Italy fines Apple $1.2M for 'unfair commercial practices' - Page 2

Italy is in the shitter, economically speaking, like much of Europe.

The solution to the law is for Apple to raise their prices in all of the countries affected by this extended warranty. Make EU people pay even more for their Apple devices. Apple does not need cheap Europeans buying their stuff. They should pay the extra costs associated with their law, just like they have to pay out of the ass in extra taxes, VAT and all other sorts of EU nonsense.

The price of Apple devices should rise by at least 5% in all EU countries in order to pay for the costs of getting an extended warranty. Fair is fair and everybody should pay their fair share for their services and goods received. Those Euroheads who don't like it can always buy Android or some other crap.

Can I get a two-year warranty from the Italian government? Or will it be out of business by then?

I disagree, the obnoxious response on his part was to prove a point to EyeNsteinNo. What does this have anything to do with absolute right or wrongs? What this has to do with is EyeNsteinNo arrogance. Very irritating arrogance. Do you really honestly think EyeNsteinNo point was that Italy/EU was making an onerous demand of Apple?

They pay the fine. It's not really a big thing for them since they make that much money in one day just in the EU. Probably more than that money even.

Since the issue seems to be that the staff in the stores in Italy don't seem to understand the local laws and how they relate to Apple Care they will have the legal department assist in writing up a clear explanation which they will send out to all the areas in the EU and educate the staff. Then the staff can correctly explain to customers how the whole thing works and the issue is solved

It's amazing how all your posts are always full of ignorant hatred all the time!

It's called business 101 buddy.

Nothing is free in this world and if there is a company making a product that is offered in different regions and if that product comes with an extended warranty in region B, while region A only has a normal warranty, then the cost of the extra service provided will be passed along to the consumers in region B one way or the other.

in your dreams

if apple shut down tomorrow there'd be some moaning, whining and gnashing of teeth, especially from its suppliers in the far east, and the world would carry on as if nothing had happened

apple is an insignificant speck in comparison to any developed economy, even one tanking as badly as italy

If a 2 year warranty is common practice, why is Apple being fined for not publishing it? What consumer wouldn't know how long an item was covered.

Seems like a questionably legal attempt to squeeze some "protection money" from a store owner. Just like the 'good old days.' I guess some old habits never change.

I am not well-versed in international business law, but does anyone think that Apple is "legally" liable for payment of this fine? If so, do you think they'll just cough up the money and move on? Seriously?

If Apple was supposed to give a 2 year warranty and wasn't honoring that, then yeah, they're liable.


Of course they will. They have to.

Just as a reminder to anyone saying that the EU is in a big shit. It's true, but it's the US with their dramatic lack of regulation that put us into this, and the only reason the US are not in a crisis is because you increased your debt of more than one trillion dollars. If we had done the same thing there wouldn't be any problem. To this day, the US have almost 3 times the debt of the EU in percentage of income (0,4 years for EU, 1,1 years for US). So it's easy to criticize when your country is responsible for this crisis and just took money out of nowhere. I would worry more about your future, really.

While I agree on the business part (not the tone), you are wrong in assuming that this is not already the case. Apple charges Europeans (and Australians and Britons and and and) much more than the exchange rate plus common exchange rate variance risk since, well, forever. Apple does price these local factors in. If they fail to train their staff appropriately, then they will have to (and certainly will) live with fines like this.

If an Apple Store staff member says: "Sorry, you purchased this product 13 months ago, and you will now have to prove that the defect was already present on the day you bought it", Apple is smelling like a rose and the EU is happy. If he/she says "Sorry, only customers who have purchased Apple Care are eligible for service after 12 months", they are fined.

Interestingly, the second statement is consumer-friendly, as it shows the customer a valid way to get an extended warranty, while the EU-mandated implied warranty is (in this case) just a smoke screen. The 24 months implied warranty was mainly established to stop resellers from importing cheap (and sometimes dangerous) crap. The fact that grave design/manufacturing defects have to be resolved for 24 months free of charge have effectively stopped most imports of unsafe and poorly designed articles. This is why the law is (in some cases) good. It even protects serious companies (like Apple), as they do not have to compete with certain cheap imports.

Apple has obviously failed here to educate its staff. If intentionally, negligently or accidentally... I can't say. But the fine is certainly assuming the latter. So, no reason to complain.

Agreed, if they're truly guilty; however, they have 60 days to appeal according to http://www.pcworld.com/businesscente..._in_italy.html.

I hope that they do.

For example, Applecare for a $500 iPad is $79 in the US. That's about 16% of the entire cost of the product. If somebody in another region is essentially getting Applecare for free, then I would sure hope that they're paying for it in added initial costs.

Not trying to get into a fight, but I personally subscribe to the notion that there's far too much regulation in the world. Each country's government is trying to do too much. But to correct you, the US is very much in crisis. There's a $15 tillion dollar budget liability, and that's not even countying the $35-50 trillion dollars in promises to Medicare and Social Security. I am very worried about our future.

Congratulations, dreyfus2, for your excellent , well argumented and informative posts. Your example demonstrates that Apple stores vendors should have training on legal matters, which is far from being obvious, given the complexity of all possible situations....

On the other hand, I feel this judgment is unfair to Apple, because in the two cases I had a problem with an Apple device, I had no problem to get it fixed (in one case , by replacement with a brand new product). I even had a case where I had subscribed a warranty from the seller (FNAC, which was not directly Apple). It turned out that activating that warranty was problematic for me (I would have lost all data on my machine). Apple accepted to replace the motherboard of my machine (a MacBook) at no cost (at that time I had no AppleCare protection, but this was not even necessary). From this day on, I subscribe to Apple care, and nothing else ...

Simple. They'll pay the fine, re-educate their sales people, train their managers, and change a few words in their marketing materials.

Basically, it comes down to how they're promoting their products - not the product itself. It will be very easy to fix.


So it's a simple misunderstanding that Apple can fix by changing their marketing materials and re-training their sales people and managers. Not that big of a deal.

Exactly, it's no big deal, Apple made a mistake and is going to pay the fine. That's all.

An attractive argument. Wonder if it'll work with a traffic cop the next time you get pulled over for speeding!

I'd like to clarify a few things (I'm Italian).

First of all, this is an European directive, incorporated in the Italian law.
It states that all goods bought by consumers (so, not companies) must have a warranty of 2 years offered by the *seller* (please note: NOT the producer).
Apple, by itself, offers an additional 1-year warranty as the producer.

As long as you buy Apple products from a 3rd party reseller (an Apple Premium Reseller, for example), you get the 1-year warranty from Apple AND the 2-year warranty from the seller (of course, Apple's warranty is better, as they replace your product in quick times).

The problem, however, arises when you buy DIRECTLY from Apple, via the Apple Store Online or in a Apple Store (one of the 9 we have in Italy).
In this case, the seller coincides with the producer, so Apple should offer the 2-year warranty.
In the web site, or in a Apple Store, however, it's nowhere written that the warranty lasts 2 years in this case.
That's the origin of the fine!

Last october, also, the civil court of Vicenza (a city in Northern Italy) stated clearly that.
A student bought a MacBook Pro from Apple, and it broke after 1 year and half. Apple refused to offer free repair, and the court condemned them.

PS: To those saying "Apple Care is not necessary anymore, then"... Well, it's necessary to get the second year of warranty from Apple when you buy from a 3rd party seller. So the warranty is from Apple and not another company...

PS2: Apologize for mistakes. Speaking about laws in another language is not that easy

PS3: By the way... 900,000 € are pennies for Apple!

Let the Italy bashing begin.

No, Apple's been selling in Italy online for many years, and in retail stores for 5 years. I'm sure there were Italian lawyers involved in Apple setting up the real estate transactions, getting licenses and permits, etc. They had to know about the country's warranty law - it's a basic consumer law, not some hidden fine print. Apple is a consumer company.

It's not a technicality - Apple was telling consumers the free warranty was only for one year (and maybe not even repairing items under warranty after one year). They also tried to sell them extended warranties they didn't need because they should have already been covered for two years. What would your reaction be if Dell did this?

However it happened, somebody at Apple screwed up, whether maliciously or not.

Think it's country dependent actually. Personally, I'm not against a 2 year warranty, wonder if I can source my next Mac in Milan?

But the conclusion is that Apple did screw up here, they did break Italian law, and I'm 100% sure that they'll pay the fine and alter their terms. At the end of the day businesses can make mistakes.

and like the US who will shortly be subsidiary of China Inc.

If Apple break the law they should be punished the same as any other company.

No, it applies to the entire European Union. Member countries can have stricter requirements, but the minimum period is 2 years in the EU. See post #26

No. Apple can make 5% less profit and treat their costumers better. But I guess they don't teach costumer relations in business 101. Or you can post 5% less comments.

Actually, we are already paying that 5% more....

Apple is applying a 1:1 exchange ratio or almost.
So, the basic iPhone 4S, unlocked, costs 659 euros, while it is 649 dollars in the USA.
Prices in Italy already include VAT (currently at 21%), so the net price is 545 euros, which are 712 US$ at the moment (also, consider the euro plunged in the last weeks).
So, we are paying about 70$ more for the same thing.

Ok, selling in Europe could be more expensive also for other reasons: Apple needs to create subsidiaries, needs insurances to protect from sudden changes in exchange ratios, etc...

Actually, Italian economy is not negative on all fronts. During the latest couple years export has been fine - finer than Germany during the latest few months (+8.4%). But an incredibly high public debt (>120%, and growing), plus the highest taxation figures in the world (~54%, and growing) has diminished internal trade and import. Apple products have been victims of the recent trend, but cell phones are still one of the best selling goods in the Country. Armageddon will find us chatting, and we will probably continue after the first few impacts.

Paolo

This makes me remember that Norway, who is not a member of the EU but harmonizes most of their laws with the EU equivalents, warrants purchases for 3 years.

Paolo

Apple's warranty, like that of any manufacturer, is valid across the 27 Member States of the European Union. You can go to any Apple Service in any EU country to have your product repaired.

So maybe we should require that all Italian brand and /or made in Italy products come with a 2 year warranty.

Or teach lightstriker how to spell...

thanks for the feedback.

That's not what the news reports says. Where did you get your "facts"?

The info on the site IS clear enough.
The problem is that Italian Law "Codice del Consumo" D.L. 206 - 6 September 2005, says the warranty is two years.
The law is part of the European Consumer Law.

In the site is said "Tutti i Mac e monitor Apple includono una garanzia limitata di un anno" = "All Mac and Apple Monitor has a warranty limited to one year", the statement is against the law.



The government is made by citizens.
The government has to protect its citizens. Also when the citizens are consumers.



Since it is an European law, you have no problem in the whole Europe.
Right now you can buy a Mac in a Country and have it repaired in a different one.

Since price differential is crazy, it is worth to buy a Mac in a different country. The only problem for the MacBook is the keyboard.


Titan10

Ok, I didn't know Apple had an official argument.
I was wondering about this myself and came to a similar argument.
But the problem is Apple does sell directly to consumers (even in Holland without official Apple stores) via the online Apple store.
Online stores have the same rules regarding warranties and must comply to them according to European law.
So its not just Holland or Italy, but all European countries and this is in effect for 10 years or more.

It was just a matter of time before Apple had to comply to this. It is strange it took so long.
Apple does comply to other rules like showing prices of products with taxes (in Holland consumer advertising must include the taxes) so I don't think this is an oversight.

J.

Forgive me for my English, but I want to tell you that the article is misleading the Italian law.

First of all, Italian warranty law follows the European Act, and while it's true that the product must be covered for 2-years guarantee, there's a confusion about "what kind of guarantee is applied for the 2-years term".

European (and Italian) law specifies two different kind of guarantee: legal guarantee and conventional guarantee.

The first one guarantees that a product will have free service or replacement only if the product is not conform according of what advertised (e.g.: slower CPU, less RAM, smaller hard disk and so on), and the guarantee is limited to 2-years.

The second one warranty that a product will have free service only for broken or fail functionality from a manufacturing fault, and the term is regulated for "one year minimum".

The Italian AGCOM fees Apple not because Apple did not provided the warranty according to local law, but because Apple did not inform their clients about their rights and the existence of a 2-year guarantee (even if it's the "legal" one) pushing them to buy the AppleCare protection plan, overlapping the second-year of paid AppleCare with the free second-year of guarantee provided by the law.

You can read the sentence (via Google Translate): http://bit.ly/t69vHP

And here, you can read an explanation about this law (via Google Translate): http://bit.ly/tdSkT3

Again, sorry for my bad English but I hope you could understand what I wrote

With high quality Apple could offer a 3 year warranty as standard anyway.
They probably already make 600%+ more profit per item than anyone else.

(First post in this forum: hello, world! I'm a spaniard, so please forgive my english)

It's not Applecare for free. I mean, when you buy an Applecare warranty extension, you don't have to prove that the product was defective, do you?

Remember: the EU law says that after the first six months, the customer has to provide proof that the product was defective when manufactured. This is, if the law was followed strictly, then you would only enjoy a "true" warranty of six months, and then, you would have to work and prove that Apple (in this case) sold you a defective product.

In practice, all makers (at least in Spain, where I live) give customers one year of good/inconditional warranty, and after this year, they conveniently forget about the second year, giving you a full extra-warranty only if you pay for it. If you don't pay, then you'll probably have to sue them and prove in court or with the help of technical analysis that the product was defective when bought. You have the risk then, of losing, and keeping a defective product, after having wasted money in a lawyer, and you have to pay the trial expenses, or if you win, then Apple will have to pay for everything (trial expenses included). You could probably get a deal with Apple if you are sure you could win that trial, but that wouldn't be the most frequent case.

Directive 1999/44/EC, May 1999 from the European Parliament

1. The seller shall be held liable under Article 3 where the lack of conformity becomes apparent within two years as from delivery of the goods. If, under national legislation, the rights laid down in Article 3(2) are subject to a limitation period, that period shall not expire within a period of two years from the time of delivery.



What? Someone actually wrote this? An apple lobotomized bot generated text maybe?