well just enact that Sharia law you hate so much. You are the other side of that same coin.

Regardless of whatever or whoever you thunk should be in or out of the discussion...what you're getting to (whatever term we want to use) is what makes a human human. There are clearly physical, measurable things like DNA...but is there something else also (whatever term we wish to use to describe it) and is that something else present at conception? How can this be proven or disproven? We know that at conception this living thing is human in its core, foundational physical nature.

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post #515 of 693
This is ridiculous. The point when a zygote/embryo/fetus become human is only part of the debate on the legality of abortion. There are other factors that are of great importance.

But the point when human life begins is a matter of philosophy and of opinion, that can vary greatly, depending on perspective.

Ergo, we must allow those women involved to determine for themselves their views on this and whether it should be taken into consideration when deciding whether to carry a pregnancy. Since the debate is far from settled, we have no right to settle it by law. We must revert to the woman's choice and her doctor's advice, the only thing we know for sure that is not debatable.
post #516 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Regardless of whatever or whoever you thunk should be in or out of the discussion...what you're getting to (whatever term we want to use) is what makes a human human. There are clearly physical, measurable things like DNA...but is there something else also (whatever term we wish to use to describe it) and is that something else present at conception? How can this be proven or disproven? We know that at conception this living thing is human in its core, foundational physical nature.

You assert a soul exists. You provide no evidence. Your idea is soundly dismissed. It doesn't enter into the conversation.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #517 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

This is ridiculous. The point when a zygote/embryo/fetus become human is only part of the debate on the legality of abortion. There are other factors that are of great importance.

Of course that's part of the point. But why is it "ridiculous"? If it truly is a human life then we have something we might want to say about the willful and deliberate termination of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

But the point when human life begins is a matter of philosophy and of opinion, that can vary greatly, depending on perspective.

Partly, but not entirely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Ergo, we must allow those women involved to determine for themselves their views on this and whether it should be taken into consideration when deciding whether to carry a pregnancy.

In your opinion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Since the debate is far from settled, we have no right to settle it by law.

Except that's exactly what all of this is about. Determining the right, moral and lawful things that can be done.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

We must revert to the woman's choice and her doctor's advice, the only thing we know for sure that is not debatable.

Of course that is debatable. You don't just get to declare an end of debate because you say so.

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post #518 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You assert a soul exists. You provide no evidence. Your idea is soundly dismissed. It doesn't enter into the conversation.

You're getting lost in the word. I understand. Maybe in the morning with fresh eyes it will be more clear to you what I am saying. Then again, maybe not.


P.S. It's not the least bit amusing and ironic that a person professing the existence of an unprovable concept like the so-called "social contract" feels so confident about dismissing someone who believes there's such thing as a human soul.

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post #519 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You're getting lost in the word. I understand. Maybe in the morning with fresh eyes it will be more clear to you what I am saying. Then again, maybe not.

The supernatural has no place in legal discussions. I don't care what word you use. Call it invisible chest testicles--inchesticles. I don't give a fuck. You don't get to make ANY arguments that affect the entire country on the basis of your mythological inchesticles. Please, stop trying to teabag the abortion debate.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #520 of 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The supernatural has no place in legal discussions. I don't care what word you use. Call it invisible chest testicles--inchesticles. I don't give a fuck. You don't get to make ANY arguments that affect the entire country on the basis of your mythological inchesticles. Please, stop trying to teabag the abortion debate.

So when you start to sink...you start to get crude. I think I've found your tell.

In any case...who are you...wandering around proposing to foist your moral values on everyone else, claiming that I don't get to bring mine to the debate?

There again is that liberal belief in their own inherent moral superiority. \

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