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Former executives accuse Apple of ignoring supplier labor abuses - Page 3

post #81 of 94
1/26/12 at 1:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

It's not about what is good or bad, but if they are better off or worse off. The latter can be quantified. Since they are not slaves who are forced to work they can leave so if they are worse off as a whole by having Foxconn providing jobs then no one would be working there. This is not a question about whether the Chinese labour laws or Chinese culture is good or bad.

It's not your question, but it's a question for a lot of people. The discussion here should be whether the working condition is good or bad, whether Apple should try to change it more forcefully, not whether those workers are 'better off' or not, because, again, being slightly better off from a terrible situation isn't really morally acceptable to a lot of people - maybe excluding you, but that's fine, you don't have to care, but a lot of people do.
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post #82 of 94
1/26/12 at 2:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Your inability to assemble an intelligent, cogent argument is noted.

First, the suicide rates are a red herring. Foxconn's suicide rates were LOWER than the country as a whole.

Second, you keep arguing that Apple is at fault - yet Apple is the only multinational to actually audit the suppliers and to try to make things better. Apple has a corporate responsibility book which suppliers are required to agree to - and then Apple audits them. HP doesn't. Dell doesn't. Toshiba doesn't.

Sure, you can bitch and moan all you want that Apple doesn't pay the lowliest employee a million dollars a year and buy them a 10,000 square foot home to live in. But that's not Apple's job - nor should it be.



Wrong. Apple is the only major multinational to have a corporate ethics guide - and to insist that its suppliers follow it.



So? What does that have to do with working conditions in China?



Really? You know for a fact that he never contributed to charity? Perhaps he simply made his donations anonymously. Plus, of course, his personal choice has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand.

Maybe you'll also comment on the fact that Newt Gingrich made millions last year and donated less than 3% to charity. Heck, I gave more than that when I was in college and working at minimum wage.



Neither of those claims is supported by evidence. And even if it were true, what does it have to do with working conditions in China?

It really amazes me what passes for a relevant argument in an Apple-basher's mind.


All you are trying to do is side step the issues at hand here.

Yes, AI even had an article written about Steve Job's encouraging his employees to contribute rather than himself. So yes its true (hard to swallow I know).

What surprises me is how Apple proponents can easily dismiss that part of the argument by focusing on something else.

That just tells me how people like yourself would rather not talk about that fact because it tarnishes your lofty respect for Apple.


What does it have to do with the working conditions in China?

Everything!

When the head of an organization dismisses charities as a hindrance to the companies objective, without giving regard to a corporation's corporate citizen duties in the communities and market that it serves, that just showcases the moral ground (or lack there of) that the company is standing on.

If the CEO could care less about little things like charities (something that Apple can directly control), he certainly wouldn't give a rats ass about working conditions in a third party OEM supplier (no direct control).

"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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post #83 of 94
1/26/12 at 2:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

why pay twice as much? 100 billion in the bank, why can't they make due with 80 billion in the bank? we are expected to pay more to keep their high profit margins in place.
they can shove the greed where the sun doesn't shine.

Envy sure becomes you, forgot you are a self made millionaire.
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post #84 of 94
1/26/12 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

we are expected to pay more to keep their high profit margins in place.

No you're not. Don't buy products from Apple in the future. If you don't like companies making profits from supplying good and services then you're screwed. If you don't like companies using China because the cost is lower then you're also screwed. You can start by getting rid of your computer and never buying any food that you didn't grow or raise. of course, you won't do any of that and you'll continue to keep buying Apple's and everyone else's products that are made in China.

"Blank! BLANK! You're not looking at the big picture!"

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"Blank! BLANK! You're not looking at the big picture!"

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post #85 of 94
1/26/12 at 3:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

No you're not. Don't buy products from Apple in the future. If you don't like companies making profits from supplying good and services then you're screwed. If you don't like companies using China because the cost is lower then you're also screwed. You can start by getting rid of your computer and never buying any food that you didn't grow or raise. of course, you won't do any of that and you'll continue to keep buying Apple's and everyone else's products that are made in China.

Another misconception, basically saying the only way for people to demand change is to walk away from the companies who did things not acceptable to them. In a civilized society, people are able to voice their concerns freely together and force companies to change based on social pressure, walking away is an extreme measure that doesn't have to be taken (and a lot of times not effective anyway because of free-rider problem).
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post #86 of 94
1/26/12 at 4:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nunyabinez View Post

In other breaking news, my ex wife thinks I'm a bastard.

Hmm ... why is it I feel sorry for you but not for Newt?

I admit to being a Fanatical Moderate. I Disdain the Inane. Vyizderzominymororzizazizdenderizorziz?

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I admit to being a Fanatical Moderate. I Disdain the Inane. Vyizderzominymororzizazizdenderizorziz?

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post #87 of 94
1/26/12 at 4:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanSolecki View Post

I love when macho forum-goers talk about how cowardly whistleblowers are for staying anonymous, while they post anonymously from there "AppleIzMuhJeZuZ" username. Yeah. You're super edgy.

The fact of the matter is Apple does business with companies that exploit humans, including children, for profit. You can be part of that group of people that tries to brush it off, but that makes you a coward. A person with the slightest shred of integrity would say, "This is a problem, and it doesn't matter if it is happening in China or Detroit, children should be protected."

But that line is a little too severe for ya, huh? Can't handle owning the fact that the imaginary border between here and there isn't, in fact, a magical portal where human suffering is suddenly cool if it pads a CEOs bonus by a few million? Are you really that bereft of decency?

Let not a single one of you enemies of humanity say that you're a man when you look yourself in the mirror tomorrow. A man has a sense of justice, and you clearly do not. You show it in all your shameless pandering to a corporation that doesn't give a flip about you and yours; one that would be glad to see you work yourself (literally) to death in a factory if they could figure out how stick you in one. You think corporate execs would cry their eyes out if it were kansas city instead of shengdu? Not bloody likely.

The correct way to approach an article like this, or any article similar to it, is to ask for policy changes from the government to prevent companies, en masse, from engaging in activities that are detrimental to humanity outside the imaginary box of our natural borders. If American capital can flow here and there without hinderance then our sense of dignity (if any sense is left) should be expected to go with it. Why, WHY is it only the responsibility of the chinese to care for chinese children??? Doesn't any man, and I mean a real man, the sort of person you have respect for, take offense to poaching on the helpless, no matter what time zone it takes place in?

I guess I'm not racist enough to really be an american, but I contend that all exploitation should be met with ample indignation, whether in the south where you dogs are from, or in china, or south africa, or anywhere else. You may be disgustingly stupid, but if this sort of thing were happening to you I would be just as offended... it's called decency... you should try it out some time.

Mr high horse rider.

What do you know about decency.

Have you gone for 5 days without food and if my kids work to bring food to the table why not. I have always encourage my children to do part time work to learn the importance of money yes I am greedy and a heartless dad because I want my children to work.

What do you called those 15 year old who sells crack and cocaine and what have you in schools?
Do you feel offended they have to push drugs in schools. And what are you doing about it

Yes look at yourself in the mirror before you tell other do so and called other stupid.

And what have you done for the poor, have you open your home to them, give them you whole paycheck.

Btw feeling offended does not make you a better man but do something about it will.

Please try not to feel too please about your indignation it is not helping you nor show what you are and saying you piece in a blog neither help.

Yes look at yourself in the mirror and try not to be disgusted at the image.
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post #88 of 94
1/26/12 at 4:27pm
Question. Is it not enough to like apple products? Must we fellate the.company too?
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post #89 of 94
1/26/12 at 4:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post

Must we fellate the.company too?

I hope you didn't get too excited thinking up that phrase.
We know where you are. We know where youve been. We can more or less know what youre thinking about. - Eric Schmidt
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We know where you are. We know where youve been. We can more or less know what youre thinking about. - Eric Schmidt
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post #90 of 94
1/26/12 at 4:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

I hope you didn't get too excited thinking up that phrase.

I use it all the time...even here.
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post #91 of 94
1/26/12 at 4:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post

I use it all the time...even here.

Scary...
We know where you are. We know where youve been. We can more or less know what youre thinking about. - Eric Schmidt
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We know where you are. We know where youve been. We can more or less know what youre thinking about. - Eric Schmidt
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post #92 of 94
1/26/12 at 4:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamC View Post

Mr high horse rider.

What do you know about decency.

Have you gone for 5 days without food and if my kids work to bring food to the table why not. I have always encourage my children to do part time work to learn the importance of money yes I am greedy and a heartless dad because I want my children to work.

What do you called those 15 year old who sells crack and cocaine and what have you in schools?
Do you feel offended they have to push drugs in schools. And what are you doing about it

Yes look at yourself in the mirror before you tell other do so and called other stupid.

And what have you done for the poor, have you open your home to them, give them you whole paycheck.

Btw feeling offended does not make you a better man but do something about it will.

Please try not to feel too please about your indignation it is not helping you nor show what you are and saying you piece in a blog neither help.

Yes look at yourself in the mirror and try not to be disgusted at the image.

I believe that Dean is on a very slippery slope (ie. what internet device does he use, what clothes does he wear, where does he live etc.) but, on the other hand, he could be a monk travelling the world, living on the goodness of others as he works to improve conditions throughout the world... but if he isn't that monk then I'd have to say that he is a hypocrite.
We know where you are. We know where youve been. We can more or less know what youre thinking about. - Eric Schmidt
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We know where you are. We know where youve been. We can more or less know what youre thinking about. - Eric Schmidt
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post #93 of 94
1/26/12 at 5:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Scary...

Self invented slang is scary?
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post #94 of 94
1/26/12 at 7:26pm
As an avowed fanboy and Apple stock holder, I think it's in my interest to propose a few solutions. Yeah, I know the problem is bigger than this, but how about we start here?

Apple needs to:

1) Increase margins to suppliers by 2% across the board, not to be spent on labor. The manufacturers feel squeezed and this is a good faith gesture.

2) Demand very specific improvements in facilities that directly impact the workers (positively, of course). You know, chairs with backs, better lighting, ergonomic work surfaces, better ventilation, etc. Fund 75% of the improvements, the rest coming from the manufacturers.

3) Double the living space per person in the Apple-associated dormitories and decrease the density by half, and pay for all of it.

4) Increase the pay for "our" workers by 20%, but do not under any circumstances allow overtime. Ever.

5) Demand that line workers be rotated every few hours to different jobs to eliminate or at least reduce repetitive motion injuries.

6) Hire American employees to inspect and audit all supplier facilities on a non-scheduled surprise basis. No advance notice. Rotate the inspectors into and out of China randomly to obviate the possibility of payoffs or collusion. (Yes, that requires training on this end.)

7) Reward managers and manufacturers that pass all audits and inspections. Give them incentives to stay "clean".

8) Increase prices on major Apple products by 25 dollars. (It will defray a bit of the cost of these improvements and symbolize the fact that we Apple users are willing to pay a bit more.)

9) Last, Apple needs to hold its corporate head high and say, "We're trying. Anybody else on board?"

I know, I know -- a hundred people will jump on me for being naive, but nothing will change until we consumers and fans (and Apple) demand change. We can't change the realities of the market place or the supply chain, no less the fact that America can't hope to ever bring these jobs back. But abuses can be mitigated if we demand it. There are solutions to be had if we "think different." Apple has the money now to make a difference in how business is conducted.

Any other ideas?

And, by the way, everybody -- leave the NYTimes out of it. They are the only ones left that are doing their job anymore, whether it's palatable or not. I say good for them.
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