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Mitt Romney for President - Page 14

post #521 of 693
2/22/12 at 9:05pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Nah, I get crude when it amuses me to. And really...invisible chest testicles? Not that crude.

Anyway, yes, I do get to decide that we limit the rules of society to what can be experienced in the natural world. The conversation is absolutely meaningless if the "supernatural" carry any weight. There's no reason. There's no logic. Anyone can assert anything if that person claims he or she believes it hard enough. So yes, there a ground rules: we stick with what is demonstrably real.

Has nothing to do with a moral superiority--it has to do with wanting a rational conversation. The supernatural is by definition irrational. Again, in using that term supernatural, I do not concede in any way that any such thing exists.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #522 of 693
2/22/12 at 9:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Anyway, yes, I do get to decide that we limit the rules of society to what can be experienced in the natural world.

Wow. Thanks for being so transparent about your authoritarianism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The conversation is absolutely meaningless if the "supernatural" carry any weight. There's no reason. There's no logic. Anyone can assert anything if that person claims he or she believes it hard enough. So yes, there a ground rules: we stick with what is demonstrably real.

Oh the irony!

Well, good night my hypocritical authoritarian friend.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #523 of 693
2/22/12 at 9:17pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Wow. Thanks for being so transparent about your authoritarianism.

Your idea of being authoritarian is wanting to limit laws based on things that are REAL!



 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #524 of 693
2/22/12 at 10:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Your idea of being authoritarian is wanting to limit laws based on things that are REAL!




Wow! That first one's David Tennant!

Well too bad. I thought at one time that mj was a logical thinker but at his heart he ignores ideas that might shake his " belief ". Not exactly an open mind. Perhaps a friend of mine is right that there's just no reasoning with someone who makes his decisions based on input from his amygdala. You might have better luck trying to reason with an alien being from another planet.
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post #525 of 693
2/23/12 at 5:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I thought at one time that mj was a logical thinker but at his heart he ignores ideas that might shake his " belief ". Not exactly an open mind. Perhaps a friend of mine is right that there's just no reasoning with someone who makes his decisions based on input from his amygdala. You might have better luck trying to reason with an alien being from another planet.

Let me see if I understand this correctly:
  1. You claim a human embryo or fetus could become anything.
  2. I ask you to provide evidence that a human embryo has ever become anything besides a human.
  3. You don't.
  4. You circle back and claim that "at that juncture it's not human yet."
  5. I ask "In what way is it not human?"
  6. You don't answer.

And all of this is evidence of my lack of logical thinking skills and my tendency to ignore ideas that shake my "belief" (not sure why you put the word belief in quotes...)

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #526 of 693
2/23/12 at 10:56am
See what I mean?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #527 of 693
2/23/12 at 10:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

See what I mean?

No. You have yet to explain what you mean. That's the point.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #528 of 693
2/23/12 at 11:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

No. You have yet to explain what you mean. That's the point.

I guess they're from the same planet.

A friend of mine has a saying : " Don't major on the minors ". Which ( curiously enough ) is what they're doing most of the time in the GOP debates.


Ps. Majoring on the minors is what I meant about the GOP in case any of you didn't understand.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #529 of 693
2/23/12 at 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

OK. So I have clarified my question:

Is there any evidence that a human fetus has ever has become anything but a human?

With this post it was clear that MJ understood my claim. jazzy for you it's 3 ridiculous pages back in RED ( 18 posts down which is more than MJ did for me ) so it's an attempt to make it clear. And because at that stage of development it has other characteristics and it's brain isn't fully developed ( as explained in the article I linked to ) it's not human yet.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #530 of 693
2/23/12 at 12:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

With this post it was clear that MJ understood my claim. jazzy for you it's 3 ridiculous pages back in RED so it's an attempt to make it clear. And because at that stage of development it has other characteristics and it's brain isn't fully developed ( as explained in the article I linked to ) it's not human yet.

Are deformed or mentally retarded people human?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #531 of 693
2/23/12 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Are deformed or mentally retarded people human?

This is totally out of left field. Do as I instructed ( if you really want to know ) in my post immediately above.

Deformed or mentally challenged people are fully formed and complete ( not in a period of gestation ).
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post #532 of 693
2/23/12 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

This is totally out of left field. Do as I instructed ( if you really want to know ) in my post immediately above.

Deformed or mentally challenged people are fully formed and complete ( not in a period of gestation ).

Not at all. The reasoning you gave entailed not being fully formed or having a fully developed brain. I wanted clarification on that.

So as long as the fetus can survive on its own outside the womb, it's "human". Correct?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #533 of 693
2/23/12 at 12:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

See what I mean?

I see what you're doing.

\

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post #534 of 693
2/23/12 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I see what you're doing.

\

I'm sorry but given your replies up until now I really doubt that.
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post #535 of 693
2/23/12 at 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Not at all. The reasoning you gave entailed not being fully formed or having a fully developed brain. I wanted clarification on that.

So as long as the fetus can survive on its own outside the womb, it's "human". Correct?

Is a fetus fully formed in or out of the womb?
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post #536 of 693
2/23/12 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Is a fetus fully formed in or out of the womb?

Are you going to answer my question?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #537 of 693
2/23/12 at 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Are you going to answer my question?

Nope.

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post #538 of 693
2/23/12 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Nope.

I can certainly understand his trepidation at answering that question.

History has shown that when we start arbitrarily deciding who his "human" and who is not it can lead to some pretty horrific things.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #539 of 693
2/23/12 at 1:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I can certainly understand his trepidation at answering that question.

History has shown that when we start arbitrarily deciding who his "human" and who is not it can lead to some pretty horrific things.

Why do you hate women?!

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #540 of 693
2/23/12 at 1:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Why do you hate women?!

We've already discussed this MJ, get with the times. You must be an alien from another planet or something. Take it from me, I was once a registered Libertarian but I've since seen the error of my ways. But I guess that's to be expected from the GOP.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #541 of 693
2/23/12 at 1:23pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
VIOLENCE VIOLENCE THEFT VIOLENCE THEFT VIOLENCE THEFT TAXES magic underwear VIOLENCE VIOLENCE THEFT

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #542 of 693
2/23/12 at 1:26pm
[expletive-laden tirade]

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #543 of 693
2/23/12 at 2:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I can certainly understand his trepidation at answering that question.

History has shown that when we start arbitrarily deciding who his "human" and who is not it can lead to some pretty horrific things.

So why are you trying to arbitrarily decide for women who is human? Let them decide for themselves and base their decision on their own private choice. That's the only moral thing to do.
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post #544 of 693
2/23/12 at 2:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

That's the only moral thing to do.

Who died and made you King?

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post #545 of 693
2/23/12 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Who died and made you King?

I'm not King but the woman is Queen of her body.
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post #546 of 693
2/23/12 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I'm not King but the woman is Queen of her body.

You don't get it. That's ok. Maybe someday.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #547 of 693
2/23/12 at 2:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So why are you trying to arbitrarily decide for women who is human?

Please show where I am doing this.

Quote:
Let them decide for themselves and base their decision on their own private choice. That's the only moral thing to do.

I agree. No government involvement in the matter is necessary.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #548 of 693
2/23/12 at 2:57pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

A fetus goes through a number of changes where it can become anything. As a matter of fact a human fetus has many attributes of other animals as it progresses to maturity. But right after conception it's just a cell with some potential. Now if you can't argue your point with logic quit pretending you can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I'm not entirely sure you are 100% correct there, though again admittedly biology is not my field of expertise. What do you mean by it could become anything?

This should be good.
To save time, assume I know everything.
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post #549 of 693
2/23/12 at 3:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Let me see if I understand this correctly:
  1. You claim a human embryo or fetus could become anything.
  2. I ask you to provide evidence that a human embryo has ever become anything besides a human.
  3. You don't.
  4. You circle back and claim that "at that juncture it's not human yet."
  5. I ask "In what way is it not human?"
  6. You don't answer.

And all of this is evidence of my lack of logical thinking skills and my tendency to ignore ideas that shake my "belief" (not sure why you put the word belief in quotes...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

See what I mean?


Jimmac, I'm not really sure what your position is here. The only claim that has been made is that life begins at conception. You seem to be arguing otherwise, claiming that at early stages of development the fetus is so primitive that it doesn't really count as a life. You're saying it's no different than, say, my fingernail. I presume you're making this argument to support an abortion argument? I'm really asking.

I do find it funny that you are doing your typical thing (not really taking a position or having a point) and while at the same time telling MJ he's afraid to take a position.
To save time, assume I know everything.
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post #550 of 693
2/23/12 at 3:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Jimmac, I'm not really sure what your position is here. The only claim that has been made is that life begins at conception. You seem to be arguing otherwise, claiming that at early stages of development the fetus is so primitive that it doesn't really count as a life. You're saying it's no different than, say, my fingernail. I presume you're making this argument to support an abortion argument? I'm really asking.

I do find it funny that you are doing your typical thing (not really taking a position or having a point) and while at the same time telling MJ he's afraid to take a position.

Quote:
Jimmac, I'm not really sure what your position is here.

I'm sorry but I really can't help you with your obvious blind spot.\
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post #551 of 693
2/23/12 at 3:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Are you going to answer my question?

When you ask something relevant that isn't trying to lead me in a certain direction that I wasn't going by myself.

This is you trying to misquote me :
Quote:
So as long as the fetus can survive on its own outside the womb, it's "human". Correct?

I didn't say that at all so I asked a question that would put us back on track.

Nice try though.
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post #552 of 693
2/23/12 at 3:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

When you ask something relevant that isn't trying to lead me in a certain direction that I wasn't going by myself.

That direction being to clarify your position. It's obvious you'd rather remain vague and non-comittal, which is (as you are so fond of saying) "telling".

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #553 of 693
2/23/12 at 3:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I'm not King but the woman is Queen of her body.

Good one!
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post #554 of 693
2/23/12 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

That direction being to clarify your position. It's obvious you'd rather remain vague and non-comittal, which is (as you are so fond of saying) "telling".

If anyone is vague here it's you and MJ. Otherwise why would you try to put words in my mouth. If I'm wrong jazzy show me the quote that matches what you were trying to claim I said. And yes it is " Telling ".
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post #555 of 693
2/23/12 at 3:28pm
Told you.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #556 of 693
2/23/12 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Told you.

Yes you've been doing a lot of telling. Except where it comes to being direct on your postion of your position on all of this.

So to back track you believe that a human begins at conception because they've got a soul right? And we should write laws based on this correct?
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post #557 of 693
2/23/12 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

If anyone is vague here it's you and MJ. Otherwise why would you try to put words in my mouth. If I'm wrong jazzy show me the quote that matches what you were trying to claim I said. And yes it is " Telling ".

I didn't claim you said anything. I made a statement based on what I understood about your position and asked you to say whether that statement was correct or not. You refused to answer the question and are, instead, playing games.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #558 of 693
2/23/12 at 3:33pm
The irony is crazy.

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post #559 of 693
2/23/12 at 3:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I didn't claim you said anything. I made a statement based on what I understood about your position and asked you to say whether that statement was correct or not. You refused to answer the question and are, instead, playing games.

No. You've didn't understand ( obviously ) either by mistake or design. That's why I answered your question with a question.
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post #560 of 693
2/23/12 at 3:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

The irony is crazy.

Crazy would be the word.
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