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post #41 of 108
Well, back to the topic at hand, respect for Apple:

I nearly 100% agree with SDW2001:

[quote]
1) Release a G5 PowerMac in excess of 1.4 GHZ with DDR RAM and 266mhz bus. <hr></blockquote>

Exactly. And this G5 or whatever must not just match a Wintel in speed, it must surpass the Wintel. Because if a Mac costs 3x as much, it should perform better, not worse.

[quote]2) Release a flat panel GHZ iMac with an Apollo G4 and the top model with a SuperDrive (well I can live w/o the superdrive)<hr></blockquote>

Agreed, except I could forgive Apple for a superdriveless iMac. But a G4 for sure (1 GHz+), it is imperative that Apple expands the Altivec user base, so that more developers begin to embrace Altivec. Altivec needs to like Apple's holy grail. All Macs should use Altivec.

As for the iMac display, it should be a 15-16" WIDESCREEN LCD display. The iMac must never fall behind in display technology again. And the size is important because for the current iMac, the single most common reason for consumers deciding against the iMac is it's display size. It's too frickin small!!! Get a clue, Apple! WTF does Apple think larger monitors are selling so well for?


[quote]3 Bump ibook speeds too 900mhz or 1 GHZ. <hr></blockquote>

Yep. The iBook is great except it needs a 14" display and a 1 GHz G3, with a faster motherboard. But Apple's going in the right direction with it, because it's pricing is sane. Somebody must have been passing out freeThorazine at Apple the day they came up with the iBook's price.

[quote]4) Lower iPod price to $249 (Sorry, I laughed my ass off at $399....cool as it is and all)<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, no sh!t. Obviously Apple doesn't pay the same as consumers for the iPod's HD. They purchased iPod's components in bulk at wholesale prices. With the economic downturn Apple probably got a bitchin' deal on them.

Furthermore, Apple's marketing of the iPod proves that its margins are stratospheric. Apple didn't even bother with a Windows version, meaning that they don't care about high volume sales. This can only mean that they don't NEED high volume sales to turn a phat profit.

[quote]5) Ship a combo drive PBG4 with a 1GHZ+ G4. <hr></blockquote>

Yeah, slip an Apollo 1 GHz into the PBG4, and boost it's display resolution, and give it a respectable GPU chipset.

[quote]6) Lower PM Prices to 1299, 2199 and 2999. <hr></blockquote>

No, these aren't low enough prices.
$999 should be the low end powermac. So,
$999 G5 1.2
$1499 G5 1.4
$2299 G5 1.6
$2899 G5 dual 1.6

Or something like that. The low end powermac needs to compete with Wintel boxes...$1699 is such a joke for the current low end PMG4. lol.


[quote]7) Offer and Airport Card standard on all PM's. <hr></blockquote>
Yeah.


[quote]8) No shipping pro model should have less than 256MB of RAM. Top model should have 1GB. <hr></blockquote>

How about 512 MB instead of 1 GB? It's just that many people would NEVER use so much RAM. But for the lowend, 256 MB RAM should be minimum for sure. It's the smallest amount to use with OS X feeling comfortable.

Finally, I'd like to see Apple begin offering education customers some real discounts like they used to back in the early 90s. Currently the discount is more symbolic than anything.,,but Apple needs to bust into edu and take it over, again. Unless students can afford macs, Apple's future is uncertain. Students make habits that will determine their buying patterns for the rest of their lives. So Apple should be selling computers to students very near their cost. Accept small profit margins, with the understanding that the current user base is being enlarged, and the future user base is being guaranteed.

Most of this sh!t will never happen, so actually this is a really depressing post. Awwwh, hell!


[
post #42 of 108
What, in all reality and seriousness, would Apple theoretically have to come out with at MWSF or MWTO to get your RESPECT back?

Make iMacs upgradable (at least video card wize), make G4s upgradable chipwize, sell individual motherboards and allow you to upgrade your motherboard (this is REALLY stretching it, but Im fed up). Slash the prices of iMacs to the point where they are on par with PCs of the same speed zone (or just upgrade iMacs to the point where they are equal).

Screw the cases and release afforable expandable macs, that would do it. Bring back the 9600.
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post #43 of 108
LOL, there's no way a G5 PowerMac could ever be sold that cheaply from Apple. If the G5s are 64-bit CPUs, PowerMac prices will likely INCREASE a tad in price. If they're 32, they will probbaly stay where they are now.

With the iMac and PowerMacs (G4 or G5), price/performance will hopefully obliterate PCs beginning at MWSF.
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post #44 of 108
[quote]Originally posted by The Toolboi:
<strong>[i][...]
Screw the cases and release afforable expandable macs, that would do it. Bring back the 9600.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Man, are you NUTS? I'd sell my mama, but not my G4 case...Okay. Admitted. An hour ago I was whining about price (Junkyard boy, I liked your point about students! ), and we ARE paying for the cool design, that's for sure. So yea, bring back the 9600. But could then somebody lend me some money so that I can employ J. Ives and produce kickin'ass enclosures for the affecionados among us (that would be...all?)
Regards, H

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post #45 of 108
As an Apple shareholder (whose shares have gone up 70% in two months thanks in no small part to the iPod), Apple CERTAINLY wouldn't get ANY of my respect if they priced the iPod at $249 from the outset. You can't possibly be so ignorant from a business perspective that you fail to see the facts: The benefits of this device are compelling enough to plenty of consumers who are snapping them up at the current price of $399, and that likely doesn't even include most Christmas sales!

Sorry, but Applenut is 100% right here. Having learned well from the Cube fiasco, Apple's current pricing is by no means ridiculous on the PMG4, iPod, iMac, or anything (except RAM, which is improving). The iBook, in both its original and new form, continues to be the best portable computing value out there.

Stop thinking as greedy consumers who would want companies to take losses on products to the benefit of your bank account. If Apple listened to people like SDW we wouldn't be having this debate because they'd already be out of business and we'd be typing on $2000 Windows boxes (unless the DOJ decided to go through another lawsuit to keep Microsoft from pricing WinXP at $1000 a copy).

From my experience in international trade, I understand that large electronics corporations like Toshiba generally won't price minimum quantity wholesale orders for technology which is improved, but not completely new, at more than 20% above research adjusted cost. If they did there'd be plenty of resellers and distributors willing to increase volume to stomp out the lower-volume competition, and plenty of rival suppliers would think of cheaper replacement devices. There's no way ANYONE could have bought those drives for less than $250 at the time Apple made their initial order. By now, Apple has likely made subsequent orders, and the price may have gone down a bit, but for Apple to adjust their price within a month of releasing the thing would have been a completely ridiculous business decision.

That said, there's a good chance Apple may predict a sharp drop in sales of the iPod after Christmas, and adjust the price accordingly. That "accordingly" means according to predicted supply and demand, source price and market conditions, and to a lesser extent cross-marketing benefits (i.e. selling more Macs or improving brand image), not according to pricing of similar, inferior devices, or according to the whim of a couple of students who know they can't convince their parents to shell out $399 for a purely entertainment oriented device.

I say we "may" see a price decrease. If demand continues to match supply as it is doing now, Apple would be wise to keep the price intact and improve their margin. That's just good business.

NOW--to get back on topic, Apple has plenty of respect. How could Apple possibly have more respect within the film industry? A continuous stream of awards and praise (not to mention sales) are not enough respect for you?

What about the design and publishing industries? While there are plenty of mom n'pop design houses using Windows (to the chagrin of their output bureaus) to make letterheads and newsletters, the truth is that 95% of PROFESSIONAL design and publishing work done on personal computers is done on the Mac, even though there are competing Windows products able to do the same work. Is that not respect?

How about the music industry? Originally Mac-only, the Amelio era saw the PC catch up and surpass the Mac for use in studios. Amazingly, the Mac under Jobs snatched the business back to a certain extent, and the Mac currently has recovered a shitload of professional support and respect in an area where they nearly lost it all.

Now, with the iBook, Jobs has done it again, in Education. Administrators are now taken very seriously when they suggest a Mac-only environment. That is respect where respect was once almost lost.

If you ask me, Apple has more respect than any other personal computer hardware or software manufacturer (anyone who's ever used a Vaio quickly loses their awe of Sony, and Windows users don't usually respect Microsoft).

Where the Mac still lacks respect is clear: Clerical oriented businesses and businesspeople, the Mac ignorant general public (this ignorance largely due to Apple's admittedly horrendous marketing), students whose friends or parents make their purchasing decisions, the "DIY set", and clockspeed/hardware geeks. These groups generally overlap a great deal. For instance, I bet SDW2001 falls firmly into the last three categories.

Meanwhile, my stock continues to rally because a great deal of people besides myself are aware of the great deal of respect Apple is getting these days, and the potential Apple seems to have proven in every single one of its recent products for decreasing the "ignorance" factor.
post #46 of 108
what processor does the iPod use?
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post #47 of 108
respect will be regained at MacWorld SF Jan 2001 when/if we see PowerMac's like this:

***
Faster
***

1.0 GHz PowerPC G5, optional dual processor config $300 extra
512MB L2 cache & 2MB L3 cache
400 MHz system bus
256 MB DDR memory expandable to 16 GB
40 GB Ultra ATA drive
NVIDIA GeForce2 standard, GeForce3 $300 extra
Combo CD-RW drive standard, SuperDrive $200 extra
Modified QuickSilver case with two CD size drive bays
Gigabit Ethernet
Three 800Mbit/sec FireWire ports
Three USB ports
56K internal modem
Apple Pro Keyboard, Apple Pro Mouse

$1699

***
Fastest
***

1.2 GHz PowerPC G5, optional dual processor config $500 extra
512MB L2 cache & 4MB L3 cache
400 MHz system bus
384 MB DDR memory expandable to 16 GB
60 GB Ultra ATA drive
NVIDIA GeForce2 MX w/TwinView standard, GeForce3 $200 extra
Combo CD-RW drive standard, SuperDrive $200 extra
Modified QuickSilver case with two CD size drive bays
Gigabit Ethernet
Three 800Mbit/sec FireWire ports
Three USB ports
56K internal modem
Apple Pro Keyboard, Apple Pro Mouse

$2199

***
Ultimate
***
1.4 GHz PowerPC G5, optional dual processor config $700 extra
512 MB L2 cache & 8 MB L3 cache
400 MHz system bus
512 MB DDR memory expandable to 16 GB
80 GB Ultra ATA drive
GeForce3
SuperDrive
Modified QuickSilver case with two CD size drive bays
Gigabit Ethernet
Three 800Mbit/sec FireWire ports
Three USB ports
56K internal modem
Apple Pro Keyboard, Apple Pro Mouse

$2999
post #48 of 108
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>

WTF ever, dude. It might cost US that much....it probably costs them $150.00.</strong><hr></blockquote>

like a Senior trying weasel is way outta a tip... just reminded me of that...
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post #49 of 108
[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>As an Apple shareholder (whose shares have gone up 70% in two months thanks in no small part to the iPod), Apple CERTAINLY wouldn't get ANY of my respect if they priced the iPod at $249 from the outset. [...] Apple seems to have proven in every single one of its recent products for decreasing the "ignorance" factor.</strong><hr></blockquote> :confused:
Hey tonton. I think the information provided wsa quite interesting, but honestly not very visionary. Whatever, I strongly agree with you that Apple has done well with every single of their last products. But I thought we're talkin' LONGTERM here, as we all seem to have enough respect to donate our time to here to Apple. It would be new to me that Stockmarket value alone is an indicator for any longterm development. And in your post I think you underestimate a little the FUTURE usergroups of Macintosh Computers. Who is the founder of any consultancy which still uses Apple? People who usually were there when Apple still was superior. Who is it going to be tomorrow? The guys I study with. Do they use macs? NO. Why? Bad value for money, they say. Obviously morons, agreed. BUT I can't say it often enough: Apple really shouldn't rely on their Image as it has been created 10 or 15 years ago. Apple should just think a little different from the normal tracks, and really develop products which make US truly addictive to them. At the moment, they are loosing it. I can only speak for myself, and I am surely NOT addicted to machines which cost triple the money and make me spend triple the time in front of it. And hey: Designers with MP3 players...Maybe in my spare time. I need hardcore SPEED. At a good price. After all, it's a computer, and not a religion
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post #50 of 108
[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong> [...] or according to the whim of a couple of students who know they can't convince their parents to shell out $399 for a purely entertainment oriented device.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That was the best one today and a very good post tonton, thankyou!
post #51 of 108
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by applenut:
<strong>

figure in their reported margins and you'll get the figures they offer developers. employees also get their hardware at cost and its the SAME exact product list. so please, I've provided my info. If you're going to keep telling me I'm wrong you're gonna have to do a better job defending your point</strong><hr></blockquote>

Alright, applenut. Apple's margins are like, what, 30% on the PM? Perhaps more...I heard thirty was just the AVERAGE....

Anyway, 30% of 3499 is $1049.70......subtract that from 3499 and we have 2449.30.....and they charge 2700 for a developer's discount on a PM Dual.......right? That is only if we figure 30%....it could be even more.....i would assume it is not less, or if it is, not much less.....

How's that?
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post #52 of 108
I agree with you JD, Apple needs to focus more on the education side.

I have been a loyal Apple user since I was 11, my last computer being a IIvx which I have just donated to my younger sister. I am now a PhD student and can afford something a little more powerful and I am looking after SF to see what wil happen.

I figure that this kind of demographic is where Apple could really succeed (I know it already does in schools). Some of my friends, who have been Apple fans for years simply cannot afford to stay loyal to a company that charges more for a computer that performs the same as a 'faster' PC for most of the functions required for it (and don't give me any BS about the Mhz myth - I am intelligent enough to work out the numbers).

If Apple offered a greater incentive to the younger people, then they would see their market mature and this would seed Apple as a marque for future generations to admire. They need to regain this 'respect' in these people.

I am eagerly looking forward to MWSF, I hope that Apple can deliver the G5 (which, incidentally I do believe is coming very soon) and this may relieve the bottleneck that has been building behind the G4 (a gain of 367 Mhz in two years - WTF??).

I love all of Apple's products, but they need to pull the finger out of their ass. Men cannot live on beer alone.
post #53 of 108
I'm really begining to hear a lot of cry-babies in this thread. Comments about only respecting Apple if their products are faster than PC's, if their margins are lowered, if they build exactly what you want. QUIT YOUR CRYING!!

Apple is in business to be profitable. They have high margins because they can. Dell, Gateway, and the other PC manufacturers have to compete directly against each other and that's why they have such LOW profit margins. They PC manufacturers also have NO OVERHEAD compared to Apple. Look at the following points please.

1) System Design
PC manufacturers do very minimal design, they use of the shelf Mobo's and chipsets. All they do is come up with a configuration.
Apple on the other hand designs it own (or contracts out) mobo's and chipsets.

2)Processor
PC mfg's have no involvement other than being a middle man for AMD and Intel.
Apple invests money and man power, they even help steer the direction of the chips.

3)Industrial Design
PC mfg's for the most part use industry standard cases.
Apple uses custom designs for all it's products. This is not a waste of money because Apples designs are very user friendly and useful, not just good looking.

4)Operating System
PC mfg's, do I even have to say anything here?
Apple, do I even have to say anything here?

I'm sure I could come up with more if I wanted to. The point is that all of the above things cost money, but they also add value.

Let's face it, plug and play is only plug and play on Apple. That is due to Apple doing the system design, integration, and OS development. Altivec performance is another plus from tight integration in design. The other big plus here is Apple can push the industry in the direction it likes, not what the mobo makers and chipset designers say. Who pushed CD-ROMs, USB, Firewire, Ethernet, and other things as standard equipment (very small example). What kind of crappy hardware would we have if it were left to the PC industry to decide standards (oxy moron).

So what do the 4 things listed have in common? They all cost big bucks in R&D. I don't know how Apple pricing works, maybe someone can help. Some company's price R&D directly into product cost, others do not and have it as a seperate line item. Either way there is a lot of R&D that doesn't go into the cost of machines because it is for failed projects, or backup plans, alternate designs, etc... This is taken of the top of the profit margin. So while the profit margin looks good, it's not as juicy as you think it is.

I guess what it all comes down to is this. I RESPECT APPLE, because of all the great things they have single-handedly done for the industry and all the things the continue to do and will undoubtedly do in the future. I RESPECT APPLE because they have made great hardware and software in the past and will again in the future.

So they hit real hard times with the G4 and the saga of the AIM PPC alliance. How dare they not be a perfect company and always be number one. How dare they charge more for a product which could be compared to a hand built auto vs a cookie cutter detroit factory line auto.

Do you people understand the meaning of the word value??? Or do you understand the meaning of the word cheap?? Premiums are paid for the finer things in life and my Macintosh is one of them. So it's not the top of the heap in power right now, and maybe it never will be, but it will always be a Macintosh. I'll take that over a PC anyday.
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post #54 of 108
Single 1.6GHZ G5
Dual 1.4 GHz G5
and single 1.2GHz G5, for less than 1500$
Prices on the upper two models not in excess of 3500$.
Also nice was 64bit OS X with 64bit G5, but that's at least 6 months away.

And: stop selling any Mac with less than 256MB of RAM built in. Otherwise sell them with 0MB and let us do it ourselves.

G-news
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post #55 of 108
There is also the possibility that Toshiba is retailing them at a very high mark-up, and why wouldn't they? Have you seen what small removable stroage goes for in the pro digital image market? Even at 499, that card is a great deal for Pro photographers. Apple probably gets a decent wholesale deal, but it's still expensive because the supply is limited. Toshiba may not even want to supply too many to third parties like Apple if it takes away from it's own high margin sales. So, there is certainly room for a big price drop on that drive, but not for another 6-12 months when Toshiba can start to make more money on volume.

ASIDE: Apparently, the drive comes in two carriers, a PC-card interface, and one that looks almost the same with a similar steel case, but has IDE. Which one does Apple use?
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post #56 of 108
Can someone please tell me where they get these bullshit margin numbers from?

I mean people aren't even saying them with confidence now they are just saying .... well, its like, gotta be this ... right?

Give me a break, are some people in here just dolts?

Where can I get some real margin numbers from, please direct me, then we could stop talking out of our asses and have a meaningful discussion.

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post #57 of 108
[quote]Originally posted by Bogie:
<strong>Can someone please tell me where they get these bullshit margin numbers from?

I mean people aren't even saying them with confidence now they are just saying .... well, its like, gotta be this ... right?

Give me a break, are some people in here just dolts?

Where can I get some real margin numbers from, please direct me, then we could stop talking out of our asses and have a meaningful discussion.

Did I swear enough to get the necessary attention?</strong><hr></blockquote>


<a href="http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2001/oct/17results.html" target="_blank">http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2001/oct/17results.html</a>

This is the earnings press release from the 4th quarter 2001. The first paragraph states:

[quote]<strong>
...gross margins were 30.1 percent, compared to 25.0 percent in the year ago quarter.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: MasterZeus ]</p>
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post #58 of 108
So, Apple has actually increased it's margins at a time when the rest of the industry was cutting them back due to competition, poor forcasts, and a slow economy. Pretty good brand. Pretty solid investment, but damn hard on consumers. Considering most of the parts in their desktops are dirt cheap, their prices are a crime. I'd only buy two things from Apple: their laptops, and their shares.
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post #59 of 108
Something like these...

<a href="http://www.dynamism.com/c815/main.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.dynamism.com/c815/main.shtml</a>

<a href="http://www.dynamism.com/priusdeck/main.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.dynamism.com/priusdeck/main.shtml</a>

But with a $1499 US price tag....

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post #60 of 108
[quote]Originally posted by MasterZeus:
[QB]The first paragraph states: gross margins were 30.1 percent[QB]<hr></blockquote>

What I read is this:
[quote]For the quarter, the Company posted a net profit of $66 million [...] Revenues for the quarter were $1.45 billion <hr></blockquote>

Margin is 4.7%. Don't confuse margin with gross margin!
post #61 of 108
Thanks Zeus but [already forgot name ... one of those days, sigh] the guy who said don't compare gross with net is right.

They are not making 30% after cost, they are making 30% before cost. $66 million on $1.45 billion is not ... Apples to Apples when you are claiming 30% profit. If Apple made 30% profit they would have more than 4 billion in the bank.
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post #62 of 108
Exactly Bogie, Margin and profit are differnet things. I guess that means that Apple doesn't include R&D and other overhead expenses in it's "Gross Margin" which is the percent of sale price over cost to build (labor & parts only).

When I was in estimating determining the cost of manufacturing something I was blown away. Some things are very inexpensive (component costs), but add labor for the people building them, machines to surface mount and through hole and flow and selective solder and wash and test. It varies, but don't kid yourself and only look at component costs.

So in that report does it list if Apple line items R&D???? I'm going to have to go check it out.....
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post #63 of 108
[quote]Originally posted by JasonPP:
<strong>Something like these...

<a href="http://www.dynamism.com/c815/main.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.dynamism.com/c815/main.shtml</a>

<a href="http://www.dynamism.com/priusdeck/main.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.dynamism.com/priusdeck/main.shtml</a>

But with a $1499 US price tag....

</strong><hr></blockquote>


Holy Jesus!!! And some of you think Apple is ripping you off!!!!
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post #64 of 108
They are still missing a PowerBook G4 Duo, with a G4 tower as the bay. I'll make a picture when i got the time....
post #65 of 108
Well, well, well.

I poked around that Dynamism site a little, and <a href="http://www.dynamism.com/kxlcb10an/index.shtml" target="_blank">look what popped up</a>.

I couldn't find specs for it in English, but that drive looks incredibly slim.

One of those built into a PBG4 would garner some r-e-s-p-e-c-t, no?
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post #66 of 108
[quote]Originally posted by SuperKoch:
[QBAfter all, it's a computer, and not a religion [/QB]<hr></blockquote>

That's a pretty dangerous statement there.

Slacker makes a good point. Apple is the by far the hardest working PC maker. They put 110% into every product they build. I respect for that.
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post #67 of 108
I think Apple should remove the slot loading DVD.

I think they should have a DVD drive accessed by flipping the keyboard up.

That way they won't have to wait until *someone* comes out with a 10mmm or whatever slot loading superdrive, they could offer it next month!

I'd bet my left hazlenut that the mechanism for slot loading the disc is enough to make space for superdrive parts.
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post #68 of 108
[quote]Originally posted by JasonPP:
<strong>I think Apple should remove the slot loading DVD.

I think they should have a DVD drive accessed by flipping the keyboard up.

That way they won't have to wait until *someone* comes out with a 10mmm or whatever slot loading superdrive, they could offer it next month!

I'd bet my left hazlenut that the mechanism for slot loading the disc is enough to make space for superdrive parts.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think they should have anything as long as it's not slot loading so we won't have to wait for the drive.
post #69 of 108
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>

Alright, applenut. Apple's margins are like, what, 30% on the PM? Perhaps more...I heard thirty was just the AVERAGE....

Anyway, 30% of 3499 is $1049.70......subtract that from 3499 and we have 2449.30.....and they charge 2700 for a developer's discount on a PM Dual.......right? That is only if we figure 30%....it could be even more.....i would assume it is not less, or if it is, not much less.....

How's that?</strong><hr></blockquote>

read posts above about margins. they could help you.


if you can't admit you were an ass with your iPod pricing then don't do it. who cares. you're only looking dumber
post #70 of 108
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by applenut:
<strong>

read posts above about margins. they could help you.


if you can't admit you were an ass with your iPod pricing then don't do it. who cares. you're only looking dumber</strong><hr></blockquote>

Alright applenut, that just isn't required. In the past two weeks you have called my ideas "dumb" and personally called me an "ass".

I have said I disagree with you on points, sometimes quite extremely, but name calling is just not required. I don't understand why you need to do that.

My margins are very close and you know it. It is widely known the PowerMac is one of the highest margin items for them. We have to assume the margin is 30%.....it is a fair assumption. I had heard earlier today that the developer price on a PM Dual is $2700. I am assuming again, that this is correct.(though I'm willing to concede it might not be). To reach your developer cost=Apple cost theory we would have to use a margin of around 20%.

One of the things I have learned, applenut is that sometimes one doesn't need exact numbers to draw reasonable conclusions. We are only estimating and a difference of like 2% in this case doesn't really matter for our purposes.

Now, for ipod....I probably should have revised my original comment on it.....$249 was a bit much at this time (or little actually). However, there is no way Apple is only making $80 per iPod....no WAY!!! The fact is we don't know exactly what the margin on the iPod is. We can guess, but it is just estimating. And I still don't understand your obession with quoting RETAIL prices...that means SHIT!!!!

Just becuase you dug around and found some retail numbers means nothing about what Apple paid for it. Some companies, like GM for example, sell their products at a 50% mark up over their cost (i know this for a fact). If Toshiba cut them a deal at a much lower profit than usual they very well could have gotten them for $200, or even 150 for that matter.

Sometimes you make great points but sometimes I swear you just argue for the sake of being difficult.

Please leave the name calling off next time.
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post #71 of 108
[quote]Originally posted by smalM:
<strong>
Margin is 4.7%. Don't confuse margin with gross margin!</strong><hr></blockquote>


Exactly the point -- 90% of the people reading this can't tell a P&L statement from a chocolate cake recipe.

"Hey, I heard Apple's gross margins are 30%, so that means they can cut prices 29% and still be profitable, right?"

If you don't see the illogic in the above statement, either take a business class, or don't bother offering ill-informed ideas about what Apple oughtta do about price cuts.

Considering Apple's small market share, if they didn't maintain at least a 25% gross margin, they'd be out of business. Do you really think it would be a good thing for all us Apple users if they charged $250 for the iPod, $599 for the low-end iMac, and $2000 for the high-end Powermac, and filed for bankruptcy in a year?
post #72 of 108
[quote]Alright applenut, that just isn't required. In the past two weeks you have called my ideas "dumb" and personally called me an "ass". <hr></blockquote>

your price of 150 for cost of an iPod was dumb and you are being a stubborn ass by refusing to logically accept the fact that the iPod costs more to manufacture than you think it does. got a problem with that? tough.

[quote]
My margins are very close and you know it. It is widely known the PowerMac is one of the highest margin items for them. We have to assume the margin is 30%.....it is a fair assumption. I had heard earlier today that the developer price on a PM Dual is $2700. I am assuming again, that this is correct.(though I'm willing to concede it might not be). To reach your developer cost=Apple cost theory we would have to use a margin of around 20%.<hr></blockquote>

it appears that developer/employee pricing is right around 20 percent for all products except for the lowend iMac and iBook. now is that not a reasonable figure for yourself. Maybe its not exactly cost. but it gives you a good idea of what cost is for Apple.

and doesn't the gross margin number get inflated to 30% through software sales or is that a seperate figure.

30 percent on a single desktop CPU would be some massive margins.

[quote]
One of the things I have learned, applenut is that sometimes one doesn't need exact numbers to draw reasonable conclusions. We are only estimating and a difference of like 2% in this case doesn't really matter for our purposes. <hr></blockquote>

one of the things I have learned is that without any information to back myself up I have no basis for my point. you my friend have no basis for your numbers.

[quote]Now, for ipod....I probably should have revised my original comment on it.....$249 was a bit much at this time (or little actually). However, there is no way Apple is only making $80 per iPod....no WAY!!!<hr></blockquote>

why is that so unrealistic? they sell a 100,000 in this quarter that's 8,000,000 in profit and 39,900,000 in revenue. that's a 20 percent profit margin. now if cost is a bit lower, maybe 299. then margin is 25%. I don't see how they could have a bigger margin than 25 percent on the device. 25 percent is big for a item at that price.

[quote]We can guess, but it is just estimating. And I still don't understand your obession with quoting RETAIL prices...that means SHIT!!!! <hr></blockquote>

obsession? what the hell is wrong with you? seriously. I looked for OEM pricing. and I said the only thing I came up with was the retail prices.

now with your theory, Apple should charge less for the iPod in retail than Toshiba does for only the DRIVE!? That is what I am trying to tell you and you are somehow unable to comprehend. Think a little. If Apple was able to do your price people would just buy the iPod and rip the drive from it if they wanted the Toshiba drive.

[quote]If Toshiba cut them a deal at a much lower profit than usual they very well could have gotten them for $200, or even 150 for that matter. <hr></blockquote>

who's making up numbers here?

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: applenut ]</p>
post #73 of 108
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>
Now, for ipod....I probably should have revised my original comment on it.....$249 was a bit much at this time (or little actually). However, there is no way Apple is only making $80 per iPod....no WAY!!! The fact is we don't know exactly what the margin on the iPod is. We can guess, but it is just estimating. And I still don't understand your obession with quoting RETAIL prices...that means SHIT</strong><hr></blockquote>


Here's another point.... people are confusing the RETAIL price of the iPod with Apple's revenue from the iPod. Sure, Apple sells plenty of them direct through apple.com, but many more are sold through other outlets... CompUSA or Fry's or whatever. Now, if Fry's sells it to you for $399, do you suppose they're doing it as a favor to Apple, or is it possible that they're marking it up some amount? And if they're marking it up, then wouldn't that mean that Apple is receiving less than $399 for each iPod sold?

If you want Apple to "suggested retail" the iPod for $249, then they'd need to sell them to retailers for under $200 each. Considering that there's no possible way they're getting these hard drives (remember, they're not 3.5" hard drives and they're not even 2.5" laptop hard drives -- they're much smaller and more expensive than that) for anything close to $200, and also considering that (as Applenut mentioned) Apple has to add components and casing and packaging to the hard drive, a $249 retail on the iPod is way off in the future.
post #74 of 108
can't we all just get along??? <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" /> <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />


btw, there's too much crying around here....

apple hears you guys LOUD AND CLEAR, without needing to make another thread bashing apple.....they already know you want a G5, new imac, etc......they're working on it.....it takes time......chill......one more thread crying about performance isn't helping them at all....i'm sure they're working as fast as they can to give us the best, most reliable products......

when i buy an apple product, i look for QUALITY.....if it costs them 400 to make an ipod and cover all costs, then i'll believe them.....the ipod is the best out there.......making the best requires more time and effort = higher cost......
having it at 400 is hurting them enough already......i'm sure they really wanna bring the price down to get more costumers, but it takes time......


LISTEN:

everyone sit back, relax, and engage in MEANINGFULL, INTERESTING debate....and lets try to keep the crying to a minimum (though i agree a little bit is deserved and needed.)

<img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Max8319 ]</p>
post #75 of 108
Thread Starter 
Ok, well Oh My ****ing God......

1) I admitted like four posts ago that my initial figures were probably off. AND, AGAIN, I never said it costs only $150 to make an iPod...NEVER. I also later said perhaps 299 for a retail price of the ipod was more reasonable.....

What I AM saying is that I still don't think they paid what you think they did. I could be wrong, but I think Apple has huge mark-ups in general....don't you? And anyway, I never actually claimed to definitely know what they paid.....you are the one who is sticking like GLUE to your assertion that Apple is paying a high price for the drive, based on nothing but retail prices....that is why I used the word "obsession"....who has baseless numbers here?

2) My theory of selliing an iPod below the cost of the drive"???? WTF does that mean? I never said that. In any case, if your $499 number is correct for your retail price (this is what you mentioned right?), then they are already selling it under the retail cost of the drive anyway.

You have no basis other than than the retail price. I was just trying to say that:

1) I don't think they make as little as you think they do on the iPod.

2) I think it is possible that the drive goes for one hell of a lot less than the retail price. Now, I ask you...do YOU honestly believe that it is NOT POSSIBLE that they paid $200 for the drive? Because until I find out for sure I think that is at least reasonable number....or at least possible.

And for your comments: "think a little" and "what you can't comprehend", well I seem to have been able to to think enough and comprehend enough to hold down a full time teaching position, get a college degree with honors, and be accepted in graduate school.

My numbers aren't that far off becuase if you think that Apple doesn't make near 30% on a PM then you are more naive then I thought.

One more thing applenut: You remember our "age doesn't matter argument"? Well, I think it DOES matter. It is not that I don't respect your opinion, or that your not entitled...it is just that you refuse to acknowledge I have been dealing with the world for 10 more years than you have been. I have bought cars, computers, sold a house and settled an estate as an executor of a will. I know a little more about how things operate in the world than you do.....it is not that I think I'm better, I just think you fail to recognize that experience does count for something.

So who is the stubborn one now?

In any case, the iPod was only a minor point to this thread. The point was Apple charges huge money for products that don't compete.

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
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post #76 of 108
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Max8319:
<strong>can't we all just get along??? <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" /> <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />


btw, there's too much crying around here....

apple hears you guys LOUD AND CLEAR, without needing to make another thread bashing apple.....they already know you want a G5, new imac, etc......they're working on it.....it takes time......chill......one more thread crying about performance isn't helping them at all....i'm sure they're working as fast as they can to give us the best, most reliable products......

when i buy an apple product, i look for QUALITY.....if it costs them 400 to make an ipod and cover all costs, then i'll believe them.....the ipod is the best out there.......making the best requires more time and effort = higher cost......
having it at 400 is hurting them enough already......i'm sure they really wanna bring the price down to get more costumers, but it takes time......


LISTEN:

everyone sit back, relax, and engage in MEANINGFULL, INTERESTING debate....and lets try to keep the crying to a minimum (though i agree a little bit is deserved and needed.)

<img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Max8319 ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

The iPod may well be the best, But right now, the iMac and the PM aren't. And they charging freakin outrageous prices for the PM......the iMac is much more reasonable, and we all know it is getting updated so I'm not crying about that.

If they are going to charge 3499 for a machine without a monitor then it damn well better be the fastest most bitchin thing on the planet. It's not.
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post #77 of 108
The iPod is way over-priced. Check out the Treo 10 found here:

<a href="http://www.edigital-store.com/treo10.html" target="_blank">http://www.edigital-store.com/treo10.html</a>

It must be the FireWire port that adds $150.00 to the cost of the unit. Because it sure isn't the harddrive.
post #78 of 108
that treo uses a notebook hd, but the ipod uses a 1.7" (?) hd

yeah, the PM do need an update and you'll get one at MWSF......patience
post #79 of 108
I don't think we're comparing apples to Apples.

&gt;&gt; iPOD &lt;&lt;
2.43 x 4.02 x 0.78 inches
(7.6 cubic inches)
6.5 ounces
2" lcd, 160x128 pixels, backlit
10 hour battery (lithium polymer)
firewire interface
Apple brand name

&gt;&gt; treo 10 &lt;&lt;
3.03 x 4.63 x 0.77 inches
(10.8 cubic inches)
8 ounces
"large" LCD, 100x64, NON-backlit
6 hour battery (lithium-ion)
USB interface
"who the hell is e-Digital?" brand name

You don't have to be an Apple zealot to see that you pay extra for the iPod, but you get more. The very latest technology (tiny hard drive, polymer battery) always comes at a premium.

Oh, and the Treo was $400 retail when it was released earlier this year. No doubt they had to cut the price when Archos cut the price of their Jukebox 6000 (also larger than the iPod, also USB) to $250 also.
post #80 of 108
[quote] Do you really think it would be a good thing for all us Apple users if they charged $250 for the iPod, $599 for the low-end iMac, and $2000 for the high-end Powermac, and filed for bankruptcy in a year? <hr></blockquote>

The idea is that Apple is loosing sales because of their high prices. If they lowered their prices then we think that their sales may go up. With higher volume, a business can make the same profit with lower margins.

I know for a fact several people who would have bought macs if the prices were better. The iMac's price was ok, but they wanted a decent display....and they would have even spent $1800 or so on a Mac if it were like an imac with a larger display! But Apple refuses to offer such a computer! That's just dumb.

All Apple had to do was price the cube at $1100-1300, then with a nice Apple display it would have totaled 1600 and 1900. This fills in the gap in their lineup, and I'm certain it would give Apple more customers.

I don't understand why it's so hard for Apple to figure out that if they cut prices to expand their sales volume, and marketshare, that their profits will remain the same or even grow. Sure, MAYBE it wouldn't work, but Apple won't even TRY it! All they need to do is release a "test balloon, a cheaper mac, and see what it's sales are like. If it's a bust, then can it. The Cube COULD have been such an experiment, but Apple got greedy and blew it.
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