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Argentina blocks iPhone sales in bid to strengthen economy - Page 2

post #41 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post

No, it's stupid. When you buy things, you support your economy, whether it be a cell contract, some local accessory shop with ugly cases at a pulga....whatever. I'd tell Argentina to go F themselves and tell them to F Messi as well.

It would seem to me that when/if Apple builds phones/iPads in Brazil, the ban will become moot as under MERCOSUR, Brazilian products can enter Argentina duty free. Under MERCOSUR, don't believe Argentina could block these imports from Brazil.

Population of Brazil about 5X that of Argentina.

Doubt the others are building smart phones in Argentina for a small market. Volume isn't there to support a factory.
post #42 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevetim View Post

I have banned all Apple products until they build a Genius Bar in my home and staff it.

I realize you're joking, but that's a good example of why this kind of forced-hand stuff doesn't work. Argentina just basically did the same thing. Apparently they haven't figured out that free markets bring prosperity, not heavy-handed controls. They just took over the newsprint paper business for pete's sake. Good luck.
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post #43 of 121
Rather than criticise Argentina, isn't it about time the US protected its own industries? Instead we have statements coming out that China is not a currency manipulator, which is the biggest load of BS I've heard in a long time. Ladies and gentlemen, that's your government at work, selling out US workers in favor of the Chinese and their unfair business practices, all so you can get low quality, shoddy goods at a cheap price.
post #44 of 121
Who cares! The Argentines come to America and shop till they drop. I live on Miami beach and there is an Apple store on a place called Lincoln road. I work in the hotel biz and I see them stock piling Mac book airs,Mac books, iPads and iPhones like they are going out of style.
post #45 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by simtub View Post

Next... Are they going to invade the Falklands again!

Again? Las Islas Malvinas were invaded by the brits, kicking all the argentinians out.. Inform yourself before making stupid comments.
post #46 of 121
Argentinia has an addressable smart phone market of around 4-6MM units per year. Let's assume that is $2.5B at retail without tarif, or approximately $500MM in tarif to be collected per year. Assembling the phones in China costs ~$60MM in incremental cost.

The simple question is if the avoided tarif offsets the cost of building a plant and operating it less efficiently than in China. I would expect the per-unit assembly cost to be about 5x (~$60/unit), and the capital cost of the plant to be about $400MM. That pretty much makes it a wash.

The alternative is to just do final assembly and packaging in-country.
post #47 of 121
There is a local iOS app developer community that will be negatively impacted (most of their revenue comes from abroad).

Meanwhile, Argentina picks up a few low-paying assembly jobs in a province almost nobody wants to live in.

It shows a total lack of understanding of how you add value to an economy.

Even more bizarre, it's inconsistent. You can get an iPad 2 (including the 3G model) at most large electronics retailers and all Apple resellers. Likewise iMacs, iPod Touches, and MacBook Pros are freely available (though costly). Then again, MacBook Airs are also banned!

I think whatever bureaucrat is calling the shots on this one is interpreting iPhones and MBAs to be luxury items, or something. It will work itself out, eventually. I don't see this being a long-term issue, especially if assembly starts in Brazil (which together with Argentina is in the Mercosur Trade pact).

But yeah, it's stupid, stupid, stupid.

Oh, and whoever called Argentina a hell hole is a clueless idiot who has never been there. It's a better place to live in than lots of places, even some in the US. And as stupid as this move is, at least the country hasn't poured billions of dollars rescuing fraudulent banks, like some other countries I've heard of...
post #48 of 121
Occupy Argentina.
post #49 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The decision by the Argentinian government claims that the selective consumer electronics ban is meant to slow rising inflation and correct the disparity between the pesos and U.S. dollar, according to website Manuals.ws.

Really smart. So to attack inflation, you make it impossible for people to buy a $500 iPhone so they have to buy it on the black market for $1,000.
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post #50 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by darrynlowe View Post

Argentina was just coming off the back of a complete failure of their economy and that was before the so called recession hit in 2008. I seriously do think that they have learned from their mistakes and so all the negative comments are somewhat uninformed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argenti...s_(19992002)

If people have to go into debt to get products like an iPhone or iPad or MacBook then they don't help the economy instead they add to the problem.

Spending does help the economy but it is a false economy if people go into debt or rack up credit card debt.

Forcing people to buy locally can only be a good thing as all the money from the people goes directly back into the economy propping it up.

America should learn a thing or two about this because their economy is in the crapper at the moment with no signs of coming out anytime too soon.

Don't mock someone simply because you don't understand what they are doing. At least study what they are doing to see if it will work or not.

But then America has never been that way inclined and you know what the old saying is about those who fail to learn from history.

Economics 101: When your country's currency is inflated, which means it isn't worth the crap, you won't be able to grow your economy using protectionism. You need outside income because your's isn't worth enough to run the country. It may seem like you win with this tactic but it will take down the economy in the long run. Growing nothing is still nothing.
post #51 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Nothing stupid about trying to protect the people who the government supposedly serves. RIM is complying, as did other manufacturers. Not so stupid after all.

LOL - so you are able to measure some sign of intelligence through acts of stupidity? And this protects and serves the people how? It will merely drive consumers to a thriving black market. The government should be focused on why they have been a continuing failure to their citizens for decades. It has nothing to do with iPhones.
post #52 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmperorsNewClothes View Post

Rather than criticise Argentina, isn't it about time the US protected its own industries? Instead we have statements coming out that China is not a currency manipulator, which is the biggest load of BS I've heard in a long time. Ladies and gentlemen, that's your government at work, selling out US workers in favor of the Chinese and their unfair business practices, all so you can get low quality, shoddy goods at a cheap price.

No, it's not time for that. Everyone loses when protection increases. Small numbers lose when trade happens, and the majority gain far more.
post #53 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaarrrgggh View Post

Argentinia has an addressable smart phone market of around 4-6MM units per year. Let's assume that is $2.5B at retail without tarif, or approximately $500MM in tarif to be collected per year. Assembling the phones in China costs ~$60MM in incremental cost.

The simple question is if the avoided tarif offsets the cost of building a plant and operating it less efficiently than in China. I would expect the per-unit assembly cost to be about 5x (~$60/unit), and the capital cost of the plant to be about $400MM. That pretty much makes it a wash.

The alternative is to just do final assembly and packaging in-country.

That math assumes that sales to Argentines will drop to zero otherwise. Totally false. Argentina can't prevent phones from streaming in over its borders. This law will only enrich those willing to break the law and using money from those who can afford a premium price, which you would THINK would be two unintended consequences. How a politician cannot see them coming when enacting this kind of stupid protectionism is beyond me.

Actually that's not true. I assume the politicians know what will happen, but they assume that their constituents are as uninformed as many of the posters on this board about basic economics.
post #54 of 121
Yeesh, they are just trying to support their own industrial base.

What do you think would happen to apple if the US government made the same law.

Everybody is always complaining here about how Apple has no domestic manufacturing here in the states, but when some country takes the initiative to defend its home manufacturing base, you guys tell them to F off.

So what is it then? Allow foreign products, or defend your economy? I'm confused.
post #55 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Argentina is far from a third world country and I'm guessing they're tired of being a puppet for the US.

At the start of the 20th century Argentina was far from being a poor country. The mystery is why its growth did not keep up with North America and Europe. Especially considering Europe suffered devastation in two world wars. I suppose if the government was too corrupt or meddlesome that could be part of the problem. I've never heard a good explanation.
post #56 of 121
Except for brief, isolated periods of rationality, Argentina is South America's decades-long poster child for economic mismanagement. As it is elsewhere, the iPhone is a game-changer and enormously popular. That makes it the easy whipping boy for Argentinian demagogues looking to hoodwink their citizens with the big lie that "high-priced luxury imports" are what's bankrupting the country. There's no doubt that hard currency in private hands is fleeing the country, but it's not because of imports. If you're an Argentine citizen trying to protect your wealth and living under a government that you can't trust, what would you do?

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post #57 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by CGJ View Post

I don't see how stopping people going out and purchasing an expensive item (thus paying a lot of VAT on the item) is supposed to help anybody...



Better not - they got there asses kicked last time.

As you well know but some may have forgotten, they'd have got their asses kicked even faster if the French, Britain's EU partner, hadn't sold weapons to the Argentinian dictator enabling him to prolong the war and cause many deaths on both sides. Of course the French were able to make a few franks so no doubt they thought it justified. The asses in question were not your average Argentinian of course just the poor sods in the military of a loony regime.

Meanwhile an Argentinian friend of mine just carried a MacBook Pro she bought in Florida into Argentina and paid her taxes without any problems not sure what would have happened if it had been an iPhone though..
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post #58 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by 801 View Post

Yeesh, they are just trying to support their own industrial base.

What do you think would happen to apple if the US government made the same law.

Everybody is always complaining here about how Apple has no domestic manufacturing here in the states, but when some country takes the initiative to defend its home manufacturing base, you guys tell them to F off.

So what is it then? Allow foreign products, or defend your economy? I'm confused.

You're clearly confused, on that we agree.

No, everybody does not complain about how Apple has no domestic manufacturing. The same people who complain about that also think this is a great idea. You can't take a group of people who don't understand economics and claim that they are both sides of a debate. Those are the idiots. The people who understand how the world works are trashing Argentina and defending Apple for not manufacturing in the USA. Everyone benefits when companies produce their good as efficiently as possible, regardless of a line on a map. Everyone suffers when politicians get involved in corporate decisions, without exception.
post #59 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Argentina is far from a third world country and I'm guessing they're tired of being a puppet for the US.

I'll just bet you are from that third world hellhole ? Sorry 69 but once your off the tourist trap area your in a livin hellhole everywhere you look and go !! Makes our ghettos look like swanky subdivisions :-)))
post #60 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by 801 View Post

Yeesh, they are just trying to support their own industrial base.

What do you think would happen to apple if the US government made the same law.

Everybody is always complaining here about how Apple has no domestic manufacturing here in the states, but when some country takes the initiative to defend its home manufacturing base, you guys tell them to F off.

So what is it then? Allow foreign products, or defend your economy? I'm confused.

Well at least the A5 chip is made in Austin, TX.
post #61 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljocampo View Post

Economics 101: When your country's currency is inflated, which means it isn't worth the crap, you won't be able to grow your economy using protectionism. You need outside income because your's isn't worth enough to run the country. It may seem like you win with this tactic but it will take down the economy in the long run. Growing nothing is still nothing.

So you stop buying products built elsewhere and try to get those strong economic countries to buy products you built.
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post #62 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

You're clearly confused, on that we agree.

No, everybody does not complain about how Apple has no domestic manufacturing. The same people who complain about that also think this is a great idea. You can't take a group of people who don't understand economics and claim that they are both sides of a debate. Those are the idiots. The people who understand how the world works are trashing Argentina and defending Apple for not manufacturing in the USA. Everyone benefits when companies produce their good as efficiently as possible, regardless of a line on a map. Everyone suffers when politicians get involved in corporate decisions, without exception.

The biggest problem is so many politicians being paid off by the corporations or benefitting from stock buying/ shorting using insider knowledge gained though the information accessed during legislative process they are privileged to be aware of. Speaking for the USA it's high time for dramatic reformation of the legislative branch's investment and bribery, sorry I mean lobbying, regulations. OMG and I am against politics on the AI blog, excuse me while I beat myself over the head with a candle stick. On second thoughts ... This post is political in nature so I forgive myself.
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post #63 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalvin View Post

And I always thought Hugo Chavez is ruling Venezuela and not Argentina.

No, they've got Cristina Kirchner - whose first act after being elected was to seize the presses. Socialists can't stand a free press. Nor electronics competition it seems.
post #64 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post

No, they've got Cristina Kirchner - whose first act after being elected was to seize the presses. Socialists can't stand a free press. Nor electronics competition it seems.

I seem to recall extreme right wing regimes do the same thing.
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post #65 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post

No, they've got Cristina Kirchner - whose first act after being elected was to seize the presses. Socialists can't stand a free press. Nor electronics competition it seems.

A free press isn't all that its cracked up to be.
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post #66 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

A free press isn't all that its cracked up to be.

Murdoch seems to think so
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post #67 of 121
i'm from Argentina, it's pretty difficult to get Apple products over here, and i'm not happy about it 'cos i'm an apple fanboy. But i also know that when i buy an iphone, i'm paying the salary of a Chinese, so i ask mayself... why???? why do i have to pay the salary of a chinese and left one Argentinian without job? For those of you who don't know, Argentina has one of the biggest cellphone counts by people in the world. Almost every big company is building cellphones here in Tierra del Fuego (they give tax discounts there to those companys), we already have RIM (they announced it a few weeks ago) Nokia, Samsung. Ok, as a fanboy i think "thats pure shit". But as an Argentinian, i must understand. You people from US complains all the time about the lossing of jobs, the ecomony going down, maybe things wouldn't be like that for you if you give jobs to americans and not to people from china or god knows what country.

I must say that this "ban" is not new, carries stopped selling iphones in april or march. But you can get iPhones if you want, not from carriers, and a little more expensive, but you can get it. The same with every apple product. I as a fanboy wonder sometimes, what is apple to be the only company that don't make phones here? I love apple, i can think of my life without a mac (ie, using a pc) but they are a little wrong, if they knew the phone market over here, where every people has at least two phones (according to statistics), they would think different.

ps. our economy is better than most european countries.

:-)
post #68 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkywalkerMac View Post

i'm from Argentina, it's pretty difficult to get Apple products over here, and i'm not happy about it 'cos i'm an apple fanboy. But i also know that when i buy an iphone, i'm paying the salary of a Chinese, so i ask mayself... why???? why do i have to pay the salary of a chinese and left one Argentinian without job? For those of you who don't know, Argentina has one of the biggest cellphone counts by people in the world. Almost every big company is building cellphones here in Tierra del Fuego (they give tax discounts there to those companys), we already have RIM (they announced it a few weeks ago) Nokia, Samsung. Ok, as a fanboy i think "thats pure shit". But as an Argentinian, i must understand. You people from US complains all the time about the lossing of jobs, the ecomony going down, maybe things wouldn't be like that for you if you give jobs to americans and not to people from china or god knows what country.

I must say that this "ban" is not new, carries stopped selling iphones in april or march. But you can get iPhones if you want, not from carriers, and a little more expensive, but you can get it. The same with every apple product. I as a fanboy wonder sometimes, what is apple to be the only company that don't make phones here? I love apple, i can think of my life without a mac (ie, using a pc) but they are a little wrong, if they knew the phone market over here, where every people has at least two phones (according to statistics), they would think different.

ps. our economy is better than most european countries.

:-)

While sympathizing I have to ask, so every country in the World says ... "Apple build here or we ban you!" ... Is that a good idea? What about every other product you import? Free Trade is not just a phrase, it is the fundamental underpinning of the western economic system.
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post #69 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkywalkerMac View Post

i'm from Argentina, it's pretty difficult to get Apple products over here, and i'm not happy about it 'cos i'm an apple fanboy. But i also know that when i buy an iphone, i'm paying the salary of a Chinese, so i ask mayself... why???? why do i have to pay the salary of a chinese and left one Argentinian without job? For those of you who don't know, Argentina has one of the biggest cellphone counts by people in the world. Almost every big company is building cellphones here in Tierra del Fuego (they give tax discounts there to those companys), we already have RIM (they announced it a few weeks ago) Nokia, Samsung. Ok, as a fanboy i think "thats pure shit". But as an Argentinian, i must understand. You people from US complains all the time about the lossing of jobs, the ecomony going down, maybe things wouldn't be like that for you if you give jobs to americans and not to people from china or god knows what country.

I must say that this "ban" is not new, carries stopped selling iphones in april or march. But you can get iPhones if you want, not from carriers, and a little more expensive, but you can get it. The same with every apple product. I as a fanboy wonder sometimes, what is apple to be the only company that don't make phones here? I love apple, i can think of my life without a mac (ie, using a pc) but they are a little wrong, if they knew the phone market over here, where every people has at least two phones (according to statistics), they would think different.

ps. our economy is better than most european countries.

:-)

Ugh... so much wrong. I'll just give you some reading material for your ps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...PP)_per_capita

Your economy is worse than just about all european countries.

Take econ 101. Please.

"High inflation has been a weakness of the Argentine economy for decades.[64] Officially hovering around 9% since 2006, inflation has been privately estimated at over 20%,[65] becoming a contentious issue again. The urban income poverty rate has dropped to 18% as of mid-2008, a third of the peak level observed in 2002, though still above the level prior to 1976.[66][67] Income distribution, having improved since 2002, is still considerably unequal.[68][69]
Argentina ranks 105th out of 178 countries in the Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index for 2010.[70] Reported problems include both government and private-sector corruption, the latter of which include money laundering, trafficking in narcotics and contraband, and tax evasion.[71] The Kirchner administration responded to the Global financial crisis of 2008–2009 with a record public-works program, new tax cuts and subsidies,[72][73] and the transfer of private pensions to the social security system. Private pension plans, which required growing subsidies to cover, were nationalized to shed a budgetary drain as well as to finance high government spending and debt obligations.[74][75]"

From Wiki
post #70 of 121
Blocking the iphone imports is clearly a violation of international trade law. The Obama Administration should lodge a lawsuit against Argentina at the World Trade Organization
post #71 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by professorsteve View Post

Blocking the iphone imports is clearly a violation of international trade law. The Obama Administration should lodge a lawsuit against Argentina at the World Trade Organization

You have to wonder if the folks behind this actually understand international law. It almost sounds like a back room attempt at extortion by the mob.
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post #72 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

While sympathizing I have to ask, so every country in the World says ... "Apple build here or we ban you!" ... Is that a good idea? What about every other product you import? Free Trade is not just a phrase, it is the fundamental underpinning of the western economic system.

Of course not but things are so dire in Argentina that drastic and unorthodox measures had to be taken and it seems to be working since they've already convinced a few manufacturers to comply.
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post #73 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Of course not but things are so dire in Argentina that drastic and unorthodox measures had to be taken and it seems to be working since they've already convinced a few manufacturers to comply.

What's that old expression ...? "Never give in to extortion".

But seriously, if this is new news how come those others are there already? Is this not simply happenstance that Apple are not there when others are? Apple will manufacturing be in Brazil soon hopefully so they can't be everywhere.
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post #74 of 121
Once again, a government tries to solve one "problem" that results in the creation of more (and larger) problems.

Stopping free trade not only hurts the individual consumers of your own country but it also results in job loss. Sure, the iPhone is made elsewhere. However, the distribution, shipping, advertising, and sales of those iPhones create local jobs.

Hello black market.
post #75 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by noexpectations View Post

Once again, a government tries to solve one "problem" that results in the creation of more (and larger) problems.

Stopping free trade not only hurts the individual consumers of your own country but it also results in job loss. Sure, the iPhone is made elsewhere. However, the distribution, shipping, advertising, and sales of those iPhones create local jobs.

Hello black market.

There are other phones. They'll buy something. You are just grossly exaggerating the effect.
post #76 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

There are other phones. They'll buy something. You are just grossly exaggerating the effect.

There was no exaggeration in that post, much less gross exaggeration. This policy will hurt the average consumer in Argentina and help strengthen criminals who are willing to smuggle iPhones across the border. No exaggeration, just facts. All for some measly minimum wage assembly line jobs? What a stupid set of politicians.
post #77 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Apple will manufacturing be in Brazil soon hopefully so they can't be everywhere.

Apple does not manufacture anything. Not anywhere.
post #78 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Txomin View Post

Again? Las Islas Malvinas were invaded by the brits, kicking all the argentinians out.. Inform yourself before making stupid comments.

Mmmmm stupid comments eh? Are you sure Argentina existed as a country when the islands were first settled by Brits? The Brits settled those islands in 1690. Meanwhile Argentina was established as a legal, federal state in 1853-1861. So where did those 'Argentinians' come from in 1690 that you say were kicked out? Perhaps you are confusing Spaniards with Argentinians, in which case the Brits and the Spaniards were kicking each other all over the place in 1690 but I hate to break it to you, there were no Argentinians at the time the islands were settled by Brits. The correct name is therefore, The Falkland Islands.
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post #79 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by maccherry View Post

Who cares! The Argentines come to America and shop till they drop. I live on Miami beach and there is an Apple store on a place called Lincoln road. I work in the hotel biz and I see them stock piling Mac book airs,Mac books, iPads and iPhones like they are going out of style.

Exactly, therein lies the stupidity of anti trade practices like this, unless they turn into a a closed society entirely people will buy elsewhere, the demand may even increase (you always want what you can't have even more). We simply sell more here in the US and Argentina loses the ability to have Apple Stores and all sorts of spin off revenues!

I have to think this will be re thought ...
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post #80 of 121
Why not whip up a small iPhone plant in Argentina? In fact, Apple should be moving to spread its manufacturing so it doesn't have a single point of failure in case some big disaster (earthquake?) hits China. Spread the risk.
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