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Payroll Tax Battle: Shameless

post #1 of 58
Thread Starter 
It looks like Obama has found a way to conjure up another "emergency" that has to be dealt with "right now." By dealing with it, I mean that he gets to paint the GOP as poor and middle class-hating, debt- exploding monsters.

White House sets up site for "average workers" to share what $40 per paycheck means to them.

Coupled that with the Democratic leadership comments from yesterday:

Hoyer: "You're walking out, just like so many Republicans have walked out on the middle class."

These tactics are despicable. The reality is that both sides want to extend the cut. However, the GOP wishes to do it for a full year and wants to attach the Keystone pipeline to it. Obama would rather beat them over the head with "blocking a tax cut for working families" in an election year than actually enact a policy that creates thousands of jobs.

The whole thing disgusts me.
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post #2 of 58
Yeah, it's despicable, SDW. The republicans are against earmarks and te republicans support tax cuts. So tell me why the FUCK you give those assholes a pass on this.
post #3 of 58
So the Bush tax cuts don't require any cost reductions to pay for them while Bush is in office, but the payroll tax cuts are allowed to sunset under Obama. Fascinating. Tonton, I don't get it. Are they immune to cognitive dissonance or are they so brainwashed and/or stupid to even realize that they are hypocritical douchebags?

 

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post #4 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So the Bush tax cuts don't require any cost reductions to pay for them while Bush is in office, but the payroll tax cuts are allowed to sunset under Obama. Fascinating. Tonton, I don't get it. Are they immune to cognitive dissonance or are they so brainwashed and/or stupid to even realize that they are hypocritical douchebags?

The payroll tax cut is different because 1) It directly takes revenue from SS and 2) It's not the kind of tax reform/cut that really stimulates the economy. It does help people somewhat, but it's mostly political to begin with.
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post #5 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yeah, it's despicable, SDW. The republicans are against earmarks and te republicans support tax cuts. So tell me why the FUCK you give those assholes a pass on this.

See above. It's not the same situation. Either way, I don't like how the GOP handled it.
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post #6 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

See above. It's not the same situation. Either way, I don't like how the GOP handled it.

The GOP couldn't think of a narrative simple enough to counter Obama. That means the need a better messenger. Where are the GOP ads requesting stories of people who have been laid off during the Obama first term who would like to apply for one of the Keystone pipeline jobs?

It isn't even that hard to think of a proper counter because I just did it. The establishment GOP doesn't want a fight though. It proves to me more than ever we need someone like Gingrich to head this ticket during the next election.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #7 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

The payroll tax cut is different because 1) It directly takes revenue from SS and 2) It's not the kind of tax reform/cut that really stimulates the economy. It does help people somewhat, but it's mostly political to begin with.

So wait... let me get this straight. You're actually admitting that you support tax cuts that directly go to the rich more than you support tax cuts that directly go to the middle class. Why, because the money that goes to the rich and may or may not 'trickle down' helps the economy more? Uh... okay. The economy for whom?

Keep in mind, the rich have NOT suffered one bit during this downturn.
post #8 of 58
Double post
post #9 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So wait... let me get this straight. You're actually admitting that you support tax cuts that directly go to the rich more than you support tax cuts that directly go to the middle class. Why, because the money that goes to the rich and may or may not 'trickle down' helps the economy more? Uh... okay. The economy for whom?

Keep in mind, the rich have NOT suffered one bit during this downturn.

To answer your question...yes. Why? Because it's proven to work. A rising tide raises all ships.
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post #10 of 58
So the rising tide of the stock market and corporate profits this past year has reduced unemployment proportionally, correct? But, but...a rising tide raises all ships! SDW said it! HOW CAN THIS BE???


 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #11 of 58
In this case, the rising tide of the rich has helped fuck all. So can we spell ideological failure? Yes, we can.
post #12 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So wait... let me get this straight. You're actually admitting that you support tax cuts that directly go to the rich more than you support tax cuts that directly go to the middle class. Why, because the money that goes to the rich and may or may not 'trickle down' helps the economy more? Uh... okay. The economy for whom?

Keep in mind, the rich have NOT suffered one bit during this downturn.

SDW and trumpy don't get it but it's this kind of example that will help Obama make his case in the next election.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #13 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So wait... let me get this straight. You're actually admitting that you support tax cuts that directly go to the rich more than you support tax cuts that directly go to the middle class. Why, because the money that goes to the rich and may or may not 'trickle down' helps the economy more? Uh... okay. The economy for whom?

Keep in mind, the rich have NOT suffered one bit during this downturn.

First you are lying when you say the rich haven't suffered one bit. As an example Warren Buffet lost 6 billion dollars just this year. Does that mean he starved or sat homeless in the rain? No but I know plenty of people who have given back cars as homes but not given back an inch on their wastelines either.

I can't claim to speak for SDW but I suspect the clearer version of what he is trying to say is that you discourage what you tax and that we need to avoid taxing investment. The rich do indeed invest but you need not be rich to invest at all. Interest on savings right now gets a 1099 and is taxed. Stock gains are taxed. If you buy a retail building fix it up and rent it out you are taxed.

This tax cut here isn't at all about investment. It is straight up looting Social Security taxes to buy votes and Republicans should not have caved in it at all not should they have passed the first version. It is nothing more than a gimmic.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #14 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

See above. It's not the same situation. Either way, I don't like how the GOP handled it.

You don't like the way the GOP handled it. But you started a thread blaming the Democrats. Typical.
post #15 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

First you are lying when you say the rich haven't suffered one bit.

Are there rich people who have made losses? Sure. But most of them have come out way, way ahead. If you deny that, then you, sir, are the liar.
post #16 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

First you are lying when you say the rich haven't suffered one bit. As an example Warren Buffet lost 6 billion dollars just this year. Does that mean he starved or sat homeless in the rain? No.

WHY DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THIS.

People HAVE been starving. People HAVE been made homeless. And they are poor people.

It is not 'suffering' to lose 6 billion dollars when you have a fortune of a trillion.

It IS suffering when you lose $250 a week and that is all your income.

This isn't a fucking Ayn Rand novel. This isn't your bullshit economic Dungeons and Dragons, this is real life, and real people, and you're so fucking fixated on your ideological winner's medal you didn't notice when you lost your heart.
post #17 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Are there rich people who have made losses? Sure. But most of them have come out way, way ahead. If you deny that, then you, sir, are the liar.

This is your assertion. Prove it. Prove that the net-worth of say the richest 5% in the U.S. had no decline during this downturn and as a whole the group came out whatever you think is "way way ahead."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

WHY DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THIS.

People HAVE been starving. People HAVE been made homeless. And they are poor people.

It is not 'suffering' to lose 6 billion dollars when you have a fortune of a trillion.

No one in the world is a trillionaire so this is just ranting and hyperbole. The richest man in the world is Carlos Slim at $63 billion and the richest American is Bill Gates at $59 billion. Since it is clear you are off and just making crap up you should go calm down and come back around when you have some facts to discuss.

Quote:
It IS suffering when you lose $250 a week and that is all your income.

It isn't suffering when your income is $2000 a week and you lose all your income? It isn't suffering when your income is $20,000 a week and you lose all your income?

When is losing all your income not painful?

Quote:
This isn't a fucking Ayn Rand novel. This isn't your bullshit economic Dungeons and Dragons, this is real life, and real people, and you're so fucking fixated on your ideological winner's medal you didn't notice when you lost your heart.

Go take your meds. Spitting at the screen doesn't feed people and feeding them the seed corn makes everyone starve. That is reality and pissing yourself won't change that.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #18 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

It looks like Obama has found a way to conjure up another "emergency" that has to be dealt with "right now." By dealing with it, I mean that he gets to paint the GOP as poor and middle class-hating, debt- exploding monsters.

White House sets up site for "average workers" to share what $40 per paycheck means to them.

Coupled that with the Democratic leadership comments from yesterday:

Hoyer: "You're walking out, just like so many Republicans have walked out on the middle class."

These tactics are despicable. The reality is that both sides want to extend the cut. However, the GOP wishes to do it for a full year and wants to attach the Keystone pipeline to it. Obama would rather beat them over the head with "blocking a tax cut for working families" in an election year than actually enact a policy that creates thousands of jobs.

The whole thing disgusts me.

You disgust me with your GOP Party always postponing and blaming others for their screw ups.The GOP full year will eventually intervene and eliminate most entitlement programs knowing their clandestine ways.
post #19 of 58
I understand you find this point difficult, trumptman, but luckily I am here to explain it you in very simple terms.

Warren Buffet is worth 39 billion dollars, according to my ten second google.

If he loses 38 of his 39 billion, he is still very rich.

Because that nice Mr Buffet still has a billion.

In fact, he could lose 99% of his worth, and he would be very rich indeed, wouldn't he?

But that isn't the same for people like us, is it? For people who aren't as fortunate as us, it's very hard indeed.

If you are a teacher, say, or you work in a shop, and you lose 99% of your wealth, or your job, I imagine you would find it difficult to pay your mortgage, or your children's school fees, or whatever, and you would find it difficult to survive.

Wouldn't you, trumptman?

And, indeed, that is exactly what has happened. The poor, and the middle class, have been hit hardest.

Anyone who denies this is a liar and a selfish prick with a very sad, little heart.

You are not going to deny this, are you trumptman?
post #20 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

In this case, the rising tide of the rich has helped fuck all. So can we spell ideological failure? Yes, we can.

Let me ask you: What policies have been put in place since 2008 to benefit only the rich? You act as if policy has been directed towards helping them...as if it was "trickle down" in the purest sense. In reality the opposite is true. We've had trickle-up policies, where the poor and lower classes get help, the middle class gets little, and the rich get none. We've coupled that with massive deficit spending, regulation and government involvement in the private sector. How has that worked out for you?

Your comment on ideological failure is just so ironic. Obama has implemented his ideology over the past 3 years. For the first two years, he had a Democratic House and Senate. The result? Complete failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

SDW and trumpy don't get it but it's this kind of example that will help Obama make his case in the next election.

What case would that be? He can't run on his record. He has to make the case about his opponent. That's his only chance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You don't like the way the GOP handled it. But you started a thread blaming the Democrats. Typical.

They didn't handle it in shameless fashion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

You disgust me with your GOP Party always postponing and blaming others for their screw ups.The GOP full year will eventually intervene and eliminate most entitlement programs knowing their clandestine ways.

You're an absolute moron.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I understand you find this point difficult, trumptman, but luckily I am here to explain it you in very simple terms.

Warren Buffet is worth 39 billion dollars, according to my ten second google.

If he loses 38 of his 39 billion, he is still very rich.

Because that nice Mr Buffet still has a billion.

In fact, he could lose 99% of his worth, and he would be very rich indeed, wouldn't he?

But that isn't the same for people like us, is it? For people who aren't as fortunate as us, it's very hard indeed.

If you are a teacher, say, or you work in a shop, and you lose 99% of your wealth, or your job, I imagine you would find it difficult to pay your mortgage, or your children's school fees, or whatever, and you would find it difficult to survive.

Wouldn't you, trumptman?

And, indeed, that is exactly what has happened. The poor, and the middle class, have been hit hardest.

Anyone who denies this is a liar and a selfish prick with a very sad, little heart.

You are not going to deny this, are you trumptman?

Of course they have been hit hardest. That doesn't have anything to do with HOW TO FIX THE ECONOMY. We've already demonstrated how not to do so, yet you guys argue for the same "solutions." You actually want MORE pseudo-Keynesian stimulus. You want MORE regulation. You want MORE spending. You want MORE taxes. Unbelievable.

The answer is simple.

1) Real, dramatic tax reform--A simpler, flatter system where nearly everyone pays something.

2) Balance the budget. Period.

3) Regulatory reform--Institute pro-growth,pro-job policies while still maintaining protections or the environment, safety, etc.


Only an idiot would deny those are the answers. You're not an idiot, are you?
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post #21 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

1) Real, dramatic tax reform--A simpler, flatter system where nearly everyone pays something.

Do you even understand what that means? It means TAX THE POOR, MORE! If you "broaden the base," those who are poorest and currently don't pay income taxes (although they pay plenty of other regressive taxes like sales tax, so it really is pretty fucking disingenuous to complain that they don't pay any taxes at all) are the ones who are doing the broadening. The poorest feel the added pain while the rich get tax breaks. Yeah, that sure seems fair.

If you deny that, you are not only a brainless scumbag but also a heartless piece of shit. See, it's not a personal attack when you put the word "if" in front of it. You know, like you did with Mumbo.

 

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-Sagan
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post #22 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

If you deny that, you are not only a brainless scumbag but also a heartless piece of shit. See, it's not a personal attack when you put the word "if" in front of it. You know, like you did with Mumbo.

(To be fair, I did it with trumptman first.)

(Well, not 'it'. I didn't 'do it' with trumptman.)

Anyway. You're correct. A 'flatter tax' is deeply unfair.

Everyone hates taxes. I do. I hate paying my taxes because I'd rather spend the money on Comme des Garcons suits and computers and holidays and so on.

The thing is, I like literacy, people taking my garbage away, the police, and an ambulance to pick me up the next time I get hit on my bicycle more than I hate paying taxes.

I am not a fucking selfish, short-sighted twat in that regard.
post #23 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I understand you find this point difficult, trumptman, but luckily I am here to explain it you in very simple terms.

You find it hard for people to point out that no one is a trillionaire and that all your ranting and hyperbole are nonsense?

Quote:
Warren Buffet is worth 39 billion dollars, according to my ten second google.

If he loses 38 of his 39 billion, he is still very rich.

How many of the very nice people he employs now would still have their jobs if he lost 38 out if his 39 billion? My nice ten second Google search turned up that his company, from which he derives that wealth employs 260,519 people. How many still have jobs after a loss like what you describe?

Quote:
Because that nice Mr Buffet still has a billion.

Yes and again, what would the quarter million people he employs have?

Quote:
In fact, he could lose 99% of his worth, and he would be very rich indeed, wouldn't he?

I doubt it. See the idiots who look only at the final number will now come back and declare that since he has a billion dollars and another quarter million people are out of work, that he is still so fortunate and this should give most of it to help the quarter million people he formerly employed.

Quote:
But that isn't the same for people like us, is it? For people who aren't as fortunate as us, it's very hard indeed.

Speak for yourself. My first job was as a dishwasher. I've changed bed pans, delivered pizza, parked cars and done pretty much anything else necessary to get by when climbing those first rungs of the ladder.

Quote:
If you are a teacher, say, or you work in a shop, and you lose 99% of your wealth, or your job, I imagine you would find it difficult to pay your mortgage, or your children's school fees, or whatever, and you would find it difficult to survive.

For such a thing to happen would require an incredibly catastrophic event that would exhaust all of the salaries from two jobs (while we live within one salary), all of our savings and perhaps even things like life insurance presuming someone took ill and died.

Quote:
Wouldn't you, trumptman?

Unless a law were passed making my employment impossible, I'd find a way because I always have and I always will. I've never been unemployed nor had long periods of unemployment even through multiple recessions and even when I was just a student getting my degree. I show up, work hard, don't bring or cause any drama and in short, I bring a good return. Employers have always tried to retain me, offer me more hours, responsibility and salary.

This is still very true not just of myself but the economy in general. Almost everyone I know is skilled and employed and most of my friends and family members are working 40-60 hrs a week while getting paid very well. Those who are not have clear causes for employment trouble and take their train wreck issues from short term job to short term job.

Quote:
And, indeed, that is exactly what has happened. The poor, and the middle class, have been hit hardest.

Most people who were not overextended have done just fine. In fact I would go further and say most people I know who want to work, even regardless of legal or illegal status find and keep work. Much like in Europe, it is the dependent class, who wants a check and also wants a bunch of immigrants to do the work they won't do, who have problems.

Quote:
Anyone who denies this is a liar and a selfish prick with a very sad, little heart.

Anyone who would believe someone who deals in hyperbole instead of facts and who wants to toss out emotional appeals and name calling probably had many more issues and concerns than you and your names.

Quote:
You are not going to deny this, are you trumptman?

Deny that you make up nonsense, have no concept of the numbers behind your claims and that you are trolling, why I'd never deny that.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #24 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Are there rich people who have made losses? Sure. But most of them have come out way, way ahead. If you deny that, then you, sir, are the liar.

Proof? Data?
post #25 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Do you even understand what that means? It means TAX THE POOR, MORE! If you "broaden the base," those who are poorest and currently don't pay income taxes (although they pay plenty of other regressive taxes like sales tax, so it really is pretty fucking disingenuous to complain that they don't pay any taxes at all) are the ones who are doing the broadening. The poorest feel the added pain while the rich get tax breaks. Yeah, that sure seems fair.

If you deny that, you are not only a brainless scumbag but also a heartless piece of shit. See, it's not a personal attack when you put the word "if" in front of it. You know, like you did with Mumbo.

Somehow I missed the part where I complained primarily about the poor. The rich are a part of the problem, too. Everyone (or nearly everyone) needs to contribute something. Do you really disagree with this?
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post #26 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Do you even understand what that means? It means TAX THE POOR, MORE! If you "broaden the base," those who are poorest and currently don't pay income taxes (although they pay plenty of other regressive taxes like sales tax, so it really is pretty fucking disingenuous to complain that they don't pay any taxes at all) are the ones who are doing the broadening. The poorest feel the added pain while the rich get tax breaks. Yeah, that sure seems fair.

If you deny that, you are not only a brainless scumbag but also a heartless piece of shit. See, it's not a personal attack when you put the word "if" in front of it. You know, like you did with Mumbo.

Are we not to believe that they don't get a return on the communal good that far outweighs what they put in or "invested" in government programs? Do they not enjoy roads, police protection, need fire fighters, benefit from education, etc. in a manner that greatly exceeds the dollars they have taken from them?

Is not the government in effect merely taking the money and investing it for them and returning that investment via infrastructure and services in a manner far greater than they could get on their own?

You can't say government doesn't really work for the poor but have the rich pay for it. Either the return is real and thus everyone should contribute or it is fake in which case why have anyone contribute.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #27 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Are we not to believe that they don't get a return on the communal good that far outweighs what they put in or "invested" in government programs? Do they not enjoy roads, police protection, need fire fighters, benefit from education, etc. in a manner that greatly exceeds the dollars they have taken from them?

Are we as Americans not proud to help provide that for them? Are we to believe that they don't deserve it?

Quote:
Is not the government in effect merely taking the money and investing it for them and returning that investment via infrastructure and services in a manner far greater than they could get on their own?

Yes. And that is precisely the right thing for the government to be doing.
Quote:
You can't say government doesn't really work for the poor but have the rich pay for it. Either the return is real and thus everyone should contribute or it is fake in which case why have anyone contribute.

The return is real, and although it benefits the poor, as it should, it also benefits the rich to a huge extent, and more so as history progresses. This is what it should not be doing.
post #28 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Are we as Americans not proud to help provide that for them? Are we to believe that they don't deserve it?

Numbers and financial returns don't really have PRIDE as a variable.

Quote:
Yes. And that is precisely the right thing for the government to be doing.

In a social contract, everyone should be on the tax rolls. I've criticized Bush for this and I'll criticize Obama if he let's the Bush tax cuts expire and only raises taxes on the rich. It's much easier to make a persuasive case that we are all in this together and that we should all contribute for the common good.
Quote:
The return is real, and although it benefits the poor, as it should, it also benefits the rich to a huge extent, and more so as history progresses. This is what it should not be doing.

Clearly it benefits the everyone when taxes are spent on items as they should be. However if infrastructure money becomes food stamp money and the roads crumble, then there is no return and thus during the subsequent rounds a desire to avoid paying. Government must be accountable and must be a moral agent in executing the social contract. When folks like yourself do not enforce this accountability and just keep repeating the platitudes, then you hurt your own case.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #29 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

In a social contract, everyone should be on the tax rolls. I've criticized Bush for this and I'll criticize Obama if he let's the Bush tax cuts expire and only raises taxes on the rich. It's much easier to make a persuasive case that we are all in this together and that we should all contribute for the common good.

We've gone from "no taxation without representation" to "representation without taxation".
post #30 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

We've gone from "no taxation without representation" to "representation without taxation".

Right. All those scumbag lowlife poor people. How dare they not have enough money to pay into the system. Nevermind payroll taxes, sales taxes, gasoline taxes, and property taxes (directly or indirectly through renting). Those fuckers have no skin in the game. Nevermind that their well-being directly depends upon a successful America. Nevermind they can't just live in a compound surrounded by private security forces, divorced from the plight of everyone else. They clearly have no stake in America. If they can't find a job, it's because they are lazy. If they can't afford medical care, it's because they spend frivolously. If they die on the streets, well, they got what they deserved. Clearly, they just didn't have enough of an incentive to work hard and continue making America the unequivocally, unquestionably best country on the planet. Only if we raise their taxes will they learn their lesson that their freedom to file medical bankruptcy and work for a pension that gets decimated by fraudulent financial actions isn't just handed to them willy-nilly. They need to pay for that fucking freedom.

When I'm hungry, I don't go to the pantry where all the food is. I scour the corners of my kitchen for crumbs and yell at them with righteous indignation when I can't find enough to eat there.

When I'm thirsty, I don't turn on the faucet to fill a glass of water. I wring out the dishtowel and yell at it with moral superiority when I barely get a drop.

When I want to read at night, I don't turn on the reading lamp to illuminate my kindle. I strain to see by the faint glow of the battery indicator on my laser mouse and spit on it with utter condescension when it fails me in my endeavor.

I am a new breed of conservative. I deny science. I ignore facts. I have no empathy. I am a sociopath. Greed is all I know.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #31 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Right. All those scumbag lowlife poor people. How dare they not have enough money to pay into the system. Nevermind payroll taxes, sales taxes, gasoline taxes, and property taxes (directly or indirectly through renting).

Payroll taxes - 47 percent of people pay none at the federal level
Sales tax - We do not have a national sales tax and when people like myself suggest any sort of tax of this nature (along with any other flat tax) you denounce it.
Gasoline tax - This actually exists.
Property tax - This does not exist at the federal level.

Most of these taxes are state taxes. This payroll tax battle, the subject of the thread, is about federal taxes.

Why do you conflate the two?

The rest of your rant isn't worth the time.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #32 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Payroll taxes - 47 percent of people pay none at the federal level
Sales tax - We do not have a national sales tax and when people like myself suggest any sort of tax of this nature (along with any other flat tax) you denounce it.
Gasoline tax - This actually exists.
Property tax - This does not exist at the federal level.

Most of these taxes are state taxes. This payroll tax battle, the subject of the thread, is about federal taxes.

Why do you conflate the two?

The rest of your rant isn't worth the time.

You're complaining that some of those taxes we mention are at state level and not national level? But at the same time you use roads (98.5% State or locally funded) to make your fucking argument? Seriously?
post #33 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You're complaining that some of those taxes we mention are at state level and not national level? But at the same time you use roads (98.5% State or locally funded) to make your fucking argument? Seriously?

I'd love to see the source for your number. However that said the federal government does indeed fund infrastructure. It doesn't do so exclusively but as an example the interstate highway system isn't a figment of anyone's imagination.

Feel free to address the stimulus not being "shovel-ready" and largely being used to pay for government jobs anytime you want as well.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #34 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

It looks like Obama has found a way to conjure up another "emergency" that has to be dealt with "right now." By dealing with it, I mean that he gets to paint the GOP as poor and middle class-hating, debt- exploding monsters.

White House sets up site for "average workers" to share what $40 per paycheck means to them.

Coupled that with the Democratic leadership comments from yesterday:

Hoyer: "You're walking out, just like so many Republicans have walked out on the middle class."

These tactics are despicable. The reality is that both sides want to extend the cut. However, the GOP wishes to do it for a full year and wants to attach the Keystone pipeline to it. Obama would rather beat them over the head with "blocking a tax cut for working families" in an election year than actually enact a policy that creates thousands of jobs.

The whole thing disgusts me.

If you are so disgusted with the states move to Cuba and see what the government is like there.You have freedom be happy with it.
post #35 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Right. All those scumbag lowlife poor people. How dare they not have enough money to pay into the system. Nevermind payroll taxes, sales taxes, gasoline taxes, and property taxes (directly or indirectly through renting). Those fuckers have no skin in the game. Nevermind that their well-being directly depends upon a successful America. Nevermind they can't just live in a compound surrounded by private security forces, divorced from the plight of everyone else. They clearly have no stake in America. If they can't find a job, it's because they are lazy. If they can't afford medical care, it's because they spend frivolously. If they die on the streets, well, they got what they deserved. Clearly, they just didn't have enough of an incentive to work hard and continue making America the unequivocally, unquestionably best country on the planet. Only if we raise their taxes will they learn their lesson that their freedom to file medical bankruptcy and work for a pension that gets decimated by fraudulent financial actions isn't just handed to them willy-nilly. They need to pay for that fucking freedom.

When I'm hungry, I don't go to the pantry where all the food is. I scour the corners of my kitchen for crumbs and yell at them with righteous indignation when I can't find enough to eat there.

When I'm thirsty, I don't turn on the faucet to fill a glass of water. I wring out the dishtowel and yell at it with moral superiority when I barely get a drop.

When I want to read at night, I don't turn on the reading lamp to illuminate my kindle. I strain to see by the faint glow of the battery indicator on my laser mouse and spit on it with utter condescension when it fails me in my endeavor.

I am a new breed of conservative. I deny science. I ignore facts. I have no empathy. I am a sociopath. Greed is all I know.


BR, all your personal vitriol aside, you have a point. The poor are affect by the aforementioned taxes more than the rich are. That said, you're setting up a false dichotomy here re: rich and poor. You're only comparing people that have "serious money" (countryside estates, private jets, limos, etc) with the working poor and very poor.

But the problem doesn't lie with those groups. It lies with two groups: The "well off" or "upper middle class," whom are paying out the nose. This often includes small businesses and people whose consumption truly creates jobs...and the lower middle class, who often pay nothing into the system but still receive direct benefits in many cases. This creates a situation where 47% of people pay nothing, and where only half of society is actually contributing.

What I'm saying (and trump, apparently) is that everyone or nearly everyone should contribute at the federal level. It doesn't have to be a flat tax exactly, but there are alternatives. A hybrid flat-progressive system might work, for example. The basic principle is that no one should pay little to nothing unless he/she is truly "very poor" (the poverty line might be a good guide).
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #36 of 58
Thread Starter 
On the tax subject, here is an excellent article describing Harry Reid's pathetic "millionaire job creators are like unicorns" comment:
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #37 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

You find it hard for people to point out that no one is a trillionaire and that all your ranting and hyperbole are nonsense?



How many of the very nice people he employs now would still have their jobs if he lost 38 out if his 39 billion? My nice ten second Google search turned up that his company, from which he derives that wealth employs 260,519 people. How many still have jobs after a loss like what you describe?



Yes and again, what would the quarter million people he employs have?



I doubt it. See the idiots who look only at the final number will now come back and declare that since he has a billion dollars and another quarter million people are out of work, that he is still so fortunate and this should give most of it to help the quarter million people he formerly employed.



Speak for yourself. My first job was as a dishwasher. I've changed bed pans, delivered pizza, parked cars and done pretty much anything else necessary to get by when climbing those first rungs of the ladder.



For such a thing to happen would require an incredibly catastrophic event that would exhaust all of the salaries from two jobs (while we live within one salary), all of our savings and perhaps even things like life insurance presuming someone took ill and died.



Unless a law were passed making my employment impossible, I'd find a way because I always have and I always will. I've never been unemployed nor had long periods of unemployment even through multiple recessions and even when I was just a student getting my degree. I show up, work hard, don't bring or cause any drama and in short, I bring a good return. Employers have always tried to retain me, offer me more hours, responsibility and salary.

This is still very true not just of myself but the economy in general. Almost everyone I know is skilled and employed and most of my friends and family members are working 40-60 hrs a week while getting paid very well. Those who are not have clear causes for employment trouble and take their train wreck issues from short term job to short term job.

Most people who were not overextended have done just fine. In fact I would go further and say most people I know who want to work, even regardless of legal or illegal status find and keep work. Much like in Europe, it is the dependent class, who wants a check and also wants a bunch of immigrants to do the work they won't do, who have problems.

Anyone who would believe someone who deals in hyperbole instead of facts and who wants to toss out emotional appeals and name calling probably had many more issues and concerns than you and your names.

Deny that you make up nonsense, have no concept of the numbers behind your claims and that you are trolling, why I'd never deny that.

Dear all lurkers

As you can see, this man doesn't believe that the middle class and the poor have been hit hardest by the current downturn.

As you can see, this man doesn't believe that the richest have escaped the lightest.

As you can see, this man thinks that job security isn't a worry in America today.

If you're still deciding whom to vote for, try and find out who this person's supporting.

Come back here and check in the next few months.

Ask yourself if you want to be on board with someone so divorced from the current realities of the economy and job market. Remember: he thinks that if you're a billionaire it's just as hard as if you work as a "dishwasher."

Remember that every time you read him defending his candidate.
post #38 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Dear all lurkers

As you can see, this man doesn't believe that the middle class and the poor have been hit hardest by the current downturn.

As you can see, this man doesn't believe that the richest have escaped the lightest.

As you can see, this man thinks that job security isn't a worry in America today.

If you're still deciding whom to vote for, try and find out who this person's supporting.

Come back here and check in the next few months.

Ask yourself if you want to be on board with someone so divorced from the current realities of the economy and job market. Remember: he thinks that if you're a billionaire it's just as hard as if you work as a "dishwasher."

Remember that every time you read him defending his candidate.

Exactly! He supports the Greedy Old Party and it's impossible to explain anything to him that doesn't match his world view. He's an example of why I don't vote for the extreme right. The only reality they deal with is the one that matches their philosophy. Real or not.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #39 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Dear all lurkers—

As you can see, this man doesn't believe that the middle class and the poor have been hit hardest by the current downturn.

As you can see, this man doesn't believe that the richest have escaped the lightest.

He's shown that both are false, depending on how it's looked at it. And you've shown your inability to refrain ad hominem arguments.

Quote:

As you can see, this man thinks that job security isn't a worry in America today.

Not at all what he said, actually.

Quote:

If you're still deciding whom to vote for, try and find out who this person's supporting.

Come back here and check in the next few months.

Ask yourself if you want to be on board with someone so divorced from the current realities of the economy and job market. Remember: he thinks that if you're a billionaire it's just as hard as if you work as a "dishwasher."

He didn't claim that at all. He said the rich lost money too. He said that people he knows aren't hurting as long as they didn't over-extend themselves.

Quote:

Remember that every time you read him defending his candidate.

And I'll remember the trillions of new spending and failed policies of that person's opponent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Exactly! He supports the Greedy Old Party and it's impossible to explain anything to him that doesn't match his world view.

Yes, that's a balanced view you have there, complete with name calling. And you're really one to talk about someone's worldview. You'd support a Democrat if Abraham Lincoln was running. You supported Obama from Day 1--even over the far more experienced and capable Hillary Clinton. Your blind partisanship and refusal to deal with facts has been well-documented over the past 10 years here.

Quote:

He's an example of why I don't vote for the extreme right. The only reality they deal with is the one that matches their philosophy. Real or not.

You don't vote for "extreme right" because there is usually no extreme right candidate on the national ballot. McCain was a moderate. Romney is more conservative, but not on everything. He's also a former New England governor. Bush was very liberal compared to much of his party, particularly on spending and immigration. Bush 41 was a moderate. Reagan was about as close to "right" as you can get, and that was 30 years ago.

The fact is you vote in a blindly partisan, emotionally-driven manner. You liked Clinton because the economy was strong in late 90s, yet you ignored his other massive failings and the fact he did little to actually create the economic conditions that existed. You despised Bush at the outset because he was a Republican. You despised him more after Iraq, and tried to argue the economy was "not as good as it should have been." When the financial collapse happened, you jumped on the "Bush wrecked the economy" bandwagon despite little evidence to suggest that's what happened. You backed Obama despite his obviously inferior credentials, fully embracing the cult of personality and hype. And now you'll back Obama again despite a record of abysmal failure in nearly every area of his job and a much better GOP candidate. You're a partisan hack, and always have been.
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post #40 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

He's shown that both are false, depending on how it's looked at it. And you've shown your inability to refrain ad hominem arguments.



Not at all what he said, actually.



He didn't claim that at all. He said the rich lost money too. He said that people he knows aren't hurting as long as they didn't over-extend themselves.



And I'll remember the trillions of new spending and failed policies of that person's opponent.




Yes, that's a balanced view you have there, complete with name calling. And you're really one to talk about someone's worldview. You'd support a Democrat if Abraham Lincoln was running. You supported Obama from Day 1--even over the far more experienced and capable Hillary Clinton. Your blind partisanship and refusal to deal with facts has been well-documented over the past 10 years here.



You don't vote for "extreme right" because there is usually no extreme right candidate on the national ballot. McCain was a moderate. Romney is more conservative, but not on everything. He's also a former New England governor. Bush was very liberal compared to much of his party, particularly on spending and immigration. Bush 41 was a moderate. Reagan was about as close to "right" as you can get, and that was 30 years ago.

The fact is you vote in a blindly partisan, emotionally-driven manner. You liked Clinton because the economy was strong in late 90s, yet you ignored his other massive failings and the fact he did little to actually create the economic conditions that existed. You despised Bush at the outset because he was a Republican. You despised him more after Iraq, and tried to argue the economy was "not as good as it should have been." When the financial collapse happened, you jumped on the "Bush wrecked the economy" bandwagon despite little evidence to suggest that's what happened. You backed Obama despite his obviously inferior credentials, fully embracing the cult of personality and hype. And now you'll back Obama again despite a record of abysmal failure in nearly every area of his job and a much better GOP candidate. You're a partisan hack, and always have been.

Quote:
Yes, that's a balanced view you have there, complete with name calling. And you're really one to talk about someone's worldview. You'd support a Democrat if Abraham Lincoln was running. You supported Obama from Day 1--even over the far more experienced and capable Hillary Clinton. Your blind partisanship and refusal to deal with facts has been well-documented over the past 10 years here.

The very fact that I'm still registered independent debunks that statement. I'll tell you what's well documented here. Your blind refusal to see reality even when cold hard facts are supplied. Iraq was a prime example.

Quote:
You liked Clinton because the economy was strong in late 90s

Yes things were better under Clinton than any recent Republican. And that's a fact. And it wasn't because of the republicans. The next GOP bumbler blew through the surplus he left behind in 6 months.

Would you like me to show you where you used name calling recently? It was of a more personal nature with the subject of your attack as I recall.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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