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Apple accused of feeding intellectual property to patent troll - Page 5

post #161 of 271
This is great..sue all the cloners out of existence. Maybe Samesung, HTCloner, etcloner... should innovate for a change and not just copy everything Apple does?
post #162 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

Apple is looking for the biggest profits it can possibly make, and will use any sleazy tactic they can to get it.

Just a thought. Why isn't Apple #1 on your "enemies list" since you appear to hate them so much?
post #163 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post

How so?

The kid that walks up and steals the other kids lunch money. Standard Bully 101.

Motorola sued Apple first.
post #164 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post

Me being against any company that supports an entity that is ultimately bad for innovation as their sole purpose is generating income as opposed to protecting IP is the same as me wanting Apple dead and gone.

Please give one example of a so-called 'patent troll' being anti-innovation. One clear, obvious example of a non-manufacturing entity stifling innovation. Apple put the multi-touch smartphone out amidst numerous non-manufacturing entities holding patents for all kinds of technologies. The same goes for the iPad. 'Patent trolls' sure didn't keep them from changing (or more correctly, creating) those markets.

With companies holding patents, a product will hit the marketplace before the 'patent trolls' do anything. That isn't innovation preventing. The product hitting the marketplace showcases the innovation. I can see copycat companies (read: Google, HTC, Samsung) doing far, FAR more to prevent innovation by parroting a cutting edge company's products for their own gain without bringing anything innovative into the mix.
post #165 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by F1Ferrari View Post

Please give one example of a so-called 'patent troll' being anti-innovation. One clear, obvious example of a non-manufacturing entity stifling innovation. Apple put the multi-touch smartphone out amidst numerous non-manufacturing entities holding patents for all kinds of technologies. The same goes for the iPad. 'Patent trolls' sure didn't keep them from changing (or more correctly, creating) those markets.

With companies holding patents, a product will hit the marketplace before the 'patent trolls' do anything. That isn't innovation preventing. The product hitting the marketplace showcases the innovation. I can see copycat companies (read: Google, HTC, Samsung) doing far, FAR more to prevent innovation by parroting a cutting edge company's products for their own gain without bringing anything innovative into the mix.

Never called Apple a patent troll...

Also...Are you suggesting that because Apple revolutionized the game no one else is allowed to play?

Since when was that the name of innovation?
post #166 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N. View Post

The kid that walks up and steals the other kids lunch money. Standard Bully 101.

Motorola sued Apple first.

Apple and the kid had a deal in play but Apple decided that it didn't like the deal being so much like the deal it had with others and asked for special treatment...the kid then said no, this isn't right...Apple went ahead and used the kids property even after the deal was deemed wrong by the kid...the kid then sued.

Is a lot different than going after a Spanish tablet maker.
post #167 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

I sure hope if I'm ever on trial for anything that someone like you isn't sitting on the jury.

As if I would pay the same amount of attention and diligence to determining someone's guilt or innocence on a jury as making a comment on a rumor blog.
post #168 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

You're making blanket statements about property that don't really exist. There is no "you own it I can do what I want with it" rule. In regards to owning a digital real estate, or cybersquatting, I can buy some generic name like porn or search hoping one day that someone will make a huge offer, but I can't buy iPad3 or Windows9 without running into some legal issues.

Intellectual property doesn't really exist? Since when? Intellectual property most certainly does exist and can be bought and sold like other property. Try coming back when you learn something about intellectual property.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

You can get upset by the term patent troll but the term is descriptive and much shorter than writing non-practicing patent holding company or patent investment firm. It's a simple term that describes exactly what they do and implies nothing illegal which is noted by licensing deals among companies and lawsuits they file in a court of law.

It's an inflammatory, meaningless term and implies that they did something wrong.
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Gatorguy 5/31/13
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Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #169 of 271
I guess I will reserve judgement, till facts come out. One report, means nothing. We have all seen "reports" come out that turned out to be false. Especially, when it concerns Apple, Google, or whatever. Now reports on Facebook.....I'm sure all the bad ones are true
post #170 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post

Never called Apple a patent troll...

Also...Are you suggesting that because Apple revolutionized the game no one else is allowed to play?

Since when was that the name of innovation?

Poor reading comprehension is hindering your argument. I didn't say that you said Apple is a patent troll, but somehow you discerned that. Try to focus.

I also didn't say that since Apple invented the market for 'real' smartphones and tablets that no one should play. I do think that if someone wants to enter into the new marketplace that Apple created, they should be able to do it without blatantly copying Apple's patented designs and workings. As my example I used before, Apple patented the bounce back when over scrolling. Why did Google need to copy that when designing the workings of Android apart from just duplication and not innovating?

And by the way, you've still not answered my question. I asked for one obvious example of a 'patent troll' stifling innovation. That was your main argument against them. Let's see an example to back up your claim, or was that just something you pulled out of thin air?
post #171 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

Are there any I have left off of the list?

Apple itself seems to be its greatest enemy these days. Then again, I'll repeat myself: Steve Jobs admired the old HP. Great companies fall from grace and it sometimes is very fast. Let's hope Apple doesn't go this way too soon.

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post #172 of 271
I'm pretty sure Apple was "forced" into this. I think there was some issue where the patent troll threatened to sue Apple or Apple/iOS developers, but they would apparently shut up if Apple gave them some patents for free.

The primary reason behind this move seems to be to protect the company from being sued by a patent troll. That the patent troll will now aggressively take on Apple's competitors is a nice bonus for Apple, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post

I agree. I found the article amusing. It's good to see Apple playing as dirty as the leeches.

Don't be foolish. Didn't Apple sue HTC first? There's a huge difference between countersuing another company, and being a patent troll that lives off of lawsuits.
post #173 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

This is great..sue all the cloners out of existence. Maybe Samesung, HTCloner, etcloner... should innovate for a change and not just copy everything Apple does?

As regards to Samsung and HTC, you seem to assume cloning is bad and your _american_ way of thinking is the only acceptable one. I expect you'll then propose to nuke Iran, aggress Irak (ah, already done), invade Afghanistan (ah, already done), steal oil from poor countries (ah, already done), bully countries into voting your way or remove american participation into population-support programs necessary due to american behavior (ah, already done, ask Yemen or even UNESCO their opinion about that), double american-made world air pollution when everyone else is diminishing theirs (ah, already done)...

My point is, asian cultures consider copying good ideas a legitimate method to advance technology and culture. The fact america considers it a bad thing doesn't make it the only way to think.
Open your mind to that fact: others may think differently.

Think different.

And don't get me wrong: America has lots of great things, however self-righteousness is not one of them.

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post #174 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Apple

Why didn't Google sue Apple directly instead of giving patents to HTC?

Because Google isn't really interested in suing anyone? Remember, Apple sued HTC first, right?

Quote:
And why is Samsung trying to sue Apple using FRAND patents?

Because Apple sued Samsung?

Quote:
I'd like to see Android completely destroyed. The world would be a better place without Android. And if Android were to disappear, Fandroids would also naturally disappear and go extinct like the dodo bird.

So not only do you think competition is a bad thing, but you also advocate genocide?
post #175 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by insike View Post

Don't be foolish. Didn't Apple sue HTC first? There's a huge difference between countersuing another company, and being a patent troll that lives off of lawsuits.

I don't think patent trolls are a good thing, but given the fact the biggest patent troll was made by a Microsoft top employee, it might be argued they always were a weapon, due to the current legal system.

It would be interesting to see how this all evolves... but I wish we could have a shortened version of the next twenty years of lawyering and lobbying

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post #176 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by insike View Post

So not only do you think competition is a bad thing, but you also advocate genocide?

I hope his words did not mean genocide. He seems to advocate the idea that without Android, Android-people would use iPhone.

Note that his whole discourse fails, since he advocates a world of innovation and competition... but without anyone competing against Apple, and any innovation not from Apple. Methinks it's not going to work out.

As to his idea that Android should be destroyed and the world would be better without it, in my opinion, if any system is terrible, it will die out. If it's good enough that it survives or even thrives, then it is self-demonstrating that the world has a need for it, is therefore better with it, and it should not hence be destroyed but made (even) better.

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post #177 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by insike View Post

I'm pretty sure Apple was "forced" into this. I think there was some issue where the patent troll threatened to sue Apple or Apple/iOS developers, but they would apparently shut up if Apple gave them some patents for free.

The primary reason behind this move seems to be to protect the company from being sued by a patent troll. That the patent troll will now aggressively take on Apple's competitors is a nice bonus for Apple, I guess.

It appears Apple was a more than willing member. They're even on the speakers list for the recent IP getaway weekend thrown by Digitude and backer Altitude.

Note too that Nokia is again targeted, just months after all the lawsuits between Apple and them were supposedly settled. Is that going to be enough for Microsoft to modify their somewhat passive support for Apple's tactics?

If Digitude were the simple and legitimate company that Wizard, Jragosta and some others would say they are, why did they go into hiding as soon as the news broke?

When TechCrunch began shining a light in their direction with Apple's name attached around Dec. 4th, their website and all related references were suddenly removed. Damning evidence IMHO that "someone" didn't want it known they were involved and wanted it gone.

Since Digitude was happy to release several press announcements in the previous months, what changed suddenly to send them into hiding? They plainly were proud of their business plan. The only thing I see that happened is Apple exposed as a partner and perhaps even the driver. Digitude and partners don't appear to be quite as open about their little business now.
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post #178 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

If true, then this is great news!

How can anybody whine about this? Why do these people insist that Apple brings a knife to a gun fight?

How is this any different than Google buying Motorola and then giving some patents to HTC, which they then use to sue Apple with?

Google gives HTC patents so it can sue Apple

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...sue-Apple.html

As long as it's legal, then I say good for Apple! Apple should use every method that they can to crush it's enemies. Apple should make friends with every patent troll in the world and then band together to sue the hell out of everybody, while Apple is protected.

Beg to differ. HTC Didn't sue Apple on its own. Apple sued them and tried to stop their mobile business. Since they were using Android for their daily bread, Google came to their rescue. Fight can not be one way. At the end Apple may win, but the battle has to be fought rather than a straight defeat
post #179 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by insike View Post

So not only do you think competition is a bad thing, but you also advocate genocide?

Yes, I think that Fandroids should be rounded up and made to wear green Android patches on their clothing. After that, they should all be placed and made to live in ghettos, where they will eventually be stuffed into cattle cars and shipped off to camps where the final solution awaits them.

Oh wait a second. Actually, I believe that I explained exactly what I meant in post #46, so no, I do not advocate genocide for anybody. At least not for Fandroids.
post #180 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

He seems to advocate the idea that without Android, Android-people would use iPhone.

In a world without Android, they wouldn't all necessarily have to use iPhones. They could use Blackberries or Symbian or Windows phones or anything else.

I certainly don't want everybody to be using Apple only, that sounds rather boring.
post #181 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by rBels View Post

At the end Apple may win, but the battle has to be fought rather than a straight defeat

Yes, this whole war will involve a whole number of lawsuits and small battles and we shall see who eventually ends up victorious.
post #182 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by F1Ferrari View Post

Poor reading comprehension is hindering your argument. I didn't say that you said Apple is a patent troll, but somehow you discerned that. Try to focus.

I also didn't say that since Apple invented the market for 'real' smartphones and tablets that no one should play. I do think that if someone wants to enter into the new marketplace that Apple created, they should be able to do it without blatantly copying Apple's patented designs and workings. As my example I used before, Apple patented the bounce back when over scrolling. Why did Google need to copy that when designing the workings of Android apart from just duplication and not innovating?

And by the way, you've still not answered my question. I asked for one obvious example of a 'patent troll' stifling innovation. That was your main argument against them. Let's see an example to back up your claim, or was that just something you pulled out of thin air?

The fact that you think Google's Android includes any sort of bounce back shows to me that you really know nothing about Android and worse your entire understanding of these cases is probably wrong.
post #183 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post

Apple and the kid had a deal in play but Apple decided that it didn't like the deal being so much like the deal it had with others and asked for special treatment...the kid then said no, this isn't right...Apple went ahead and used the kids property even after the deal was deemed wrong by the kid...the kid then sued.

Is a lot different than going after a Spanish tablet maker.

Your analogy is all wrong. Motorola is like a kid who gave up its property for all to use on fair and non discriminatory terms. Legally it has no right to take it's property back. The kid then got jealous of the popular new kid named Apple and wanted to discriminate against the pretty new kid by forcing it to pay a toll nobody else has to pay. So, since the kid chose to discriminate against Apple, Apple decided to keep using the property that it had a legal right to do. Just because the kid turned into a bully and didn't honor its commitments, doesn't mean Apple should have to suffer.

Instead, like when Apple had to deal with that bully Nokia, Apple is setting money aside that it is properly accounting for and that it intends to give to the kid when the kid decides to honor its original commitment to the community.
post #184 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

It appears Apple was a more than willing member. They're even on the speakers list for the recent IP getaway weekend thrown by Digitude and backer Altitude.

Note too that Nokia is again targeted, just months after all the lawsuits between Apple and them were supposedly settled. Is that going to be enough for Microsoft to modify their somewhat passive support for Apple's tactics?

Yes, and not too long after Nokia settled its lawsuit with Apple it transfers a couple thousand of its patents to Mosiad, a company that does the same thing as Digitude. Nokia made a public statement that those patents are not covered by the deal Apple and Nokia made. I wonder why Nokia would say that? So, what do you know, soon after Apple makes the same arrangement. If I recall, Nokia struck first last time.
post #185 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Yes, and not too long after Nokia settled its lawsuit with Apple it transfers a couple thousand of its patents to Mosiad, a company that does the same thing as Digitude. Nokia made a public statement that those patents are not covered by the deal Apple and Nokia made.

I missed that one. Have you got a link to the statement? Not at all saying it wasn't claimed, just curious about the context and what was actually said since I wasn't familiar with it.
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post #186 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by insike View Post

So not only do you think competition is a bad thing, but you also advocate genocide?


Competing unfairly is a bad thing. Competition is what Microsoft is attempting to do. Namely bringing its own competing product to market that it developed itself from the ground up. Competing fairly is not taking another's ideas and then trying to undercut the creator of those ideas in the market by offering a slightly altered replicate of it's product. It is a lot easier for HTC and Samsung to just take an iPhone apart and copy it then it was for Apple to spend the hundreds of millions in research and development costs to bring the same product to market. It is also easier for Samsung and HTC to undercut Apple's pricing when they don't have to pay that research cost. Further, Apple makes money by being original. It doesn't want people copying.

So, I have no problem with Android being wiped off the face of the Earth. There will be competition. Microsoft's Windows Phone might be slow to catch up, but it is shaping up. It will gain traction especially if Microsoft does what it is starting to do and leverage the X-Box platform. Moreover, that will be good for the market. Apple isn't going to go to into a legal battle with Microsoft, and Microsoft indemnifies it's partners. So, Apple and all the competing hardware manufacturers will get to focus on making products, and not spend so much money on lawyers the cost of which gets passed off to consumers.

Apple honestly is Android's smallest problem. Oracle is what Google is worrying about the most. With Oracle holding emails that explicitly say Google choose to rip Java off, Google is going to be paying some big dollars in licensing fees to keep Android going. Either Google will have to charge, like Microsoft does for the OS, or it will have to eat the cost itself.
post #187 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I missed that one. Have you got a link to the statement? Not at all saying it wasn't claimed, just curious about the context and what was actually said since I wasn't familiar with it.

I am not going to try and find the original article when the news first broke, but here is something. My point is that Nokia did the same thing Apple did, and it has publicly acknowledged that it doesn't view the patents to be part of the settlement with Apple. Again, this move by Apple is 1) not original, and 2) is smart.
post #188 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

I am not going to try and find the original article when the news first broke, but here is something.

Thanks, that helps. So then as a personal opinion are you expecting MOSAID (as an agent for Nokia) to now sue Apple just as Digitude (as agent for Apple) is suing Nokia?
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post #189 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

This is a day for all True Apple Fans to hang their heads in shame.

This is not the kind of company that many fell in love with back in the day, but a wholly different sort of a beast. Indeed, it is exaclty the type of misadventuring corporate behemoth that Steve and Woz HATED back when they decided to create something for "the rest of us".

Did Steve want his legacy to practice questionable business ethics? Did Woz want his to be a gun runner for patent trolls?

Maybe? But not likely.

Really, you mean like when Apple got into a ten year legal battle with Microsoft over the Mac for Microsoft ripping off the Mac OS? Apple's lawyer are adjusting to the tactics of its opponents. Plain and simple.
post #190 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Apple honestly is Android's smallest problem. Oracle is what Google is worrying about the most.

Exactly. I can't wait to see how that turns out.

People keep talking about competition nonsense. There is a big difference between competition and being a lowlife thief.
post #191 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

It's an inflammatory, meaningless term and implies that they did something wrong.


There is a difference between legally and morally wrong. If you want insight into the difference, ask Joe Paterno who got the shaft at Penn State for following the law. Martin Luther King is a good reference to explain the difference to you as well.
post #192 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Thanks, that helps. So then as a personal opinion are you expecting MOSAID (as an agent for Nokia) to now sue Apple just as Digitude (as agent for Apple) is suing Nokia?

No problem. I wouldn't' be surprised if Mosaid sues Apple at some point. I, however, would not expect it to occur until after Apple releases LTE phones. My understanding is the patents are largely FRAND patents that cover LTE. That is assuming Apple can't get reasonable licensing terms like was the case the last time.
post #193 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Moreover, that will be good for the market. Apple isn't going to go to into a legal battle with Microsoft, and Microsoft indemnifies it's partners. So, Apple and all the competing hardware manufacturers will get to focus on making products, and not spend so much money on lawyers the cost of which gets passed off to consumers.

I suppose that will depend on conversations between Apple and Microsoft on how their agent's (Digitude) suit against Nokia is viewed. Perhaps they both continue to see Android as the bigger obstacle for now. Perhaps not.

From appearances Apple did not want it's name associated with Digitude while Nokia didn't have the same issue with MOSAID. Now that the connection is out in the open it's going to be impossible for Apple to make denials. What Digitude does from here on out is going to be associated with Apple.
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post #194 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

No problem. I wouldn't' be surprised if Mosaid sues Apple at some point. I, however, would not expect it to occur until after Apple releases LTE phones. My understanding is the patents are largely FRAND patents that cover LTE. That is assuming Apple can't get reasonable licensing terms like was the case the last time.

Interesting perspective. I hadn't thought along those lines, and it certainly sounds reasonable.
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post #195 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by insike View Post

I'm pretty sure Apple was "forced" into this. I think there was some issue where the patent troll threatened to sue Apple or Apple/iOS developers, but they would apparently shut up if Apple gave them some patents for free.

The primary reason behind this move seems to be to protect the company from being sued by a patent troll. That the patent troll will now aggressively take on Apple's competitors is a nice bonus for Apple, I guess.




You act like the patent troll and Apple are distinct. They are not.

Instead, they are partners.

Apple is set to profit off of this relationship. Apple supplies the guns, they supply the mercenaries.

Read up on Digitude Innovations. Google it. Read the stuff from sources other than AI. This is a sleazy move by Apple.
post #196 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post


My point is, asian cultures consider copying good ideas a legitimate method



Apple never copies good ideas.

Instead, they steal great ideas. Apple has always been shameless about stealing great ideas.
post #197 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

Google it. Read the stuff from sources other than AI. This is a sleazy move by Apple.

You lost me at Google it.
post #198 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post

This is a sleazy move by Apple.

That is a matter of opinion. And being sleazy is not illegal. As a matter of fact, I sometimes prefer sleazy women over prudes.
post #199 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Really, you mean like when Apple got into a ten year legal battle with Microsoft over the Mac for Microsoft ripping off the Mac OS? Apple's lawyer are adjusting to the tactics of its opponents. Plain and simple.

Didn't that case end with M$ being vindicated, and Apple running away with its tail between its legs?
post #200 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

From appearances Apple did not want it's name associated with Digitude while Nokia didn't have the same issue with MOSAID. Now that the connection is out in the open it's going to be impossible for Apple to make denials. What Digitude does from here on out is going to be associated with Apple.

Why would Apple not wanting to be associated with this company surprise you? I do not see Apple bragging about its partnerships with various component manufacturers. It goes to trouble to conceal those relationships. Why? For strategic reasons. Just because you want to know, doesn't mean it serves Apple to let you know. Apple announces products, not relationships.
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