Pipelines vs. Megahertz new strategy

Apple would be best served by somehow moving the selling points away from component metrics and toward high-level usability (e.g.: "The Titanium PowerBook can do real-time video editing"), which plays to their strengths. Anyone can slap something together that has an impressive-looking spec sheet and disappointing performance in practice. The iPod's 5GB drive is better than the Nomad's 20GB drive because you can actually use it, but if all that's advertised is the hard drive capacity than that practical advantage loses out to an essentially meaningless number.

Agreed. The approach "We are just as fast as the Pentium XXX X.XGhz just isn't that alluring.

Get to the juice, render fiels quick and easy, burn your cd in x amount of minutes, crop and resize in seconds, etc.

Either that or they should relese a G5

Amorph's idea is cool

But....

When Apple is saying "Our laptop can do realtime video editing". Those average joes will wonder how fast they are. When they see the Mhz is 667. They may think "Hey, a 667Mhz machine can do realtime video. Look at that 1Ghz P4 laptop, it should be even better!"

Get my idea? Sometime (not sometimes, but ALWAYS) those average joes still look at numbers

That's why Apple opened up their own chain of stores.

People who don't do their homework, ask the salesman.

The salesman is the one that does the, "It can do realtime editing" while this XX PC here needs to render at 1.7X speed...

~Kuku

[quote]Originally posted by satchmo:
<strong>Good points Amorph. Apple seems to be headed that way in their advertising already focussing on solutions, usability and productivity.

However, today's consumer is very educated and will eventually compare the specs. Afterall it is a major purchase and I assume one wouldn't plop down $2K or so without doing their homework and reading the fine print.

It's great getting people motivated and excited about Apple products through hip commercials, but we still need to throw in some techno jargon to back it up.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sorry, some people may compare specs but the avergae consumer is DUMB. Really ****ing dumb. I know this from a little sales experience. The majority of the market is not made up people like us. It is soccer moms and dads going to circuit city and saying "oh and ahhh" over the latest wintels and what the sales person tells them. Although, they do look at the MHZ...I'll give you that. They hear Pentium 1.8GHZ and think it is fast. They don't even know about RAM. Most only look at chip speed and screen size. They don't know that an "emachines" comp is a POS. They don't even know the damn difference between a DURON and an ATHALON or a CELERON and PENTIUM. I just was explaining this to my father-in-law the other day....people are just that uninformed about the whole thing.

Apple should perhaps do what AMD is doing right now...naming their chips/comps based on performance....like Athalon 1800XP (which is a 1.5 GHZ chip I think). I'm not suggesting actual names but it might work if they can't keep up with MHZ anymore.

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>

Your post was great but I'm not sure what an "Athalon" is.

Yeah, the 1800+ is 1.53GHz, 1900+ is a 1.6GHz etc. AMD is actually kind of humble with it's ratings...most tests indicate that even an 1800+ will beat out a 2.0GHz P4 rather easily.

[quote]Originally posted by Leonis:
<strong>Amorph's idea is cool

But....

When Apple is saying "Our laptop can do realtime video editing". Those average joes will wonder how fast they are. When they see the Mhz is 667. They may think "Hey, a 667Mhz machine can do realtime video. Look at that 1Ghz P4 laptop, it should be even better!"

Get my idea? Sometime (not sometimes, but ALWAYS) those average joes still look at numbers </strong><hr></blockquote>
EXACTLY! They will se 667 and say, "cool a 1ghz will be better!" or "As usual, Apple is a bullshit computer brand lying as they always do."

[quote]Originally posted by Kuku:
<strong>That's why Apple opened up their own chain of stores.

People who don't do their homework, ask the salesman.

The salesman is the one that does the, "It can do realtime editing" while this XX PC here needs to render at 1.7X speed...

~Kuku</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, but if the consumer doesn't definately want a Mac why would they go to an Apple Store if they could go to a place like CompUSA since they don't know better?

No matter how dumb a person is, they should respond to real benchmark data, with bar graphs. Apple doesn't use those any longer because they would look bad

But if Apple could show a few of the most popular apps in a bar graph that illustrated a Powermac performing faster than a Pentium, then that would be a solid piece of advertising.

Perhaps Apple will do this with the G5s...problem is that by the time the 1.8 GHz G5 comes out Intel will be at 4 GHz.

Apple is doomed.

[quote]Originally posted by Leonis:
<strong>Amorph's idea is cool

But....

When Apple is saying "Our laptop can do realtime video editing". Those average joes will wonder how fast they are. When they see the Mhz is 667. They may think "Hey, a 667Mhz machine can do realtime video. Look at that 1Ghz P4 laptop, it should be even better!"

Get my idea? Sometime (not sometimes, but ALWAYS) those average joes still look at numbers </strong><hr></blockquote>


yep....

any ideas to get away from MHz just won't work. the public has been brainwashed by Mhz. it's quite sad. even AMD's attempt to beat the Mhz misconception is failing.

[quote]Originally posted by EmAn:
<strong>

Yeah, but if the consumer doesn't definately want a Mac why would they go to an Apple Store if they could go to a place like CompUSA since they don't know better?</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's why they are going in high-traffic malls. An average joe might be walking around the mall sometime and see the very eye-catching Apple displays. He might go in, check out some of the comps, even talk to a sales person. He probably won't by a mac that day., but he'll know they exist.

[quote]Perhaps Apple might consider marketing future Mac with that information up front. For example:
PowerMac w/933mhz / short pipeline G4 processor
etc...

<hr></blockquote>

shortness of pipelines has no more to do with performance than MHz.

EmAn,

That's just spitting hairs here. IF people go to Sears and didn't do their homework, giving benchmark wouldn't matter much because they will ask the salesman to claifly which defeats the purpose.

Either way, people are going to get suckered if they don't do their homework.

The only difference is that with Opening of Apple chain, it's not as one sided as it used to be.

~Kuku

I never realized the AI board were such a hotbed of philisophical discourse. I bet few of you did either!

Regardless, what we are trying to do (in terms of philisophical reasoning) is redefine a universal standard. The standard for the average consumer for measuring speed is MHz, there is no denying that. What we are attempting to do in this thread is to create an alternative, yet equally reliable, definition that makes Apple look better.

Some of the methods for this are to talk about Apple's stregths, such as real time editing. Others have proposed introducing benchmark data. These both serve the purpose of keeping a universal standard (ie, not skewing the facts in favor of the Mac), while using a more valid test of performance.

However, what you ask is ultimately impossible. Apple does not have the cognitive weight in the consumer's mind to overcome the "facts" PC companies put out there. What we say is measured against them, and if we differ, then we are wrong. We are the kids in the spelling bee, they are the dictionary.

As with most philisophical debates, there is no answer. But the debate itself has merit!

- Pook :cool:

Bah, the biggest problem that Apple has is that people never have a chance to use their machines. (trust me, i'm going somewhere with this)

The best way to get people to use Apple computers is to make Apple computers the most cost effective method of doing a specific/important task.

Sorry to say, but if a Mac can do video editing at 1 tenth the cost of a PC, businesses will buy Macs. They don't care about specs, they care about practicality. The advantage of selling to business is simple. To sell 100 machines to an uninformed public, you need to educate 100 buyers. (as most people purchase a single computer at a time) In a business envionment, to sell 100 machines you often time would need to only educate 1-5 buyers.

Every company has limited resources, Apple would be better off going after the businesses rather than the individual.

That being said, the major purchasing factor in a majority of end-user computer buyers is what kind of machine they have a work. This is due to two main reasons.

1. They are familiar with the machines, and are not intimidated by them. In my opinion, this is the major reason people buy machines at home like their machines at work.

2. They can justify the purchase by telling themselves they can work at home and/or become more familiar with their work related software. This is often the touted reason, but usually not the underlying cause. (IMO)

That being said, the other market Apple needs to chase after is the gaming market. That's the other big reason people buy computers, whether they admit it or not. Get games, and get them first on the Mac and you'll see sales take off. If a few big titles play better on Macs than on PC's, I am positive you would see a huge upswing in Mac sales to home users.

Chip speeds and all that are nice, but not really the underlying cause for purchasing. People buy what they know, and they buy what they secretly want.

-Alcimedes

i always thought that they should drop the Mhz rating completely and advertise the GigaFlops.

Introducing the XX.X Gigaflop PowerMac G4

When are some of you going to wake up and realize it doesn't make a damn bit of difference what we do relative to Wintel and AMD? Mac OS basically has about 30 million users now. Even if that number just remains static, it will be more than enough to keep Apple viable and keep the niche markets in tact.

As bad as the whole MHz fiasco has been, Apple has not been losing many of its customers to Wintel. In fact, just the opposite. We're gaining a little bit every year -- because bottom line...Apple's products are just more functional, more elegantly designed and more desirable than the crap other companies mass-produce.

What we need is not to get all those "idiots" who don't understand pipeline stage theory over to our side...all we need to to keep US happy. And honesly...some of you guys have spent the last two years bitching up a storm about 500Mhz this, G5 that and all the rest. And yet where do your allegiances lie - still, to this day? Apple. What if we don't see a G5 for another year...where will your allegiance lie? Apple.

Wake up guys. You're arguing about semantics, about next to nothing really. We were all here when the fiasco started, we're all still here now, and we'll all be here when the next fiasco happens (whatever that is). Unless Apple stops producing elegantly designed products (and I don't mean just the encasements), we're not going anywhere, and neither is Apple.

Duh.

I'm really sick of hearing about the average Joe. You can't use him to explain consumer behavior. What you're basically saying here is that all Americans think like some steriotypical hick from Arkansas. People don't automatically go out and pick the PC the largest number after the name. Believe it or not consumers do have brains. There are plenty of other reasons why they may not want a Mac. Don't use a stupid steriotype to generalize something you obviously haven't spent much time thinking about.

[quote]Originally posted by Keeksy:
<strong>I'm really sick of hearing about the average Joe. You can't use him to explain consumer behavior. What you're basically saying here is that all Americans think like some steriotypical hick from Arkansas. People don't automatically go out and pick the PC the largest number after the name. Believe it or not consumers do have brains. There are plenty of other reasons why they may not want a Mac. Don't use a stupid steriotype to generalize something you obviously haven't spent much time thinking about.</strong><hr></blockquote>

obviously you haven't thought much about it. the sad fact is the majority of people buying computers no absolutely nothing but look at the highest numbers. one of the few things nearly everyone will ask for when buying a computer is how many Mhz. even if they have no clue what Mhz relates to or whatever.

[quote]Originally posted by applenut:
<strong>

obviously you haven't thought much about it. the sad fact is the majority of people buying computers no absolutely nothing but look at the highest numbers. one of the few things nearly everyone will ask for when buying a computer is how many Mhz. even if they have no clue what Mhz relates to or whatever.</strong><hr></blockquote>

As unfortunate as this may be, he is absolutly correct. I worked for Wal-Mart many years ago, and the one thing the was constantly asked of me was "Is 600MHz fast??"

Unfortunatily, we live in a world of numbers folks. We just can't do away with them. For too many years people have unwittedly figured MHz = Speed. What was unfortunate is that Apple didn't combat it earlier (or didn't want to). It is up to them and AMD to take the charge and show that MHz is not a real indicator. This is what it is going to take in order to get through to customers.

lol, i think keeksy's real name is Joe.....

[quote]Originally posted by Mike Eggleston:
<strong>

As unfortunate as this may be, he is absolutly correct. I worked for Wal-Mart many years ago, and the one thing the was constantly asked of me was "Is 600MHz fast??"

Unfortunatily, we live in a world of numbers folks. We just can't do away with them. For too many years people have unwittedly figured MHz = Speed. What was unfortunate is that Apple didn't combat it earlier (or didn't want to). It is up to them and AMD to take the charge and show that MHz is not a real indicator. This is what it is going to take in order to get through to customers.</strong><hr></blockquote>

True, but I'm saying it's not the only reason. Many people stay away from Macs because they are worried about compatiblity. They may think they're too expensive, or the 1 year warrenty may be too short. I remember when I first purchased a G4 and was bragging about it at school. A kid walked up to me and said "Yeah, I heard those G4s are three times faster than PCs in graphics applications." What I'm trying to say is you can't use Joe to steriotype all consumers. There is a real mix of people out there. Granted, many think MHz = speed, but more than a few do know not buy purely on clock speed. Tons of consumers are a bit better educated. They may still not buy the Mac, but they will pick to "slower" PC instead of the "faster" one because it has a FireWire, or a CD-RW. Don't kid yourselves. Apple isn't gaining market share simply because Joe thinks Macs are slow. If it was that simple, all Apple has to do is call the 867MHz PowerMac G4 the PowerMac G4 1900+. MHz is not as big a worry for Apple as some other things I can name, mainly Microsoft, but the list goes on.

[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: Keeksy ]</p>

I actually agree with Keeksy's last post. Here at NC State (a *big* engineering school, 28000 students) everyone I know likes my PowerMac. The guys I roomed with last year didn't know much about computers, but when I moved in this past semester everyone in my suite was asking about my Dual 500 G4. They all thought it was a great machine and would love to have one, but why don't they? They want to ensure compatibility with all their software and they can build a good PC for a third of the price. For these guys, marketing doesn't mean a thing. Compatibility and price do.

But as for Joe consumer, yeah, the average buyer is an idiot.. I know this OH TOO WELL from personal experience. I have tried and I have tried to explain to people at my office and my mother's office about computers. Now, I'm not necessarily trying to force them into buying Macs; I just want them to get a good, reliable computer for their money, even if they want a Windows PC. Does my talk matter? It doesn't seem to. Do they understand me when I explain that an Athalon is better than a P4 even though the numbers are lower? I don't think so. Do they have a clue what a bus is? They think it's a mode of mass transit. Shoot, I have a hard enough time trying to explain why you would want more RAM. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

Educating the consumer will not work when it comes to specs and numbers. These people need to see Apple computers first-hand and see real-world applications, even something like Steve's infamous Photoshop bake-offs. These people need word-of-mouth testimony to comfort them and know that they are getting a good computer. The Apple Store chain is the only feasable way I can imagine doing this. When the US picks up from the recession, Apple should be poised to make some great sales from those stores if managed right.

First of all, there actually was a more or less platform independent way of indicating the performance of a chip: MIPS (Million Instructions Per Second), this is even better then FLOPS, since FLops only focus on floating point performance, which important, but not for all the apps out there. Word doesn't care much about the FPU.

And for gods sake, stop calling the Athlon Athalon, it degrades you right into the mass of John Does who have no clue about what they're saying, buying or using. It's Athlon, as in Athletic, not Athaletic.

G-News

[quote]Originally posted by G-News:
<strong>First of all, there actually was a more or less platform independent way of indicating the performance of a chip: MIPS (Million Instructions Per Second)</strong><hr></blockquote>

MIPS is a joke.

Here are some questions for you (and if you can answer these, you'll understand why MIPS is a joke):
(1) What is an instruction?
(2) Do the PowerPC, Pentium, and Alpha use the same instructions?

[quote]Originally posted by G-News:
<strong>First of all, there actually was a more or less platform independent way of indicating the performance of a chip: MIPS (Million Instructions Per Second)</strong><hr></blockquote>

MIPS is a joke.

Here are some questions for you (and if you can answer these, you'll understand why MIPS is a joke):
(1) What is an instruction?
(2) Do the PowerPC, Pentium, and Alpha use the same instructions?

[quote]EXACTLY! They will se 667 and say, "cool a 1ghz will be better!" or "As usual, Apple is a bullshit computer brand lying as they always do."<hr></blockquote>

Maybe, and maybe not.

People default to MHz because when they walk into Best Buy, that's the only real differentiation there is between machines besides the cases.

What they really want is something that works, both in terms of reliability and compatibility. Apple can reach them by advertizing what their machines can actually do, and demonstrating it. First-hand experience trumps anything else. If Apple is careful to mention that the reason the PowerBook can do real-time editing is because of things that are only available on Macs (OS X, FCP) then it doesn't matter what the numbers on any other notebook say.

Of course, higher MHz numbers won't hurt anything, and I support Apple's push to get higher-clocked as well as faster processors out the door faster. But in the end, Apple can gain a lot of ground just taking advantage of the level of frustration and defeated expectations that most people have with Windows PCs, no matter what the MHz rating is.

[quote]What they really want is something that works, both in terms of reliability and compatibility. Apple can reach them by advertizing what their machines can actually do, and demonstrating it. First-hand experience trumps anything else. If Apple is careful to mention that the reason the PowerBook can do real-time editing is because of things that are only available on Macs (OS X, FCP) then it doesn't matter what the numbers on any other notebook say.

<hr></blockquote>

true, to an extent. but do you really think that advertising/marketing is good enough to sell someone a 3-4k computer setup that they have no experience with? i don't. i'm sorry, but i don't think that people trust advertising all that much. or that if they go into an Apple store they'll say "hey, that salesman could do it really easily, let's drop a few grand on a machine we know nothing else about"

sure, it'll happen on occasion, but not often enough to make a real impact. if you want to get people to buy macs, you have to force people to use macs.

Apple knows this, and this is why they went after the school/education market. they figured they'd get them as soon as possible and then all these kids would want macs.

good idea in concept, but it has a few problems.

1. kids have to do work on those computers at school. kids want games not work. you do work on the apple's at school, then head over to jimmy's house and play 3 hours of CounterStrike. guess which one the kids gonna want?

2. last time i checked, most kids don't have a few grand sitting around. this means that they have to go through their parents to get what they want. so even if the kids want a mac, that doesn't mean jack. they have to convince their parents that they should have a mac. Dad or Mom isn't going to buy a $3,000 computer because Junior wants one. or even $1,000 for that matter. why? because that's a damn expensive present for your kids.

edit: 3. (oops, almost forgot this one) schools are famous for having really, really old technology. so most of the experience that kids have with macs are on crappy, old versions. so they end up thinking that macs suck in general.

so once again, you come back to the problem of getting the computers into the hands of adults. and once again, i feel the only way to do that is for apple to make their computers so much cheaper to do important tasks that businesses will have no choice but to buy one.

did you know that at one point, Apple had a 25% market share? what are they now, 5% tops? they had that 25% market share when they were the only affordable solution to desktop publishing. the reason was that businesses didn't give a shit what OS they were using, they could save $20,000 by buying a Mac over the other alternative, so you either buy Macs or your competition puts you out of business. so what happens then? business owners and their employees end up with tons of hands on experience with Macs and how they work. what happens? when they go to buy a computer, they have one that they're very familiar with, one that they're comfortable with, and one that they can justify as a learning tool for work. so they actually go ahead and buy a Mac.

if apple doesn't push after the business market, they will not survive.

[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: alcimedes ]</p>

[quote] People don't automatically go out and pick the PC the largest number after the name. Believe it or not consumers do have brains. <hr></blockquote>

LOL, I agree with your point--Apple faces more problems than MHz, like compatibility concerns, cost, and the simple fear that most people have of learning something new and different.

But I think you're wrong about consumers with braings. It is impossible to overestimate the stupidity of the general public. One need look no further than the man elected to lead our country, to see that the general public has little brainpower, little respect for intelligence, and little desire to think for themselves.

When someone buys a wintel, they often are staying in the comfort zone established by their work computer. They know Windows already, and since most people are afraid of computers and technology, they fear having to learn a new OS (not that they even know what an OS is, you see, they don't even know what they fear, that is the depth of their ignorance). When someone is afraid of something, they will do anything to rationalize a decision based on fear, so that they don't have to acknowledge that part of their life is run by fear.

Example: A person is afraid to learn how to use a Mac. So they use excuses for not buying one; compatibility issues, MHz, cost, app availability, ect. I've even heard people say that they couldn't buy a Mac, because their relatives have Windows and they want to
"talk" with their relatives computers! WTF does that even mean? Apparently they believe that mac email doesn't work with windows.

Apple is fighting more than MHz--they are fighting a cultural perception of Macs being "outcast" computers, in a society where conformity is valued above all else.

[quote]Originally posted by msp:
<strong>

MIPS is a joke.

Here are some questions for you (and if you can answer these, you'll understand why MIPS is a joke):
(1) What is an instruction?
(2) Do the PowerPC, Pentium, and Alpha use the same instructions?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Check <a href="http://www.scl.ameslab.gov/HINT" target="_blank">http://www.scl.ameslab.gov/HINT</a>
HINT is the best computer benchmarking tool I've ever seen.

Take a look at Nicholas Coult's home page: <a href="http://www.ima.umn.edu/~coult/hint.html" target="_blank">http://www.ima.umn.edu/~coult/hint.html</a>

Last year he has done an Altivec HINT benchmark (what I allways wanted to do since the G4 was released)!

hey, cool link. thanks.

[quote]Originally posted by Keeksy:
<strong>

True, but I'm saying it's not the only reason. Many people stay away from Macs because they are worried about compatiblity. They may think they're too expensive, or the 1 year warrenty may be too short. I remember when I first purchased a G4 and was bragging about it at school. A kid walked up to me and said "Yeah, I heard those G4s are three times faster than PCs in graphics applications." What I'm trying to say is you can't use Joe to steriotype all consumers. There is a real mix of people out there. Granted, many think MHz = speed, but more than a few do know not buy purely on clock speed. Tons of consumers are a bit better educated. They may still not buy the Mac, but they will pick to "slower" PC instead of the "faster" one because it has a FireWire, or a CD-RW. Don't kid yourselves. Apple isn't gaining market share simply because Joe thinks Macs are slow. If it was that simple, all Apple has to do is call the 867MHz PowerMac G4 the PowerMac G4 1900+. MHz is not as big a worry for Apple as some other things I can name, mainly Microsoft, but the list goes on.

[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: Keeksy ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


The avg Joe doesn't have software. The avg Joe doesn't own a computer. There are other consumers that add the the mix, but they aren't avg. They are current pc owners who have their own fears or reasons for not switching. I am speaking of non computer users or consumers who just recently bought a pc and are still considered avg.

I convinced my parents to get an iMac. My mom would tell her friends that I told them to get an iMac and she would here from more 'avg Joe's' that "a mac, why? They are just for graphics" and "but you can't surf the net on a mac" and "I won't be able to email you". Well, after my mom got the iMac and began emailing and replying her friends were all saying "I didn't know a Mac could do that". Never did speed become an issue. Only was the model iMac I recommended fast. The price is only an issue when comparing the towers. Even then, it's moot when you comparea good brand (not built in someone's garage) and add all the extras to it. The 'avg Joe' needs to be educated that Macs can do it all. I don't think I;ve ever heard someone say "only a 1 year warantee?, **** that"

[quote]Originally posted by alcimedes:
<strong>
The best way to get people to use Apple computers is to make Apple computers the most cost effective method of doing a specific/important task.
...
That being said, the major purchasing factor in a majority of end-user computer buyers is what kind of machine they have a work.
...
That being said, the other market Apple needs to chase after is the gaming market. That's the other big reason people buy computers, whether they admit it or not. Get games, and get them first on the Mac and you'll see sales take off. If a few big titles play better on Macs than on PC's, I am positive you would see a huge upswing in Mac sales to home users.
...
-Alcimedes</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes. Well said. Your points (in your later post) about schools with old macs are valid, too.

Apple is on the right track by marketing their machines as solutions, not as numbers. I think you're right: they need to go further.

They need to offer viable, cost-effective solutions for, among other things, average businesses and people who play games (college students come to mind). Notice, by cost effective I'm not suggesting that Apple lower the Mac into the commodity PC market (Dell's already got a stranglehold). All I'm saying is that they need to expand their target audiences beyond grahics and grandmas.

It could be something as simple as giving the iMac an upgradable video card.

Or introducing a business-level modular workstation. Something like Compaq's iPaq comes to mind (not the PDA).

Of course, they'll need the marketing to go with it. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />


-mithral

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Mithral ]

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Mithral ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by alcimedes <hr></blockquote>

Try this one:
<a href="http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/G4ZONE/HINT-7400vs7450/HINT_7400vs7450_CPUs.html" target="_blank">http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/G4ZONE/HINT-7400vs7450/HINT_7400vs7450_CPUs.html</a>