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The G5 and what it means for future Macs

post #1 of 357
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Work on the G5 (MPC7500) is progressing nicely at Motorola and I can only assume Apple had a role in the development as there are many features included that are condusive to a top-notch desktop processor capable of bring the PowerMac into the 21st centure as a real performer in the compute intensive field.

A recent development box has allowed us to open and examine some details that appeal to us as engineers and hardware designers. One of the machines is built in a G4 case with a smaller motherboard. the interesting part is that the motherboard is a cheaper 4 layer variety while the CPU daughter card is made on a more expensive 8 layer board. the reason for this is very simple and I will get to that in a moment. The CPU card itself is similar in shape and pin connector to the one used in modern G4s but is a bit larger in surface area. The reason for this is the fact that the G5 CPU has a built-in memory controller that interacts with high-speed DDR-SDRAM. This RAM runs at 133MHz DDR but the G5 documentation we have (preliminary) states that 166MHz DDR (333MHz effective) is supported. To run at these fast speeds you must utilize 2 dimensional PCB space efficiently. Apple has done this well. On the CPU daughter card you will find 3 slots for DDR-SDRAM DIMMS. They are distanced from the actual CPU core to allow for the heatsink placement, but in this configuration (since on the card the CPU is hard soldered to the PCB) you can design DIMM slots that can operate at 133, 166, and quite possibly 200MHz at DDR speeds. In fact, I believe the impedence should be low enough to allow for 4 DIMM slots. No L3 RAM is located on the card although it is fully supported under the documentation.

RapidIO is used to connect the CPU to a centralized controller that controls peripherals such as gigabit ethernet, Firewire, USB, ATA interface, audio input/output, AGP/PCI bridge, etc. The RapidIO interface operates in a 16 bit full duplex mode running at 500MHz. This bus is seperate from the memory bus and therefore asyncronous. It does not share the bus either like with the G4 and MPX. PCI-X seems to be implimented fully (it's backwards compatible with PCI 32/64) and AGP remains operating at 4X speeds.

A whole new paradigm in PowerMac design will be introduced soon and it will be a modern example in smart computer design, taking advantage of new trechnologies and foward thinking design. These are late beta machines and the finishing touches are being applied to cut out the rough edges for consumer consumption.
post #2 of 357
OK- On with the bitchin' and whinin' wrt the truth of rumours.

ready, set, go!
I heard that geeks are a dime a dozen, I just want to find out who's been passin' out the dimes
----- Fred Blassie 1964
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I heard that geeks are a dime a dozen, I just want to find out who's been passin' out the dimes
----- Fred Blassie 1964
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post #3 of 357
I'm drooling already... :eek:

Two questions:

1) Does it seem likely to you that they will be ready for MWNY? I know you wouldn't know any exact release dates, but based on your experience with it does "late beta" probably mean "ready to ship by July"?

2) Any clues about the final case design? You mentioned a smaller motherboard, but anything about PCI slots, drive bays, overally appearance, or other details?

Thanks for the info. It's been a long time since we've heard anything on this front.
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"Mathematics is the language with which God has written the Universe" - Galileo Galilei
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post #4 of 357
god damn. i can't rule out the idea of you just making all this up, but it's hell, sounds good to me.

yeah, what about the case design other than the fact that the designers worked hard on it? spill it buddy....
the greyisgood guy
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post #5 of 357
He said they are using the old G4 case to house the innards.
post #6 of 357
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>He said they are using the old G4 case to house the innards.</strong><hr></blockquote>

all he said was "one of"
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post #7 of 357
This sounds impressive, and a bit more specific information contained than in previous posts.

No information about 64 bit though?

OK, JYD bring it on as to why we shouldn't listen to this latest one...



[ 03-19-2002: Message edited by: DaveLee ]</p>
post #8 of 357
umm, this guy's predictions for mwsf were total shite guys... dorsal has no more credibility. in fact, now that macnn has turned into a snivelling rumormongering "news" organization (architosh's endless trolling for hits with g5 news, the inclusion of g5 in the macnn powermac forum header), i wouldn't be surprised if "dorsal" is in fact a member of the macnn staff trolling for hits.
post #9 of 357
[quote]Originally posted by typedesigner:
<strong>umm, this guy's predictions for mwsf were total shite guys... dorsal has no more credibility.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Gee, that didn't take long.

Dorsal didn't make any freakin' predictions. He's not in any position to predict what products Apple is going to release and he's never claimed to be. He simply reports what he's seen (or claims to have seen, for you skeptics) in his capacity as an engineer. If he hazards the occasional guess as to when a certain technology could ship, that's all it is -- a guess. This ain't brain surgery, people.

People get such a hardon over this stuff, as though they're absolutely determined to show off how savvy they are and how they refuse to be fooled by anyone. Good for you. Now go read something else.
post #10 of 357
I forget... is "Dorsal M" the original Dorsal, or one of the poseurs?
post #11 of 357
anyway what he said sound real. He just give further detail about the size of the mobo and daughter card which need an certain expertise.
but he did not say :
what is the ata bus : ata 66, 100 , 133 or serial ata ?
amount of L2 cache of the 7500 : 256 KByte or 512 KByte ?
Firewire first generation or firewire second generation
USB or USB 2.
What video card did he see in it ...

If you where able Dorsal M to see that rapid I/O and PCI X was implemanted you will be able to answers at these questions (perhaps not the size of the L2 cache)
post #12 of 357
If you look at his last thread you'll see the Admins verified his identity as the old Dorsal. Now if he's legit in the first place is another topic of debate.
post #13 of 357
Since when is the G5 a 7500? Motorola calls it the 8500.
post #14 of 357
I don't believe Dorsal knows jack about the G5. I suspect Dorsal (and MOSR) read the info posted in this link (http://www.macedition.com/nmr/nmr_20020313.php) and then posted their own 7500/G5 speculations based on the info from this link.

And why should I believe somebody who thinks they are a naked mole rat???
post #15 of 357
Mot doesn't call anything the 8500. They have an announced chip called the 8540 jammed packed with embedded features. They took 7500 off the roadmap. To me this either means the G5 used by Apple will indeed be a 85XX or that the 7500 (the original name) will be an Apple specific part number that will not be available for outside buyers. Therefore no reason to include it on a roadmap.
post #16 of 357
Now what is the record number of posts to a thread?
Wll I have my G5 so I am off to get a life; apart from this post...
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Wll I have my G5 so I am off to get a life; apart from this post...
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post #17 of 357
[quote]Originally posted by JW Pepper:
<strong>Now what is the record number of posts to a thread?</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's more than 1000, but it was a game, Jonathan finish to close it, before the AI server explode

I doubt that this thread will reach the record, since there is too many differents threads dealing with the G5 , however Mac World Tokyo is very near, so perhaps we can have some subject to deal here on AI.

[ 03-19-2002: Message edited by: powerdoc ]</p>
post #18 of 357
Yeah! Dorsal's back! Can Kormac be far behind?
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post #19 of 357
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>Mot doesn't call anything the 8500. They have an announced chip called the 8540 jammed packed with embedded features. They took 7500 off the roadmap. To me this either means the G5 used by Apple will indeed be a 85XX or that the 7500 (the original name) will be an Apple specific part number that will not be available for outside buyers. Therefore no reason to include it on a roadmap.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sounds reasonable given that apple was looking to hire PPC engineers 1 1/2 years ago.
I heard that geeks are a dime a dozen, I just want to find out who's been passin' out the dimes
----- Fred Blassie 1964
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I heard that geeks are a dime a dozen, I just want to find out who's been passin' out the dimes
----- Fred Blassie 1964
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post #20 of 357
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>Mot doesn't call anything the 8500. They have an announced chip called the 8540 jammed packed with embedded features. They took 7500 off the roadmap. To me this either means the G5 used by Apple will indeed be a 85XX or that the 7500 (the original name) will be an Apple specific part number that will not be available for outside buyers. Therefore no reason to include it on a roadmap.</strong><hr></blockquote>

unless he's making an assumption about who made the chips, i believe he's wrong. motorola isn't making the g5 for apple. although the timing seems about right, just not the source of the chip.
post #21 of 357
[QUOTE]Outsider
".... or that the 7500 (the original name) will be an Apple specific part number that will not be available for outside buyers."

That would sure put a crimp in the processor upgrade market
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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post #22 of 357
[quote]Originally posted by Dorsal M:
<strong>... In fact, I believe the impedence should be low enough to allow for 4 DIMM slots.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just curious what you mean by that... Characteristic impedance of the traces? Output impedance of the driver?

Transmission line theory was a long time ago so it wouldn't surprise me if I am missing something, but how does that affect the load driving capability of the design? Even with transceivers, that's a pretty big load for anything to drive and relatively high speeds!
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post #23 of 357
rickag, there already is a crimp on upgraders. I have yet to see a non-Apple 500MHz+ upgrade for any Apple machine. Although this may be because of minimum quantity bought is too high now.
post #24 of 357
***************************************

Any information about Dual Processors?

also, what speed is the G5 at the moment?
(is it still below 1ghz)

***************************************
==================================
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"It's Happening. Fact."

Ilann Hepworth.
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post #25 of 357
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>anyway what he said sound real. He just give further detail about the size of the mobo and daughter card which need an certain expertise.
but he did not say :
what is the ata bus : ata 66, 100 , 133 or serial ata ?
amount of L2 cache of the 7500 : 256 KByte or 512 KByte ?
Firewire first generation or firewire second generation
USB or USB 2.
What video card did he see in it ...

If you where able Dorsal M to see that rapid I/O and PCI X was implemanted you will be able to answers at these questions (perhaps not the size of the L2 cache)</strong><hr></blockquote>

Remember this was a prototype most probably designed just to test specific bits so its unlikely it has full spec parts like HDDs, graphics cards etc. If they added it all in there any bugs would be much harder to find.

There might be other beta boxes with various ATA controllers, firewire chipsets etc all designed to iron out problems in those features. Then eventually all the parts will be brought together in one box.

I might be wrong, but I'd do it that way.

Here's hoping these things debut at 2Ghz not 1.2.
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http://www.blackcat-software.com/
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post #26 of 357
At last, we hear from Dorsal again.
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post #27 of 357
Ahhh the Dorsal post.. followed by lots of usless lamp-ray bottom feeders.. like this post..
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post #28 of 357
[quote]Originally posted by admactanium:
<strong>

unless he's making an assumption about who made the chips, i believe he's wrong. motorola isn't making the g5 for apple. although the timing seems about right, just not the source of the chip.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Got that feeling myself, the contract with Moto is up this summer, Apple may opt for IBM. Which would be better since IBM makes lots of different CPUs and is a hired gun to manufacture anything that is thrown at them. I think that it is obvious that Moto is concentrating on the embedded market, at least the embedded market that has little in common with G5 chips.

Ty
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post #29 of 357
Are these for WWDC in May or MWNY in July? I'm guessing July. I hope something like this is announced to ship in July (or August or September or ...). I've got money for one. My Smurf G3/400 is sloooow ripping MP3 and surfing the web under X.
post #30 of 357
Pass the salt...
post #31 of 357
[quote]Originally posted by CodeWarrior:
<strong>Are these for WWDC in May or MWNY in July? I'm guessing July. I hope something like this is announced to ship in July (or August or September or ...). I've got money for one. My Smurf G3/400 is sloooow ripping MP3 and surfing the web under X.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Those are my two biggest probs in X right now...iTunes and every other MP3 app is dog slow. IE is slightly slower on load speed...but the main prob is scrolling. My other main problem is AIM..but I only use that for file trans. Go Adium!
post #32 of 357
At least it's a specific report, and not something about having 6 different G5s, all with different motherboards, different types of RAM, different buses, etc. I find this Dorsal report more believable than some others, but still it's not very believable. Doesn't Apple SEAL the prototype hardware that gets seeded? And if not, then aren't there only a few developers that would need hardware access, and thus wouldn't it be easy for Apple to track down Dorsal's identity?
post #33 of 357
[quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:
<strong>At least it's a specific report, and not something about having 6 different G5s, all with different motherboards, different types of RAM, different buses, etc. I find this Dorsal report more believable than some others, but still it's not very believable. Doesn't Apple SEAL the prototype hardware that gets seeded? And if not, then aren't there only a few developers that would need hardware access, and thus wouldn't it be easy for Apple to track down Dorsal's identity?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I was wondering that too. But we're assuming Dorsal M is one developer. Maybe its a group (network?) of people who feed one source - a deep throat if you like.

We'll never know, but italways seems his posts are well researched and therefore more beleivable.
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post #34 of 357
If Dorsal is the real thing (ex. a developer) I think his actions are approved by someone at Apple... I think he is just a way of leaking a few details to the public to keep the interest alive.

Anyways I do believe what he is saying is true as far as internal development goes, but a prototype is one thing, while the shipping product is another.
post #35 of 357
[quote]I forget... is "Dorsal M" the original Dorsal, or one of the poseurs?<hr></blockquote>

You'd think Apple would have clamped down on this leak if he was actually describing real prototypes...

Anyway, at least kormac tried a bit harder. Either kormac was from Korea or he spent some time looking for a korean proxy server. And kormac's speculation was a lot more entertaining.

And if you scrutinize some parts of e-www.motorola.com, it's not hard to figure out why one would believe in the existence of an MPC7500.
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post #36 of 357
[quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:
<strong>At least it's a specific report, and not something about having 6 different G5s, all with different motherboards, different types of RAM, different buses, etc. I find this Dorsal report more believable than some others, but still it's not very believable. Doesn't Apple SEAL the prototype hardware that gets seeded? And if not, then aren't there only a few developers that would need hardware access, and thus wouldn't it be easy for Apple to track down Dorsal's identity?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Earlier in product development there are generally more wildly varying configurations. As the product develops it narrows down to a more specific design. As it gets closer to the final hardware it becomes more advisable to allow 3rd parties closer access, and thus more knowledge. The above message (and the ones in December) is sufficiently vague that I doubt anybody at Apple could narrow down which of their seeds was leaking.

Believing that Dorsal's December posts indicated a January introduction of the new chip was obviously too optimistic -- the timeline was too short for a new machine introduction. This message is at least consistent with his previous ones in that it implies that the hardware has matured and is in a near-beta state now. This could put it in line with a summer release, either WWDC or MWNY. Not a chance of it happening at Tokyo.

The details of the PCB vs daughtercard design are interesting and new information. I don't know about the impedance stuff, but the high-quality small daughtercard vs lower-quality (but cheaper) main board strikes me as an interesting design innovation. The hope for supporting multiple speeds of DDR is encouraging.

As for why all these rumours might show up at once ... while it might be that they feed off of eachother, it could also be that it is driven by a new round of test hardware from Apple. Dorsal's info tends to be more detailed and insightful, and thus takes longer to come up with ... unlike somebody who reports what he sees at first glance.
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post #37 of 357
from what i understand the 7500 is the g5,the desktop version.
the 8500 is the embedded version of the g5.
if you go back and look at THE REGISTER it plainly says that the g5 WAS the 7500 but was renamed the 8500.
from what i understand the 7500 is capable of having "multiple cores and altivec units",up to 4
on a chip.
regardless of whether the 7500 is the "true" g5 or not it will "kill" the appollo chip.
i hope this is the 7500 chip we have been reading about.
i just hope apple puts in all the goodies weve been reading about like usb2.0,gigawire,and the optical port.
this 7500 chip is a 32/64 bit chip which is why 10.2 will be 64-bit.
im very excited indeed.
just imagine running itunes,iphoto or idvd with this machine,it will scream!
post #38 of 357
[quote]Originally posted by imacman287:
<strong>a prototype is one thing, while the shipping product is another.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Amen to that...

Also:
1) Wasn't there a rumor going around that Apple would call the 7500 the G5 even though it's really just a G4 with some G5 features? I mean remember that the original G4 was a G3 with an altivec unit on it.

2) One interesting thing about Dorsal's post was the RapidIO running @ 500MHz. To my knowlegde, the HyperTransport consortium has only gone public with speeds up to 400 MHz. Apple is one of it's strongest players though, and I wouldn't be supprised if they had internal tests going on with higher speed RapidIO.

3) I may have heard wrong, but when your memory goes at 333MHz or 400MHz that L3 cache is really not needed.
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post #39 of 357
Obviously Apple doesn't smack down this shit anymore. First of all, we have all those people who want to look so wise be showing they can't be fooled. Then, if Apple did lay the smack down on some NDA-violator, it would prove that they were telling the truth, and stir up all kinds of publicity about it. That kind of defeats the purpose of all the secrecy, doesn't it?

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post #40 of 357
Naw, Apple would hire a few thugs to smack him down. A chain and a few lead pipes do wonders for information leaks, without getting the media involved.
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