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PC makers losing interest in tablets, hope Ultrabooks will improve margins - Page 2

post #41 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

Can anyone spot why?

Because the usual suspects haven't yet posted in this thread?
post #42 of 72
I didn't think the competition would give up until Apple releases an iPad with a Retina Display; something they can do at a lower cost and better power efficiency than the competition.

There is some good tablet HW out there for a great price. Asus's Transformer Prime is such an example but it is being launched with Honeycomb which is its achilles heal. Maybe when it gets ICS soooooon things will change but I think Android is flawed at the core so I don't expect that to change.

Anything HP expects to do with opening up WebOS seems too little too late, and unless Amazon can make a real competitor to the iPad with solid HW and good OS experience their Kindle isn't going to be much more than a profitless budget tablet.

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post #43 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

OFF TOPIC - but just want to comment on the fact that this and the previous thread have reached 40 posts and the discussion is civil and hasn't degenerated into and endless stream sarkiness.
Can anyone spot why?

(Assuming sarkiness means snarky-ness): sarcastic, impertinent, or irreverent in tone or manner

Refer to posts: 4, 19, 26, 34, 40, 42.

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post #44 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by willb2064 View Post

Unless all enterprise software starts to run on non-Windows machines, and somehow manage to scale themselves down to work on tablet/phone size screens (impossible IMO), Windows desktops will be around long after 2016.

I think its dangerously short-sighted to assume that the current state of bloatware will determine the future of enterprise computing.
Already bulky customer relationship software such as the Siebel is going the way of Cloud solutions such as Salesforce.com.
95% of Spreadsheet and Word processing work can easily be done on lighter weight alternatives to Excel and Word (although they will be needed by the sliver of high-end users of both for a while.)
Same for database development, but even moreso. 1% need to dev tools, 99% just need a web or lightweight application interface to the business logic.

Don't confuse the legacy needs of the small percentage of users with deep needs with the much lighter requirements of the 99%, which will easily be serviceable by iPads and Airs (and their imitators) if not now, then quite soon.

The future is here. Embrace it.
post #45 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by umrk_lab View Post

There is another mystery about PC laptops, which I can observe everyday in my company : my colleagues walking in corridors hold them horizontally, like a pizza box (and not, say, under one arm). Do they fear that holding them vertically would break something into Windows fragile machinery ?

Nah, its just that they know that closing them will mean a nightmare of restarting/reconnecting when they get to the meeting room.
Seriously.
post #46 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcalpin View Post

Your post has a little too much hyperbole for my taste, but I do think Windows 8/Metro tablets are going to be a real contender where Android has (thus far) failed to become much of one.

I think we've only really seen evidence that PC makers are losing interest in Android tablets. And they never really had any interest in Windows <7 tablets.

exactly, Windows OS 8 on Tablet format ought to be really interesting. I don't believe that it is a bad thing at all to get competition and it is high time Microsoft competed with IOS Tablet.

Apple has a closed system, won't allow software from outside sources to be installed, a not easy to understand file structure. many people will like a tablet which is more like a full PC and more open.
post #47 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchelljd View Post

many people will like a tablet which is more like a full PC and more open.

and not a "nightmare of restarting/reconnecting when they get to the meeting room." ?
post #48 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHrubik View Post

I'm going to label this the most premature article of the decade. Windows 8 is being developed for tablets and computers. I think all the Windows OEMs will be gearing up for tablets for or after the Windows 8 launch.

Windows 8 - too little, too late. It even rhymes.
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post #49 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

OFF TOPIC - but just want to comment on the fact that this and the previous thread have reached 40 posts and the discussion is civil and hasn't degenerated into and endless stream sarkiness.
Can anyone spot why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Because the usual suspects haven't yet posted in this thread?

Notice that there is not a single poster whose name ends in a "z" (or a "joe" or a "skater").
post #50 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

Dear <insert clone computer maker here>,

Thanks for all those fat checks. I realize you have next to nothing left in your pocket after cutting me the check, but think of all the new sales you will get with <insert windows version here> in the future. Keep racing to the bottom, that is your ticket! I don't mind of course because i know you will keep sending me those fat checks for the pleasure of using <insert windows version here>. In the upcoming <insert windows version here> you will have the ability to differentiate your cloner computers by changing the background color! Keep up the good work

Thanks.
Microsoft

Best post ever.
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post #51 of 72
I think what we can take away from this is that consumers will pay a little more for a product with perceived quality. It was not difficult for Apple to convince consumers to pay hundreds more for a fully realized, largely uncompromised product like the iPad instead of settling for a deeply flawed netbook.

Deciding between a $250 netbook that is a pain in the derriere to use or a $500 iPad that is a pleasure to use, it's no contest. And considering most of us would love to have a well-designed laptop that is light and generally smartly thought out, that Apple has managed to deliver such a device for about $1,000, gives them yet another winner.

While there always was a concern about Apple not offering the same access to software that is possible via a PC, no one ever claimed that the Mac was inferior to the competition either in terms of how well the hardware works or how decent the OS has been. The knock against Apple has always been price relative to specs, i.e. bang for the buck. That's really not a factor any longer. Competitors can't deliver a comparable product to the iPad for significantly less money any more than they have been able to do that in response to the Air. And with the Apple coming with a decent collection of software basically included in the price, competitors simply don't know how to respond.

There isn't a bad product in Apple's arsenal and that's huge because if you deliver a good experience with any one of those, it helps sell the rest. A satisfied iPhone owner can end up owning other Apple products when, perhaps, Apple wasn't even in the picture prior to that iPhone purchase.

I would love to see some legitimate competition between assorted brands because that competition would lead to better deals for the consumer. Yet as we're seeing with the embarrassing bumbling that is happening outside of Apple, other companies simply don't get it. Consumers do not appreciate being used as testers, basically sacrificing a good experience to help companies refine their products. People want products that just work and Apple, while not getting absolutely everything right, come much closer to delivering that than the competition. You buy an Apple and usually don't regret it. Buy some other product and it's a frustrating adventure that rarely ends well. It really shouldn't be like this and yet it is.
post #52 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by iVlad View Post

The reason why Apple makes so much money is because iPad is tied into Apple's eco-system of iTunes, App Store and Apple's software products. This allows Apple to directly tie profit from its eco-system into profit from iPads. Samsung does not get any kind of income from Android, they package their hardware and send it off, never gaining any profit in the future.

That is NOT why iPads are so profitable. They are profitable from day one, because Apple has leveraged its enormous quantities of scale in the supply and manufacturing chain to secure very low prices across very large volumes. It literally costs Apple a lot less to make a tablet than it does everyone else.

Anything added by iTunes purchases is gravy, but Apple still reports it separately. There is no confusion here.

Thompson
post #53 of 72
Holy Cow! Until a solid competitor emerges, Apple will continue to charge a premium for their tablets. Let's hope somebody is up for the challenge! At least Amazon is setting a good example, albeit with a different sized screen.
post #54 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Notice that there is not a single poster whose name ends in a "z" (or a "joe" or a "skater").

They all must still be napping due to a World of Warcraft marathon session that lasted till the wee hours of the morning.
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post #55 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob55 View Post

Not trying to defend Windows here, but I think the reaction is a throwback to Windows XP's inability to come out of hibernation. I myself, marveled at my 1st Mac's ability to do what no other Windows machine was ever able to do, come back reliably from sleep mode. It wasn't until recently that Windows machines started to be able to do this with Win 7. But even that isn't always reliable. So, those users are still afraid that sleep mode, even on Win 7, will be like it always was, unreliable.

Thats one on the things that made me buy a Mac. None of the Windows machine (win XP and Vista at the time) that I ever had was able to recover from sleep mode. I was pretty amaze to see how well and fast Mac's recovered from sleep.
post #56 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Most notebook makers have now turned away from the low-end netbook market, where margins are razor thin.

And the Windows ultrabook market will not have razor thin margins as well?
post #57 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by iVlad View Post

Because Samsung makes more profit from notebooks then tablets. Tablets are very expensive to make comparing to a notebook. The reason why Apple makes so much money is because iPad is tied into Apple's eco-system of iTunes, App Store and Apple's software products. This allows Apple to directly tie profit from its eco-system into profit from iPads. Samsung does not get any kind of income from Android, they package their hardware and send it off, never gaining any profit in the future.

What Apple needs so badly is its own network so that the AT&Ts and Verizons of the world can't put a gun to their head when full-on mobile/cloud computing finally arrives. No we're not there yet.
post #58 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post

What Apple needs so badly is its own network so that the AT&Ts and Verizons of the world can't put a gun to their head when full-on mobile/cloud computing finally arrives. No we're not there yet.

1) Apple let the internet providers do the heavy investments necessary for the 4G

2) Apple allows, through a modified SIM card, the Apple mobile devices to choose the less expansive network (depending on location). MVNO principle

3) Internet providers shares fall down

4) Apple buys for almost nothing, country by country, the more efficient network provider
post #59 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmgregory1 View Post

I would argue that Apple hasn't sewn up the high-end laptop market, but rather has convinced people that a product like the mba is a better value than a cheap netbook or even a cheap laptop. For that matter, it's already been shown to offer better specs at lower prices than the competition - something that seems to escape those that offer up that Apple only sells overpriced products. As far as the iPad goes - again, it's not a high end market or high end product...it IS the market. The Fire is, for now, the low-end sort of alternative, although given the reviews coming in, they too may suffer the same fate the other manufacturers have with pad competitors.

I agree with the rest of your comments - typical tech market trying to sell people on what is, not what can be. It takes a company like Apple to push us to think different.

Mmmm. I think of $1000 plus laptops, apple has like 92% of the market...may be wrong on that, but thought I read it over a year ago. If I'm correct that's a larger market share than iPads. Hmmmmmmm.
post #60 of 72
The iPad was first and it set the bar too high, competition cannot catch up so they lose interest.

Is this a different case with the MBA?
post #61 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Notice that there is not a single poster whose name ends in a "z" (or a "joe" or a "skater").

They're starting a little further back in the alphabet today... "x". (with absolutely no reference to the person posting above me)
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post #62 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted44 View Post

To be fair, the Macbook Air became an "ultra book" only with the release of the late 2010 models, and the price drops which accompanied it, still giving Apple at least a year's head start.

The definition of an ultrabook was not solidified until this year and that no one even considered the possibility until Apple created one. Until then, any lightweight laptop was basically called a netbook.
post #63 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchelljd View Post

exactly, Windows OS 8 on Tablet format ought to be really interesting. . .

Yup, if oughts were bots theyll be flying out the doors.

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post #64 of 72
Amazon Kindle Fire owns the low end of the pad market:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Amazon recently entered the touchscreen tablet market with its new Kindle Fire, which has already become the online retailer's best-selling product.

Apple iPad owns the high end of the pad market:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

And while competitors bow out of the tablet space, Apple's iPad sales continue to grow while the company dominates the market.

All the rest of the would-be competitors in the pad space have run into the "infrastructure wall." It's easy to design and build pad computing hardware. There are (or were) dozens of no-name Chinese knockoffs. Google "Chinese tablets." It's almost funny.

That's your proof that almost any hardware company can mash up a pad computer. But it's vastly harder to integrate an OS with your pad computing hardware. Just ask Google about fragmentation and UI lag. Just ask RIM about native email. If you don't develop both the hardware and software, together, for each other, you're going to run into catastrophic problems. And even if you do control both hardware and software, you might fail anyway. Just ask Palm. And HP.

So, as hard as that all device development is, it's completely impossible to copy iTunes, iTunes Store, App Store, iCloud and now Siri overnight. Apple has been working on that ecosystem and its experience for the last 10 years. iOS devices are just portholes, of various sizes, into that ecosystem.

And that's the killer, isn't it? Pad hardware is easy. But the Dells and Acers of the world are finally realizing that the hardware, for all the attention that Jonathan Ive's designs get, is only the first little baby step. It's the ecosystem that adds real value to the hardware. iPad is just the box the ecosystem comes in. Consumers have always known that, or at least reacted to that fact subconsciously.

Amazon has a great ecosystem. Kindle Fire is sold at a small loss, Amazon makes that up and more through sales. Apple has a great ecosystem. iPod touch, iPhone, iPad, and Apple TV are all sold at a profit, and Apple makes a little extra money through sales. Is there a third possible model? A model that isn't covered by those to approaches? I don't think so.

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post #65 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post

What Apple needs so badly is its own network so that the AT&Ts and Verizons of the world can't put a gun to their head when full-on mobile/cloud computing finally arrives. No we're not there yet.

I wish so much that would happen and also buy a sat. TV Company as well...that would solve part of the "go to market" hurdle that Steve was talking about.
post #66 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjaosx View Post

The iPad was first and it set the bar too high, competition cannot catch up so they lose interest.

Is this a different case with the MBA?

With tablets the competitors have nothing new to offer. Why go with second best if it offers the same or less than the iPad.

The MBA has competition from the Ultrabooks just by the sheer fact that the Ultrabooks at least offer a standard Windows experience.

(Whenever I mention Windows in a post I think of a Canadian tv show that used to air called Corner Gas. Every time anyone mentioned the name of this other town (Woolerton) everyone would turn their head sideways and spit.)
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post #67 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHrubik View Post

I'm going to label this the most premature article of the decade. Windows 8 is being developed for tablets and computers. I think all the Windows OEMs will be gearing up for tablets for or after the Windows 8 launch.


Yes, Apple is doomed when Windows 8 appears. We all know that.
post #68 of 72
These companies are competing bass-ackwards. This is how it works:
A) Watch whatever Apple brings to market, B) Copy it as much as possible and offer your own cheaper solution.

You could apply that logic to the iTunes store, App store, iPod, iPhone, iPad, Macbook, Macbook Air and even the AppleTV. While none of these products were the absolute first in their category, they are currently ranked as the most popular & by far the most successful. Every competitor is making their own copycat version to try and do what those products do.

The problem is.. all of those products share one thing in common. Both the software & hardware are built by the same company.. Apple. That means they all work together within the Apple ecosystem to deliver a consistent user friendly, reliable, well built experience.. using high quality materials and the best support in the business. You simply cant come along with a phone made one company (Samsung) and an OS made by another company (Google) and equal that experience. The only thing you can do is cheapen your offering, to try and challenge Apple on price. And people are quickly finding out.. more often than not, its worth more in the long run to choose the Apple experience instead.

My personal Apple history reflects this and Im sure it does for millions of others. After the frustration of using a Creative Labs MP3 player.. I broke down and bought my iPod in 2005. I begin to use iTunes to sync it and purchase new music and media. My excellent experience with my iPod led to me getting a iPhone3GS in 2009 when it came time to replace my Blackberry. In 2010, I purchased a Macbook Pro to replace my HP laptop. And in 2011 I purchased an iPad2 to use as the ultimate convenience device. I also have AppleTV and the Apple Extreme Router.

It is absolutely amazing how all of these devices work with each other to make my life simplier and easier. Software updates are constantly available to keep things up to date, the app store keep things fresh and the resale value keeps me upgrading when necessary. I've since sold my 3GS for more than I initially paid for it to upgrade to the 4.. and did the same with my 4 to upgrade to the 4S. I sold my MBP for 10% less than what I paid for it new.. to upgrade to the latest 13" MBA.

With such a steller track record.. and a string of great experiences. I will always give Apple the benefit of the doubt, when its time to upgrade or purchase a new device, instead of going with a competitors cheaper copycat version. Or atleast until the cheaper copycats can deliver a very similar experience. (For example.. if the Samsung Galaxy III with ICS can equal the iPhone5, then I'd consider that as my next cell phone).
post #69 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by xSamplex View Post

Holy Cow! Until a solid competitor emerges, Apple will continue to charge a premium for their tablets. Let's hope somebody is up for the challenge! At least Amazon is setting a good example, albeit with a different sized screen.

I know you are trolling, but I fell bad for any hardware manufacturer that follows you type of advice!
Amazon's Kindle is selling like crazy though it will be a while before we know if word of mouth sustains their sales (it won't matter that several tech sites are slamming it if there is consumer demand).
HOWEVER, the big question is if Amazon can afford continuing high sales! Remember, they are selling each unit at break even or at a loss. They hope that they can make it up on media sales (we'll see) but anyone else that tries to follow their pricing method is doomeder than Apple in '95
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post #70 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchelljd View Post

exactly, Windows OS 8 on Tablet format ought to be really interesting. I don't believe that it is a bad thing at all to get competition and it is high time Microsoft competed with IOS Tablet.

I guess?

Quote:
Apple has a closed system,

How does that degrade the quality of my user experience?

Quote:
won't allow software from outside sources to be installed,

I guess you mean you have to go through the iOS App Store, but the overwhelming majority of the 500,00 applications available there are most certainly from "outside sources." And, again, how does damage my user experience?

Quote:
a not easy to understand file structure. many people will like a tablet which is more like a full PC and more open.

Where "not easy to understand" equals "not exposed to the user", arguably one of the iPads strengths You know those people who are walking around with their laptops open because they're afraid if they close the lid it'll go to sleep and never wake up, that we were talking about earlier? How much you want to bet that their desktops are jam packed with icons, because they're afraid if they tuck something away in the "file systems" they'll never find it again?

A tablet that is "more like a full PC" is a tablet that is more complex, more difficult to use, and more prone to unexpected behavior. In fact, these tablets have existed since well before the iPac, and they never went anywhere in the market, so I'm not sure why you think that's what the market craves now.

As far as "more open" goes, that's just an empty, meaningless phrase. What does that do for me?
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post #71 of 72
Forget the iPad, these other companies can't compete with a company that is selling tablets at a loss (Amazon)??? Nobody even wants to be [#3 and profitable] in the tablet game? Wow, 2012 is the end of the world, indeed.
post #72 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by gprovida View Post

1. Skating to were the puck is or was not where it will be

Apple Strategy: Learn to skate to where the puck is going.

Samsung Stratetgy: Learn to skate really really fast so you can mob the guy who skated to where the puck is going faster than the rest of the competition.

Both works.
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