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Dems propose "reasonable profits" board

post #1 of 23
1/19/12 at 3:18pm
Thread Starter 
...for oil companies

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-actio...ompany-profits

Nah, we're not headed towards socialism. Not at all. I'm curious to see if anyone here actually thinks this is a good idea.
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post #2 of 23
1/19/12 at 3:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

...for oil companies

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-actio...ompany-profits

Nah, we're not headed towards socialism. Not at all. I'm curious to see if anyone here actually thinks this is a good idea.

No it is a terrible idea, especially given the fact that domestic is so limited by government as well.

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post #3 of 23
1/19/12 at 4:19pm
"Reasonable" profits sounds, kinda "reasonable", in the same way that "extreme" profits sounds kinda "extreme".

Reasonable anything is usually a better course than extreme anything (in a democratic republic as opposed to a totalitarian state or dictatorship)... but the issue here is why does "reasonable behavior" have to come about in a compulsory manner, rather than via voluntary decision? Perhaps it is because as a society, we are becoming unhinged, and civilized conduct is devolving, or that greed is a revered quality in capitalism.
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post #4 of 23
1/19/12 at 5:06pm
A better idea was in the comment section of that article...
A "reasonable spending" board to oversee congress!!!
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post #5 of 23
1/20/12 at 5:01pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

"Reasonable" profits sounds, kinda "reasonable", in the same way that "extreme" profits sounds kinda "extreme".

Reasonable anything is usually a better course than extreme anything (in a democratic republic as opposed to a totalitarian state or dictatorship)... but the issue here is why does "reasonable behavior" have to come about in a compulsory manner, rather than via voluntary decision? Perhaps it is because as a society, we are becoming unhinged, and civilized conduct is devolving, or that greed is a revered quality in capitalism.

I was with you until that last part. The problem is not capitalism. The problem is not people becoming unhinged and more greedy. The problem is that government is an ever growing beast, seeking more resources and more control. Jesus...we just had a supposedly mainstream political party propose a board to govern profits for PRIVATE companies. What the fuck?
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post #6 of 23
1/20/12 at 5:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I was with you until that last part. The problem is not capitalism. The problem is not people becoming unhinged and more greedy. The problem is that government is an ever growing beast, seeking more resources and more control. Jesus...we just had a supposedly mainstream political party propose a board to govern profits for PRIVATE companies. What the fuck?

Have you ever admitted that anything you ever believed in was part of the problem?

 

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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #7 of 23
1/21/12 at 12:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

"Reasonable" profits sounds, kinda "reasonable", in the same way that "extreme" profits sounds kinda "extreme".

Reasonable anything is usually a better course than extreme anything (in a democratic republic as opposed to a totalitarian state or dictatorship)... but the issue here is why does "reasonable behavior" have to come about in a compulsory manner, rather than via voluntary decision? Perhaps it is because as a society, we are becoming unhinged, and civilized conduct is devolving, or that greed is a revered quality in capitalism.

The answer lies in the fact that large swaths of America have become unhinged from its moral foundations (which whether you like it or not come from Christianity) and the nation is drifting.

The founders of your Republic expected general Christian morality to balance the excesses of Capitalism.

That bargain no longer exists, which is why America is sliding toward totalitarianism, not simply in national security affairs but in just about every sphere of life: Government, Business, Education, Family, Media etc.
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post #8 of 23
1/21/12 at 1:06am
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Saying "whether you like it or not" does not turn your alternate history into truth. But, hey, at least we can agree that we have sociopaths running corporations and worshiping at the altar of the Cult of Money. Of course, you'll naturally retort that it's government that's the problem and if it would just get out of the way, all of those nasty corporations would magically grow a conscience and not take the opportunity to further abuse the populace.

I think I'll pass on the Christian nation business, though. I don't really believe in this moral high ground they claim to possess after too many centuries of this:

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #9 of 23
1/21/12 at 1:25am
You sound like Newt trying to silence that CNN dude.

So in your world, facts you don't like don't exist, eh?

Wikipedia says that in 2011, 78% of Americans define themselves as Christian.
You're going to claim that in 1776 there were less percentage-wise? Or less observant?

I said the morality was derived from a general Christian awareness. I said nothing about any "Christian nation" business.
See a psychiatrist if you have childhood issues to deal with.

Regarding your comic, Did your Founders use European medieval torture practices?
(Thank God Apple's going into textbooks...)
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post #10 of 23
1/21/12 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

The answer lies in the fact that large swaths of America have become unhinged from its moral foundations (which whether you like it or not come from Christianity) and the nation is drifting.

The founders of your Republic expected general Christian morality to balance the excesses of Capitalism.

That bargain no longer exists, which is why America is sliding toward totalitarianism, not simply in national security affairs but in just about every sphere of life: Government, Business, Education, Family, Media etc.

Haha. That was a good laugh. Really explains Mitt Romney, doesn't it?

Admit it. Romney and other religious folk are just as guilty of greed as the most atheist of businessmen.

Now if you want to say the problem is that Christians are no longer behaving in a Christian way, I'm with you on that one.
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post #11 of 23
1/21/12 at 9:24am
This will last about as long as it takes those fucking morons to figure out that a lot of union pension are tied up in oil and gas.
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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post #12 of 23
1/21/12 at 1:27pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Have you ever admitted that anything you ever believed in was part of the problem?

If it was, I wouldn't believe it.
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post #13 of 23
1/21/12 at 1:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Haha. That was a good laugh. Really explains Mitt Romney, doesn't it?

You mean Mitt Romney...the Christian who <gasp> became very successful.

Quote:

Admit it. Romney and other religious folk are just as guilty of greed as the most atheist of businessmen.

I don't agree with that. Being prosperous does not necessarily equate with greed.

Quote:

Now if you want to say the problem is that Christians are no longer behaving in a Christian way, I'm with you on that one.

Some aren't, it's true. But Floor is correct...the nation did have a strong moral foundation at its outset, and a lot of that came from Christianity (or at least, faith in God in general). The notion is prevalent in writings of the founders. The two best examples are the Declaration and the 1st Amendment. Claiming that our moral foundations didn't come from faith is a bit silly.
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post #14 of 23
1/21/12 at 2:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Now if you want to say the problem is that Christians are no longer behaving in a Christian way...

I thought I had.
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post #15 of 23
1/21/12 at 5:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You mean Mitt Romney...the Christian who <gasp> became very successful.



I don't agree with that. Being prosperous does not necessarily equate with greed.



Some aren't, it's true. But Floor is correct...the nation did have a strong moral foundation at its outset, and a lot of that came from Christianity (or at least, faith in God in general). The notion is prevalent in writings of the founders. The two best examples are the Declaration and the 1st Amendment. Claiming that our moral foundations didn't come from faith is a bit silly.

Claiming that lack of faith is equivalent to lack of morals is not only completely wrong, it's offensive. There are plenty of atheists who have much higher morals than most religious people I know. Likewise, claiming that having faith means having morals is equally as asinine given the state of the religious folk these days.

And you're honestly saying that Mitt Romney earned his money in a way that is based on moral foundations?
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post #16 of 23
1/22/12 at 8:09am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Claiming that lack of faith is equivalent to lack of morals is not only completely wrong, it's offensive. There are plenty of atheists who have much higher morals than most religious people I know. Likewise, claiming that having faith means having morals is equally as asinine given the state of the religious folk these days.

I'm not talking about individual cases or your anecdotal "evidence." I'm talking about the moral foundations of a society.

Quote:

And you're honestly saying that Mitt Romney earned his money in a way that is based on moral foundations?

As far as I know, yes. Are you saying he earned his money is an immoral way?
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post #17 of 23
1/22/12 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I'm not talking about individual cases or your anecdotal "evidence." I'm talking about the moral foundations of a society.

The moral foundations of society, our society, every society, is humanity. Not religion.
Quote:
As far as I know, yes. Are you saying he earned his money is an immoral way?

Do some research on Bain Capital.
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post #18 of 23
1/22/12 at 11:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The moral foundations of society, our society, every society, is humanity. Not religion.

Indeed. Here's a nice op-ed that describes the lack of severe religiosity that our founders had...again, not that I expect the others to read it or change their opinions.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/12022/1204849-109-0.stm

Quote:
Although not an orthodox Christian, Jefferson admired Jesus as a moral teacher. In one of his most unusual acts, Jefferson edited the New Testament, cutting away the stories of miracles and divinity and leaving behind a very human Jesus, whose teachings Jefferson found "sublime." This "Jefferson Bible" is a remarkable document -- and it would ensure his political defeat today. (Imagine the TV commercials the religious right would run: Thomas Jefferson hates Jesus! He mutilates Bibles!)

Jefferson was confident that a coolly rational form of religion would take root in the fertile intellectual soil of America. And he took political stands that would infuriate today's religious right. He refused to issue proclamations calling for days of prayer and fasting, saying that such religious duties were no part of the chief executive's job. His assertion that the First Amendment erects a "wall of separation between church and state" still rankles the religious right today.

Quote:
In February 1756, Adams wrote in his diary about a discussion he had had with a conservative Christian named Major Greene. The two argued over the divinity of Jesus and the Trinity. Questioned on the matter of Jesus' divinity, Greene fell back on an old standby: some matters of theology are too complex and mysterious for we puny humans to understand.

Adams was not impressed. In his diary he wrote, "Thus mystery is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

As president, Adams signed the famous Treaty of Tripoli, which boldly stated, "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion ..."

 

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post #19 of 23
1/22/12 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

... moral foundations (which whether you like it or not come from Christianity) ...

No... the "moral foundations" DON'T come from Christianity.
The Founders of the USA based much of their work on the idea of a God... a creator... a higher power. But NEVER did they limit it to the Christian God. Their ideas apply just as well if the reader prefers a Muslim god, or a set of Hindu gods, or even classical Greek gods.
It's the exercise of self-control encouraged by the idea of a god (and the puny human trying to appease it) that the founders appealed to ... not to Christ or any other specific theology.
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post #20 of 23
1/23/12 at 5:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The moral foundations of society, our society, every society, is humanity. Not religion.

Do some research on Bain Capital.

I'm sure you think any private capitol firm operates immorally.
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post #21 of 23
1/23/12 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I was with you until that last part. The problem is not capitalism. The problem is not people becoming unhinged and more greedy. The problem is that government is an ever growing beast, seeking more resources and more control. Jesus...we just had a supposedly mainstream political party propose a board to govern profits for PRIVATE companies. What the fuck?

I am with you on the size and reach of government.... but the specter of big intrusive government belongs to both republicans and democrats, as we have seen recently.

IMHO, neither capitalism nor socialism are 'the problems'. Perhaps the problem is human nature, and for us to enjoy the fruits of capitalism, we have to pay a penalty of socialism, in order to maintain a semblance of civilization?
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post #22 of 23
1/23/12 at 12:27pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The moral foundations of society, our society, every society, is humanity. Not religion.

Not according to our founding fathers, who declared our rights come from "the creator."

Quote:

Do some research on Bain Capital.

How about you do that? Really, let's see how immoral Mitt Romney is. Make the case.
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post #23 of 23
1/23/12 at 12:52pm
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Our founding fathers were not the Christians you think they were. And nor does it matter. We have learned so much over the last three centuries. Holding the founders up on a pedestal as if they were a billion times smarter than anyone today is ludicrous. Of course, try telling that to idiots who hold up shit literature from thousands of years ago on an even higher pedestal...

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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