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Students' math scores jumped 20% with iPad textbooks, publisher says - Page 2

post #41 of 73
"call me in a couple years when a few respected universities' schools of education have time to do a full random sample study with lots of controls and continued progress metrics...then I will buy it...a vendor white paper is just a sales flyer for people who really really like to read and dig into detail...
I am not saying it cant improve outcomes, I am just saying that one vendor white paper on a product that until yesterday wasn't available outside their lab is bogus."



While you have a chance as a critic. Maybe. But never as a creator of future technology. You can be a leader, and create the future. Or you can wait half a decade ("a couple years", as you say) and wake up to reality. (Or you can recognize the creators of tomorrow's technology, and invest in them today).
post #42 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

Additionally I cant help but wonder what this will do to widen the economic divide...I would imagine that the richer school districts in upper crust yuppy suburbs will get this and inner city urban schools will be left with the scraps...and imagine if schools in bad neighborhoods get this, what will it do to crime? Not too many weeks ago there were stories in the press of people beating each other up and in one case I recall there was a death involved all over some $200 Nike tennis shoes...can you imagine the potential violence if thugs in the bad part of town knew that every kid on the school bus had an ipad that could be pawned for what? like $300 or more depending on options and stuff?

iPads will become a commodity every student will have one just like every student has lunch money. The muggers wll be arrested.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #43 of 73
I really don't want to sound inappropriate but really it seems like no one is really looking at the entire scope of social evolution and possible division of classes here - we don't want to have a 2 class society, those with access to information and those without but this could lead to that if we as a whole society are not careful to include the least amongst us in this transformation...

Yeah.

Probably safer to just maintain the status quo, lest anyone be left behind.

In all seriousness, obviously Papa Government will pay for an iPad for everyone. No child left behind. And certainly if taxpayers can provide cellphones for everyone who can't afford it (although a cellphone costs less than cigarettes), certainly they will pay for iPads. And if they're stolen? We can just pay for a replacement.
post #44 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by commoncents View Post

Yeah.

Probably safer to just maintain the status quo, lest anyone be left behind.

In all seriousness, obviously Papa Government will pay for an iPad for everyone. No child left behind. And certainly if taxpayers can provide cellphones for everyone who can't afford it (although a cellphone costs less than cigarettes), certainly they will pay for iPads. And if they're stolen? We can just pay for a replacement.

Please use our built-in quoting system from now on. Otherwise it makes it difficult to put into context the argument you're making.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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post #45 of 73
I have two boys and both have iPads with both games and educational apps onboard. The math apps, in particular, are really engaging and have broadened their skills. There are quite a few apps that teach math tricks which I find very interesting and helpful.

Just playing around in Garageband and other musical apps has moved them to learn how to play the piano (a real one).

The interactive textbooks looked amazing at first glance. I wish I had this technology available to me when I was in school. I can imagine physics textbooks engaging students in entirely new ways, leading to greater understanding and sparking a lifelong journey of learning.

From what I've seen with my two boys, 20% improvement might be on the low side. The challenge will be keeping the kids focused on doing their work rather than playing games or other distractions.
post #46 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by WardC View Post

Have homework, checked daily, pop quizzes, and routine weekly or (every 2 week) tests....and have a system to provide (or make available) tutoring..good tutoring for those who need it.

I did well in math in school in Algebra and Geometry but when I hit Calculus it was very foreign to me and I needed help. I am guessing an iPad course on Calculus that provided explanations and step-by-step for each problem would have helped me immensely (with Calculus).

Claim and have authority over kids, and be there for their questions, be honest with, try to understand them, repeat things over and over... iPad can`t provide teacher, but iPad can make teaching a lot easier, more on target ....
post #47 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragan0405 View Post

Claim and have authority over kids, and be there for their questions, be honest with, try to understand them, repeat things over and over... iPad can`t provide teacher, but iPad can make teaching a lot easier, more on target ....

iBooks can't provide a teacher, but perhaps email, iMessages, FaceTime, Facebook et al. on an iPad can. I can see a teacher (or eve some independent tudor/assistant) that will take and reply to questions after school hours for students that are having an issue with homework. Unfortunately not everyone can stay at school immediately afterwards for assistance. Some have other scholastic obligations, others have jobs or family obligations, others simply have no choice but to not miss the bus, yet home internet seems to be fairly common across all demographics even if it's only dialup.

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #48 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic_Al View Post

I quote Bloom County:

GENE SIMMONS NEVER HAD A PERSONAL COMPUTER WHEN HE WAS A KID.

How do we know? We know because our own well-documented research has shown conclusively that a child who lacks his own personal computer during those earliest school years will very probably grow up to be a bass player in a heavy metal rock band who wears women's fishnet pantyhose and sticks his tongue down to his kneecaps. Just like Gene Simmons.

Your child's future doesn't have to look like this.

The Banana Junior 6000 Self-portable Personal Computer System, complete with its optional software - Bananawrite, Bananadraw, Bananafile, and Bananamanager - is just what your four-year-old needs to compete in today's cut-throat world of high tech and high expectations.

The Banana Junior 6000...Buy one before it's too late. Gene's mother wishes she had.

Yeah Gene's attire and 'music' sure aren't my cup of tea either but I'm sure his mother is quite happy in her multi-million dollar mansion, as is he in his. (But I do appreciate the tongue-in-cheek.)
post #49 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

iBooks can't provide a teacher, but perhaps email, iMessages, FaceTime, Facebook et al. on an iPad can. I can see a teacher (or eve some independent tudor/assistant) that will take and reply to questions after school hours for students that are having an issue with homework. Unfortunately not everyone can stay at school immediately afterwards for assistance. Some have other scholastic obligations, others have jobs or family obligations, others simply have no choice but to not miss the bus, yet home internet seems to be fairly common across all demographics even if it's only dialup.

I`m big fan of fairy tales, I lived some of them, and I have feeling I might live something similar again
look there is a biology in play, sometimes touch can make revers in thinking, bad sunset can go wrong ...
post #50 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragan0405 View Post

I`m big fan of fairy tales, I lived some of them, and I have feeling I might live something similar again
look there is a biology in play, sometimes touch can make revers in thinking, bad sunset can go wrong ...


Sorry but
post #51 of 73
As a teacher, I have no trouble believing that there could be a 20 point increase in the number of students who pass a test. Not because a publishing company tells me it or because a researcher says so, but simply through a decade of anecdotal evidence teaching a variety of ability and grade levels in elementary schools.

It doesn't say every student will gain 20%. It says more students will pass the test. Different students learn different ways, and are motivated by different methods of instruction. Hands-on, interactive methods are better for many, if not most, students. Embedding videos or 3-D models can help students visualize things in ways a static picture can't.

I can think of any room I've worked in, and name a few high achievers who would have gone higher, a few average students who would have become above average, a few low learners who would have finally gotten it, and a few kids not motivated by books or homework, who would have been engaged and enthralled by this. I can instantly think of 10 kids I currently work with whose education experience, knowledge, and test scores, would greatly increase with interactive iPad textbooks.

I would love to have a mobile iPad lab, where they could be distributed to a class, then collected and locked up at the end of the day to prevent theft. Use the iPad books in class, give homework on worksheets. It'd be cheaper than Mac labs or iMac carts. Of course, districts would have to train teachers to best use it, as they do with any new textbook series. And, as always, the abilities of the building- and district-level administration will play a huge role in the success of the program.
post #52 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar View Post

Sorry but

right now I am a serbian teacher who have two libnian students
never mind java
post #53 of 73
I'm glad that their math skills improved. But I'm worried about the humanities. There is so much BS in the humanities these days that more efficient education is not necessarily a good thing. It would be better for civilisation if math and science classes could get the iPad, but not others.
post #54 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragan0405 View Post

right now I am a serbian teacher who have two libnian students
never mind java

Ah right. Cool.
post #55 of 73
Actually the math is wrong here. 78 is a 32% increase over 59 -- not 20%
post #56 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

This story is a perfect illistration of whats wrong with our tech media today - this is an anticdotal white paper put out by the vendor, and guess what, the new thing they want to sell looks good! shock!

call me in a couple years when a few respected universities' schools of education have time to do a full random sample study with lots of controls and continued progress metrics...then I will buy it...a vendor white paper is just a sales flyer for people who really really like to read and dig into detail...

I am not saying it cant improve outcomes, I am just saying that one vendor white paper on a product that until yesterday wasn't available outside their lab is bogus.

Spot on. This 'study' smacks more of marketing than scientific inquiry. Devices do not improve education. They can not by themselves change what goes on in a child's brain regarding assimilation of ideas and the thought processes that underlie reasoning and cognition.

The quality of a teaching method and personality of the teacher is more likely to have a real impact. These are likely to be quite device independent.
post #57 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugsnw View Post

I have two boys and both have iPads with both games and educational apps onboard. The math apps, in particular, are really engaging and have broadened their skills. There are quite a few apps that teach math tricks which I find very interesting and helpful.

Just playing around in Garageband and other musical apps has moved them to learn how to play the piano (a real one).

The interactive textbooks looked amazing at first glance. I wish I had this technology available to me when I was in school. I can imagine physics textbooks engaging students in entirely new ways, leading to greater understanding and sparking a lifelong journey of learning.

From what I've seen with my two boys, 20% improvement might be on the low side. The challenge will be keeping the kids focused on doing their work rather than playing games or other distractions.


Glad to hear it's working out so well for your sons.

I think you're right: 20% is on the low side. The thing we need to realize is that with the whole iPad-revolutionizing-education game, we've had only one pitch.

I truly believe this is going to be a radical game-changer in education. And we certainly need it. We're basically teaching our children with the same methods as a century (or more) ago. Hopefully this will be the spark to get innovators involved in shaking up the system.
post #58 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by DelMiller View Post

Actually the math is wrong here. 78 is a 32% increase over 59 -- not 20%

See what happens when you don't learn your math on the iPad!
post #59 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by DelMiller View Post

Actually the math is wrong here. 78 is a 32% increase over 59 -- not 20%

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

Spot on. This 'study' smacks more of marketing than scientific inquiry. Devices do not improve education. They can not by themselves change what goes on in a child's brain regarding assimilation of ideas and the thought processes that underlie reasoning and cognition.

The quality of a teaching method and personality of the teacher is more likely to have a real impact. These are likely to be quite device independent.

I think maybe you're seeing this wrong (or are you defensive because you're a teacher?). It's not about the device changing students. The device is simply an enabler. It will enable all sorts of new and improved ways to stimulate students minds, and to enable students to become more active in seeking out information. But the whole thing will only be extraordinary if we have extraordinary innovators developing these new creative methods. I'm quite confident we can. But it will take some time, of course. What will really get it going is if there are financial incentives for software developers to collaborate with educators.

For at least a century we've suffered through boring, heavy textbooks because that's all the industry needed to come up with a make their margins in their protected little industry.
post #60 of 73
good luck to these kids with their eyesight if they have to be using an lcd for their textbooks as well...
post #61 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by commoncents View Post

I really don't want to sound inappropriate but really it seems like no one is really looking at the entire scope of social evolution and possible division of classes here - we don't want to have a 2 class society, those with access to information and those without but this could lead to that if we as a whole society are not careful to include the least amongst us in this transformation...

Yeah.

Probably safer to just maintain the status quo, lest anyone be left behind.

In all seriousness, obviously Papa Government will pay for an iPad for everyone. No child left behind. And certainly if taxpayers can provide cellphones for everyone who can't afford it (although a cellphone costs less than cigarettes), certainly they will pay for iPads. And if they're stolen? We can just pay for a replacement.

I am not against digital textbooks, or any sort of innovation like that, but I dont like the particulars of this scenario as there are so many issues with ipads as the only textbook interface for schools: here is a short list off of the top of my head:

1: it forces everyone to go thru Apple ads the middle man, meaning that apple will ultimately set the pricing and terms, and this will restrict competition between publishers
2: it requires every kid to have a very expensive piece of gear that is somewhat fragile
3: LCD causes eye strain over time
4: its locked down, if a teacher wants to make a supplemental piece of media for a book or something, it has to go thru the itunes central clearing house and have a cert and whatnot like apps do...that is bad...
5:Its just apple...wheres the backup vendor, what happens if you want to move away from ipad when/if a better option comes out -- you have to re buy your books and stuff in a new format?
6:who sets and amnages the access controls? teh ipad is more than just a book reader, it has a full blown browser, email, access to a gazillion apps and itunes...so who sets the limits? school corps? parents?
6: what keeps kids fropm screwing around on imessage or facebook or something while class is going on? teacher sees everyone with their ipads on the desk but may not be able to see the screens -- at least with books, you knew what the pupils are looking at.
7: battery life - what if a kid forgets to charge his ipad over night? what if he kills teh battery watching a movie or something on the bus or at lunch time?
8: typing: one can assume that any school who rolls out ipads will also then elimenate a great number of computers in teh school...how then is a kid supposed to type up a long essay or something? is the school providing keyboards?
9: protection: would the students be required to have a pin code on the lock screen? would they even be allowed to? if so would there be an over ride for administrators, teachers, and parents to access the device if they need to check up on what little billy has been doing?
You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #62 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

Additionally I cant help but wonder what this will do to widen the economic divide...I would imagine that the richer school districts in upper crust yuppy suburbs will get this and inner city urban schools will be left with the scraps...and imagine if schools in bad neighborhoods get this, what will it do to crime? Not too many weeks ago there were stories in the press of people beating each other up and in one case I recall there was a death involved all over some $200 Nike tennis shoes...can you imagine the potential violence if thugs in the bad part of town knew that every kid on the school bus had an ipad that could be pawned for what? like $300 or more depending on options and stuff?

I really don't want to sound inappropriate but really it seems like no one is really looking at the entire scope of social evolution and possible division of classes here - we don't want to have a 2 class society, those with access to information and those without but this could lead to that if we as a whole society are not careful to include the least amongst us in this transformation...

Maybe it is an opportunity for someone like this:

Quote:
Andrew Carnegie

Born\tNovember 25, 1835 Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland, United Kingdom

Died\tAugust 11, 1919 (aged 83) Shadow Brook Lenox, Massachusetts, United States

Occupation\tBusiness magnate and philanthropist Net worth $298.3 billion in 2007 dollars,
according to List of wealthiest historical figures, based on information from Forbes February 2008.

Carnegie was born in Dunfermline, Scotland, and emigrated to the United States with his parents in 1848. His first job in the United States was as a factory worker in a bobbin factory. Later on he became a bill logger for the owner of the company. Soon after he became a messenger boy. Eventually he progressed up the ranks of a telegraph company. He built Pittsburgh's Carnegie Steel Company, which was later merged with Elbert H. Gary's Federal Steel Company and several smaller companies to create U.S. Steel. With the fortune he made from business among others he built Carnegie Hall, later he turned to philanthropy and interests in education, founding the Carnegie Corporation of New York, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Carnegie Institution of Washington, Carnegie Mellon University and the Carnegie Museums of Pittsburgh.

Carnegie gave most of his money to establish many libraries, schools, and universities in the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada and other countries, as well as a pension fund for former employees. He is often regarded as the second-richest man in history after John D. Rockefeller. Carnegie started as a telegrapher and by the 1860s had investments in railroads, railroad sleeping cars, bridges and oil derricks. He built further wealth as a bond salesman raising money for American enterprise in Europe.

He earned most of his fortune in the steel industry. In the 1870s, he founded the Carnegie Steel Company, a step which cemented his name as one of the "Captains of Industry". By the 1890s, the company was the largest and most profitable industrial enterprise in the world. Carnegie sold it in 1901 for $480 million to J.P. Morgan, who created U.S. Steel. Carnegie devoted the remainder of his life to large-scale philanthropy, with special emphasis on local libraries, world peace, education and scientific research. His life has often been referred to as a true "rags to riches" story.

Andrew Carnegie

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post #63 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

I am not against digital textbooks, or any sort of innovation like that, but I dont like the particulars of this scenario as there are so many issues with ipads as the only textbook interface for schools: here is a short list off of the top of my head:

1: it forces everyone to go thru Apple ads the middle man, meaning that apple will ultimately set the pricing and terms, and this will restrict competition between publishers
2: it requires every kid to have a very expensive piece of gear that is somewhat fragile
3: LCD causes eye strain over time
4: its locked down, if a teacher wants to make a supplemental piece of media for a book or something, it has to go thru the itunes central clearing house and have a cert and whatnot like apps do...that is bad...
5:Its just apple...wheres the backup vendor, what happens if you want to move away from ipad when/if a better option comes out -- you have to re buy your books and stuff in a new format?
6:who sets and amnages the access controls? teh ipad is more than just a book reader, it has a full blown browser, email, access to a gazillion apps and itunes...so who sets the limits? school corps? parents?
6: what keeps kids fropm screwing around on imessage or facebook or something while class is going on? teacher sees everyone with their ipads on the desk but may not be able to see the screens -- at least with books, you knew what the pupils are looking at.
7: battery life - what if a kid forgets to charge his ipad over night? what if he kills teh battery watching a movie or something on the bus or at lunch time?
8: typing: one can assume that any school who rolls out ipads will also then elimenate a great number of computers in teh school...how then is a kid supposed to type up a long essay or something? is the school providing keyboards?
9: protection: would the students be required to have a pin code on the lock screen? would they even be allowed to? if so would there be an over ride for administrators, teachers, and parents to access the device if they need to check up on what little billy has been doing?


Rather than address each issue -- I'll just pick one:

Quote:
4: its locked down, if a teacher wants to make a supplemental piece of media for a book or something, it has to go thru the itunes central clearing house and have a cert and whatnot like apps do...that is bad...

Actually, iBooks Author has several methods to share iBooks without going through the Apple Bookstore:

1) From the iBooks Author: Menu--->Share--->Send via Mail
--->iBooks Author for Mac
--->iBooks for iPad
--->PDF

If you receive an iBooks file on the iPad, you can open it with iBooks and it is accessible in your iBooks Library


2) From the iBooks Author: Menu--->Share--->Export
--->iBooks
--->PDF
--->Text

If you drag an iBooks file from your computer into iTunes, you can sync it to your iBooks Library on your iPads.


In either case there is no involvement with Apple and no lockdown.


It works rather nicely, nicely -- you really should try it with an open mind!

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"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
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post #64 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by diplication View Post

Although I believe the iPads helped, sometimes just observing the subjects, changes the behavior of the subjects. Was there a control group where nothing was changed? Was there a control group with a "placebo" pilot program? Without these, it's hard to say if the actual content of the program was responsible for causing any of the change.

Why not just read the Whitepaper. It's only 7 pages of content and 1 page of endnotes.
post #65 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar View Post

Yeah Gene's attire and 'music' sure aren't my cup of tea either but I'm sure his mother is quite happy in her multi-million dollar mansion, as is he in his. (But I do appreciate the tongue-in-cheek.)

reading the text you quoted I would say its more tongue in knee...
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post #66 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2992 View Post

"Students' math scores jumped 20% with iPad textbooks" = BS!

Earlier study shows iPad increased Student's Retention by 25%

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/STUDY-....html?x=0&.v=1

As the evidence mounts that the iPad significantly improves students' performance so parents, teachers, education authorities and governments, will increasing make sure that iPads are made available to students so that they are not disadvantaged!
.

This is a huge market for the iPad and iBook textbooks - globally over 2 billion people under 25!
post #67 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar View Post

Yeah Gene's attire and 'music' sure aren't my cup of tea either but I'm sure his mother is quite happy in her multi-million dollar mansion, as is he in his. (But I do appreciate the tongue-in-cheek.)

Don't you mean tongue dangling well outside of cheek?
post #68 of 73
People criticizing this Apple initiative or questioning its potential may do well to remember this is a first step. Do you arrive at a perfect solution on your first try? For gossakes, instead of dwelling of limitations and potential pitfalls, ponder the possibilities. That's how revolution starts.
post #69 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Maybe it is an opportunity for someone like this:



Andrew Carnegie


And every HS football player has the potential to be an NFL all-star
post #70 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

Quality is hugely important. The difference between a good teacher and a bad teacher makes a world of difference. But it is an oversimplification to blame teachers. If our teachers had half the class sizes, with more backup for 'difficult' (in the broadest sense) kids, better (more) training and better tools, I am pretty certain we would magically see a higher percentage of teachers being classed as good teachers. 'Teachers' is also a very general term, there are many auxiliary staff at schools that all contribute. A good principal makes perhaps the biggest difference, also.

I would add to this two things - a change in curriculum and a change in parents attitudes. The curriculum/teaching methodology is the same as it was 50 years ago. Using more technology is a start but it's how they use it that is important.

Parents today...geesh. I've talked to many teachers and one of their biggest complaints is that they can not get creative with their teaching because parents will object. One of my friends had a student teacher, who was a male, and he decided that when someone acted up they would have to do 10 pushups. Parents came in outraged! How dare he subject them to 15-30 seconds of exercise and HUMILIATE them in front of the class! So, of course, the principle caved and now the kids do whatever they want.

iPod, iPad, iPad2, iPad 3, iPad Mini, iPhone, iPhone 3GS, iPhone 4, iPhone 4S, iPhone 5, AppleTV (1,2 & 3), 13" MacBook Pro, 24" Cinema Display, Time Capsule, 21.5" iMac (Mid 2011)

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post #71 of 73
I was thinking to myself today...as I often do ...that if we ever got to a phase where textbooks were gone, how might a school manage that? If a grade school student loses a book, it's around $50 to replace. If they lose an iPad...$500. If a student were to damage a page in a book, well, the rest of it is still fine. Damage the screen to the iPad and the whole thing is ruined.

I think some would say the cost of the iPad is offset by the fact that only one or two students will lose it and the school system would be saving tons of money off the decreased cost of iBooks compared to physical books. However, don't you think once publishers have a captive audience that depends on iBooks they will start to raise the prices significantly? $14.99 suddenly becoming $39.99? Of course, with iBooks there are fewer barriers to entry for authors and one could argue that the increased competition will keep prices lower. I guess only time will tell!

iPod, iPad, iPad2, iPad 3, iPad Mini, iPhone, iPhone 3GS, iPhone 4, iPhone 4S, iPhone 5, AppleTV (1,2 & 3), 13" MacBook Pro, 24" Cinema Display, Time Capsule, 21.5" iMac (Mid 2011)

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post #72 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneaburns View Post

I was thinking to myself today...as I often do ...that if we ever got to a phase where textbooks were gone, how might a school manage that? If a grade school student loses a book, it's around $50 to replace. If they lose an iPad...$500. If a student were to damage a page in a book, well, the rest of it is still fine.

If you tear out a content page in a textbook, they'll have to replace the whole textbook.
post #73 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by sessamoid View Post

If you tear out a content page in a textbook, they'll have to replace the whole textbook.

I'm talking if you scratch it, write on it, etc.

iPod, iPad, iPad2, iPad 3, iPad Mini, iPhone, iPhone 3GS, iPhone 4, iPhone 4S, iPhone 5, AppleTV (1,2 & 3), 13" MacBook Pro, 24" Cinema Display, Time Capsule, 21.5" iMac (Mid 2011)

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