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Tim Cook calls assault on Apple's ethics in China "patently false and offensive" - Page 5

post #161 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

...in the whopping two months you have been a forum member [...[ Good observation, you are a tricky one.

How adorable. Speaking of "good observation" I wonder if I'll ever be so oblivious to my surroundings that I won't recognize such simple things as well worn usernames on an internet forum I frequent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Hellacool can taunt, troll, belittle, be as unpleasant as hell... do whatever the hell he wants as long as he tiptoes around that ever so precious ad hominem line... and never be touched by the mods.

That's perfectly fine if he can pull it off, but making personal attacks and then claiming that others are attacking you while trying to sounds like a victim is just cowardly and pathetic. We already have DaHarder doing that so we really don't need another.

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

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post #162 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack99 View Post

I love how the apologists are deflecting blame away from Apple by bringing in Samsung with oblique tangents.


One can go off on a tangent. But can one bring something in with a tangent? And what the hell is an oblique tangent? This sounds like a case of geometric metaphors gone wrong.
post #163 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

It's because apple is the top dog. America loves when an underdog becomes top dog but at the same time loves to knock down the top dog a few rungs. Just because the media doesn't report incidents at HP, Samsung, Dell plants doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Nike was a similar target a number of years ago, even though they were not the only company directly or indirectly using child labor.
post #164 of 181
here is a quote from a reader in response to the NY Times expose of Foxcom. " In stark contrast to its counterculture origins, Apple seems to have evolved into the embodiment of everything it once despised a greedy, callous, ruthless behemoth beholden only to fund managers who demand incremental profits every quarter at any cost."

The problem with Apple and the whole tec industry in general has been a race to the bottom. This all started with Dell and HP moving their manufacturing to China back in 2001 so they could make cheaper boxes. Apple closed its manufacturing here in the US around that time. remember when your apple computer said it was made in texas or CA.
The chinese government subsidizes the workers Foxcom uses, they train them and pay them so apple gets "free engineers ". who can blame them for going along with everyone else in using the chinese gulag system. its just another version of the forced labor system just people get paid so it looks nicer. Slaves were treated that way also. (feed and housed) Look Apple does not have the balls to pull the plug. like everyone else, They will use this system of free cheap labor until an uprising occurs and they are forced to find another country that exploits poor people.
post #165 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by sternapples53 View Post

The problem with Apple [...] in general has been a race to the bottom.

I've officially heard everything now.

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

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post #166 of 181
I think America should stop interfering in the affairs of other countries when it cannot put its house in order. Americans tend to think that the US is the most transparent and democratic country in the whole universe. But the recent economic crisis exposed the reality that America has the most corrupt political democracy no different from the plutocracies of Third-world countries. The only thing America is good at is to sweep the dirt under the carpet until there is no place to hide when things begin to untangle. The varied problems that the US is facing are of its own making. Your politicians are the purveyors of corruption and self-interest.

The situation of poor working conditions in China is the result of the complicity of American hubris and bad decisions by policymakers and their think-tanks under the instigation of Wall Street to solve the problem the easy way. When the cost of production in America became unbearable for American firms to compete, the buzzwords of "globalization", "outsourcing" and "consumer-is-king" created by Wall Street became a mirage of easy fix for many American companies to take advantage of low labour cost in Third-world countries. American consumers wanted more of everything and the obsession of having them cheap or free but are not willing to give up their excesses and be productive. America also misused it strong currency to manipulate the currency market and to force other countries to dance to its tune.

Companies are also the victims of political inaction to create a conducive environment for orderly competition. From the time of the Vietnam war to the present, foreign policy has become the preeminent preoccupation to the detriment of domestic policy. Trillions of dollars, resources and energy were squandered on foreign adventures in order to burnish the reputations of weak leaders.

The only thing Americans are good at nowadays is to play the envy-and-blame game. Apple is envied because it is successful and therefore it must be the scapegoat of all of America's problems. However much Apple is able to do to alleviate the situation, the fact remains that Apple is subject to the laws and pleasure of another sovereign country. Apple cannot dictate every thing that is happening in another country; then it would smack of gunboat diplomacy.

America is broken. It has reached the stage of the law of diminishing returns whereby the more "freedom" that is applied the more injurious it would be for the body politic. It needs a benevolent dictator in the like of Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew to put things right again.
post #167 of 181
So we have now exported millions of American manufacturing jobs to China. Millions of Americans are now unemployed. Almost 50 million Americans are on food stamps. 47% of Americans don't pay taxes. A huge loss to our economy. Our housing industry is down the toilet and on and on.

.... and the New York Times is so incredibly worried about the working conditions in China. What planet is the NYT on?

How about focusing on the jobs and working conditions that we need here now and not on the folks in China that have taken all of our jobs. Do we really want to improve the working conditions of the people that now own our jobs in China. In frigging China? Are we living on the planet Bizarre? I'd be laughing my head off if this wasn't too sad.
post #168 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxx View Post

So we have now exported millions of American manufacturing jobs to China. Millions of Americans are now unemployed. Almost 50 million Americans are on food stamps. 47% of Americans don't pay taxes. A huge loss to our economy. Our housing industry is down the toilet and on and on.

.... and the New York Times is so incredibly worried about the working conditions in China. What planet is the NYT on?

How about focusing on the jobs and working conditions that we need here now and not on the folks in China that have taken all of our jobs. Do we really want to improve the working conditions of the people that now own our jobs in China. In frigging China? Are we living on the planet Bizarre? I'd be laughing my head off if this wasn't too sad.

Wow...this from someone who obviously does not understand how capitalism works in the world. Companies are in business to make money...they are not in business to provide jobs for needy Americans. 95% of the unemployed Americans that you are speaking of would be offended and refuse Apple for the pay or conditions that are provided for workers in China...however positive these conditions may be in that country.

What America needs to do more of if they want jobs to return, is to cater to big business and corporations. Many would see this as utterly abhorrent, but this is exactly what is needed. As someone who runs a business in the US state with the highest minimum wage in the nation (over $9/hr and counting). I see first hand how my business suffers. Again, businesses in general are not around to care for employees or provide jobs, they are there to make money. Some may argue the point, but they would be wrong. I still care about my employees, but if they want to keep their jobs, I need to be successful first. Being hamstrung by the state or federal government doesn't help in this regard.

Speaking to the original article, Apple indirectly employs hundreds of thousands of workers all over the world. To say that they are directly responsible for each and every worker harm or indiscretion is utterly false just as Tim Cook has mentioned. It's like blaming the mayor of a city of 450,000 people when someone gets shot, or decides to commit suicide. It doesn't make sense. Do they have a direct responsibility to these workers? Yes. Are they directly responsible for these workers? I would say no.
post #169 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudit View Post

Apple indirectly employs hundreds of thousands of workers all over the world. To say that they are directly responsible for each and every worker harm or indiscretion is utterly false

Likely, that is why nobody says that they are directly responsible for each and every worker harm.

HTH.
post #170 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post

Likely, that is why nobody says that they are directly responsible for each and every worker harm.

HTH.

Funny...regardless, I think you understand my point. We've all read the articles. Based on the number of workers that are employed, the number of newsworthy worker related items is incredibly small.
post #171 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudit View Post

Funny...regardless, I think you understand my point. We've all read the articles. Based on the number of workers that are employed, the number of newsworthy worker related items is incredibly small.

If a Foxconn worker assembles the the flapping mechanism on a butterfly toy in China does that affect the Weather app on the iPhone?

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

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post #172 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter View Post

Professional.
Assertive.
Eloquent.
Direct.
Open.
Jobs.

While I read through Tim's email....those are the words that came to mind.

As a consumer and shareholder I am more than happy with Tim's statement and his style of handling the hubbub. Very Apple and very Jobs-like, which is why I saved it for the last word in my list.

No, Apple has a lot of power to make changes if they had really wanted to. It won't be until now, when there are eyes upon Apple watching its moves, that true action will be taken. Tim Cook's words ring very hollow to me.
post #173 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

Exactly. Somewhere towards the latter condition is a threshold that could be regarded as exploitation, but where should Apple (and all the other companies) try to drive the balance? Presumably not all the way to absolute happiness, as that doesn't exist in factories anywhere (does it?). On par with Western factories? Hard to figure where that lies given the huge discrepancies in culture and economy.

It would be difficult to find the right goal but they can assess it by the lowest standard of treatment they'd accept themselves. Would Tim share a dorm with Phil, Scott, Randy and 4 others in bunk beds for the entirety of their working week and only make enough to pay for lodgings and food as well as only see their families for very short periods of time?

http://www.jordanpouille.com/2010/12...ers-christmas/
http://www.idownloadblog.com/2010/11...phone-factory/

Apple made $13b profit last quarter. The following 5 Star hotel cost $17m to build in 15 days with 360 rooms:

http://www.cnngo.com/shanghai/play/t...0-hours-458199

Say they divide a standard size hotel room by three. This means all 500,000 of Foxconn's workers would fit into 463 of these hotels costing under $8b with a room each. I am aware that poor working conditions in other factories contribute to the cost of the building and there are running costs among other things but the point is that they can make direct contributions to improved living conditions rather than just setting requirements for the employers, even if it's offered as an incentive. If you do a certain amount of work, you can be upgraded from a dorm to a hotel. They can pay each worker a percentage of the profit of the machines they helped assemble beyond their hourly wage.

Apple's own requirements in their policy make it sound like they have done a great deal to prevent worker abuse so they probably deserve the least criticism of any manufacturer. Hopefully they can make a big difference in leading by example.

"It is by experiencing happiness that you live your life and when you experience the kind of pure happiness that is an end in itselfthe kind that makes you think: This is worth living forwhat you are greeting and affirming in emotional terms is the metaphysical fact that life is an end in itself."

^ that's a minimum standard of life we should all aim for. When a young person finds it better to jump off a building than continue to live, that standard hasn't been met. Installing a net doesn't meet that standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta

On what basis should Apple be forced to grade by U.S. standards? What if Apple's HQ were in Shanghai and they had Apple Stores in the U.S. Should they be able to pay the employees according to China standards? 70 hours a week for $20 a week? Or, even more to the point, work week is lower in Europe than in the U.S. Should Apple be able to force people to work U.S. hours in Europe because it's an American company? That doesn't make any more sense than expecting Apple to use U.S. standards in China.

That's a fair point and there certainly will be differences between regions that there's little need to change but the difference between regions must have limits otherwise human beings are being valued differently based on their nationality and the worst jobs migrate to the poorest people.

The example of Apple's HQ being in China is one where you'd expect the abuses wouldn't exist to begin with. As you rightly point out, there's no absolute standard as far as things like wages go, it's relative to the environment but there are absolute standards for minimum quality of life.
post #174 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

It would be difficult to find the right goal but they can assess it by the lowest standard of treatment they'd accept themselves. Would Tim share a dorm with Phil, Scott, Randy and 4 others in bunk beds for the entirety of their working week and only make enough to pay for lodgings and food as well as only see their families for very short periods of time?

http://www.jordanpouille.com/2010/12...ers-christmas/
http://www.idownloadblog.com/2010/11...phone-factory/

Apple made $13b profit last quarter. The following 5 Star hotel cost $17m to build in 15 days with 360 rooms:

http://www.cnngo.com/shanghai/play/t...0-hours-458199

Say they divide a standard size hotel room by three. This means all 500,000 of Foxconn's workers would fit into 463 of these hotels costing under $8b with a room each. I am aware that poor working conditions in other factories contribute to the cost of the building and there are running costs among other things but the point is that they can make direct contributions to improved living conditions rather than just setting requirements for the employers, even if it's offered as an incentive. If you do a certain amount of work, you can be upgraded from a dorm to a hotel. They can pay each worker a percentage of the profit of the machines they helped assemble beyond their hourly wage.

Apple's own requirements in their policy make it sound like they have done a great deal to prevent worker abuse so they probably deserve the least criticism of any manufacturer. Hopefully they can make a big difference in leading by example.

"It is by experiencing happiness that you live your life and when you experience the kind of pure happiness that is an end in itself—the kind that makes you think: “This is worth living for”—what you are greeting and affirming in emotional terms is the metaphysical fact that life is an end in itself."

^ that's a minimum standard of life we should all aim for. When a young person finds it better to jump off a building than continue to live, that standard hasn't been met. Installing a net doesn't meet that standard.



That's a fair point and there certainly will be differences between regions that there's little need to change but the difference between regions must have limits otherwise human beings are being valued differently based on their nationality and the worst jobs migrate to the poorest people.

The example of Apple's HQ being in China is one where you'd expect the abuses wouldn't exist to begin with. As you rightly point out, there's no absolute standard as far as things like wages go, it's relative to the environment but there are absolute standards for minimum quality of life.

If Apple's headquarters were in China, the abuses would likely be worse as there would have been no requirement to voluntarily bring them to light in the first place.

Now that Apple has been singled out for this treatment an opening exists for it's competitors to used this perceived difference to promote their own products by presenting the conditions under which their products are made.

The silence is deafening.
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post #175 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

If Apple's headquarters were in China, the abuses would likely be worse as there would have been no requirement to voluntarily bring them to light in the first place.

Now that Apple has been singled out for this treatment an opening exists for it's competitors to used this perceived difference to promote their own products by presenting the conditions under which their products are made.

The silence is deafening.

Reminds me of grade school when you sat quietly with your head down hoping the teacher wouldn't pick you for the next question.
na na na na na...
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na na na na na...
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post #176 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

If Apple's headquarters were in China, the abuses would likely be worse as there would have been no requirement to voluntarily bring them to light in the first place.

Now that Apple has been singled out for this treatment an opening exists for it's competitors to used this perceived difference to promote their own products by presenting the conditions under which their products are made.

The silence is deafening.

I think this would be a mistake. Apple is singled out because they have such a dominate and influential mindshare but others using Foxconn and other manufacturers in China are not any better and much likely worse. I think it would end up bringing unwanted attention to those that spoke up. I'm guessing they will be self-effacing in this matter.

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

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post #177 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

It would be difficult to find the right goal but they can assess it by the lowest standard of treatment they'd accept themselves. Would Tim share a dorm with Phil, Scott, Randy and 4 others in bunk beds for the entirety of their working week and only make enough to pay for lodgings and food as well as only see their families for very short periods of time?

Maybe something like that, but I somehow doubt that Tim's minimum requirements would represent a realistic target for Apple to provide for Foxconn workers.
post #178 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

It is an acronym, usually spelled with capitol letters to demonstrate that, helps the slow people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aka

Aside from the earlier criticisms of this post, it should be spelled "capital letters" - not "capitol letters."

I admit to being a Fanatical Moderate. I Disdain the Inane. Vyizderzominymororzizazizdenderizorziz?

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post #179 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

If Apple's headquarters were in China, the abuses would likely be worse as there would have been no requirement to voluntarily bring them to light in the first place.

I don't think there's a requirement for Apple to be open about this, just media pressure, which they could have ignored just as many other manufacturers are doing. Cook was responsible for moving Apple's manufacturing over to China so he will take the criticism more personally:

"We will continue to dig deeper, and we will undoubtedly find more issues," Cook said. "What we will not do - and never have done - is stand still or turn a blind eye to problems in our supply chain. On this you have my word."

He seems genuine enough about it. There are so many employees at these factories that controlling the conditions for every employee is a monumental task.

It should however be easy enough for each manufacturer to deal with the staff that works on their own products.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry

I somehow doubt that Tim's minimum requirements would represent a realistic target for Apple to provide for Foxconn workers.

Well, the poor guy does have to make do with a $1.9m home when all the other rich kids are splashing out on big mansions (that Ellison is such a showboater - nobody needs that many stairs):

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/01/...s-modest-home/

I don't expect Cook would judge the conditions based on what a CEO making over $1m per year would want but he will have started out in life with a lower income and there are some examples of scenarios that should never happen that Cook would be sensitive to:

http://blog.aflcio.org/2012/01/18/wh...hinas-foxconn/

Someone described assembling a part 5,200 times a day. The work is very repetitive leading to hand injuries and is obviously very mundane.

Like I say though, out of 500,000 employees, one story doesn't hold much weight, nor would 1,000. It could be workers that don't even touch Apple products.

As long as Apple monitors workers on their own products and ensures their conditions are adequate, that's all they can do. This includes making sure they are adequately paid relative to living costs in the area and that their working hours are fair.
post #180 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudit View Post

Wow...this from someone who obviously does not understand how capitalism works in the world. Companies are in business to make money...they are not in business to provide jobs for needy Americans. 95% of the unemployed Americans that you are speaking of would be offended and refuse Apple for the pay or conditions that are provided for workers in China...however positive these conditions may be in that country.

What America needs to do more of if they want jobs to return, is to cater to big business and corporations. Many would see this as utterly abhorrent, but this is exactly what is needed. As someone who runs a business in the US state with the highest minimum wage in the nation (over $9/hr and counting). I see first hand how my business suffers. Again, businesses in general are not around to care for employees or provide jobs, they are there to make money. Some may argue the point, but they would be wrong. I still care about my employees, but if they want to keep their jobs, I need to be successful first. Being hamstrung by the state or federal government doesn't help in this regard.

Speaking to the original article, Apple indirectly employs hundreds of thousands of workers all over the world. To say that they are directly responsible for each and every worker harm or indiscretion is utterly false just as Tim Cook has mentioned. It's like blaming the mayor of a city of 450,000 people when someone gets shot, or decides to commit suicide. It doesn't make sense. Do they have a direct responsibility to these workers? Yes. Are they directly responsible for these workers? I would say no.



I understand capitalism perfectly well.

I'm talking about people that are oh so concerned about the working conditions of Chinese workers. All I'm saying is that we should be more concerned about creating jobs and better working conditions for American workers.
post #181 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by redbarchetta View Post

More than you, I suspect.

Have you seen The Agony and Ecstasy of Steve Jobs? I have.

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/c...viewed_.3.html

It's a brilliant 2-hour show that retells first-hand accounts of what happens in the factories where the iPhone is produced, in even more vivid detail than the damning NY Times article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redbarchetta View Post

No. I also didn't listen to a "radio show;" I saw it in person. Please tell me which parts were made up, I'd love to know.



So, you saw things in person but without describing your own experience ask others to listen to a Radio Show which you did not listen yourself?

Mindblowing! Who needs to watch "The 3 Stooges" when people like you are around?
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