Reacting to Apple at CES 2012: Intel's Ultrabooks to Samsung's Galaxy Note - Page 2

More like LG Prada copy iPhone.

Quoting an editable (by anyone) information source is not a conclusive evidence.


He/she may not have SPECIFICALLY have said Apple invented chicklet keyboard but he is certain referencing it by his tone of his statement. Stop trying to wiggle out of this one.

..clearly posted by someone too young to remember the TRS-80 Color Computer.

Sony started using a similar keyboard on its high end Vaios in 2004-2005, but those models weren't selling in quantity. Also, most of its product line was still using conventional keyboards.

Apple had been using super thin keyboards since at least the 2001 Titanium PowerBook, and many PC types were complaining that they had "too little travel."

In 2006 Apple introduced the new Intel MacBook with a low profile keyboard that separated the keys ("Island style") with a margin around them, something that left it looking new and distinctive (in part because nobody had seen the Sony keyboards, which were looked different than those used on the MacBook).

It's therefore not surprising that people call this a "MacBook keyboard." It's also not too surprising that PCs use components that Apple popularized. But the point is that Apple created the entire look of notebooks, from palm rests and a mouse/trackpad in front of them in the early 90s PowerBooks to the low profile keyboard of the TiBook in 2001 to the Island keyboard of the MacBook in 2006 to the Unibody aluminum design of MacBook Air in 2008 (as well as backlight keyboards, black/metal looks, and so on).

It's obvious that Ultrabooks are trying to copy Apple's notebooks that are selling. What's interesting is that PC users have generally complained about everything Apple does until a PC version comes out, when they then adopt it. That's silly. I don't hear Mac users complaining about PC features that Macs don't have. They just complain that Apple hasn't added it yet.

As for Wikipedia, there is zero correlation between "chicklet" keyboards of the early 80s and the (Sony built?) Island style key spacing of modern, mechanical keyboards. Why some idiot put them in the same story is an example of why Wikipedia is a poor source of information. It is really only useful as a compendium of information taken from actual, cited sources.

Apple is using exactly the same atoms and molecules as everyone else. They didn't invent a single new atom. So what is this nonsense about others copying Apple's MacBook Air? Apple just markets the same old atoms better to its deluded tiny fanbase.

As usual, Apple innovates and virtually everybody else shamelessly rips off Apple's designs and comes out with their own junk that looks like cheap, inferior copies of Apple's designs.

Ultrabooks? Some of them look like fucking cheapass copies of Macbook Airs. What kind of fool would buy something like that?

I expect a moron or two to come along here and claim that there is only so many ways that you can make a laptop, just like some retards like to claim that there's only so many ways that you can make a tablet. Nothing looked like the Macbook Air when it first came out, and now many companies all have their own inferior, piece of shit Macbook Air clones.

The fact of the matter is that many of Apple's products have a very distinct design and when you see products from other companies coming out years later that look very, very similar to Apple's designs, there is no doubt as to who they have been copying from. Only an ignoramus would attempt to argue with that.

I'm glad though that many PC laptops still keep their trackpad off center, because that looks disgusting and highly unusable, not to mention that the trackpad itself is probably around a decade behind Apple's trackpad technology. The typical PC user would never notice the difference though, as they're used to using junk, and if somebody has never experienced the best, then how would they know what they're missing?

Uneditable information isn't conclusive evidence either. What is conclusive are the details and images that are backed up by citations and can be researched independently.

You have shown absolutely no facts that Sony invented the style you name or that the very clear images are doctored, false or anything else you might claim.



He stated invented and gave two very specific names for the style he was referring to. He is wrong. You are wrong. You're also ignorant to think that Wikipedia can't be a good resource. Wikipedia is a great starting place but if you can't put in the minimal effort to corroborate its information then that's your problem.

There are plenty of data points on that page to show first usage of the keyboard style and none of them are from Sony. it doesn't prove invention and doesn't rule out that Sony didn't have a patent for such a keyboard in 1970, but it does show that Sony didn't invent it for the machines he implied. There is a very specific citation that appears to be from a 1984 magazine that describes the keys as Chiclet.

Having the option to run windows is a major argument in sellling macs to windows users, like it or not.

Major argument isn't the same as a major reason. I'm not buying the argument that Apple Stores are less influential in selling Macs than Microsoft Windows. We can see a clear upward trend that starts after Apple Stores were established but before Boot Camp existed.

Maybe you should just read History of laptops before even claiming apple created the notebook look...

there you can also see the first apple notebooks had a trackball on the side (later on front).

Only in 1994 Apple licensed the trackpad technology and included it in their laptops.

Apple has a nose for new technology (and often licenses it (arm), or buys it (intrinsity, fingerworks)), combined with remembering their successes and forgetting their failures lead to a false sense of 'apple created/invented everything'....

Any discussion about this quickly leads to : oh no, they re-invented it, or they popularized it. Both are completely different things.

Wow. That's some blatant copying.

I believe it is likely that when some consider migrating to Apple Mac the ability to use Microsoft Office: for Mac natively or dual boot or have a virtual Microsoft OS is comforting.

Despite this, I believe only a fool can deny that Apple has the most advanced OS platform available. No other company provides the same OS platform for so many form factors: personal computers (Macs), phones (iPhones), portable media players (iPod), tablets (iPad), streaming media players (AppleTV), Wi-Fi routers (AirPort). The Apple OS platform readily adapts to the specialized feature set and workflow for each purpose.

Linux as well or should I say Unix and include OSX/iOS as well

edit : my bad, you said company...

A very important reason why more and more people are buying Macs, and one feature that few companies can emulate, is the Apple stores.

My technophobic friends are taking their Windows laptops (not to mention BBs) into Apple stores and come out with MBAs loaded most essential files.

This is the most oft-forgotten part of the Apple ecosystem.

The Intel/Apple relationship is interesting. I haven't read any rumors/info about it in long time.

Apple and Intel signed a five year exclusive agreement in 2005-2006. Intel provided CPUs + designed Apples motherboards. Intel also did special CPU designs like the original Macbook Air CPU and gave Apple often a couple of month of head start using new CPUs.

The last 2 years we have seen the Apple/Intel romance falter. First it was Intel's arrogance that locked out other motherboard board vendors from using Intels CPUs. Apple needed a good GPU on the motherboard since the OS is accelerated in GPU since OSX 10.2. Intel's integrated graphic wasn't good enough.

Apple and Intel had a feud. Apple refused to use the latest Intel CPUs since there where no good GPU inside it. Apple requested i7/i5 processors without the integrated GPU since Apple didn't want to use it. Intel refaced. This lead to Apple using Core 2 way to long and Apple started to talk to AMD.

The Apple/AMD deal fell thru when AMD could not guarantee over 1 million APUs per month to Apple. Apples backup plan went into effect. ARM OSX.

The question is: Have Apple and Intel signed a new agreement? No? This explains how hostile Intel are today. Intel knows that Apple have an ARM version of OSX. HardMac reported in May 2010 that Apple are merging iOS and OSX.

Intel is now sponsoring ultrabooks to compete with Macbook air. This would be irrelevant for Intel if Apple would use Intel CPUs in the feature. Intel does not care about the brand of the computer that sells their CPUs. Since Apple already have ARM prototype laptops, Intel believes that Apple is going to switch to ARM.

This is Intel fault since they have gone lazy. Since 2006 they have not had any competition from AMD. Since 2006 Intel have increased performance on their CPUs with a bit under 100%.

At the same time ARM have increased its performance 17 times. We are now at a point there the difference in speed is irrelevant for almost all applications especially since you can do better/more efficient programming on RISC/PPC then with 40 year old X86. Apple are specialists in this using Altivec/SIMD/GPU and DSPs that are fare faster then CPU.

Intel is seeing the Apple effect. Like many other companies before, Apple is going to make old legacy companies irrelevant.

Intel will be a niche CPU maker exactly like other greedy CPU brands before them: SPARC, PPC, Power and so on. All these CPUs are better/faster then Intel, but Intel have been able to sell fast enough CPUs cheaper and drove these platforms into niche market.

Intel have too long hold out to make their insane 80%+ profit on CPUs that are made of sand. ARMs idea is to sell billions of licensed cores each quarter and make small profit on each. About 6 cent per core. Compare that to Intel's insane prices. The best Intel CPUs costs today 4400dollar/each.

Windows/Intel can play with Ultrabooks that costs 1K dollar. (where Intel's cut is 500).
Apple/Arm can play with Macbook Air that will cost 600 dollar. (where the SoC cost 25 dollar)

Special version of ms office you have to buy another license for or pay for office 365

Office is the cash cow

Everybody I know who owns a Mac switched from years of PC use to get Windows out of their lives.

I know not a single Mac owner who would run windows on their machine.
I`m not saying there are none but it`s most definitely not a motivator to buy Mac.

The only real influence Windows has on Mac sales are people trying to get away from the virus ridden blue screen spitting crap of an OS.

This is key.

I was at an Apple store last month getting AppleCare+ for my Verizon iPhone that I received in the mail. I had an appointment at 10am.

At 10am... the mall barely had anyone in it... but the Apple Store was packed.

Here's what was going on:

- 9 people sitting at the Genius Bar getting a lesson about email on their iPads
- a couple getting MS Office installed on their MacBook Pro
- a guy brought in his iMac for a lesson in Final Cut X
- plus various other teaching sessions around the store

No other platform offers that level of service and support.

Also... at 10am most of the stores at the mall were just opening their gates... while the Apple Store already had tons of traffic.

Yep. And when Apple allows or M$ creates office for ipad, they'll be making even more cash. As it stands, there is now OnLive for the ipad, which is a free app with 2gb of virtual space to work office on your ipad. And it actually works pretty well! I got my invite into it this morning.

While they can they don't. I work as an IT consultant and am responsible for buying computers, among other things. That you can run Windows is not a compelling reason to buy a Mac of any kind. People just don't reinstall the OS. While you can install Windows it makes no sense when you can buy a PC with Windows, all drivers and full support.

The bad arguments that people are buying Macs to install Windows may be true for a small enthusiast group and in some very specific instances. I've seen Windows installed using Boot Camp but even then OS X was running every time I walked by.

I can't speak about percentages of people who are installing Windows but I can tell you my experiences with, oh, 50 companies in the last 5 years or so since the surge of Macs in the workplace. People are buying them because they are getting choices and deciding they prefer the design and weight of MacBooks and Airs and the elegance and clutter free, gorgeous iMac which just works.

The migration of data to the cloud, open standards (I'll include ActiveSync there even though it's really just a free license controlled by MS) are the primary reasons. The consumerization of IT is either an affect of Apple's success or just a happy timing coincidence. I'm not sure which. Also, with ADmitMac and nice AD integration Macs are able to fit into Windows networks and get full support from even the most Windows-centric support teams.

As long as the clown called Ballmer is at M$'s helm, windows is slowly going to die away anyway and soon nowbody will care wether any windows crap will be running on a Mac.

True. Also noticed many Ultrabooks with "buttonless" trackpads, another design cue that first appeared on the MacBook line.

Agreed. However, the ability to Run Windows on a Mac via bootcamp is helping to spur sales to people who need the Windows safety blanket. Then the process of weening them off Windows can begin

Probably yes, but most of those people will very quickly realize how obsolete all those "Windows only" software is, and free up the disc space that has been reserved for the windows partition. Of course there are all this shooter games wich are not yet ported to the Mac OS. But is this relevant? Who in the right mind could possible say so?

I question myself, why would they need all this space for the trackpad. Last Time I checked
windows didn't even support multitouch gestures. So ....

I can understand the idea that people buy a Mac because it can run Windows - easy to understand that people want a safety net if they don't like the Mac (OSX), as it's a big risk to make that change from something similar.

However, none of my Mac friends dual boot, and if they do it's not often. In fact, I've never seen anyone I know run Windows on a Mac, and whenever I've seen people using Macs in airport lounges (there are huge numbers of MacBooks in airport lounges) - again I've never seen anyone running Windows...

Not to say people don't, but I've yet to run into anyone doing it.

What made the Mac popular in 2006/7 is a little product called Vista. People (including myself and several of my friends) decided that if we were making a wholesale change to Vista and something new, then OSX was no longer a risk. And Vista was (and is) a piece of crap.

The rest of the Mac take up is the whole halo affect of the iPhone and iPad. And long may it continue.

It takes a genius to explain email on iPad? Oh, the humanity!

It's cool... at least they are trying.

Lots of people save documents on their desktop because they don't know any better!

Technology is hard...

The writer of this article, Daniel Eran Dilger, has no clue -- NONE!!! -- what Adam Smith's invisible hand of the market metaphor refers to or means. Had he known, he wouldn't have used it to shoot what's remaining of his credibility straight to Hell. How embarrassing. What he said is complete, utter NONSENSE.

If he has not, in your own words, "SPECIFICALLY... said (that) Apple invented the chicklet keyboard."

then that's the end of your argument.



Interestingly it seems that you have assumed motives about my first post in this forum - how am I trying to "wiggle" out of anything?
I'm calling you out on putting words into someone's mouth that they didn't use (ie. invented), in order to back up a belief you expressed about Apple fans. Thus the only wiggling is being done by you in your reply to me.

Despite its official policies, there is plenty of "original research" that appears in Wikipedia. Conflating the rubbery chicklet keyboards of the early 80s with the mechanical, low profile "Island style" keyboards used by Sony and Apple is a good example of this. There is ZERO in common.

The only connection is that some Apple foeboys used the term "chicklet" to disparage the keyboard that pretty much all PCs now use, right up until other PC makers started using them.

There is nothing in Wikipedia nor in your own comments that indicates there is any correlation between the rubbery "touch to short out a circuit" type cheapo keypads of the Ti99 era $99 "PCs" and the low profile keyboards of 30 years later. There simply isn't.

I didn't say Wikipedia is always wrong, I just pointed out that in this instance, there is an article about chicklet keyboards that adds an ignorant paragraph out of left field about an unrelated technology because some Wiki editor decided that since he'd heard the same word applied to both, that there was some connection between them. Nothing outside of that paragraph has anything to do with modern island style keyboards.


That's because we all called those crappy rubbery keyboards "chicklet" to distinguish them from keyboards one could actually type on because they offered real mechanical action. Again, anyone calling the MacBook/Ultrabook keyboards "chicklet" is just doing so out of a malicious/ignorant attempt to disparage them, not because there is any real connection.

Except for all the astute analysis that blew over your head.

Putting words in all caps isn't actually the sign of a strong argument.

Several apps that I have to run to do my job on a daily basis are available for in Windows only versions - in fact the primary one may only be getting upgraded to be compatible with 64 bit sometime later this year - maybe.

This is not a matter of the Windows version being better or more up to date - there just plain is not ant other version of the software available at all for any OS on any hardware - it is Windows only.

My parents are in real estate - and they have many apps related to real estate and appraisal that - when there is a Mac version - it tends to be several versions behind the windows version with far fewer features or supported forms etc.

I have seen an increase in folks who I personally know switching to Mac from Windows - often as a result of their kids - often college age - exposing them to a Mac for the first time.

Over the years I have used a variety of systems from TI/99 to OS/2 to Windows 3, NT, 98, 2000, ME, Vista, 7 - Unix and VMS - and Mac OS starting way back when it before it was known as System 6.

In my experience the only folks who are Apple haters - have never truly used one - and I don't mean 2 minutes at the Best Buy Apple display - I mean actually use one. Many years ago - after a number of conversations with a co worker he finally admitted that he had never actually even seen a Mac in person - all of his arguments were based on what he heard from friends or read online.

According to your cited "history" the Apple designed Macintosh Portable "evolved" into the PowerBook. That's not true at all. Sony designed the original PowerBook with (for) Apple, and clearly Sony was better at designing portable hardware than Apple was in the late 80s -- it never really had before!

But regardless, it was Apple's PowerBook (with help from Sony) that sold well and established the modern form of the laptop. Until then, every PC laptop had the keyboard go right up to the front edge, and IBM continued that by adding a clit joystick in the home row of the keyboard. Nobody still does that. Everyone builds laptops patterned after the original PowerBook, because it worked.

Apple was also the first significant laptop maker to include a trackpad -- no, it didn't invent the concept of trackpads, but your desperate attempts to take credit away from Apple for popularizing many of the features of the modern notebook PC simply fails to fit the facts.

couldn´t agree more with your post

Just thinking of using a Windows prog worse a machine gives me shivers and makes my stomach contract. My neighbor dropped by today and asked me whether I could help him install Nokia Maps on his shitfckucomplexoverengineered piece of manure. Reminded me of how fckued up that MS world is. Parallels? Yeah had it because of a few games, life´s better without the games and the MSWin VM.

Overly dramatic much?

How does the misapplication of a metaphor shoot what's remaining of one's credibility straight to hell?

On that basis we'd never listen to anyone who writes on the net - including ourselves.

However if his article could be shown to be demonstrably false or disingenuous then that's another matter, and one might even countenance your conclusion.

Learn to recognize the difference between a comment and an argument.

There are few times when all caps are useful or warranted. Expressing personal disgust is one of them. (HINT: You don't have to like it.)

Any analysis/argument stemming from the incorrect use of a metaphor is rendered nonsense.

Sure, if the folks are 60+ and never before worked on a computer, heck I know people that are not even 50 have a degree and shun computers or have before coming to our place When they see my 3 year old djaying with an iDevice, racing or watching a movie or using educational and design apps and my daughter (20 months) toying around with another iDevice they do get jumpstarted. Toughest case took 9 months to buy into the Apple world, shortest 24 hours.

Shouldn't the logo read, "Inspired by the MacBook Air"?

Dell TV.
HP TV.
Gateway TV.
Lenovo TV.
Acer TV.

Where do they get these awesome ideas?