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Tim Cook calls assault on Apple's ethics in China "patently false and offensive" - Page 4

post #121 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

OK, yes, there are some shallow comments, but I think you are being unfair in characterizing the overall discussion in those terms - this is not a black and white issue and good points are being made on both sides.

As I said, some are showing a concern and making good points but there are far more comments regarding the article, how awesome Cook is, ect.... ect.... speaks volumes. Whether I am fair or not is irrelevant, we are all just a bunch of clowns on a forum who know it all. Pointing out the facade.
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post #122 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Apple's high margin has nothing to do with this.

Of course it does. Apple achieves high margins by lowering the cost of manufacturing and forcing their manufacturers to accept impossibly low margins. (Walmart frequently does the same.) That forces the manufacturers to obtain the lowest-priced labor pool they can possible obtain and that forces the workers into poor conditions. It's very easy for Apple or any other such company to say, "well, they're not our workers and the manufacturer accepted the contract," but IMO, that's not good enough.

While it's not slave labor per se (the workers (or at least most of the workers) decided they wanted to work there), it's akin to the green grape pickers of the 1970s who also worked under abysmal conditions.

If the workers are actually treated well, as another poster above maintains, then I think Apple needs to do the appropriate communications to prove that.

Apple's products are luxury items that are marketed to people who have money. I'm not maintaining that the Chinese factory workers need to be treated to the same standards as western workers, since the standard of living is different. But they need to be treated with a minimum of decency - one that doesn't make us cringe at their condition.
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post #123 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

If I actually knew what you were babbeling on about I may be able to answer this.

If I'm babbling then you must be babbling because you are the one talking about hurt feelings.

So I had to ask if you ever had hurt feelings when reading this board but you decided to evade the question.

The conclusion being that I thought it a silly notion. The idea that someone has the power to hurt someone's feelings on a community forum seems absurd to me. The idea that someone actually believes they have the power to hurt someone's feeling on a community forum seems even more absurd to me, to the point of being absolutely ridiculous.
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post #124 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

Of course it does. Apple achieves high margins by lowering the cost of manufacturing and forcing their manufacturers to accept impossibly low margins. (Walmart frequently does the same.) That forces the manufacturers to obtain the lowest-priced labor pool they can possible obtain and that forces the workers into poor conditions. It's very easy for Apple or any other such company to say, "well, they're not our workers and the manufacturer accepted the contract," but IMO, that's not good enough.

While it's not slave labor per se (the workers (or at least most of the workers) decided they wanted to work there), it's akin to the green grape pickers of the 1970s who also worked under abysmal conditions.

If the workers are actually treated well, as another poster above maintains, then I think Apple needs to do the appropriate communications to prove that.

Apple's products are luxury items that are marketed to people who have money. I'm not maintaining that the Chinese factory workers need to be treated to the same standards as western workers, since the standard of living is different. But they need to be treated with a minimum of decency - one that doesn't make us cringe at their condition.

Also keep in mind Chinese factories are not subjected to the same strict environmental standards as many of US and other companies are. Because they do not have to spend millions and millions a year to maintain this standard they can manufacture even cheaper, pushing up Apple's margins even further.
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post #125 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

If I'm babbling then you must be babbling because you are the one talking about hurt feelings.

So I had to ask if you ever had hurt feelings when reading this board but you decided to evade the question.

The conclusion being that I thought it a silly notion. The idea that someone has the power to hurt someone's feelings on a community forum seems absurd to me. The idea that someone actually believes they have the power to hurt someone's feeling on a community forum seems even more absurd to me, to the point of being absolutely ridiculous.

Let me start a "I am glad Steve Jobs is dead" thread and you will see.
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post #126 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

Of course it does. Apple achieves high margins by lowering the cost of manufacturing and forcing their manufacturers to accept impossibly low margins. (Walmart frequently does the same.) That forces the manufacturers to obtain the lowest-priced labor pool they can possible obtain and that forces the workers into poor conditions. It's very easy for Apple or any other such company to say, "well, they're not our workers and the manufacturer accepted the contract," but IMO, that's not good enough.

While it's not slave labor per se (the workers (or at least most of the workers) decided they wanted to work there), it's akin to the green grape pickers of the 1970s who also worked under abysmal conditions.

If the workers are actually treated well, as another poster above maintains, then I think Apple needs to do the appropriate communications to prove that.

Apple's products are luxury items that are marketed to people who have money. I'm not maintaining that the Chinese factory workers need to be treated to the same standards as western workers, since the standard of living is different. But they need to be treated with a minimum of decency - one that doesn't make us cringe at their condition.

What!!???

How many tech manufacturers use Chinese labour to manufacture their goods. By the sounds of it some of them pay even less than the manufacturer of Apple products and also have worse conditions. They all have the same opportunity as Apple.

Apple's high margins are maintained by the quality of its goods and by the willingness of consumers to pay more (although paying more isn't such an issue these days).

Apple's high margins also come from its ability to buy huge stores of parts.

If every manufacturer, including Apple, was made to pay higher wages and to have better working conditions do you really think Apple's margins would change? did those margins change in the 80s and early 90s when Apple manufactured its products in the USA?
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post #127 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

Let me start a "I am glad Steve Jobs is dead" thread and you will see.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of the term "hurt feelings".

Hatred and anger are different emotions entirely.
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post #128 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

I think you misunderstand the meaning of the term "hurt feelings".

Hatred and anger are different emotions entirely.

Every now and then someone posts something that gves you a glimpse into their psyche. Hellacool's last comment gives us a glimpse into why we will never be able to understand his skewed points of view.

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post #129 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

I think you misunderstand the meaning of the term "hurt feelings".

Hatred and anger are different emotions entirely.

Emotions are emotions AKA feelings. If someone can easily be spun up based on forum comments they lead a sad life.
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post #130 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Every now and then someone posts something that gves you a glimpse into their psyche. Hellacool's last comment gives us a glimpse into why we will never be able to understand his skewed points of view.

He sounds almost exactly like another poster who showed little or no empathy towards others and at the same time seemed not to be able to differentiate between the various emotions shown by humans.

Oddly enough we were discussing the plight of another race at that time as well.
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post #131 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Every now and then someone posts something that gves you a glimpse into their psyche. Hellacool's last comment gives us a glimpse into why we will never be able to understand his skewed points of view.

I will take that as a compliment, status quo is not in my vocabulary. Band wagon jumping is for the weak.
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post #132 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

He sounds almost exactly like another poster who showed little or no empathy towards others and at the same time seemed not to be able to differentiate between the various emotions shown by humans.

Oddly enough we were discussing the plight of another race at that time as well.

At least I understand that the term feelings is a generic term for emotions. And my point still stands, the majority of posters here are showing feelings and empathy to Apple, a corporation and nothing to actual humans.
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post #133 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

Emotions are emotions AKA feelings. If someone can easily be spun up based on forum comments they lead a sad life.

You seem to be getting a little spun up yourself... why the upper case aka...
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post #134 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Every now and then someone posts something that gves you a glimpse into their psyche. Hellacool's last comment gives us a glimpse into why we will never be able to understand his skewed points of view.

I was just listening to "Science Friday" on NPR, a segment on wolf to dog evolution, and the scientist said that "dogs domesticated themselves" by hanging out with humans.

If only humans could domesticate themselves . . .
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post #135 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

I was just listening to "Science Friday" on NPR, a segment on wolf to dog evolution, and the scientist said that "dogs domesticated themselves" by hanging out with humans.

If only humans could domesticate themselves . . .

Thats easy, all you need are some iProducts, total disregard for anyone but yourself and worship the ground Steve Jobs walked on and you will then be considered domesticated. Slap on the collar and submit.
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post #136 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

At least I understand that the term feelings is a generic term for emotions. And my point still stands, the majority of posters here are showing feelings and empathy to Apple, a corporation and nothing to actual humans.

Yes it is but hurt is a different emotion/feeling than anger and hatred. The differences seem to be a foreign concept to you.

Hmmmm... now it's changed just to feelings... not hurt feelings...

... and I don't see a majority of people showing feelings and empathy to Apple, a corporation and nothing to actual humans. To the contrary I see very few, if any.

... and now back to regular programming.
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post #137 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

You seem to be getting a little spun up yourself... why the upper case aka...

It is an acronym, usually spelled with capitol letters to demonstrate that, helps the slow people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aka
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post #138 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

It is an acronym, usually spelled with capitol letters to demonstrate that, helps the slow people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aka

Yes, upper case if it's an acronym for the American Killfish Association.
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post #139 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Yes it is but hurt is a different emotion/feeling than anger and hatred. The differences seem to be a foreign concept to you.

Something which you also seem to fail to understand.

... and now back to regular programming.

I simply said hurt feelings, you tried to make it something else, failure seems not to be a foreign concept to you. Instead of actually having something useful to say, you attempt to take a simple concept, over analyze it, spell it out in nausea, regurgitate it back out in terms you can understand then attempt to show how smart you are. Do you pat yourself on the back often?
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post #140 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

I simply said hurt feelings, you tried to make it something else, failure seems not to be a foreign concept to you. Instead of actually having something useful to say, you attempt to take a simple concept, over analyze it, spell it out in nausea, regurgitate it back out in terms you can understand then attempt to show how smart you are. Do you pat yourself on the back often?

Pot kettle, pal.
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post #141 of 181
1/27/12 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Yes, upper case if it's an acronym for the American Killfish Association.

We established you can read, step one complete.
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post #142 of 181
1/27/12 at 1:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

Thats easy, all you need are some iProducts, total disregard for anyone but yourself and worship the ground Steve Jobs walked on and you will then be considered domesticated. Slap on the collar and submit.

You're like slapppy in your anti-Apple nonsense, but without the humor.

"So just outright detestable."

Yes, basically.
PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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post #143 of 181
1/27/12 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

You're like slapppy in your anti-Apple nonsense, but without the humor.

"So just outright detestable."

Yes, basically.

I like Apple, it is the blind ignorance I do not. What is more detestable, someone that dislikes a product or someone that dislikes a person that dislikes a product? Your statement just solidified my whole argument.
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post #144 of 181
1/27/12 at 1:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

He is. Same IP address as ConradJoe's last posts. Now will you agree with me that he's a dupe account, other mods? We have an outside opinion now.

It was that particular post that made me look at his join date and post frequency. "Flak" is C J type of word, and the sneering tone and contrariness are also unmistakable. Previously I'd just wondered about this schizoid poster with the dopey name. All over the place, sometimes Apple fan, other times gratuitously negative, just like ol' C J.

What do you mean by "dupe"? That he's a duplicate, or that he is duping the forum?
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post #145 of 181
1/27/12 at 1:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

I like Apple, it is the blind ignorance I do not. What is more detestable, someone that dislikes a product or someone that dislikes a person that dislikes a product? Your statement just solidified my whole argument.

Yeah... I hate blind ignorance as well.
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post #146 of 181
1/27/12 at 1:34pm
Apple is being targeted for being the best and the most profitable and successful tech company in the world.

Accidents in manufacturing are imminent. A few accidents in a work force of a million people, I would say that is well done.

I wonder if somebody brings up the accidents in the factories run by any company producing parts for Samsung, Dell, HP etc. They would definitely be higher.

I am sure that the standards followed at Apple suppliers are the best in the industry and in the best interest of the workers, just like Apple is the best in design, supply chain, technology, legal team, environment friendliness, marketing, sales and a few hundred other things.
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post #147 of 181
1/27/12 at 1:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOROM View Post

If Brazil can force Apple to manufacture all the iPads and iPhones sold in Brazil in Brazil, creating lots of manufacturing jobs, surely a powerful country like USA (with the biggest consumer sector in the world) could do so. But we don't.

Argentina.

Total foreign affairs fail.

It sums up the rest of the ignorance in your post.

Reality check, it is common among workers to save and pay the education costs of their children, often the money sent "home" is put towards this purpose.

The children of the current Foxconn workers will be tomorrow's more highly educated and more highly paid workers, in much the same way as has happened with waves of immigrants to the US (and other "western" countries).

It's a very human thing.

Moving production and shutting down these factories is no solution.

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post #148 of 181
1/27/12 at 2:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter View Post

Professional.
Assertive.
Eloquent.
Direct.
Open.
Jobs.

While I read through Tim's email....those are the words that came to mind.

As a consumer and shareholder I am more than happy with Tim's statement and his style of handling the hubbub. Very Apple and very Jobs-like, which is why I saved it for the last word in my list.

I concur
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post #149 of 181
1/27/12 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

Thats easy, all you need are any typical products found on US store shelves, total disregard for where they came from, an expectation that the price will remain low enough to easily afford and you will then be considered domesticated. Slap on the collar and submit.

Edited it to expand the scope of this "problem" and present it in a nutshell.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #150 of 181
1/27/12 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerk36 View Post

Back in the early part of the 20th century workers in the US were mistreated until they formed unions. Of course the unions became corrupt and problems arose from that as well. But the workers got better treatment. Maybe what the workers need in these factories is a union. Probably won't happen any ways.

Unions in China? About as likely as unions at Walmart, for the same reasons.

It's the job of government to protect people of modest means from the rapacious rich, and when government fails, sweatshops become the norm.
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post #151 of 181
1/27/12 at 3:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

I was just listening to "Science Friday" on NPR, a segment on wolf to dog evolution, and the scientist said that "dogs domesticated themselves" by hanging out with humans.

If only humans could domesticate themselves . . .

There is a really great NOVA episode on canine domestication that discusses that. I highly recommend it.

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post #152 of 181
1/27/12 at 4:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

It is an acronym, usually spelled with capitol letters to demonstrate that, helps the slow people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aka

You got two things wrong here that you should inherently know if English is your first language and you are old enough to vote. Since you couldn't figure out how to use the dictionary before posting I've been kind enough to supply them for you.
aka |ˌeɪ ˌkeɪ ˈeɪ|
abbreviation
also known as: John Merrick, aka the Elephant Man.

acronym |ˈækrəˌnɪm|
noun
an abbreviation formed from the initial letters of other words and pronounced as a word (e.g., ASCII, NASA).

initialism |ɪˈnɪʃəˌlɪzəm|
noun
an abbreviation consisting of initial letters pronounced separately (e.g., CPU).

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post #153 of 181
1/27/12 at 5:24pm
I love how the apologists are deflecting blame away from Apple by bringing in Samsung with oblique tangents.


Let's just accept the reality that China doesn't recognize worker's rights to the level we do and that Apple shouldn't be expected to do so otherwise. We can reshape the rhetoric and just say that Apple is no worse than the rest of the industry. Bringing in Samsung and make references to "smooth sales" doesn't really add much to the discussion beyond revealing deep-seated insecurities and denial. We all know that electronics, if not assembled in China using cheap labor, would be more expensive many times over if we were to transfer our assembly lines elsewhere. There's no point in trying to skip around the topic.
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post #154 of 181
1/27/12 at 5:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

The sad fact is that Apple will continue to take the heat for China's actions for one simple reason. Mentioning Apple guarantees attention.
Ignore the fact that they're doing far more than any other manufacturer to monitor the workers' conditions, they will continue to be the whipping boy because it guarantees hits.

Pretty simple.


Yes, that's the price of being one of the most well-known brands worldwide. You get the brunt of the blame, even when the attacks are inaccurate and not really grounded in reality. The media is always going to hunt for something to attack as it drives sales through negativity.
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post #155 of 181
1/27/12 at 5:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gaurav_1711 View Post

I am sure that the standards followed at Apple suppliers are the best in the industry and in the best interest of the workers, just like Apple is the best in design, supply chain, technology, legal team, environment friendliness, marketing, sales and a few hundred other things.


Why not just say Apple is the best at everything including stuff they don't even make?
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post #156 of 181
1/27/12 at 5:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

You got two things wrong here that you should inherently know if English is your first language and you are old enough to vote. Since you couldn't figure out how to use the dictionary before posting I've been kind enough to supply them for you.
aka |ˌeɪ ˌkeɪ ˈeɪ|
abbreviation
also known as: John Merrick, aka the Elephant Man.

acronym |ˈækrəˌnɪm|
noun
an abbreviation formed from the initial letters of other words and pronounced as a word (e.g., ASCII, NASA).

initialism |ɪˈnɪʃəˌlɪzəm|
noun
an abbreviation consisting of initial letters pronounced separately (e.g., CPU).

Ahhhhh, did you get your feelings hurt? So much that you took time out of your day to post this wonderful English lesson? So much that you could think of nothing to rebut my argument so you have to try and belittle me in an attempt to make yourself feel better? I have a tissue if you need it. I wish they made an emoticon for weak and sad.
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post #157 of 181
1/27/12 at 5:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack99 View Post

I love how the apologists are deflecting blame away from Apple by bringing in Samsung with oblique tangents.


Let's just accept the reality that China doesn't recognize worker's rights to the level we do and that Apple shouldn't be expected to do so otherwise. We can reshape the rhetoric and just say that Apple is no worse than the rest of the industry. Bringing in Samsung and make references to "smooth sales" doesn't really add much to the discussion beyond revealing deep-seated insecurities and denial. We all know that electronics, if not assembled in China using cheap labor, would be more expensive many times over if we were to transfer our assembly lines elsewhere. There's no point in trying to skip around the topic.

Exactly, you would think since Apple is an industry leader they would set the example but they have proven time and again, bottom line is all that is important to them. I will still buy their stuff regardless, I am shallow like the rest.
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post #158 of 181
1/27/12 at 6:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

Ahhhhh, did you get your feelings hurt? So much that you took time out of your day to post this wonderful English lesson? So much that you could think of nothing to rebut my argument so you have to try and belittle me in an attempt to make yourself feel better? I have a tissue if you need it. I wish they made an emoticon for weak and sad.

I help you make your posts sound more intelligent and you make ad hominem personal attacks calling me weak and sad. Not only are your posts sounding desperate but you are treading on dangerous ground. You might want to curb your attacks on forum members or you could find yourself having to use yet another email address to join this forum.

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post #159 of 181
1/27/12 at 6:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I help you make your posts sound more intelligent and you make ad hominem personal attacks calling me weak and sad. Not only are your posts sounding desperate but you are treading on dangerous ground. You might to curb your attacks on forum members or you'll be having to use yet another email address to join this forum.

Ahhhhh, how cute, IM TELLING! Enlighten me what other email addresses I may have used? Oh, I get it, in the whopping two months you have been a forum member, I must have been someone that was booted, went back into time to create this account 2 years before you got here and am now using it all in an effort to thwart you. Good observation, you are a tricky one.
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post #160 of 181
1/27/12 at 6:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I help you make your posts sound more intelligent and you make ad hominem personal attacks calling me weak and sad. Not only are your posts sounding desperate but you are treading on dangerous ground. You might want to curb your attacks on forum members or you could find yourself having to use yet another email address to join this forum.

Hellacool can taunt, troll, belittle, be as unpleasant as hell... do whatever the hell he wants as long as he tiptoes around that ever so precious ad hominem line... and never be touched by the mods.
We know where you are. We know where youve been. We can more or less know what youre thinking about. - Eric Schmidt
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