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Bill Gates discusses Steve Jobs, Apple's iBooks & the future of education - Page 2

post #41 of 73
1/25/12 at 11:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

Jobs would never have left his company adrift and taking on water -- to retire! -- for any reason, no matter how philanthropic.

True that, because he did not believe in philanthropy. But really, castigating Gates for *abandoning* Microsoft is silly? What if he had stayed on and the company tanked worse that it has, would you be accusing him of staying on too long?

Furthermore, what he is doing more is many magnitudes more significant than what Microsoft and Apple do, combined.
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post #42 of 73
1/25/12 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Me View Post

I agree completely. Steve Jobs lived a simply life in a middle-class neighborhood. He worked to the very end. Jobs died doing what he loved. I hope that the same can be said of me after I am gone.

I agree in principle (that Jobs enjoyed a simple life). But his family home is not in the typical ordinary middle-class neighbourhood.
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post #43 of 73
1/25/12 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSmith View Post

The other thing to keep in mind about Bill Gates, he's also partially engaged in a legacy cleansing exercise. In his days running Microsoft he accumulated a lot of very unpleasant baggage in terms of his business practices. Now he's whitewashing that in the public eye.

That's entirely your opinion, based on the assumption that he agrees with you that his legacy is questionable. But what you see as unpleasant (and I agree with you to some extent), he probably considered as smart business practices. Ergo, the assumption that he is cleansing his legacy is baseless. Why not just judge his foundation actions for what they are - saving lives, and altering the future of multiple cultures and millions of people, rather than attributing a presumptive motive just because you don't like him?
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post #44 of 73
1/25/12 at 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Me View Post

This is exactly correct. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation was founded in the shadow of the U. S. Government's antitrust trial of Microsoft. Gates needed to change the narrative.

Sorry, but this is revisionist history. The Gates Foundation was founded in 1994, a few years before the DOJ filed actions against Microsoft.

It's ok if you don't like him, but there's no need to distort history to back up your sentiments. It's very simple - he is dislikable man who is doing humanitarian work on a hitherto unseen scale. Diss the man, not his entire life's work.
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post #45 of 73
1/25/12 at 11:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by See Flat View Post

the feed is stereo, Gates is on left speaker and Bill Weir is on right speaker.

Check your system.

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post #46 of 73
1/25/12 at 11:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

Actually, good old Bill is working quite hard. He is very active in his BMGF work. Very.

His main job is writing checks. I really don't think he is telling the scientists working on a cure for malaria how to do their job or reviewing their work. That leaves him with lots of spare time to enjoy a life of leisure.

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post #47 of 73
1/25/12 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I agree and I suspect his personal beliefs had a lot to do with that, I am meaning spiritually. Being an atheist myself I do find his belief system worth reading more about, it seems to have made Steve an exceptional human being.

Same here, but holding back on the "atheist" part. Not that I have any truck whatsoever with the Indo-European/Abrahamic patriarchal war/mountain/storm god.

But the Be Here Now version of spirituality discovered by Leary, Alpert and Metzner in the 60s, and Huxley and Watts in the 50s, this is the deep insight into reality that Jobs partook of, as Isaacson repeatedly tells us, that goes a ways toward explaining him. Not entirely, of course, one would have had to hung out with him. And then no one can really be "explained" anyway.

If you find out anything, I hope you'll let us know. I'd like to find out about the Zen master he was studying with for awhile, was it the 90s? (I can't look it up right now.) My general sense of the Jobsian worldview is that he had Blake's vision: If the Doors of Perception are cleansed, we will see the world as it is, infinite. There's a need to share that insight if you are given it, which is why Huxley titled his book with that phrase.

Anyway, we're a long way from Bill Gates' vision, but bless him for being friends with Steve to the end, and what's more having a good time talking with him.
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post #48 of 73
1/25/12 at 11:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by shompa View Post

Bill philanthropy work is great. I respect that he is one of the few rich people who understand that they won't take the money with them into the grave.

But.

Bill stole this money from us, the consumer. MSFT have been guilty for many illegal things to make their monopoly on the PC market. MSFT is a fun company that never have succeeded at anything that they have competition on. Still today 94% of their profit is from Windows and Office.

People who work with IT knows how it is to deal with MSFT and their Select Agreement.

Home users: If I want to buy a PC from any company beside Apple, I am forced to use Windows. But windows users are so uneducated that they believe that they have an "open" platform and Appel is a "closed" platform.
Apple follows open standards like HTML5, H264 and OpenGL. MSFT uses their non standard HTML browser, WMV, Silverlight and DirectX. If you are a gamer you are forced to use MSFT since they have DirectX. But the users believe that they are free to choose since its an open standard.

Isn't it strange that Windows Ultimate costs 300 dollars and OSX ultimate costs 29 dollar? MSFT Office costs 300-500 dollars and Pages/Keynote/Numbers cost 10 dollar each?

For most companies its cheaper to buy an iPad + Apple office, then buying MSFT Office.

So.. Great that Bill gives money, but he is a thief.

Don't call MSFT thieves, nobody forced you or anyone else to buy from MSFT. There was and will always be alternatives (Apple, Linux...) .Using your flawed logic every company is robbing you blind.
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
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Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
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post #49 of 73
1/25/12 at 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

His main job is writing checks. I really don't think he is telling the scientists working on a cure for malaria how to do their job or reviewing their work. That leaves him with lots of spare time to enjoy a life of leisure.

He is no more just writing checks now than he once was at Microsoft. Did Steve Jobs just write checks and condescending emails to random customers?

If you don't believe Gates just wrote checks at Microsoft, then ask yourself why a man who was so intellectually occupied would stop being active? That rarely happens.

Furthermore, in reality, he has already written the important checks (the major endowments have been ... endowed).

If you don't like him, that's fine. I don't either. But I don't need to add speculations and assumptions to compound my dislike, and to convince myself there's nothing at all good about the man.
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post #50 of 73
1/25/12 at 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

He does a lot more than writing checks. I don't think you know how the BMGF (or any large NGO, for that matter) operates.

If you don't him, that's fine. I don't either. But I don't need to add speculations and assumptions to compound my dislike, and to convince myself there's nothing at all good about the man.

What gave you the impression I did not like him? I like him fine. And I do have quite a bit of experience with NGOs in third world countries as it has been a personal involvement of mine since 1999 working in Latin America a couple times a year.

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post #51 of 73
1/25/12 at 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

True that, because he did not believe in philanthropy. But really, castigating Gates for *abandoning* Microsoft is silly? What if he had stayed on and the company tanked worse that it has, would you be accusing him of staying on too long?

Furthermore, what he is doing more is many magnitudes more significant than what Microsoft and Apple do, combined.

It's true I have no way of knowing if Bill would be doing better for the company by staying. I'm drawing a distinction between the two.

For Jobs, putting Apple in shape to live on after him would be the highest philanthropy. He really was changing the world by putting desirable knowledge machines in everybody's pocket.

Erasing ignorance will go a long way toward eliminating colonialism, imperialism, racism and all the other causes of injustice and inequality, the roots of disease and hunger, in other words. (Proof of such social change through introduction of an "information technology" can be seen in the history of Europe before and after the appearance of the portable printed book.) For Jobs, building the company took all his time and was the greatest good.

I have no dislike of Gates, don't know him, and it's not the point. His retirement seems to show that he saw the company as nothing more than that. But Jobs might have said that Microsoft was a tremendous utilitarian sustainer of the world's knowledge industry, and it could always be made better rather than be allowed to drift into irrelevance.
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post #52 of 73
1/25/12 at 12:05pm
You live in a house like this...

http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/...iew/?service=1

...one of several, that is...you'd better be into philanthropy.
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post #53 of 73
1/25/12 at 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

What gave you the impression I did not like him? I like him fine. And I do have quite a bit of experience with NGOs in third world countries as it has been a personal involvement of mine since 1999 working in Latin America a couple times a year.

I removed my comment (before I saw your response above) about your lack of experience with NGOs because I have no way of knowing that, and shouldn't have written it in the first place. And I do not know whether you like or dislike anyone. So consider those comments of mine to be unfounded.

But I also do not understand why you make the unfounded assumption that he's living a leisurely life. Gates is quite involved with BMGF. And I'm not just referring to his travels. His talks, interviews, annual letters, etc. all reflect significant investment in learning the problems he's tackling, and an active role in formulating solutions. Furthermore, BMGF is operated very much like a business. Many people joke that it feels like dealing with Microsoft.

Indeed, he no longer has to worry about increasing operating profits annually. And, if BMGF never succeeds in attaining any of their goals, no one would blame him because he is honestly trying. So yeah, perhaps the stress is not the same as before. But that's a long distance from a leisurely life.
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post #54 of 73
1/25/12 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by oomu View Post

for any geeks/computers enthusiast from the 80s/90s, it's very hard to forgot the hate for Microsoft

very hard, I assure you.

I'm joking but it's like I have sometimes to take pills to not hate MS for 80s old stuff...

there are so many stories, so many, too much. so many wasted opportunities for greater products and better computers because of Microsoft. You could write books and of course many books was made about these years.

So please, understand old geezers. Take that like old fantasy stories of an old time by traumatized ones, it will amuse you in a good way and it's also one reason why that industry is so fun : there are real passion, since many years.

The passion is still burning. you can think it's just blindness, but you will loose something.

Yes, Microsoft was one of the few companies ever found guilty of anti-trust violations. They were a different company today than yesterday. Much like Google does today, it'd crush the competition not by competing on the merits, but by using its dominant position with Windows and Office to kill competitors like Netscape.

Moreover, it is great Gates is encouraging philanthropy, but sometimes he using the charitable giving to benefit Microsoft. For instance, the Gates foundation often gives Microsoft related PC products, which entrenches Microsoft in emerging markets. I also wonder who will own the patents for the drugs his money helps create. I hope Gates takes the model of Jonas Salk and gives any vaccines developed away.
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post #55 of 73
1/25/12 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PBRSTREETG View Post

I would say being entertained by sports qualifies for the dullard cap.

I would say this comment qualifies one for the elitist cap. :-)
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post #56 of 73
1/25/12 at 12:59pm
I think people here are not giving bill gates any credit. Microsoft did all of its innovations in the business sector. Apple just does it in the home sector. So while in many ways they are similiar they are different in others.

Why do you think bill gates and steve jobs liked each other outside of work and were able to talk to each other?

There is a reason why apple is dropping a lot of its business to focus on its home products.

Microsofts problem in the early days was that it spent to much of its time catering towards businesses and not in its home.

Bill Gates did a lot for how businesses use their machines. Apple did it for Home users.
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post #57 of 73
1/25/12 at 1:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

I strongly disagree that Gates qualifies as "visionary" of any kind and I think there is a mountain of evidence to support that view.

Agree about Balmer though. He is practically the textbook example of what used to be called a "dullard." The man has zero imagination and is entertained by things like sports and dancing girls not intellectual or artistic pursuits.

If he hadn't been dragged along by his friendship to Gates, he'd probably be a refrigerator repair man or a delivery guy or something.

So you are saying that people who enjoy sports are somehow less intelligent than those that do not? That's pretty pretentious. I am a huge sports fan, but also enjoy technology, music, broadway theater.

Don't assume people who like or play sports are dumb, it makes you look like the very uneducated person you are insulting. Sports teach us a lot of very valuable life lessons: working with others toward a common goal, calmness under pressure, honoring and respecting your competition, respecting authority, how to deal with, learn, and bounce back from failure, etc. I would argue sports are some of the greatest things to get children involved in, as it will set them up for a lot of positive things in the future.
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post #58 of 73
1/25/12 at 1:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by majortom1981 View Post

I think people here are not giving bill gates any credit. Microsoft did all of its innovations in the business sector. Apple just does it in the home sector. So while in many ways they are similiar they are different in others.

Why do you think bill gates and steve jobs liked each other outside of work and were able to talk to each other?

There is a reason why apple is dropping a lot of its business to focus on its home products.

Microsofts problem in the early days was that it spent to much of its time catering towards businesses and not in its home.

Bill Gates did a lot for how businesses use their machines. Apple did it for Home users.

The distinction I see is that Gates and Microsoft became dominant through brilliant business practices, not product innovation. Both are respectable depending on context and audience.

Given Microsoft's budget and market position, the amount of innovation it spurred is actually astonishingly low. It succeeded despite the lack of innovation. Gates is a technological and business genius. But this is something entirely different than being an innovator.
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post #59 of 73
1/25/12 at 1:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

The distinction I see is that Gates and Microsoft became dominant through brilliant business practices, not product innovation. Both are respectable depending on context and audience.

Given Microsoft's budget and market position, the amount of innovation it spurred is actually astonishingly low. It succeeded despite the lack of innovation. Gates is a technological and business genius. But this is something entirely different than being an innovator.

Prior to Steve's return Apple was not very innovative either. When your users are just a bunch of solo freelance hippie artists you can get away with tossing everything out the window and starting over. And while you are at it why not tell all the developers to throw away their programming language as well just for a good measure.

With Microsoft they had to advance the features of their OS yet maintain backwards compatibility for decades of legacy business customers instead of telling them they had to throw away their custom applications and interdependent hardware compatibility requirements. You can still run DOS applications today and believe it or not many people do. Good luck trying to use a CDROM with Mac OS files on it. The file naming convention that the non technical artists were using at the time would be enough by itself to crash a new Mac OS X machine. let alone the disk format issues.

Windows is a pretty good operating system regardless of how irrationally some Mac users may describe it.

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post #60 of 73
1/25/12 at 1:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post


Let's see, if you're saying MS Office costs $300-500, then any way you cut it, that would be cheaper than the $499 minimum iPad cost + $30 Apple office apps. So how is Apple cheaper?

You must also add in the cost of a cheap PC. MS Office on its own only serves as a drink coaster and/or paper weight. A frisbee, perhaps.
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post #61 of 73
1/25/12 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrodri View Post

I would say this comment qualifies one for the elitist cap. :-)

I'll take that comment back, it was stupid and I admit it. I like motorsports, cycling, wintersports and watching ladies anything sports. I just don't follow everything going on with a particular sport, I am far too busy working on other things.
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post #62 of 73
1/25/12 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

Don't call MSFT thieves, nobody forced you or anyone else to buy from MSFT. There was and will always be alternatives (Apple, Linux...) .Using your flawed logic every company is robbing you blind.

Actually they did, sure you had the option to install Linux or an alternative on the PC you bought but getting a refund for the unused Windows it came pre-installed with was an epic task with many hurdles to overcome.

Then look into the background of why OEM's were pre-installing Windows in the first place.

Just one of many bad things Microsoft did.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #63 of 73
1/25/12 at 2:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

I wasn't clear. I just meant that if one is not interested in anything else as well, then you one would be a dullard. Not that liking those things alone made someone a dullard.

A dullard is someone who has no "life of the mind" and wallows in sensorial experience alone.

If you mean "life of the mind" as someone who is an idiot, stupid etc., then maybe you're right, but I don't think Ballmer is stupid. He is far from being stupid in intelligence. Maybe he acts like an idiot but stupid, he is not. The problem here is you add your morality to the definition. He [and wallows in sensorial experience alone] is your interpretation. This reflects more on you than Ballmer.
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post #64 of 73
1/25/12 at 3:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Prior to Steve's return Apple was not very innovative either. When your users are just a bunch of solo freelance hippie artists you can get away with tossing everything out the window and starting over. And while you are at it why not tell all the developers to throw away their programming language as well just for a good measure.

With Microsoft they had to advance the features of their OS yet maintain backwards compatibility for decades of legacy business customers instead of telling them they had to throw away their custom applications and interdependent hardware compatibility requirements. You can still run DOS applications today and believe it or not many people do. Good luck trying to use a CDROM with Mac OS files on it. The file naming convention that the non technical artists were using at the time would be enough by itself to crash a new Mac OS X machine. let alone the disk format issues.

Windows is a pretty good operating system regardless of how irrationally some Mac users may describe it.

You're fixated on the platform zealotry thing. Because of that desire to defend or attack one platform or the other, you're arguing against points that were never made.

You quoted my post and then preceded to defend microsoft and attack apple, as if I had been doing the opposite. Note that my post said "Microsoft became dominant through brilliant business practices" and that " Gates is a technological and business genius".

My only negative assertion about MS was that their success wasn't based upon technological innovation. An arguable point certainly, but please, desktop OS zealotry as the response? I thought we got over that nonsense a decade ago. Haven't all the nerds who's self worth is tied to OS affiliation, moved onto arguing about mobile OSes? Apparently not.
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post #65 of 73
1/25/12 at 3:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

My only negative assertion about MS was that their success wasn't based upon technological innovation. An arguable point certainly, but please, desktop OS zealotry as the response? I thought we got over that nonsense a decade ago. Haven't all the nerds who's self worth is tied to OS affiliation, moved onto arguing about mobile OSes? Apparently not.

I'm not arguing which is a better OS, I clearly like Mac more. You said Microsoft didn't innovate which is an OS zealotry position if there ever was one. I defended MS only because their innovation is not as in your face as Apple's but no less difficult. Having the option to shit can the entire platform and start over may look innovative but MS did not have that option which makes whizz bang innovation less likely and under the hood type innovation more difficult, but no less impressive, in my opinion. Maybe I misunderstood not realizing that your remarks were just random derogatory jabs at MS. I thought you intended it to be a comparison to Apple being the true innovator and MS not very much, which is of course BS.

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post #66 of 73
1/25/12 at 4:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

You must also add in the cost of a cheap PC. MS Office on its own only serves as a drink coaster and/or paper weight. A frisbee, perhaps.

He was responding to:


Quote:
Originally Posted by shompa View Post

For most companies its cheaper to buy an iPad + Apple office, then buying MSFT Office.

So caliminius' statement is accurate:

Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

Let's see, if you're saying MS Office costs $300-500, then any way you cut it, that would be cheaper than the $499 minimum iPad cost + $30 Apple office apps. So how is Apple cheaper?

Now I suppose you will argue that buying a PC was implied?
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post #67 of 73
1/25/12 at 4:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I'm not arguing which is a better OS, I clearly like Mac more. You said Microsoft didn't innovate which is an OS zealotry position if there ever was one. I defended MS only because their innovation is not as in your face as Apple's but no less difficult. Having the option to shit can the entire platform and start over may look innovative but MS did not have that option which makes whizz bang innovation less likely and under the hood type innovation more difficult, but no less impressive, in my opinion. Maybe I misunderstood not realizing that your remarks were just random derogatory jabs at MS. I thought you intended it to be a comparison to Apple being the true innovator and MS not very much, which is of course BS.

You're still trying to make this into an all or nothing, praise or condem discussion. Because of that, you've read into my post an extremist position that was never actually asserted.
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post #68 of 73
1/25/12 at 5:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Those days are changing fast, if you are forced to use a PC now I am truly sorry but many, many companies are seeing the light as IT either lose their stranglehold or embrace iOS which is leading to OS X getting a fresh look. There is an IT revolution going on folks

You don't work in IT do you? I love Apple products. That said Apple has given the FINGER to corporations.

Our group of Mac users, about 30 out of 5000, not sit in their own OD domain. We tried like hell to get Lion Server (now on a Mini, on a tray, in a rack, in the server room) to play nicely with AD like our Leopard Xserve did. It never did, so we broke down the "golden triangle" and now they have double logins. Many....many....many other corporations are having the same issue....just read a few forums on the topic.

I am fine with Apple going pure consumer. I just need our few Mac users to understand that Apple does not care about them at work.
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post #69 of 73
1/26/12 at 12:34am
Any truth in that story about Apple products being banned in the Gates household? If that is true, then I think that does say a lot about Bill. I'm sure Steve would not ban Microsoft from his home, but he definitely would call it crap, convince whoever was using it that it was crap and then thrown it out!
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post #70 of 73
1/26/12 at 6:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BestKeptSecret View Post

Any truth in that story about Apple products being banned in the Gates household?

Yep, he said that himself.
PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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post #71 of 73
1/26/12 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by shompa View Post

After the IBM deal MSFT went out and bought Quick and dirty DOS and the worlds largest software company was created.

QDOS was a rip of CP/M and technically stolen. I believe MS later ended up paying royalties on it, though I don't think there is any indication they knew QDOS was a rip & the resulting MS-DOS was actually dramatically different.

What they did do is blatantly steal IP from Apple, which they later quietly settled with Apple on by giving them enough money to avoid bankruptcy. MS paid Apple that money under the guise that it was trying to keep a competitor in the market. In a way that was their true intent, though not because they are nice guys but because they were trying to buy themselves some credibility against monopoly charges.
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post #72 of 73
1/26/12 at 12:10pm
I am and have been a un-abashed Mac fanboy since high school...
so this interview make me feel a little weird because it is being done by the husband of my high school sweetheart... with Bill Gates (aka my mortal enemy for so many years), about Steve Jobs....my HERO for so same years....
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post #73 of 73
1/26/12 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bettieblue View Post

You don't work in IT do you? I love Apple products. That said Apple has given the FINGER to corporations.

Let me guess, .local AD domain? I love Apple's products & I abhor MS but I will say Apple has really dumped on the medium sized businesses with Lion. They have great solutions for fortune 500 & they have great solutions for small businesses but for us in the middle it's been like pulling teeth to get them to understand how stupid the changes they made to Lion were for a medium business environment. Snow Leopard was working great, then came Lion & Apple's forced upgrade model. I'd even be happy if they'd just support SL on current hardware for at least a year after an OS release, instead of surprising us with a refresh that drops SL support all together.
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